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Saturday, August 25, 2012

Silverman: Blockbuster Complete

There are times when only the words of Inspector Gadget can capture the situation.  Wowzers.

Early this morning, the Red Sox and Dodgers concluded a blockbuster deal in which the Red Sox shipped four players – Adrian Gonzalez, Josh Beckett, Carl Crawford and Nick Punto – in exchange for a massive relief in salary as well as four minor-leaguers and first baseman James Loney, according to a Red Sox source.

The deal will be worth in excess of $275 million to the Red Sox including luxury tax savings and salaries for the remainder of this season and beyond. Over the next six years, the Dodgers will receive $12 million from the Red Sox, with the payments to begin next year.

Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: August 25, 2012 at 09:37 AM | 197 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dodgers, red sox, trades, transactions

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   101. Dan Posted: August 25, 2012 at 02:12 PM (#4217996)
I still can't believe this is real. I keep looking at twitter waiting for it to come undone. I'm not convinced until I see each three in Dodger blue.


According to Heyman, the Dodgers chartered a flight to bring Gonzalez, Beckett, and Punto to LA in time for tonight's game. They're already en route.
   102. bfan Posted: August 25, 2012 at 02:13 PM (#4217997)
"the winner is Carl Crawford. He had to get out of that stadium, if there is one stadium in baseball designed to counter all his value/skills, it's Fenway. He's going to go out and post 115+ ops+"

He is a lifetime 105+ player as a corner outfielder (where players are expected to hit). He is on the wrong side of 30. He isn't worth half his contract now, and the divergence will get dramatically bigger, every year. It was brilliant for the Red Sox to dump him. He is chum, but paid as if he were caviar.
   103. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 25, 2012 at 02:17 PM (#4217999)
this is fun stuff.
   104. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: August 25, 2012 at 02:23 PM (#4218004)
Isn't it? I am thrilled to near-tears. I hate it when it's obvious the team is going nowhere, and this is the first year in a long time that's been the case.
   105. asinwreck Posted: August 25, 2012 at 02:28 PM (#4218008)
I like that this got done during the waiver period.
   106. Dan Posted: August 25, 2012 at 02:30 PM (#4218011)
I posted this in the Sox Therapy thread about the deal, but I think it's a big enough point that it should be made here as well: with the new compensation system, only the top 10 draft picks are protected if you're trying to sign free agents who have had the qualify offer extended by their old teams. So if the Red Sox can tank enough in September to get a top 10 draft pick, they'll be in a position where they can sign as many high end free agents as they want while merely losing their 2nd round pick.
   107. Srul Itza Posted: August 25, 2012 at 02:41 PM (#4218023)
I'm still a proponent of the unprovable "if the clubhouse is a disaster it won't matter much who's on your team" idea.


Like the A's squads of the early 70's or the Yankee squads of the late 70's?
   108. jobu Posted: August 25, 2012 at 02:41 PM (#4218024)
James Loney--now that's the kind of guy you want playing first base. He's a real funeral attender.
   109. Srul Itza Posted: August 25, 2012 at 02:45 PM (#4218027)
I thought Selig still had to sign off on the deal. Has he done so yet?
   110. PreservedFish Posted: August 25, 2012 at 02:45 PM (#4218028)
Someone in this thread posited a 3 year, $45 million deal for Crawford if he were a free agent. I think he's a lot closer to Grady Sizemore's 1 year $5 million who knows? deal.
   111. Colin Posted: August 25, 2012 at 02:47 PM (#4218030)
MLBTradeRumors says that De La Rosa is included technically as a PTBNL, since the Blue Jays claimed him off waivers. This seems like a glaring loophole in waiver trading, has it been used before?
   112. frannyzoo Posted: August 25, 2012 at 02:50 PM (#4218032)
Looking at my BTF "account statistics," I joined up on May 4, 2004. Today is the most important day at BTF since I joined. Basically, the core of this site is Boston Red Sox, with enough generality to avoid SoSH status. That core has paradigmatically changed today (last night) now.

Yes, since my being here there's been a World Series Win. And another. But, as of today, the Red Sox are officially "rebuilding." Yankees/Red Sox is back to what it meant when Pumpsie Green was a Sox. We're pre-Bernie Carbo, in a sense, at this point. The trade is like a time machine. It will be interesting to see how this affects everything from ESPN ratings to BTF.
   113. asinwreck Posted: August 25, 2012 at 02:50 PM (#4218033)
@shredderpunto #dodgers doing it first class! (Photo of Gonzalez, Beckett, and Punto on the Dodgers' plane.)

Edit: Thanks to Lassus for catching my error (now fixed).
   114. Tom Nawrocki Posted: August 25, 2012 at 02:51 PM (#4218034)
De La Rosa seems like Franklin Morales part 2.
   115. robinred Posted: August 25, 2012 at 02:56 PM (#4218037)
OK, thanks for info on Crawford.

The Dodgers seem to be looking at buzz factor/LA eyeballs/bandwidth here as well:

Angels-have Trout, Weaver, and Pujols
Lakers-have Bryant, added Nash and Howard
Clippers-have Paul and Griffin, added Odom
Kings-won Stanley Cup
USC football-off probation, ranked #1 in preseason polls
UCLA basketball-had huge recruiting year, going back to renovated Pauley

So, even with no NFL team in LA, there is a lot going on in LA sports right now, but adding Victorino, Ramirez, Gonzalez, Beckett, and Crawford will keep people talking/writing Dodgers the rest of the way, particularly if they can win the NL West and the Angels miss postseason entirely.
   116. Lassus Posted: August 25, 2012 at 02:56 PM (#4218038)
asinwrek - you linked back here -

http://twitter.com/Shredderpunto/status/239433228858044416/photo/1
   117. PreservedFish Posted: August 25, 2012 at 02:58 PM (#4218042)
As a non-Sox fan, I find #112 totally bizarre.
   118. frannyzoo Posted: August 25, 2012 at 03:00 PM (#4218044)
Trust me, Preserved Fish, I'm not a Red Sox fan either.
   119. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: August 25, 2012 at 03:04 PM (#4218046)
#112 -- I dunno, that seems too cute by half. It's like saying the Yalta Conference was more
important than Operation Overlord.
   120. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: August 25, 2012 at 03:04 PM (#4218047)
Quick, someone murder Tommy Lasorda so we can see if Beckett goes to the funeral.
   121. Jose Molina wants a nickname like ARod Posted: August 25, 2012 at 03:09 PM (#4218049)
#112 is annoyingly moronic for two reasons:

1. There is no Red Sox core to BBTF.
2. Go look at the Pirates or current Astros for an example of a rebuilding team.
   122. caprules Posted: August 25, 2012 at 03:10 PM (#4218050)
I happened to have SportsCenter on for a bit this morning, and there was a piece covering a lot like what is in 115. They didn't include Greinke either. I have my biases as a Brewer fan, but it struck me as odd to leave his acquisition out.

Then I checked how he has done with the Angels, and saw the reason.
   123. robinred Posted: August 25, 2012 at 03:23 PM (#4218064)
Greinke


Greinke is pretty well-known, and has his hook, but he is not as big of a name locally/nationally as the others. Also, neither Greinke nor the team has done well since he was acquired, as you note. Jared Weaver is a SoCal guy. Lamar Odom is not a household name, but he is married to a Kardashian and has played most of his career in Los Angeles.

The guys the Dodgers got are not superfamous to casual fans, but they were all acquired from teams with high media profiles (even the Marlins were buzzy early in the season), so in that respect it is different than the Angels getting Greinke in a typical deadline deal.
   124. PJ Martinez Posted: August 25, 2012 at 03:23 PM (#4218065)
I'm a Red Sox fan and I find #112 totally baffling.
   125. phredbird Posted: August 25, 2012 at 03:37 PM (#4218081)
@ 113 -- those guys sure look happy.
   126. robinred Posted: August 25, 2012 at 03:37 PM (#4218082)
WRT to 112, I sort of get it, since there are more vocal Red Sox fans here than fans of any other team except maybe the Mets or the Yankees, but I don't see it affecting BTF at all. The kinds of guys who post here:

a) Mostly like the trade for Boston
b) Are generally very interested in stuff like WAR/$ and "market inefficiencies", so they will be more intrigued by the Red Sox than ever. We will see a lot of threads about how the Red Sox "leverage their new payroll flexibility" etc. Even if the Red Sox just suck next year, those guys will still talk about them all the time, and power to them.

I don't know how the more casual/talk radio side of the Boston fanbase will react to this; I would guess a mix of "Good riddance" and "They sold us out!"
   127. Mayor Blomberg Posted: August 25, 2012 at 03:43 PM (#4218084)
I do think there's a strong Sox core, going by traffic on ST and Sox chatter vs the paucity of activity on others. Yankee fans seem the second-largest contingent, but the chatter's all but dead and there's no equivalent to ST.

As for the rest of 112, I'm not sure what the point was.
   128. Swedish Chef Posted: August 25, 2012 at 03:46 PM (#4218087)
2. Go look at the Pirates or current Astros for an example of a rebuilding team.

The Astros have dynamited their team, it's still an open question if they are going to rebuild it.
   129. JJ1986 Posted: August 25, 2012 at 03:52 PM (#4218088)
WRT to 112, I sort of get it, since there are more vocal Red Sox fans here than fans of any other team except maybe the Mets or the Yankees, but I don't see it affecting BTF at all.


Yankees fans have been dwindling over the years and Mets fans have really thinned over the last two. I think the Sox have it clearly.
   130. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: August 25, 2012 at 03:58 PM (#4218091)
I don't think it will impact BTF at all. There is more than enough wide spread chatter here to offset any decline that may come from a lesser Sox team. I think if the Sox go through a decade long stretch of 70 win seasons that could have an impact but I doubt that is happening.

And even if it did, I think RobinRed's point is a good one. Those of us who are Sox fans are going to chatter endlessly about these guys no matter what, we're a bit twisted.
   131. Rafael Bellylard: A failure of the waist. Posted: August 25, 2012 at 04:15 PM (#4218094)
Post-trade, I do find the Red Sox more interesting, going forward. They've been a terribly hard team to like over the past year or so.
   132. Cowboy Popup Posted: August 25, 2012 at 04:23 PM (#4218103)
2013 should be a bridge year, where the Red Sox balance present and future goals with more of a tilt to the future, but they should not "punt" on a $170M budget with the core talent they still have

What core? They've got a legitimate star left (Pedroia) and he's coming off a down year and his second injury shortened year in the last three. Some guys who are capable of being stars but haven't been this year and are not locks to rebound (Ellsbury, Lester). They have some young guys who are good, but none scream frontline talent (Dubront, Buchholz, Middlebrooks). Their bullpen isn't anything special and obviously has some health issues. Salty is alright for a cheap catcher, but he also has a .285 OBP. That's not a core that's going to match up well with the Yanks or the Rays. Am I missing something?

   133. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: August 25, 2012 at 04:23 PM (#4218104)
I posted this in the Sox Therapy thread about the deal, but I think it's a big enough point that it should be made here as well: with the new compensation system, only the top 10 draft picks are protected if you're trying to sign free agents who have had the qualify offer extended by their old teams. So if the Red Sox can tank enough in September to get a top 10 draft pick, they'll be in a position where they can sign as many high end free agents as they want while merely losing their 2nd round pick.


Theoretically, they could lose their 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. In reality, I don't think we're going to see all that many qualifying offers made, since a team losing a FA only gains a sandwich pick.

   134. Greg Pope thinks the Cubs are reeking havoc Posted: August 25, 2012 at 04:37 PM (#4218111)
MLBTradeRumors says that De La Rosa is included technically as a PTBNL, since the Blue Jays claimed him off waivers. This seems like a glaring loophole in waiver trading, has it been used before?

It's not really a loophole. It just means that they won't get De La Rosa until after the end of the season. So if he was someone that the Dodgers needed this year, they may not have done the deal.

I think.
   135. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: August 25, 2012 at 05:28 PM (#4218130)
Looking at my BTF "account statistics," I joined up on May 4, 2004. Today is the most important day at BTF since I joined. Basically, the core of this site is Boston Red Sox, with enough generality to avoid SoSH status.
I just threw up in my mouth. If I thought that was remotely true, I'd stop coming here. Nothing against Sox fans, but mainstream media is already extremely BoSox-heavy. The last thing the world needs is another Sox-centric arena.
   136. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: August 25, 2012 at 05:30 PM (#4218131)
Your 2013 Out Of My Ass Red Sox, after a brief look at their organizational info and Cot's contracts:

C: Salty/Napoli platoon (Napoli FA 3/21)
1B: Napoli/Reynolds platoon (Reynolds FA 2/14)
2B: Laser Show
SS: Stephen Drew (FA, 2/18)
3B: WMB
RF: Justin Upton (Trade)
CF: Ellsbury
LF: Torii Hunter (FA, 2/18)
DH: Papi w/ Reynolds on days off.

Util OF: Sands/Sweeney
Util IF: Ciriaco/Iglesias

SP: King Felix (Trade)
SP: Zack Greinke (FA 5/100)
SP: Lester
SP: Buchholz
SP: Doubront
CL: Bailey
8th: Bard
7th: Aceves/Morales
LOOGY: Some Dude
LR: Lackey

Contract amounts are also pulled completely out of my ass. So are trades, In my CFBPS world the Sox landed Hernandez without giving up Boegarts.
   137. booond Posted: August 25, 2012 at 05:39 PM (#4218138)
Napoli will ask for almost double that. Reynolds and Hunter are better off on other teams. Upton means trading Xander and Barnes. If we can get Drew for 9 per we should go five years.

Napoli at 1B by himself, Lavarnway at C. Sands/Sweeney might handle one of the corners.

King Felix... is this the Onion?
   138. Tom Nawrocki Posted: August 25, 2012 at 05:40 PM (#4218139)
Do the Red Sox really have the trade chits to get both Felix Hernandez and Justin Upton? Upton, I guess, since there's always a good chance the Diamondbacks will do something dumb, like take Bailey and Ciriaco for him.
   139. DA Baracus is a "bloodthirsty fan of Atlanta." Posted: August 25, 2012 at 05:43 PM (#4218141)
RF: Justin Upton (Trade)
SP: King Felix (Trade)


Who are they going to give up to get these guys? Nothing but minor leaguers?
   140. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: August 25, 2012 at 05:58 PM (#4218153)
C: Salty/Napoli platoon (Napoli FA 3/21)
SS: Stephen Drew (FA, 2/18)
SP: Zack Greinke (FA 5/100)
Napoli's going to want at ~12 million and Drew's going to want a lot more than 2 years. And do you really want to be the team that gives Greinke $100 million?

SP: King Felix (Trade)
Nope.
   141. Dan Posted: August 25, 2012 at 06:08 PM (#4218162)
Reynolds sucks.
Napoli is okay but will cost more than that and isn't a great fit with Lavarnway around, there are better ways to spend that money.
Reynolds completely sucks.
Drew is questionable after his injury issues and also probably not signing that contract.
Justin Upton could happen, but I have no idea what Arizona expects in return at this point.
Torii Hunter would be a waste of money and is a terrible fit for this team.
The Mariners aren't trading Felix, I wish Red Sox fans would just shut the #### up about Felix Hernandez.
Greinke in this market for the money he's going to command? Iffy proposition.
Lackey is in the rotation. Deal with it.
   142. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: August 25, 2012 at 06:15 PM (#4218168)
Napoli might want 12m/year, but what are teams really going to give him? He's going to be a 31 year old with one excellent season under his belt, whose teams don't use him exclusively as a catcher, and coming off a good but not great season.

I also don't see Drew getting a long deal, but that's more of an open question. I'm guessing the A's don't pick up his 10m dollar option, and if I'm wrong on that then I'm clearly not understanding his market value.

Reynolds won't have that many suitors. He's the modern day Dave Kingman. He is only 28, so some team might want to make him their starter.

Greinke is probably not the best choice to spend 100m on. I don't think anyone is, this offseason. That's a guess at what it'd take to sign him, though, considering other recent pitchers deals. And at 5 years he'd only be 34 when the contract was over.

Felix, yeah. A boy can dream. The rotation in 2013 is likely to be Lester, Buchholz, Lackey, Doubront, Fill-In-Name-Here.

I don't think there's going to be much of a market for Torii Hunter, who remains a very useful ballplayer and who won't command a long contract. He's been a ~3 WAR player each year the last 3 years, and at short money makes a lot of sense for the Red Sox given the dearth of other options.
   143. McCoy Posted: August 25, 2012 at 06:26 PM (#4218172)
I thought BTF at its core was a bunch of libertarian lawyers.
   144. McCoy Posted: August 25, 2012 at 06:29 PM (#4218173)
Wow, Danny Glover and Neil Armstrong die on the same day. That's weird.
   145. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: August 25, 2012 at 06:29 PM (#4218174)
I don't think there's going to be much of a market for Torii Hunter, who remains a very useful ballplayer and who won't command a long contract. He's been a ~3 WAR player each year the last 3 years, and at short money makes a lot of sense for the Red Sox given the dearth of other options.

The parallels to Mike Cameron after 2009 are eerie.
   146. booond Posted: August 25, 2012 at 06:29 PM (#4218175)
I'd bet on Napoli but catchers with 1.000 OPS seasons, even one of them are rare. He makes sense as it gives the team enough flexibility with Lavarnway to have three catchers without making special room for three as Napoli plays 1B.

Reynolds is horrible even when he's at his best. He can't field or hit.

Drew is an SS who has had a couple .800 seasons and is still young. I can't see him not getting 4-5 years.

Hunter wouldn't bother me for a year or two.
   147. Cowboy Popup Posted: August 25, 2012 at 06:50 PM (#4218196)
Wow, Danny Glover and Neil Armstrong die on the same day. That's weird.

What's weird is that Danny Glover isn't dead, at least according to Google.
   148. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: August 25, 2012 at 07:03 PM (#4218204)
I thought BTF at its core was a bunch of libertarian lawyers.

Libertarian lawyers, sure, but they're also mostly Red Sox fans who love steroids and root for the Three True Outcomes, live in their momma's basement, get all their facts of life and sport from porno sites and BB-Reference, and think that the postseason is wildly overrated by unfair HoF voters who don't have a clue about what the game is really all about. Have I left anything out?
   149. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: August 25, 2012 at 07:08 PM (#4218205)
I'm a Red Sox fan and I find #112 totally baffling.


I think there's a pretty good chance that alcohol was involved.
   150. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: August 25, 2012 at 07:09 PM (#4218209)
What's weird is that Danny Glover isn't dead, at least according to Google.


What's weirder is that I thought he died a few weeks ago.
   151. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: August 25, 2012 at 07:10 PM (#4218210)
Have I left anything out?


The part about seat-rest positions on airplanes.

And Mike Crudale.
   152. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: August 25, 2012 at 07:10 PM (#4218211)
Do I provide my friends "Red Sox fan cover"?
   153. McCoy Posted: August 25, 2012 at 07:12 PM (#4218214)

What's weirder is that I thought he died a few weeks ago.


No that was Danny Aiello.
   154. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: August 25, 2012 at 07:17 PM (#4218218)
No that was Danny Aiello.


I didn't know he was dead, period, so that's not who I'm thinking of. Weird.

Clearly, Danny Glover did die a few weeks ago, but reality has changed since then, so none of the rest of you remember it & I only vaguely do.

Man, do I hate it when that happens.
   155. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 25, 2012 at 07:19 PM (#4218220)
Libertarian lawyers, sure, but they're also mostly Red Sox fans who love steroids and root for the Three True Outcomes, live in their momma's basement, get all their facts of life and sport from porno sites and BB-Reference, and think that the postseason is wildly overrated by unfair HoF voters who don't have a clue about what the game is really all about. Have I left anything out?

Pavement, Professional Wrestling & Video Games are also important to the lower Primates, or so I've heard. Such tastes have no doubt led to the profusion of BBTF advertisements for Asian Brides, Latin Ladies & bed bug remedies.
   156. The District Attorney Posted: August 25, 2012 at 07:26 PM (#4218225)
Dammit, Danny Glover was only a week away from retirement!
   157. frannyzoo Posted: August 25, 2012 at 07:27 PM (#4218226)
Gef: No, no alcohol involved. And no Red Sox mania. Just an observation, possibly wrong, but there ya go. We'll see.
   158. Commissioner Bud Black Beltre Hillman Posted: August 25, 2012 at 07:51 PM (#4218238)
Eh, #112 is a fair bit OTT, but I think I can see what it's getting at. Sox news generally gets a few more links and a lot more comments than most other teams, Sox Therapy is the most active team-specific blog, Sox chatters are relatively busy, and the site itself (existence/growth) has, perhaps entirely accidentally, roughly paralleled a great period for the Sox both on the field and in popularity.

But I don't think the site will change with the rebuild; if anything, it'll keep more Sox fans around than a couple years of boring stagnation. And I don't think the Sox are the heart of BTF. Sabremetrics doesn't quite do it either, but the thinking fan's baseball site works nicely. There's a lot of thinking about measuring performance/value, a lot of thinking about baseball history, a lot of well thought out jokes and references, and probably too much thinking about politics. And the diversity of allegiances really helps the discussion. It just so happens that there are a lot of thinking Red Sox fans.
   159. DA Baracus is a "bloodthirsty fan of Atlanta." Posted: August 25, 2012 at 07:52 PM (#4218240)
They always come in threes: Armstrong, Glover and the guy who killed Bin Laden.
   160. phredbird Posted: August 25, 2012 at 08:08 PM (#4218252)
glover and aiello are alive. armstrong, alas, is dead.

that's a lucky one for the editors at the LA times. they'd have a hard time deciding whether glover should get more ink and a better page one position than armstrong.

for the rest of the country its a slam dunk, armstrong is front page. but armstrong was never in a franchise that grossed as much as lethal weapon.
   161. Greg Pope thinks the Cubs are reeking havoc Posted: August 25, 2012 at 08:12 PM (#4218258)
Dammit, Danny Glover was only a week away from retirement!

So of course I had to look him up on Wikipedia. He's only 66. Which means that in Lethal Weapon, when he was a week away from retirement, he was 41. And the young whippersnapper he was partnered with was played by and actor who was 31. I did not know that.

I did know, however, that Sean Connery played Harrison Ford's father despite there being only a 12-year age difference, and that Lionel Jefferies played Dick Van Dyke's father despite being a year younger than him.
   162. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: August 25, 2012 at 08:14 PM (#4218259)
And Estelle Getty was/is younger than Bea Arthur/Rue McClanahan.
   163. The District Attorney Posted: August 25, 2012 at 08:15 PM (#4218260)
armstrong was never in a franchise that grossed as much as lethal weapon.
Now who's being naïve?
   164. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: August 25, 2012 at 08:38 PM (#4218274)
but armstrong was never in a franchise that grossed as much as lethal weapon.


Yeah, but the special effects of the moon landing hoax were amazing!
   165. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: August 25, 2012 at 08:47 PM (#4218282)
Has anyone heard from Ray?
   166. DA Baracus is a "bloodthirsty fan of Atlanta." Posted: August 25, 2012 at 09:05 PM (#4218290)
It's the weekend, IT won't be in until Monday.
   167. Cowboy Popup Posted: August 25, 2012 at 09:10 PM (#4218297)
Clearly, Danny Glover did die a few weeks ago, but reality has changed since then, so none of the rest of you remember it & I only vaguely do.

Oh ####, are you in 2Q12? That's rough man.
   168. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: August 25, 2012 at 09:13 PM (#4218300)
Alfredo Aceves has been suspended three games by the team for conduct detrimental to the team.


   169. Tuque Posted: August 25, 2012 at 09:24 PM (#4218303)
Home run Gonzalez!
   170. Tuque Posted: August 25, 2012 at 09:26 PM (#4218304)
I think my favorite thing about Adrian Gonzalez is that he's not James Loney.

I remain baffled as to why Loney kept his job as long as he did.
   171. robinred Posted: August 25, 2012 at 09:28 PM (#4218305)
3-run HR, too.
   172. Srul Itza Posted: August 25, 2012 at 09:29 PM (#4218306)
Home run Gonzalez!


3 Run shot. In his first at bat for the Dodgers.

I love it when a plan comes together.
   173. Rafael Bellylard: A failure of the waist. Posted: August 25, 2012 at 09:49 PM (#4218310)
...and that Lionel Jefferies played Dick Van Dyke's father despite being a year younger than him.


Same story for Yvonne DeCarlo and her dad, Al Lewis.
   174. McCoy Posted: August 25, 2012 at 09:59 PM (#4218314)
Eh, #112 is a fair bit OTT, but I think I can see what it's getting at. Sox news generally gets a few more links and a lot more comments than most other teams, Sox Therapy is the most active team-specific blog, Sox chatters are relatively busy, and the site itself (existence/growth) has, perhaps entirely accidentally, roughly paralleled a great period for the Sox both on the field and in popularity.


I believe Mr. Furtado is a Red Sox fan and is one of the chief contributors to linking to Red Sox material in the newsblog.
   175. McCoy Posted: August 25, 2012 at 10:07 PM (#4218317)
And Estelle Getty was/is younger than Bea Arthur/Rue McClanahan.

Angela Landsbury played the mother in the Manchurian Candidate and she was 36 yrs old. Her son was played by an actor who was 33 yrs old.

Virtually every single Aaron Spelling teen show featured 20 somethings and occasionally 30 somethings be cast as 16 year olds.
   176. I am going to be Frank Posted: August 25, 2012 at 10:40 PM (#4218329)
Anne Bancroft was only six years older than Dustin Hoffman and Angelina Jolie played Colin Farrell's mother in Alexander.
   177. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: August 25, 2012 at 11:32 PM (#4218347)
Has anyone heard from Ray?

He boarded a plane to Israel this afternoon with Pumpsie Green and Gene Conley, and hasn't been seen or heard from since.
   178. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: August 25, 2012 at 11:37 PM (#4218356)
Angela Landsbury played the mother in the Manchurian Candidate and she was 36 yrs old. Her son was played by an actor who was 33 yrs old.

Elizabeth Taylor played a grandmother in Giant at 24, while her son (Dennis Hopper) was 20.
   179. McCoy Posted: August 25, 2012 at 11:40 PM (#4218359)
Angelina Jolie played Colin Farrell's mother in Alexander.

Well, to be fair to Stone and his casting decisions that movie spanned 25 years or so of Alexander's life.
   180. McCoy Posted: August 25, 2012 at 11:42 PM (#4218361)
There was a movie I was thinking about the other day where I had just realized that the main actor was playing a character who was supposed to be rather young and yet the actor wasn't young and didn't look young. Once I realized that everything clicked as to why I thought the movie didn't really work. Now of course this thread comes along and I am completely blanking on which movie it was and who was the actor.
   181. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: August 26, 2012 at 12:39 AM (#4218385)
There was a movie I was thinking about the other day where I had just realized that the main actor was playing a character who was supposed to be rather young and yet the actor wasn't young and didn't look young. Once I realized that everything clicked as to why I thought the movie didn't really work. Now of course this thread comes along and I am completely blanking on which movie it was and who was the actor.


Was it "Big"? Because there was a reason Tom Hanks played a 13 year old boy in that one.
   182. Dale Sams Posted: August 26, 2012 at 01:58 AM (#4218408)
Clearly, Danny Glover did die a few weeks ago, but reality has changed since then, so none of the rest of you remember it & I only vaguely do.


Ann Jillian died of breast cancer...then she didn't. William Hickey died three times until he finally stupidly died the same day Burt Lancaster died so now no one would know...then those dates changed too. Stupid matrix.
   183. KT's Pot Arb Posted: August 26, 2012 at 04:38 AM (#4218422)
He is a lifetime 105+ player as a corner outfielder (where players are expected to hit). He is on the wrong side of 30. He isn't worth half his contract now, and the divergence will get dramatically bigger, every year. It was brilliant for the Red Sox to dump him. He is chum, but paid as if he were caviar.


Because ages 20-21 are so predictive of age 31 performance we should include them?

Crawford is averaging a 110 OPS+ the last 3 years, including his two disastrous, injury plagued, Red Sox years(113 over 2009-2011). He's averaging a 110 all the way back to age 23.

And because base running and steals aren't offense, just OPS+? He's also 70 for 86 in steals the last three years, that's over 20 extra bases a year.

And of course defense doesn't matter in the corners.
   184. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: August 26, 2012 at 08:57 AM (#4218437)
I still never really understood why people thought Crawford was such an elite ballplayer. As his skills diminish, and he gets on base (even) less than he used to, the SB stuff matters less and less. You can't steal first, and I don't see a guy over the next five years who is likely to exceed about .335 with the OBP. Fenway was bad for hitting HRs, diminished the value of his defense in LF...it was a bad fit all the way around.

If you are going to spend $20+ million a year on a player, Boston, please make sure it is on elite ballplayers. Crawford was not an elite ballplayer, and he certainly is not, now. Hamilton and Greinke are not elite ball players (well, Hamilton may be, but I certainly wouldn't want to bet on him being elite for the next three to five years). If there aren't elite ballplayers available this offseason, then don't pay elite money this off season! This is how the John Lackey deal happened. He was the best pitcher available in a lousy market.
   185. Joey B. is being stalked by a (Gonfa) loon Posted: August 26, 2012 at 09:36 AM (#4218440)
Basically, the core of this site is Boston Red Sox

ROTFL. At best, the Red Sox come in fourth place after extreme left wing politics, the National Basketball Association, and soccer.
   186. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: August 26, 2012 at 11:45 AM (#4218496)
"Crawford is averaging a 110 OPS+ the last 3 years, including his two disastrous, injury plagued, Red Sox years(113 over 2009-2011). He's averaging a 110 all the way back to age 23."

Okay, but that includes a career year that he's probably never going to replicate.
   187. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: August 26, 2012 at 12:03 PM (#4218505)
I still never really understood why people thought Crawford was such an elite ballplayer.


Because he averaged over 4 WAR per season from 2004-2010 and was under 30 years old when signed. The WAR total was 9th in all of MLB during that time period. Of course that gives a lot of credit to his defense and if you don't trust the defensive calculations you should adjust but he was legitimately a star player for several years.

I also hate hate hate the argument that Fenway diminishes his defense. While that's true too many Sox teams in my life have been sunk because they were built for Fenway then got squished on the road. The Sox play as many games away from Fenway as they do at Fenway and having an elite defender has an impact in those games.

It didn't work out obviously but I think it is incorrect to say he was not a very good to great player when signed.
   188. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: August 26, 2012 at 12:14 PM (#4218517)
I still never really understood why people thought Crawford was such an elite ballplayer.


Serious question: why do people think that Justin Upton is such an elite ballplayer?
   189. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: August 26, 2012 at 12:19 PM (#4218526)
"I also hate hate hate the argument that Fenway diminishes his defense. While that's true too many Sox teams in my life have been sunk because they were built for Fenway then got squished on the road. The Sox play as many games away from Fenway as they do at Fenway and having an elite defender has an impact in those games."

But it's not an argument, it's a fact. The Red Sox had their greatest success with Ramirez and Bay out in left, and I see no compelling argument for putting a player in a position to fail in half his games. Crawford was a good player who went to the worst possible team, and the Sox should have seen that coming.
   190. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: August 26, 2012 at 01:45 PM (#4218575)
The fact that LF is easy at Fenway doesn't mean Crawford was set up to fail. His "failure" stems from being unlucky (injured).
   191. phredbird Posted: August 26, 2012 at 01:46 PM (#4218577)
armstrong was never in a franchise that grossed as much as lethal weapon.

Now who's being naïve?


dude, we're talking L.A. here.
   192. phredbird Posted: August 26, 2012 at 01:52 PM (#4218581)
Angela Landsbury played the mother in the Manchurian Candidate and she was 36 yrs old. Her son was played by an actor who was 33 yrs old.

Elizabeth Taylor played a grandmother in Giant at 24, while her son (Dennis Hopper) was 20.


and jessie royce landis played cary grant's mother in north by northwest even though they were only separated by about two years ....

this stuff happens all the time. they're actors.
   193. The District Attorney Posted: August 26, 2012 at 02:02 PM (#4218585)
Kate Winslet is 12 years older than her Mildred Pierce "daughter" Evan Rachel Wood, although I suppose that pales in comparison to all these barely older/not older at all examples.

Lea Thompson is ten days older than her Back to the Future "son" Michael J. Fox, but of course that shouldn't count at all because A) the characters end up being the same age and B) the old-age makeup is so bad no one could believe it anyway.

My "naïve" comment was a worse (although, I will say, more movie-referencing) way to express #164.
   194. spycake Posted: August 27, 2012 at 11:58 AM (#4219135)
MLBTradeRumors says that De La Rosa is included technically as a PTBNL, since the Blue Jays claimed him off waivers. This seems like a glaring loophole in waiver trading, has it been used before?


First question: why even put De La Rosa on waivers? Wouldn't he get claimed by basically every other team in baseball?

Second question: assuming he was put on waivers, how in the world would he fall to the Blue Jays? I guess this just means the Jays put in the first claim on him, or the final claim before the waivers were withdrawn, not that they had any kind of priority in their claim. Seems silly to even mention the Jays then. Maybe the Blue Jays are like that guy who always responds immediately to emails, even in the middle of the night, and you wonder why they were even awake at that time...

Regarding the PTBNL, it would interesting to see what would happen if De La Rosa sustained a serious injury (er, another serious injury) between now and the end of the season -- I wonder who or what else the Red Sox could get instead? Or, it would be cool if the Dodgers just told De La Rosa to "let 'er rip" in September and possible playoffs and took the anti-Strasburg strategy with him, since he's likely going away anyway. Not that he'd provide value, but it would be interesting.
   195. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: August 27, 2012 at 12:13 PM (#4219145)

Second question: assuming he was put on waivers, how in the world would he fall to the Blue Jays? I guess this just means the Jays put in the first claim on him, or the final claim before the waivers were withdrawn, not that they had any kind of priority in their claim. Seems silly to even mention the Jays then. Maybe the Blue Jays are like that guy who always responds immediately to emails, even in the middle of the night, and you wonder why they were even awake at that time...


I get the sense that since so many players are placed on waivers this time of year, teams don't claim everyone they should. It used to be back in the day you could even slip valuable players through waivers. But I would guess most teams didn't figure de la Rosa would clear waivers, and if he did, the Dodgers would pull him back, so what's the point?
   196. JJ1986 Posted: August 27, 2012 at 12:16 PM (#4219148)
I think guys on minimum contracts are usually allowed through as a courtesy.
   197. spycake Posted: August 27, 2012 at 01:42 PM (#4219222)
I suppose revocable waivers are an entirely different beast -- there really is no point in making a claim ever unless you're trying to block a trade. If a player goes unclaimed, you can always get in on the trade discussion later (maybe even moreso than if you claimed a guy and he was pulled back immediately). Maybe it should have been the Giants or some NL wild card contender to claim De La Rosa, to at least complicate the Dodgers trade efforts (although the PTBNL thing seems like a pretty painless fix).

I'm always a little surprised, though, when a guy like Gonzalez goes unclaimed, or Manny Ramirez in 2003. Seems like someone could benefit from adding them, even at that salary.
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