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Tuesday, July 24, 2012

Singer/Heyman/Morosi: Wandy Rodriguez to Pirates

Rodriguez is under contract for $13 million next year and a player option for $13 million the following year.

CONFIRMED: #Pirates get LHP Wandy Rodriguez and cash from #Astros for Rudy Owens, Colton Cain and Robbie Grossman.—

All three are among the Pirates’ top 20 prospects, though Owens didn’t look that way after last year at AAA at age 23.

All three were draft picks out of high school (2006 28th round, 2009 8th round, 2008 6th round respectively).

Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: July 24, 2012 at 10:03 PM | 39 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: astros, pirates

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   1. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 25, 2012 at 08:45 AM (#4191651)
Robbie Grossman is the centerpiece; he's a 22 year old outfielder with excellent strike zone judgment who has a good chance at a future in a major league lineup.

Rudy Owens is basically Zach Duke. He's probably isn't going to improve very much from what he is now, but he's ready to be a major league fifth starter now. He's actually probably no worse than the third-best starter in the Astros' organization now. I honestly don't know why they decided to keep him in AAA. But if he doesn't blow his arm he'll likely give them four or five years of #5/maybe #4 starter production. Zach Duke.

Colton Cain is a random A-ball arm.

I like this deal for the Astros. Wandy's no spring chicken; I think it's an open question whether he or Rudy Owens will produce more value overall from here forward. And Grossman's a prospect. For the Pirates, of course, it's about winning now (and I haven't looked yet but I would certainly hope Correia has been DFA'd by now). I think the trade is a mistake for the Pirates because they're not going to win this year and they're likely going to miss Robbie Grossman; it's not like they're swimming in outfielders. It's unlikely to cripple them, though. They still have two more Rudy Owenses (Justin Wilson, Jeff Locke) in Indianapolis, but they would do well to hold onto them both now. They're going to need one for sure when Bedard goes on the DL for the rest of the year, which should be any day now.
   2. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: July 25, 2012 at 09:41 AM (#4191700)
I think the trade is a mistake for the Pirates because they're not going to win this year and they're likely going to miss Robbie Grossman;

The Pirates have a great shot to win the division,and lord knows their fans deserve an honest effort from the front office to go for it. The Reds are on a hot streak but have plenty of flaws, as do the Cardinals. Getting an above-average starter for the stretch run and next year is a great move.
   3. booond Posted: July 25, 2012 at 09:43 AM (#4191702)
Grossman is okay but he's more of a guy who takes a walk and not much else. His best year was a repeat at A+. There is some question as to whether he can play CF in majors. If he sticks in CF and can hit .270 with his ability to discern strikes from balls he's not horrible. Wandy might pitch a little better in Pittsburgh with a good defense behind him.
   4. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 25, 2012 at 09:47 AM (#4191708)
Grossman looks like a future 4th outfielder to me. (More exactly, having been informed of Robbie Grossman's existence this morning, and then having spent ten minutes googling up stats and scouting reports, I'm not much impressed. His glove in CF seems doubtful, and he's no more - probably less - than a league average contributor in a corner.) That's a respectable return for the Astros for Wandy, whose contract is basically at market, but it's not something I'd be terribly worried about if i were a Pirates fan.
   5. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: July 25, 2012 at 09:50 AM (#4191710)
The last time the Pirates traded for a veteran to assist in a playoff race was Danny Jackson. July 11, 1992.
   6. SM Posted: July 25, 2012 at 09:54 AM (#4191715)
They traded for Derrek Lee just last year!
   7. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 25, 2012 at 09:55 AM (#4191716)
They traded for Ryan Ludwick and Derrek Lee last summer, right?
   8. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: July 25, 2012 at 09:56 AM (#4191718)
Oh, they knew they weren't in the playoff race last year. And they didn't give anything up for those guys.
   9. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 25, 2012 at 09:59 AM (#4191722)
They basically bought those guys - it was money spent to try to compete.

I do agree that this is different. The Pirates are spending assets as well as money, which they haven't done in a long time.
   10. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 25, 2012 at 10:08 AM (#4191735)
You also forgot Shawon Dunston in 1997.
   11. SoSH U at work Posted: July 25, 2012 at 10:12 AM (#4191739)
The last time the Pirates traded for a veteran to assist in a playoff race was Danny Jackson. July 11, 1992.
\

What about the Matt Morris pickup? Sure, it didn't have any bearing on the Pirates' season, but surely that helped some team's playoff chances.

   12. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 25, 2012 at 10:20 AM (#4191748)

I think the trade is a mistake for the Pirates because they're not going to win this year and they're likely going to miss Robbie Grossman;


Wandy is signed for two more years, and with the Astros eating some money, his contract is now very reasonable. Makes sense to make a move for a guy that will be here a few years.
   13. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: July 25, 2012 at 10:27 AM (#4191756)
You also forgot Shawon Dunston in 1997.

OK, well, you know, you guys, I mean, just, well, whatever.

Wandy is signed for two more years, and with the Astros eating some money, his contract is now very reasonable. Makes sense to make a move for a guy that will be here a few years.

Also, "Now that they've traded Rudy Owens, they only have two other guys left at AAA just like him." is not an argument likely to make too many fans upset.
   14. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 25, 2012 at 10:54 AM (#4191782)
For PR the trade is great. Nobody in Pittsburgh really knows or cares who Robbie Grossman is, much less Rudy Owens. It's a trade that I'm sure both teams are happy with; the Pirates want value now, which Wandy provides, and the Astros want some guys they can plug into their lineup for the next few years while they wait for a chance to get good again, which Owens and Grossman have a good chance of providing.

That Wandy's locked up through his age 35 season is far from certain to be a positive. This is mostly about trying to win now, for the Pirates. Problem is the Reds are still at least as good as the Pirates--without Votto. I don't think it's realistic to expect the Pirates to stay in contention for either the division or a wild card. The Pirates have been on fire lately--but so have the Reds, and they're slowly but surely losing ground on the Reds already.

But hot damn, you can't possibly blame them for taking their best shot at it, after 20 ####### years.
   15. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 25, 2012 at 10:56 AM (#4191783)
By the way, if I were the Pirates I absolutely would have topped the Dodgers' offer for Hanley Ramirez and taken on his salary. They have the money to spend, and they don't really have any good players approaching free agency they'll have to give big money to in the near future.
   16. Shooty Is Disappointed With His Midstream Urine Posted: July 25, 2012 at 10:57 AM (#4191785)
But hot damn, you can't possibly blame them for taking their best shot at it, after 20 ####### years.

I don't think you can underestimate this. An entire generation has never even seen this team have a winning record. They need to exorcise some demons this year.
   17. Guapo Posted: July 25, 2012 at 11:14 AM (#4191798)
Baseball Prospectus Playoff Odds, National League:

Cincinnati: 90.8
Washington: 87.9
San Francisco: 84.4
St. Louis: 60.4
Atlanta: 57.3
Pittsburgh: 57.2
Los Angeles: 31.8
Arizona: 20.7
Everybody else: 9.5

It's gonna be a very interesting postseason.
   18. hokieneer Posted: July 25, 2012 at 11:18 AM (#4191802)
By the way, if I were the Pirates I absolutely would have topped the Dodgers' offer for Hanley Ramirez and taken on his salary. They have the money to spend, and they don't really have any good players approaching free agency they'll have to give big money to in the near future.


That's my thought process as well. Seems the Pirates need more offensive help at corner OF / 1B (and also SS) than they need a quality arm. Wandy does help their team for the playoff push, but that lineup is terrible.
   19. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 25, 2012 at 11:23 AM (#4191805)
I'd be more inclined to put Hanley at third base (if I can talk him into it), Alvarez at first base, and remove McGehee from the lineup (and preferably the roster). Barmes hits like a pitcher, but he's a nifty glove and the Pirates don't strike a lot of guys out.
   20. cardsfanboy Posted: July 25, 2012 at 11:23 AM (#4191806)
You have to like this deal from both sides. There is just enough of a season left that the Pirates are serious contenders for one of the two wild card spots, a deal like this signals the fanbase that they aren't just going to play out the season(I wouldn't be surprised to see ticket sales increase dramatically after this move) add in that they still get a major league pitcher, locked into a contract beyond this season and it's a no brainer for the Pirates. The Astros have to up their minor leagues, they've held on to long to semi-valuable trade chips for no apparent reason in the recent past. Hopefully the Astros plan(assuming they have any) is to gut out the team(what little they have) and then start purchasing in the off season, if not they are going to be the second coming of the Royals.
   21. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 25, 2012 at 11:24 AM (#4191807)
By the way, if I were the Pirates I absolutely would have topped the Dodgers' offer for Hanley Ramirez and taken on his salary. They have the money to spend, and they don't really have any good players approaching free agency they'll have to give big money to in the near future.
Hanley's no sure thing (0.4 WAR 2011-2012 combined), and I'd be very wary of adding a low-effort, high-salary malcontent to a young clubhouse like Pittsburgh has. I could be wrong about Hanley, and Hanley might be a lot better than his 2011-2012 production, but the double risk would make me hold back quite a bit if I were the Pirates.

They should absolutely be in on Hunter Pence, though. He'd be a perfect fit for that roster, a multiple win upgrade on the dreck they have in corner OF.
   22. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 25, 2012 at 11:26 AM (#4191810)
barmes is the defensive linchpin to the league's most surprisingly improved defense

if the pirates put him on the bench that team would be seriously impaired

zeth's proposal is the best option but it's kind of crazy how third base has become a tough position to fill in the big leagues
   23. Bourbon Samurai Posted: July 25, 2012 at 11:28 AM (#4191812)
They should absolutely be in on Hunter Pence, though. He'd be a perfect fit for that roster, a multiple win upgrade on the dreck they have in corner OF.


Hunter Pence would make a lot of sense, but that are so awful in the corners they could get basically anybody and improve.
   24. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 25, 2012 at 11:34 AM (#4191817)
True. Are there other corner outfielders available?
   25. Rennie's Tenet Posted: July 25, 2012 at 11:35 AM (#4191819)
That's my thought process as well. Seems the Pirates need more offensive help at corner OF / 1B (and also SS) than they need a quality arm. Wandy does help their team for the playoff push, but that lineup is terrible.


I think it's very likely that some of the remaining pitchers in the high minors (Justin Wilson, Bryan Morris, Jeff Locke, Kyle McPherson) will be made part of a package for an outfielder or first baseman.

If you factor consistency in, Wandy is probably the best pitcher on the staff now, so you have to like the trade. It's a little disconcerting, though, that they're adding Burnett/Bedard/Rodriguez over about six months instead of filling holes through the system.
   26. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 25, 2012 at 11:41 AM (#4191828)
if i was doug melvin i would be offering up hart. his contract is reasonable and he could handle first or right for the pirates

because of his size and plate approach i don't like corey's long term future chances. in the short term it would be painful but if the pirates have a young centerfielder or shortstop and some arms that would be a start
   27. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 25, 2012 at 11:48 AM (#4191841)
True. Are there other corner outfielders available?


The Cubs may have someone.
   28. asinwreck Posted: July 25, 2012 at 11:50 AM (#4191848)
The Cubs may have someone.


True, LaHair would fit the Pirates' needs...
   29. Dingbat_Charlie Posted: July 25, 2012 at 12:00 PM (#4191859)
Colton Cain is a name that could strike fear in the hearts of gun-slinging outlaws.
   30. base ball chick Posted: July 25, 2012 at 12:33 PM (#4191895)
the astros are paying TWELVE million of wandy's salary for like what?

those guys are seriously gonna be up in september like luhnow is talking about? i don't get this trade. not at all. i don't get one single trade that has gone down from carlos lee to wandy. the astros have eaten ALL their salary and not gotten back much of anything.

i keep looking at the stats. what am i missing here? which guy that we have gotten looks as if he is going to be a legitimate major leaguer - not the he gets called up in Sept because this say the team can show that their tradees "made the ML roster" and sit in the bench and get 4 pinch hit ABs against the best relievers in the league/ sent in as a ROOGY/LOOGY against one of the top 10 hitters in the NL.

after this year, ima root for pittsburgh. as long as they keep mah boy wandy
   31. JJ1986 Posted: July 25, 2012 at 12:51 PM (#4191912)
those guys are seriously gonna be up in september like luhnow is talking about?


These doesn't seem like a fair way to judge a trade. It would probably be worse if he was taking players who were almost MLB ready.
   32. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: July 25, 2012 at 12:52 PM (#4191914)
You don't get these trades or don't approve of them?
I get them - they're, flatly, unconcerned with winning this year. They want as many cheap, potentially usable assets (this includes future high draft picks) as that can get to replenish a lousy farm system and hope to emerge in a few years as a very different club. Seems like a reasonable strategy to me, albeit one I can get a 'Stros fan not supporting.
   33. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 25, 2012 at 01:02 PM (#4191929)
These doesn't seem like a fair way to judge a trade. It would probably be worse if he was taking players who were almost MLB ready.


But they did. Rudy Owens is a low ceiling (as in, he's probably already at his ceiling) MLB-ready pitcher. The trade is him, an outfielder a year away and a random live arm.

But I'd repeat what I said last time I posted, that the Astros probably weren't getting a high-impact young prospect for Wandy, so they traded him for a couple useful names to write into their lineup for the next few years. Someone has to play.

BBC represents the bitterest faction of Astros fans that are going to hate pretty much everything the team does. But the team has to move veterans, because they're going to be very, very bad for the next two or three years.
   34. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: July 25, 2012 at 01:11 PM (#4191941)
I totally agree with the logic behind the Bucs taking their best shot in 2012. But does Wandy Rodriguez really represent their 'best shot'? Hasn't he pretty much been in a tailspin since May? Or is this simply mostly about PR/the fans, since they didn't have to give up all that much to get him?
   35. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 25, 2012 at 01:12 PM (#4191942)
It shows either that the Pirates are unwilling to part with their real prospects (smart, if so) or that they're holding back the real prospects for a bigger deal, like Upton or Pence or Soriano.

As a pitching depth move and Proven Veteran value aside, I wonder just how much value they really gained by upgrading from Rudy Owens to Wandy Rodriguez. Wandy's good but he hasn't been pitching the lights out anytime lately.

But they didn't give up THAT much and the salary isn't a problem for them, so why not? I think they'll miss Grossman, but nobody's likely ever going to slam his head off the desk for having let Grossman get away.
   36. Rennie's Tenet Posted: July 25, 2012 at 01:43 PM (#4191980)
Grossman started hitting in A ball last year (.298 AV/.411 OBP). He jumped to the Arizona Fall League and hit .375, and had that season ended by some hamate surgery. He started 2012 slowly, but has hit .312 in June and .346 so far in July. He's a quality acquisition.
   37. Tom T Posted: July 26, 2012 at 01:26 PM (#4192752)
He's a quality acquisition.


Yes, I was hoping to see Grossman in Indy in the next year or so. Guess this explained why Logan Kensing was suddenly wearing Owens's number yesterday....

I'm still not sold on Marte, but it is clear the guy has loads of talent and is doing something positive with it. He is showing substantially improved pitch recognition, but I think he's still tending to decide that he's going to swing at the next pitch before the pitcher has even gotten a signal. Marte's ceiling is certainly higher than Grossman's, but I think the "most likely" outcome isn't terribly different, and I suspect Marte's floor may be lower.
   38. Russ Posted: July 26, 2012 at 03:47 PM (#4192862)
It shows either that the Pirates are unwilling to part with their real prospects (smart, if so) or that they're holding back the real prospects for a bigger deal, like Upton or Pence or Soriano.


I think it's a little of both. I think the Pirates will make a move, but Huntington is probably trying to play the Padres, Phillies, and Diamondbacks (Headley, Pence, Upton) off of one another. As long as none of those players have been moved, the Pirates can keep their asking price for all three pretty low. It's only after one (or definitely two) are traded that the Pirates lose leverage.

The Pirates might be able to sneak off with Pence for the draft pick + useful minor league player without dealing any of their star prospects, so I would guess that they won't trade a big prospect unless Pence goes somewhere else and then they're sort of forced into trading for one of the other two players.

   39. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 26, 2012 at 04:16 PM (#4192880)
Victorino's still a possibility. There are rumors the Phillies will be willing to part with him for not much in return beyond picking up his salary, and are just waiting until the deadline to see if someone gets antsy and offers real value back.

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