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Monday, February 18, 2008

Skyking162: Best Modern Second Basemen

Welch-aid alert! Welch-aid alert!...Head exploded at deli located near Reason Magazine offices. Juices flowing!

I’ve previously established that Lou Whitaker is no Joe Morgan (who in turn is no Willie Mays). But how does Sweet Lou stack up against the rest of the best second basemen of the past fifty years? I ran the numbers on eight other players who are either already in the Hall of Fame, rate highly in career OPS+, or rate highly in career fielding runs. Those players are Rod Carew, Bill Mazeroski, Willie Randolph, Roberto Alomar, Ryne Sandberg, Jeff Kent, Bobby Grich, and Craig Biggio. (I’m shocked at how few modern second basemen are in the Hall.)

...The best player left to talk about is Bobby Grich, who, to be honest, I hadn’t heard of until three weeks ago. Grich played for the Orioles and Angels, and made up for his mediocre career batting average (.266) with some power (591 XBHs in only 6890 career at-bats) and a lot of walks (1087). His career 125 OPS+ ranks eighth all time for second basemen with at least 3000 career plate appearances, ahead of everyone on this list except Joe Morgan. He could play defense, too, with 79 career runs prevented. While Grich didn’t have the longest career and missed parts of many seasons, he was an excellent player when in the lineup.

Repoz Posted: February 18, 2008 at 05:05 AM | 40 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
Tags: history, sabermetrics

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1. RB in NYC (Now with New iPhone!) Posted: February 18, 2008 at 05:25 AM (#2693426)

Cano!

Pedroia!

Cano!

Pedroia!

Any questions?

2. Guts

Posted: February 18, 2008 at 05:40 AM (#2693435)

Utley?

3. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: February 18, 2008 at 05:43 AM (#2693438)

The best player left to talk about is Bobby Grich, who, to be honest, I hadn’t heard of until three weeks ago.

WTF?!??! Were you born in a cave? This is why I advocate that all schools be required to have a copy of RBI Baseball.

4. Charter Member of the Jesus Melendez Fanclub Posted: February 18, 2008 at 05:49 AM (#2693445)

I am glad such historians of the game can publish their analysis to learn us poor souls.

5. Hugh Jorgan Posted: February 18, 2008 at 06:04 AM (#2693455)

The best player left to talk about is Bobby Grich, who, to be honest, I hadn’t heard of until three weeks ago.

The writer is obviously not as old as I am.

I remember when Grich came over to the halos I got to see him play quite a few times. A good patient hitter with gap power at the time and a good glove. His career at the Angels seemed erratic though....injuries I suppose.

If you are looking at adding more 2nd baseman to the HOF, he definitely needs to be in the discussion.

6. Ray (RDP)

Posted: February 18, 2008 at 06:09 AM (#2693457)

Come on, guys; he may have just learned who Grich is, but his analysis is far better than what you'd get from the Bill Conlins of the world -- who actually have heard of Grich. Mind you I don't really agree with this guy's rankings, but at least he's making a serious attempt.

7. AROM Posted: February 18, 2008 at 06:10 AM (#2693458)

People born the year Bobby Grich retired are either college seniors or recent graduates. Makes me feel old.

8. OCF Posted: February 18, 2008 at 06:21 AM (#2693464)

As for Grich - you can check out the "Group 2" results thread from the Hall of Merit portion of BTF. We thought we was better qualified for the Hall of Fame than Ron Santo. The full order among 12 players, post WWII but beyond the reach of the BBWAA, all of whom we think are Hall-qualified:

1. Grich
2. Santo
3. Dick Allen
4. Ted Simmons
5. Darrell Evans
6. Joe Torre
7. Minnie Minoso
8. Bill Freehan
9. Billy Pierce
10. Jimmy Wynn
11. Graig Nettles
12. Ken Boyer

We dealt with Whitaker in "Group 1". He's also easily Hall-qualified.

9. Crispix Attacks Posted: February 18, 2008 at 06:31 AM (#2693472)

I've heard of Bobby Grich, but I'm surprised he was a player of the 80s, I thought he was longer ago than that. Upon further inspection I must have confused him with Bobby Knoop.

Come on, guys; he may have just learned who Grich is, but his analysis is far better than what you'd get from the Bill Conlins of the world -- who actually have heard of Grich. Mind you I don't really agree with this guy's rankings, but at least he's making a serious attempt.

Very good point.

We thought we was better qualified for the Hall of Fame than Ron Santo.

You sure am qualified to vote for the Hall of Fame, but I don't know about being in it.

10. Crispix Attacks Posted: February 18, 2008 at 06:40 AM (#2693478)

All-Star AL second basemen named "Bobby" with five-letter, one-syllable, Germanic last names:

Doerr > Grich > Knoop

11. Hurdle's Heroes (SuperBaes) Posted: February 18, 2008 at 06:53 AM (#2693482)

I advocate that all schools be required to have a copy of RBI Baseball.

I agree. That might be the greatest game ever made, even if all the players are white.

12. Matt Welch Posted: February 18, 2008 at 07:00 AM (#2693488)

Grich was better than Doerr....

Is there any broad class of players more underrated in historical discussions than hitters with high secondary averages whose careers took place between 1963-86?

And yeah, "he could play defense." It's weird; in the Orioles phase of his career he was widely (and rightly) seen as by far the best defensive 2Bman in the game. But that reputation didn't make the trip out west, and by '79 he was more known for his offense, even though his D was still terrific.

Don't know that I'd rate him higher than Santo, though.

13. Voros McCracken, Human Shield Posted: February 18, 2008 at 07:19 AM (#2693500)

It does give you pause when someone writes about never having heard of someone you watched play for several years. Now where's my cane?

14. Crispix Attacks Posted: February 18, 2008 at 07:23 AM (#2693501)

Don't worry, we've all never heard of some players who are in the majors at this very moment!

Last year we had a thread to figure out "Who's the best player we've never heard of?"

For me it was Chris Snyder. But now that I've heard of him, though, the new title-holder is someone else. Who? If I find out, it won't be him anymore.

15. Teheran's Uranium Enriched Missiles Posted: February 18, 2008 at 07:28 AM (#2693503)

For me, it was Jensen Lewis.

Any of the Texas relievers would work. I had no clue who they were until I looked them up during the Tex trade.

16. Belfry Bob Posted: February 18, 2008 at 08:35 AM (#2693534)

17. GotowarMissAgnes Posted: February 18, 2008 at 03:52 PM (#2693622)

Jeez, I know I'm getting old, but when I was in college I knew the names and careers of the Grich-quality players from the fifties. It's nice that he admits that he didn't 'know' Grich, but...wow...I'm just left shaking my head over that one.

It's the decline of SOM and the rise of fantasy baseball :) Kids today are much more likely to be talking about today's players because of it, rather than the geezers.

18. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: February 18, 2008 at 03:59 PM (#2693627)

The best player I hadn't heard about until recently was probably Dick Allen. I had never heard of him until maybe a few years ago.

19. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: February 18, 2008 at 04:09 PM (#2693637)

What WARP stat is he using? Not mine and not BP's...

20. Mike Emeigh

Posted: February 18, 2008 at 04:10 PM (#2693639)

Who's the best player we've never heard of?

Tossing out some names:

Chris Coghlan
Deibinson Romero
Charlie Culberson
Nick Noonan

-- MWE

21. gef the talking mongoose Posted: February 18, 2008 at 04:11 PM (#2693640)

Richie Allen, though, you knew all about.

22. RB in NYC (Now with New iPhone!) Posted: February 18, 2008 at 04:19 PM (#2693653)

Kids today are much more likely to be talking about today's players because of it, rather than the geezers.

Of course, then there's the "D-Backs looking at signing veteran Nixon" thread, where half a dozen people (myself included) thought they meant Otis rather than Trot.

23. salvomania Posted: February 18, 2008 at 04:21 PM (#2693658)

One of the best players (post-WWII division) that I hadn't heard of---as a kid in the '70s I was baseball obsessed and I read everything I could get my hands on about baseball, had hundreds of baseball cards from the '50s and '60s, and could talk knowledgeably with all my dads' friends about players who had retired before I was born---was Steve Gromek.

Seventeen-year career as a starter and reliever, 123 wins, had a complete-game win the World Series, won 19 games at age 24, 18 games at age 34.

Never recalled hearing about him or reading about him until a couple years ago.

24. salvomania Posted: February 18, 2008 at 04:29 PM (#2693666)

Gromek was perhaps best known for this.

25. Chris Dial Posted: February 18, 2008 at 04:32 PM (#2693668)

I would say Buzz Arlett.

26. Steve Treder Posted: February 18, 2008 at 04:53 PM (#2693680)

Of course, then there's the "D-Backs looking at signing veteran Nixon" thread, where half a dozen people (myself included) thought they meant Otis rather than Trot.

Christ, my first thought was "Russ" ...

27. Crispix Attacks Posted: February 18, 2008 at 04:55 PM (#2693684)

The D-Backs would do well to sign Norm Nixon, he could fill the role of very tall old guy that was filled last season by Tony Clark.

28. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: February 18, 2008 at 05:27 PM (#2693714)

Jeez, I know I'm getting old, but when I was in college I knew the names and careers of the Grich-quality players from the fifties. It's nice that he admits that he didn't 'know' Grich, but...wow...I'm just left shaking my head over that one.

next he'll be telling us he never heard of Verle Tiefenthaler

29. SkyKing162 Posted: February 18, 2008 at 05:36 PM (#2693723)

I'm using a quick and dirty WAR calculation I took from Sean Smith's blog: start with Batting Wins (above average) from B-Ref, add in 2 wins per 650 PAs for replacement level, then add in fielding runs from TotalZone or STATS ZR and a positional adjustment.

For the record, I'm 27 and had heard the name Grich before, but thought he was a crappy Met from the 1960s. Evidently that's incorrect.

30. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: February 18, 2008 at 05:39 PM (#2693729)

I'm 27 and had heard the name Grich before, but thought he was a crappy Met from the 1960s.

no, that was Chris Canzoneri

31. Bob Dernier Cri

Posted: February 18, 2008 at 05:59 PM (#2693743)

Every time there's a "unheard-of-great" thread, I learn a new player ... I went over to B-Ref and looked at the Games Played leaderboard. There are certainly some deadball players that I know almost nothing about – Tommy Corcoran, Ed Konetchy – but I had at least heard of them and knew their position played and era played in. Patsy Donovan was probably the first guy who came up (tied for 325th) that I couldn't place at all. I figured him for an early manager, which turned out to be correct, but I was confusing him with Pat Moran. I actually had no notion of Patsy Donovan. But as Crispix points out, now I do. Fast 1890s singles-hitting right fielder, sort of Ur-Ichiro-Extremely-Lite. More neurons wasted on baseball now. Aaargh.

32. Steve Treder Posted: February 18, 2008 at 06:00 PM (#2693745)

next he'll be telling us he never heard of Verle Tiefenthaler

Or even, god help us, Ethan Blackaby.

33. Shredder Posted: February 18, 2008 at 06:01 PM (#2693747)

Jeez, I know I'm getting old, but when I was in college I knew the names and careers of the Grich-quality players from the fifties. It's nice that he admits that he didn't 'know' Grich, but...wow...I'm just left shaking my head over that one.

Same here. It's one thing to say "I'd heard of him, but never realized he was that good", but to have never heard of him? Sheesh!

Then again, he drove in the winning run in the 11th inning in game four in 1986, which to this day is the greatest moment in any sporting event I've ever attended in person.

34. Voros McCracken, Human Shield Posted: February 18, 2008 at 06:12 PM (#2693759)

One of my favorite players ever is somewhat obscure (at least to the general baseball public, though not likely here): Johnny Mostil. Famous for two things: catching a foul ball for an out in spring training (while playing center field), and trying to dust himself (also in spring training). He never fully recovered (though his career got a late start as he was buried behind the black sox in his youth).

But for about two years he was the greatest leadoff hitter in the history of the Chicago White Sox and by a comfortable margin. Finished 2nd in MVP voting in 1926 (tried to kill himself before the start of 1927).

35. The cushions are crowded for Edmundo

Posted: February 18, 2008 at 06:22 PM (#2693769)

More neurons wasted on baseball now

Silly man. 100 times, at the blackboard, write: Using up neurons on baseball is NEVER waste.

36. Boots Day Posted: February 18, 2008 at 06:30 PM (#2693780)

In the Bill James New Historical Abstract, where he ranked the 100 top players at each position, I think the highest-rated player I had never heard of was Bruce Campbell. I've still never heard of Bruce Campbell in any other context; I think James just made him up.

37. Voros McCracken, Human Shield Posted: February 18, 2008 at 06:31 PM (#2693783)

Bruce Campbell is a god.

38. Boots Day Posted: February 18, 2008 at 06:36 PM (#2693789)

Well, most gods are made up, aren't they?

39. Shredder Posted: February 18, 2008 at 06:44 PM (#2693800)

Bruce Campbell is a god.

I just finally watched Army of Darkness this weekend. How could anyone not love Bruce Campbell?

40. Bob Dernier Cri

Posted: February 18, 2008 at 06:45 PM (#2693801)

I never heard of Bruce Campbell, either. I would have guessed him as a 1970s relief pitcher, maybe the evil twin brother of Bill Campbell. There were a ton of 1970s ballplayers named Bruce, not so many from other eras.

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Skyking162: Best Modern Second Basemen

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