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Tuesday, May 06, 2014

SI.com - Mariano Rivera: I’d take Dustin Pedroia over Robinson Cano

First Joe Torre does it to A-Rod, and now this.  Woe betide all those who fail to live up to the burden of True Yankeedom:

Former New York Yankees closer Mariano Rivera writes in his new book that he would take Boston Red Sox second baseman Dustin Pedroia over former teammate Robinson Cano because “I don’t think Robby burns to be the best.”

In Rivera’s new book, The Closer, being released Tuesday, he also writes that no one plays harder or wants to win more than Pedroia. [...]

“[Cano] has so much talent I don’t know where to start… There is no doubt that he is a Hall-of-Fame caliber (player). It’s just a question of whether he finds the drive you need to get there. I don’t think Robby burns to be the best… You don’t see that red-hot passion in him that you see in most elite players,” Rivera says of Cano, according to excepts published in the New York Daily News.

“If I have to win one game, I’d have a hard time taking anybody over Dustin Pedroia as my second baseman,” Rivera said.

Depressoteric feels Royally blue these days Posted: May 06, 2014 at 11:54 AM | 83 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: boston red sox, new york yankees, seattle mariners

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   1. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 06, 2014 at 12:57 PM (#4701211)
Mariano Rivera: I’d take Dustin Pedroia over Robinson Cano


Robinson Cano: I don't care.
   2. Nasty Nate Posted: May 06, 2014 at 01:00 PM (#4701215)
Robinson Cano: I don't care.


projection
   3. Ulysses S. Fairsmith Posted: May 06, 2014 at 01:22 PM (#4701232)
Phil Coke shows a lot more passion than Rivera ever did.
   4. Depressoteric feels Royally blue these days Posted: May 06, 2014 at 01:49 PM (#4701261)
Have to say I can't quite believe I'm seeing this come from Mariano Rivera of all people.
   5. gehrig97 Posted: May 06, 2014 at 01:52 PM (#4701263)
As far as "rips" go, this isn't exactly "A-Fraud." This is essentially what the baseball world has said about Cano for the last 9 years.
   6. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: May 06, 2014 at 01:56 PM (#4701268)
As far as "rips" go, this isn't exactly "A-Fraud." This is essentially what the baseball world has said about Cano for the last 9 years.


That was my read too. Given that it's coming from Mariano who has never really said much publicly it's a bit more interesting but it's a pretty mild criticism.
   7. SG Posted: May 06, 2014 at 02:07 PM (#4701274)
Would you rather have a guy who burns with passion and missed 113 games from 2010-2013, or one who doesn't but missed 8.

And I don't read this as a rip. Rivera's still highly complimentary of Cano, and Pedroia is a great player.
   8. Jeltzandini Posted: May 06, 2014 at 02:12 PM (#4701278)
Cano was the regular Yankee 2B and Rivera's teammate for nine years. During that time he was better than Pedroia, by both traditional and saber numbers. Rivera is saying that there's a character/drive/grittiness difference that more than makes up that performance difference. It's worded mildly, but it's strong criticism. No one would blink if he said he'd take Cano, and no one would blink if he didn't bring up the comparison at all.

   9. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: May 06, 2014 at 02:15 PM (#4701281)
During that time he was better than Pedroia, by both traditional and saber numbers.


In total, not on a per-game basis (at least by WAR, if you're into that sort of thing).

And I didn't see it as a rip either. It is very complimentary of Pedroia.
   10. madvillain Posted: May 06, 2014 at 02:16 PM (#4701283)
As far as "rips" go, this isn't exactly "A-Fraud." This is essentially what the baseball world has said about Cano for the last 9 years.


Granting you some fictional "baseball world" in which this is true...

Ok, he doesn't "burn to win" in all the stupid obvious ways like diving headfirst into first base, running routine grounders out, and crashing into outfield walls. All of which lead to injuries, and in general, are the sort of "false hustle" fans love and smart FOs cant stand because it leads to injuries and has marginal benefit, at best, relative to the injury risk.

This isn't low A ball or the junior college circuit. There is no scout in the stands saying "that Cano could really be a MLB stud if he just hustled to first a bit more".

Cano is an established MLB superstar. Him missing games isn't what anyone needs. So the guy keeps himself in spectacular shape and realizes it's better to lose a few battles (beating out a few ground balls) then lose the war (going on the DL for an extended period).

He's almost comically under appreciated in national and NYC circles but you know it's Robinson laughing (and jogging, amirite!) all the way to the bank, and HOF.
   11. JRVJ Posted: May 06, 2014 at 02:16 PM (#4701284)
Chase Utley is slightly offended at not being taken into account (though Mariano seldom saw Utley, so there is that).

I think this was a polite way of saying, "¡Cano, chucha de tu madre, mueve el culo y no estés hueveando en segunda!".

(Those of you don't speak Panamanian Spanish, let's summarize it as " Cano, could you stop lollygagging at second?").
   12. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: May 06, 2014 at 02:28 PM (#4701301)
Being compared unfavorably to Pedroia going forward is neither a particular insult nor an argumentative point, since Cano's OPS drops about a hundred points going from the current Yankee Stadium to Safeco, leaving him about sixty points below Pedroia's at Fenway. You also have to account for the much greater protection in the Red Sox lineup compared to that of Seattle's.

From a money standpoint, Cano was smart to walk, but from the POV of future productivity, he probably made a bad move.
   13. valuearbitrageur Posted: May 06, 2014 at 02:47 PM (#4701320)
During that time he was better than Pedroia, by both traditional and saber numbers.


In total, not on a per-game basis (at least by WAR, if you're into that sort of thing).


2008-2013
Ave Games per Year 
Pedroia 141
Cano    160 


Both are great, I like the midget red-ass as much as I like Cano. But it's funny when people rip Cano for doing the thing that gives him so much excess value.
   14. Publius Publicola Posted: May 06, 2014 at 02:51 PM (#4701323)
Andy? Yoohoo, Andy. Thread calling.

You also have to account for the much greater protection in the Red Sox lineup compared to that of Seattle's.


And the lack of hustle. Don't forget that.

Oh, the stolen bases. Include that too.

Oh, and the defense. That makes a difference as well.

And leadership. I think that needs to be included, even if it's hard to measure.

And strikouts, y'all. Don't forget them K's.



   15. SG Posted: May 06, 2014 at 03:03 PM (#4701347)
And all the games you miss by getting injured by going all out all the time y'all.
   16. Publius Publicola Posted: May 06, 2014 at 03:14 PM (#4701367)
I love how in Yankee bizarro world, hustle has become a demerit.

It's like the Republicans with solar energy.
   17. SG Posted: May 06, 2014 at 03:20 PM (#4701380)
Cano is a Mariner now, so it's actually Mariner bizarro world.
   18. Pat Rapper's Delight Posted: May 06, 2014 at 03:27 PM (#4701390)
Rivera probably hasn't even cataloged all his retirement gifts yet but is already chasing former teammates off his lawn. Wouldn't it be great if a guy who said nothing of note during his career suddenly went all Bob Feller on us in retirement?
   19. Alex meets the threshold for granular review Posted: May 06, 2014 at 03:30 PM (#4701399)
And the lack of hustle. Don't forget that.


Already reflected in performance measures. And games played, of course.

Oh, the stolen bases. Include that too.


121/33, isn't that like barely over the break-even point? Cano doesn't make enough attempts to have a significant demerit to his value. Tiny plus for Pedroia.

Oh, and the defense. That makes a difference as well.


Sure. This one is valid.

And leadership. I think that needs to be included, even if it's hard to measure.


"Oh, NEXT!"

And strikouts, y'all. Don't forget them K's.


Outs are outs. Already measured in performance. At least go for GIDPs or something (though for such a hustler, the fact that Pedroia had 24 GIDPs last year is pretty LOL).

Also, I hate the Yankees and the Red Sox both so I have no dog in this hunt.
   20. JE (Jason) Posted: May 06, 2014 at 03:36 PM (#4701411)
As far as "rips" go, this isn't exactly "A-Fraud." This is essentially what the baseball world has said about Cano for the last 9 years.

OTOH, there's no way in hell that this stuff finds its way into Rivera's book if Cano re-signs with the Yankees. No ####### way.
   21. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq. Posted: May 06, 2014 at 03:38 PM (#4701416)
So would I. Pedroia's got a better contract.
   22. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: May 06, 2014 at 03:39 PM (#4701417)
Wouldn't it be great if a guy who said nothing of note during his career suddenly went all Bob Feller on us in retirement?


I think there is a fairly high likelihood of this. As I understand Mariano is a pretty religious guy and that tends to come with a pretty strict moral code. Mariano also can add being incredibly well respected, loyal and the whole "best ever at his position" thing going for him so he's got the platform to speak up. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Mariano became the "right way" cop now that he is retired.
   23. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: May 06, 2014 at 03:48 PM (#4701421)
I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Mariano became the "right way" cop now that he is retired.


I would. Once the book tour is done (and keep in mind, this was written in the book, not spouted off to some talk radio chap), I don't think we'll hear all that much from him at all. I'd be surprised if he got all loosey Goosey with the rantings.
   24. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: May 06, 2014 at 03:52 PM (#4701431)
I'd still rather read a book on pitching, and other random MLB related remarks from Greg Maddux. Though, a Rivera book is likely more interesting than most player autobiographies.
   25. Harry Balsagne, anti-Centaur hate crime division Posted: May 06, 2014 at 03:52 PM (#4701432)
Just read this same thing over on HardballTalk. The way Calcaterra presents the quotes it sounds like the statement was from two separate thoughts, jumbled together cheekily by SI.

From CC:


First, his thoughts on Cano, excerpted by the New York Daily News:

“This guy has so much talent I don’t know where to start . . . There is no doubt that he is a Hall of Fame caliber (player). It’s just a question of whether he finds the drive you need to get there. I don’t think Robby burns to be the best … You don’t see that red-hot passion in him that you see in most elite players.”

Then, on Dustin Pedroia:

“Nobody plays harder, gives more, wants to win more. He comes at you hard for 27 outs. It’s a special thing to see. If I have to win one game, I’d have a hard time taking anybody over Dustin Pedroia as my second baseman.”


So it's not quite "I'd take Pedroia over Cano". I realize the implication is there, but SI is (unsurprisingly) presenting it in a slightly tastier way.
   26. Publius Publicola Posted: May 06, 2014 at 04:14 PM (#4701460)
Outs are outs.


No they aren't. You can't move a man from 2nd to 3rd on a strikeout like you can on a grounder to the right side.
   27. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: May 06, 2014 at 04:22 PM (#4701469)
Also, I hate the Yankees and the Red Sox both so I have no dog in this hunt.


But you better believe Kevin does.
   28. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 06, 2014 at 04:32 PM (#4701479)
I would. Once the book tour is done (and keep in mind, this was written in the book, not spouted off to some talk radio chap), I don't think we'll hear all that much from him at all. I'd be surprised if he got all loosey Goosey with the rantings.


Sure we won't hear from him after this. Please. "Mariano" has such an incredible ego and is so full of himself that he laps Gossage several times over.
   29. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 06, 2014 at 04:34 PM (#4701481)
Cano is better at offense and durability; Pedroia is better at defense and at getting injured.

I suspect Cano grades out higher on WAR but I haven't looked.
   30. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq. Posted: May 06, 2014 at 04:43 PM (#4701488)
More honest headline: "Mariano Rivera: Robinson Cano could be better than he is; Dustin Pedroia is as good as anyone at Second Base"
   31. Publius Publicola Posted: May 06, 2014 at 04:44 PM (#4701490)
I suspect Cano grades out higher on WAR but I haven't looked.


Then you should. Pedroia grades out higher.

And, Pineda goes on the DL today. It seems to me that trade is looking more and more as a swap of one lemon for another.
   32. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 06, 2014 at 04:50 PM (#4701494)
Here's ESPN's description of the Pineda injury. Could this be loosely described as a shoulder problem, or no?

ANAHEIM, Calif. -- The New York Yankees placed right-hander Michael Pineda on the 15-day disabled list Tuesday with a strained back muscle and reinstated infielder Brendan Ryan, who had yet to play this season due to a cervical spine injury.

Michael Pineda, who was reinstated Tuesday after serving his 10-game suspension for using pine tar, will miss another 3-4 weeks with a strained back muscle.

While under suspension, Pineda experienced soreness in the right side of his back while pitching in a simulated game, an injury that was diagnosed via MRI as a Grade 1 strain of the teres major muscle. He is expected to be out approximately 3 to 4 weeks.

   33. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 06, 2014 at 04:52 PM (#4701495)
And, Pineda goes on the DL today. It seems to me that trade is looking more and more as a swap of one lemon for another.


I'm still betting on Montero, for the reason I initially bet on him: pitchers are subject to injury moreso than hitters. And Pineda's shoulder problems (regardless of what this latest injury issue is) are an example of why.

Montero has a .900 OPS in AAA, by the way.
   34. Davo's Favorite Tacos Are Moose Tacos Posted: May 06, 2014 at 04:53 PM (#4701496)
I'd take Brian Dozier over both of them!
   35. Depressoteric feels Royally blue these days Posted: May 06, 2014 at 04:54 PM (#4701500)
I'm still betting on Montero
Believe me, you're pretty much the only one at this point.

If Jesus Montero ever returns to the Major Leagues, it won't be as a Seattle Mariner, that's for sure.
   36. The_Ex Posted: May 06, 2014 at 05:08 PM (#4701509)
Rivera is trying to market a book. To get press you need some controversial comments. A lot more people know about Rivera's book today than knew about it yesterday.

Mission accomplished.
   37. Jim Wisinski Posted: May 06, 2014 at 05:08 PM (#4701510)
Here's ESPN's description of the Pineda injury. Could this be loosely described as a shoulder problem, or no?


Yes. Brief research says that the teres major muscle attaches to the humerus (upper arm) and one description of its action is "Adducts, medially rotates, and extends arm at shoulder".
   38. rconn23 Posted: May 06, 2014 at 05:10 PM (#4701513)

"Then you should. Pedroia grades out higher."

Career WAR? Baseball Reference Cano 45.5, Pedroia 39.4. Fangraphs: Cano 31.1 Pedroia 29.9
   39. KronicFatigue Posted: May 06, 2014 at 05:16 PM (#4701519)
Rivera is trying to market a book. To get press you need some controversial comments. A lot more people know about Rivera's book today than knew about it yesterday.

Mission accomplished.


How much money do athletes make on these kinds of books?
   40. SG Posted: May 06, 2014 at 05:17 PM (#4701523)
A .900 OPS in the PCL isn't all that impressive.
   41. Davo's Favorite Tacos Are Moose Tacos Posted: May 06, 2014 at 05:21 PM (#4701526)
A 1900 OPS in the PCL isn't that impressive. They actually play slow pitch softball there.
   42. SG Posted: May 06, 2014 at 05:24 PM (#4701527)
Montero's MLE for 2014 in Safeco translates to .229/.286/.455. Perhaps he makes up for that with defense and base running though.
   43. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 06, 2014 at 05:27 PM (#4701531)
Montero's MLE for 2014 in Safeco translates to .229/.286/.455. Perhaps he makes up for that with defense and base running though.


It's only a month, but that would represent a power increase for Montero over his major league performance, with more room for improvement at age 24.

The real problem is that he's no longer a C.
   44. Pat Rapper's Delight Posted: May 06, 2014 at 05:28 PM (#4701532)
You can't move a man from 2nd to 3rd on a strikeout like you can on a grounder to the right side.

Spoken like someone who was spared the indignity of Mike Lamb's one and (thankfully) only career start behind the plate.

I have never seen someone look so out of place in the field, and Lord knows the Rangers have tested my senses over the years with the likes of Pete Incaviglia, Center Fielder, and Kevin Reimer, Outfielder.
   45. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: May 06, 2014 at 05:34 PM (#4701538)
"Then you should. Pedroia grades out higher."

Career WAR? Baseball Reference Cano 45.5, Pedroia 39.4. Fangraphs: Cano 31.1 Pedroia 29.9


I get 35.1 Fangraphs WAR for Pedroia from Fangraphs (37.4 for Cano)

Pedroia gets close on defense, both systems givce Cano a healthy edge with the bat

Pedroia best 3 by WAR (BBREF): 7.9, 6.9, 6.6
Cano: 8.4, 8.1, 7.6

2011 to date, 2Bs by WAR:
Cano: 22.1
Pedroia: 20.5
Zobrist: 20.3


   46. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: May 06, 2014 at 06:06 PM (#4701563)
Again the question must be asked: WAR, what is it good for?
   47. Darren Posted: May 06, 2014 at 06:18 PM (#4701576)
Cano's been adding to his lead for a while, but Pedroia is a year younger, so he's been ahead on the "WAR through age x" comparisons. Cano looks like the better bet to age well, that's for sure.

I usually hate the outrage over such things, but I think it's pretty clear that this is a controversial statement by Rivera. Cano's his teammate and he's just as good as Pedroia--usually that's a situation where a player will ALWAYS be biased in favor of the guy on his side. Rivera comes very close to questioning Cano's heart, and certainly questions his desire.

For comparison's sake, can you imagine someone on the circa 2000 Red Sox picking Jeter over Nomar? Or someone on the 1940s Yankees taking Williams over DiMaggio?
   48. JJ1986 Posted: May 06, 2014 at 06:25 PM (#4701581)
Kevin meant postseason-WAR-compiled-in-seasons-where-the-player's-team-won-the-World-Series.
   49. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: May 06, 2014 at 06:25 PM (#4701582)
but I think it's pretty clear that this is a controversial statement by Rivera. Cano's his teammate and he's just as good as Pedroia--usually that's a situation where a player will ALWAYS be biased in favor of the guy on his side.

I kind of wonder if Mariano has anything to say about his cousin Ruben...

Or someone on the 1940s Yankees taking Williams over DiMaggio?


Yes and no, it seems that Dimaggio was a rather prickly person to deal with (As was Williams) so I could see some Yankees picking Williams (in a secret ballot type situation) - but back then absolutely no one was gonna go on record about it.
   50. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 06, 2014 at 06:28 PM (#4701584)
Regardless, it seems there's no love lost between Cano and some of his former teammates.
   51. The Yankee Clapper Posted: May 06, 2014 at 07:27 PM (#4701621)
As #25 indicates, Rivera's actual words fall short of what the SI headline suggests. Cano's talent makes him the better player, IMHO, but a dose of Pedroia's fire wouldn't hurt him.
   52. Hank G. Posted: May 06, 2014 at 07:33 PM (#4701624)
Outs are outs.


No they aren't. You can't move a man from 2nd to 3rd on a strikeout like you can on a grounder to the right side.


You can’t ground into a double play with a man on first with a strikeout.
   53. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: May 06, 2014 at 07:42 PM (#4701628)
You can’t ground into a double play with a man on first with a strikeout.


Overall there's a very slight difference between how bad a K is and how bad another type of out is- generally speaking you'd really ONLY look to strikeout tendency if you're thinking of pinch hitting in a situation where a k would be really really really bad, or if comparing two batter with identical OBP/SLG and one Ks 50 times and other guy K's 150 times...
   54. Comic Strip Person Posted: May 06, 2014 at 08:28 PM (#4701646)
Wouldn't it be great if a guy who said nothing of note during his career suddenly went all Bob Feller on us in retirement?


That guy already exists. His name is Ryne Sandberg. I suppose the Hall of Fame has enough room for a position player morality cop and a pitcher morality cop.
   55. Random Transaction Generator Posted: May 06, 2014 at 08:34 PM (#4701652)
Ok, he doesn't "burn to win" in all the stupid obvious ways like diving headfirst into first base, running routine grounders out, and crashing into outfield walls.


I'd have to deduct points from a 2B that does this. He's either completely lost, or too aggressive and getting in his teammate's way.
   56. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: May 06, 2014 at 08:48 PM (#4701659)
Yes and no, it seems that Dimaggio was a rather prickly person to deal with (As was Williams)

Williams was only "prickly" with the media ( or "the papers" as it was called then). He was very gregarious with the general public (although intimidating). And his teammates loved him. I always got the NIMpression that Dimaggio's teammates were in awe of him, and he wanted it that way
   57. Golfing Great Mitch Cumstein Posted: May 06, 2014 at 08:58 PM (#4701667)
Wouldn't it be great if a guy who said nothing of note during his career suddenly went all Bob Feller on us in retirement?


Or he could turn out to be another Steve Carlton.
   58. Walt Davis Posted: May 06, 2014 at 09:22 PM (#4701681)
I'm sure Mo's just basing it on $/WAR calculations but he doesn't want to get labeled a statnerd so he dressed it up as hustle issues.
   59. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: May 06, 2014 at 10:11 PM (#4701724)
   60. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: May 06, 2014 at 10:31 PM (#4701739)
The WSJ review of this book confirmed what I suspected, this is as dull and boring as most other pro athlete autobiographies. Probably the most interesting thing I learned is how Mo asked Torre if he could go to his son's graduation (causing an absence of a couple games), Torre said no, and Mo, said ok, and told his son how he was sad. Doesn't sound very exciting.
   61. Walt Davis Posted: May 07, 2014 at 02:23 AM (#4701827)
Mo shoulda paid for all the kids and families to come to NY and had the ceremony at NYS.
   62. Walt Davis Posted: May 07, 2014 at 02:26 AM (#4701828)
Meh ... better joke ...

Missing his son's graduation is no problem for Mo ... 30 years from now, he'll just travel back in time like any cyborg would ... see his son's graduation and make sure Kate Upton never reproduces.
   63. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: May 07, 2014 at 06:58 AM (#4701844)
Yes and no, it seems that Dimaggio was a rather prickly person to deal with (As was Williams) so I could see some Yankees picking Williams (in a secret ballot type situation) - but back then absolutely no one was gonna go on record about it.

Of course if you were going to have applied Rivera's standards to that ancient debate, not a single player in baseball would have picked Williams over Dimaggio in their primes, not that many of them did anyway.
   64. Rob_Wood Posted: May 07, 2014 at 07:10 AM (#4701847)

On today's MLB Now show, one of the former athletes kept harping on how one team is better than another because of all their productive outs vs the other team's strikeouts. Brian Kenny just sat there and said nothing in response. The conversation went on for about five minutes and this one guy kept coming back to productive outs. It really was an eye-opener (as if we need more) about how little athletes really understand about how baseball games are won. And no, before anyone says it, it was not Harold Reynolds (or Joe Morgan - ha).

Why is Mariano coming out with a book? Doesn't he have enough money? I suppose all the proceeds go to one of his charities, but it kinda bothers me.
   65. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: May 07, 2014 at 07:29 AM (#4701848)
Please. "Mariano" has such an incredible ego and is so full of himself that he laps Gossage several times over.

An anecdotal rebuttal: my brother's mother-in-law worked for an airline for decades as the "handler" for the "important" passengers. The Yankees used this airline for road trips. Of the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of celebrities she's dealt with, she says that Rivera was by far the kindest and politest. He remembered things she had said about her family years earlier and asked about them. Maybe Mariano is full of himself, but he seems to be full of other people as well.
   66. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: May 07, 2014 at 07:35 AM (#4701851)
Why is Mariano coming out with a book? Doesn't he have enough money? I suppose all the proceeds go to one of his charities, but it kinda bothers me.

The worst part is that he's got a whole squadron of posses going around at gunpoint forcing people to buy his book, and even worse, at the full retail price. I'm planning on hiding under my pool table when the book tour hits DC.
   67. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: May 07, 2014 at 11:13 AM (#4702051)
Cano's been adding to his lead for a while, but Pedroia is a year younger, so he's been ahead on the "WAR through age x" comparisons.

Through age 29 it's Pedroia by 38.5 to 37.6

Post 1947, WAR by 2Bs, ages 26-29

1 Chase Utley 31.3
2 Rod Carew 27.7
3 Joe Morgan 27.6
4 Robinson Cano 26.7
5 Chuck Knoblauch 24.8
6 Dustin Pedroia 22.7
7 Ian Kinsler 21.7
8 Nellie Fox 20
9 Gil McDougald 19.9
10 Lou Whitaker 19.8

Ages 22-24:
1 Willie Randolph 15.7
2 Ryne Sandberg 15.3
3 Bobby Grich 15
4 Carlos Baerga 14.6
5 Roberto Alomar 14.6
6 Chuck Knoblauch 11.8
7 Robinson Cano 10.7
8 Paul Molitor 10.4
9 Dustin Pedroia 10.1
10 Lou Whitaker 10.1


Pedroia has a WAR by age 29 edge on Cano solely due to Cano's age 25 flameout (where he played at replacement level the entire year
   68. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 07, 2014 at 01:03 PM (#4702192)
It seems plausible, based on the gazillion bows Rivera has taken over the past year, that he retired so that he could Be Mariano.
   69. Publius Publicola Posted: May 07, 2014 at 01:11 PM (#4702202)
You can’t ground into a double play with a man on first with a strikeout.


And don't forget those GIDPs! Cano grounds into more of them y'all.
   70. Publius Publicola Posted: May 07, 2014 at 01:14 PM (#4702204)
Career WAR?


Can you be intellectually honest, please? WAR/Yr. Cano has nearly two full years more accumulation.
   71. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 07, 2014 at 01:15 PM (#4702207)
Can you be intellectually honest, please? WAR/Yr.


WAR/yr is fine. WAR/162 is not, because it excuses Pedroia's missed time.

EDIT: Although WAR/162 would be interesting in its own right. IF both players were healthy.... which one is better?
   72. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: May 07, 2014 at 02:03 PM (#4702277)
Although WAR/162 would be interesting in its own right. IF both players were healthy.... which one is better?


Pedroia 6.1, Cano 5.3

last 3 years (Well 3.15 years):

Cano 7.0
Pedroia 6.8

Last 5 years
Cano 6.8
Pedroia 6.6

Basically if you are going to look at WAR, Cano beats Pedroia both in total and on a per game basis- SINCE- 2008
Now obviously if you were discussing career value and what not, what Cano did in 2008 is relevant, if the question is who is better now, or who has been better the past 2,3,4, 5 years, the answer is Cano (but not by a wide margin)
   73. Publius Publicola Posted: May 07, 2014 at 02:21 PM (#4702303)
Why are you giving Cano a pass for 2008 but not giving Pedroia a pass for getting hurt?
   74. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: May 07, 2014 at 02:44 PM (#4702338)
Why are you giving Cano a pass for 2008 but not giving Pedroia a pass for getting hurt?


Don't ever change Kevin.

I've noted that Cano played all year and sucked in 2008 and harmed the Yankees, and as a result, he has less WAR/G than Pedroia and less WAR by age. Pedroia has never played that badly for such an extended period of time (which me thinks is a plus for Pedroia no?)

It's also relevant that it is now 2014, Cano has not coughed up another 2008 hairball and has (slightly) outplayed Pedroia since then, 2009 through May 2014. I know the latter fact discomfits you, and who knows, maybe if Pedroia WAS healthy that whole time he would have played not just more games, but even better in those games.

How do you want to parse it? I'm just as willing to go with either of these as the answer to the open ended question of "Who's better Cano or Pedroia":
A. "to date, for his career Pedroia has been the better player on a per game basis and through age X"
or
B. "Cano has outplayed Pedroia on both a per game and in total the last 3-5 years, as Pedroia's performance has been impacted by injuries"
   75. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: May 07, 2014 at 02:51 PM (#4702349)
Just to note, I have no dog in the Cano/Pedroia battle, I'm a life long Met fan, so I just want to leave Kevin with this:

Most WAR through age 29, active players (2bs and 3bs):

1 Adrian Beltre 41.2
2 David Wright 41.1
3 Dustin Pedroia 38.4
4 Robinson Cano 37.6
5 Evan Longoria 37.3
6 Eric Chavez 35.4
7 Ryan Zimmerman 34.2
8 Chase Utley 33.9
9 Ian Kinsler 27.7
10 Howie Kendrick 22.2


   76. Publius Publicola Posted: May 07, 2014 at 03:35 PM (#4702421)
2 David Wright 41.1
3 Dustin Pedroia 38.4


More intellectual dishonesty. Wright didn't go to college and so was promoted to the bigs when he was 21. Pedroia didn't get to the bigs until late in his age 22 year.

Prorate that per game, or per season? Let me do it for you:

Per game:

Wright- 0.0335
Pedroia-0.0376

Per year:

Wright- 4.28
Pedroia-4.37

the yearly data actually hurts Pedroia because he was a late season call-up in 06. Wright played 69 games his rookie year.

And who's got the MVP? Who's got the ringzzz? No matter how you slice it, Pedroia has been better.

Ha!
   77. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 07, 2014 at 04:32 PM (#4702500)
Don't ever change Kevin.


It's funny that this question boils down to RED SOX - YANKEES for him (and he's not alone; silly fans do that with players).

I'm a Red Sox fan but I couldn't care less which player is better. I'm more interested in the analysis and in whether the analysis is logical depending on the question asked.
   78. rconn23 Posted: May 07, 2014 at 05:05 PM (#4702536)
From Dave Cameron on the subject:

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/mo-picks-pedroia-over-cano-but-do-the-numbers-back-him-up-050714?cmpid=tsmtw:fscom:mlbonfox
   79. toratoratora Posted: May 07, 2014 at 05:35 PM (#4702563)
I always got the impression that Dimaggio's teammates were in awe of him, and he wanted it that way

Wasn't Dimaggio famous for being cold and aloof? I know Mantle for one disliked the way he was treated by The Clipper and went out of his way to treat young players differently when he was a star.
   80. Moeball Posted: May 08, 2014 at 06:49 PM (#4703103)
Wasn't Dimaggio famous for being cold and aloof? I know Mantle for one disliked the way he was treated by The Clipper and went out of his way to treat young players differently when he was a star.


Of course if you were going to have applied Rivera's standards to that ancient debate, not a single player in baseball would have picked Williams over Dimaggio in their primes, not that many of them did anyway.

Gotta go with Andy on this one, in terms of how the media viewed DiMaggio vs. Williams BITD. Based on what Rivera's referring to, if it is "hustle", most would have viewed Ted as the laggard since he often looked indifferent in the field.

Of course, BITD, they also didn't realize that Ted's offensive value from always being on base vastly outweighed DiMaggio's advantages in base running and fielding in terms of who actually did more to help his team score more runs than the opponents.
   81. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: May 08, 2014 at 07:06 PM (#4703108)
Gotta go with Andy on this one, in terms of how the media viewed DiMaggio vs. Williams BITD.

It wasn't just the media. At least one poll of players in the late 40's ranked the top 3 as Dimaggio, Musial and Williams. Of course Williams was universally rated the best hitter, but beyond that he was considered to be kind of a stiff.

Of course, BITD, they also didn't realize that Ted's offensive value from always being on base vastly outweighed DiMaggio's advantages in base running and fielding in terms of who actually did more to help his team score more runs than the opponents.

And BITD they also took the enormous home park differentials** a lot more seriously than some people apparently do today. It doesn't make up all the offensive difference between #9 and #5, and obviously we're talking about peak value and not career value, but it brings their true prime values a lot closer together than usually gets acknowledged around here.

**Which in turn don't adjust for the even further disadvantage that Dimaggio had in Yankee Stadium by being a right handed hitter. One of these years those Park Factors will learn to account for the 58 ft difference in that park's RF and LF power alleys, and adjust their numbers accordingly for RH and LH batters.
   82. Publius Publicola Posted: May 08, 2014 at 09:25 PM (#4703160)
Andy, OPS+ is park-adjusted. Even with the adjustments, Williams crushes DiMaggio.

And just to piss you off more, Yaz' numbers are comparable to DiMaggio's DiMaggio has more good years, but Yaz beats him in peak and longevity.
   83. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: May 12, 2014 at 02:43 PM (#4705224)
And just to piss you off more, Yaz' numbers are comparable to DiMaggio's DiMaggio has more good years, but Yaz beats him in peak and longevity.


Yaz top 6 by war (age in parens)
12.4 (27)
10.5 (28)
9.5 (30)
6.6 (23)
5.5 (29)
5.5 (33)

Joltin Joe
9.1 (26)
8.2 (22)
8.1 (24)
7.2 (25)
7.1 (33)
6.1 (27)

Joe of course spent his age 28, 29 and 30 years in the Military)

Yaz had an odd career, basically he had a good and long Rusty Staub/ Dwight Evans type career, with an inner-circle type HOF peak stuck inexplicably in the middle

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