Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Wednesday, February 05, 2014

Slate: Baseball’s First Black Player Lived His Life as a White Man

The William Edward White story…

Until she was contacted last month, White’s only grandchild, Lois De Angelis, said her family had been unaware of White’s role in baseball history, and of his racial background. De Angelis, who is 74 years old and lives in Grayslake, Ill., said she knew that her grandfather worked as an artist and had been published in the Saturday Evening Post or another magazine, and that he was separated from her grandmother, who worked as a secretary for Sears. Beyond that, De Angelis said she knew nothing about William Edward White.

White’s wife, Hattie, lived until 1970. De Angelis doubted that Hattie would have known White was one-quarter black, at least before they were married. “My grandmother was very prudish, very English,” she said. Neither Hattie nor De Angelis’ mother, Vera, ever mentioned why Hattie and White had separated, De Angelis said. Perhaps, she speculated, White left the household because Hattie discovered his racial history. “That’s funny when I think of my grandmother,” De Angelis said. “She would die if she knew it.”

So where does that leave William Edward White? Baseball pioneer or baseball footnote? When he trotted out to first base at Messer Street Grounds in Providence, White may have been the only person who knew that a black man was playing in the big leagues. And even that assumes White thought about the fact that he was black, or even partly black. In the racially bifurcated America of the times, “you were black or you were white,” Hobbs says. If no one else knew—if society couldn’t respond and react—it’s reasonable to question whether White should be recognized as the first African-American major-leaguer.

Or maybe that’s a distinction without a difference. American history and its precision-loving subset of baseball history are filled with the sort of ambiguity that complicates the search for convenient, ironclad “firsts.” This much is indisputable: On June 21, 1879, a man born a slave in Georgia played in a major-league baseball game. A black man named White played for the Grays. Factually and figuratively, that seems right. And it seems worth celebrating.

Repoz Posted: February 05, 2014 at 07:57 AM | 740 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: history

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 4 of 8 pages ‹ First  < 2 3 4 5 6 >  Last ›
   301. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: February 10, 2014 at 02:04 PM (#4654348)
Made it, Ma! Top of the page!
   302. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: February 10, 2014 at 02:22 PM (#4654362)
Goodfellas, I think, doesn't exist except in counterpoint to the Godfather films and other Mafia epics.


Minor quibble with that theory, unlike most other Mafia epics, especially including the GF films, Goodfellas was practically a documentary, the characters were based on real life people (cleaned up quite a bit), and the events portrayed were based on real life events concerning those people.
   303. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 10, 2014 at 02:30 PM (#4654375)
.i think these lists are great for opening up discussion

That, and telling us about films we've never even heard of, let alone seen.

but kind of pointless in terms of ranking the "best" of anything, in my own personal top ten "8 1/2" is the only one that i agree with them on

I'm not sure I'd put any of their top 10 other than Vertigo in my personal top 10, though Tokyo Story would be very close. I've never even seen 8 1/2, and I wouldn't put 2001 or The Searchers anywhere near the top 1,000. I can also think of at least half a dozen Kurosawas I'd rather watch over and over than The Seven Samurai, even though in cinematic terms it may well be his "best" movie.

-----------------------------------------

Made it, Ma! Top of the page!

That wins at least this page of the thread.
   304. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: February 10, 2014 at 02:34 PM (#4654380)
unlike most other Mafia epics, especially including the GF films, Goodfellas was

Isn't "Goodfellas" also a GF film?
   305. simon bedford Posted: February 10, 2014 at 02:41 PM (#4654382)
curious as to what kurisowa you would put at the top of your list nick, ...these lists remind me of a "greatest" novels list, where inexplicably "finnegans wake" was the number 1 choice, a novel thats mostly unreadalbe..
   306. BDC Posted: February 10, 2014 at 02:44 PM (#4654384)
Of course, as noted upthread, the TSPDT list is less an actual ranking than a sort of intersection of a lot of rankings. No individual or even committee discussed the relative merits of 8½ and La Dolce Vita, and in fact that they both appear in the top 40 means they're both discussed as classics by a heck of a lot of writers.

I'm not sure my top ten would match the TSPDT except perhaps in Citizen Kane (sorry for being predictable, Andy :) I haven't really thought about a Top Ten films in a while. Fitzcarraldo, Z, Pulp Fiction, Casablanca, The Maltese Falcon, Paths of Glory, I gotta get a few more on there, but those are very strong contenders. They're all on that TSPDT thousand somewhere, I'm hardly going to quibble over where. Groundhog Day is very high at TSPDT, #271 – I very much agree. It's become an important film for intellectuals, as well as funny and charming unless Bill Murray drives you out of your living wits as he does some people I know.

   307. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: February 10, 2014 at 03:21 PM (#4654400)
Top-rated comedies on the TSPDT list (the first half, anyway):

#16-- Singin' in the Rain (sort of)
#29-- City Lights
#35-- Some Like It Hot
#43-- Modern Times
#48-- Dr. Strangelove
#55-- Playtime
#63-- The Gold Rush
#71-- The Apartment (partly)
#97-- Annie Hall

#103-- Sherlock Jr.
#107-- To Be or Not to Be
#110-- Bringing Up Baby
#113-- The Lady Eve
#130-- Manhattan
#140-- Trouble in Paradise
#142-- Duck Soup
#147-- His Girl Friday
#159-- The Great Dictator

#207-- Sullivan's Travels
#210-- Zero for Conduct (maybe)
#220-- Brazil (partly)
#224-- The Big Lebowski
#230-- Crimes and Misdemeanors (partly)
#238-- The Quiet Man (partly)
#244-- The Graduate
#253-- The Shop Around the Corner (mostly)
#268-- Fargo (somewhat)
#271-- Groundhog Day
#276-- It Happened One Night
#291-- The Philadelphia Story
#293-- Harold and Maude
#297-- The King of Comedy (vaguely)

#304-- Mr. Hulot's Holiday
#324-- The Kid
#326-- The Palm Beach Story
#329-- Network
#344-- This is Spinal Tap
#386-- Back to the Future
#393-- A Night at the Opera
#400-- The Cameraman

#411-- Steamboat Bill Jr.
#438-- Boudu Saved from Drowning
#440-- Tootsie
#443-- Toy Story
#447-- Monty Python's Life of Brian
#449-- Miracle in Milan
#498-- The Awful Truth
   308. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 10, 2014 at 03:34 PM (#4654407)
curious as to what kurosawa you would put at the top of your list nick,

Top 3 would be Red Beard, The Bad Sleep Well, and High and Low. All three of those would be in my all time top 50 or maybe even top 25.

Then the next group would be Stray Dog, Drunken Angel, and Scandal. Those would all be in my top 100. There's no other director for whom I'd have that many movies that high up.

Then Throne of Blood. Then The Seven Samurai. As I said, it's purely a matter of preference, and I've yet to see a Kurosawa / Mifune collaboration I wouldn't put in at least my top 300 or 400.

Of course the more movies anyone sees, the more he's going to keep revising his "best" list. 5 years ago I'd probably have put Casablanca in my all time top 10. Now it might not even make my top 100, not because I like it less but simply because I've finally been getting to see what else has been out there all along. I can't believe the number of great films I've seen since I closed my shop and had time to see the full range of what TCM and Netflix have to offer. Talk about revelations.

   309. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: February 10, 2014 at 03:41 PM (#4654412)
#344-- This is Spinal Tap


You know what always struck me as odd about Spinal Tap? The music, seriously, the lyrics were absurdly lame and puerile even for that musical genre, but the music wasn't bad (for that genre)

Nigel gave me a drawing that said 18 inches. Now, whether or not he knows the difference between feet and inches is not my problem. I do what I'm told.

But you're not as confused as him are you. I mean, it's not your job to be as confused as Nigel.
   310. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 10, 2014 at 03:42 PM (#4654413)
Top-rated comedies on the TSPDT list (the first half, anyway):

IMO that comedy list shows the one weakness of the TSPDT rankings: Exposure bias. I've never met a single person, young or old and everything in between, who's seen Fernandel's The Sheep Has Five Legs, and hasn't said it was in the top half dozen comedies they'd ever seen. But you have to wonder how many of the people making those rankings have even been exposed to this now 62 year old movie that didn't even show up as a DVD until a year or two ago.
   311. Morty Causa Posted: February 10, 2014 at 06:26 PM (#4654492)
My list would have a lot less foreign films and lost more comedies, noir/detective/suspense, and westerns.

Foreign films cannot be fully appreciated unless you are familiar with, or immerse in, or, best of all, from the culture. I think it's absurd to pretend otherwise. It's a limitation is purely all mine, but there it is. Some fans (including critics and scholars) overvalue foreign films, simply in reaction to American dominance. You might say they engage in imaginative over-collaboration with the film and its creators. They so much wanted to be something special, something American film is woefully lacking, that their wishful thinking enhances their appreciation.

If we could have a discussion outside the box on BoaN, this would have a bearing. Since we can't, though, this doesn't mean I can't appreciate Throne of Blood, Seven Samurai, or The Hidden Fortress (for one thing, they are pre-eminently dramas that come camouflaged as action movies), but Ikiru takes some forbearance for a western movie-goer (movies are supposed to move, goddammit). Don't even get me started on Ozu or Satyajit Ray.

The same thing applies to Western non-English--to a lesser degree, though. Bunuel is a great film maker of ideas through a narrative. Renoir's humanity is laudable and he often touches a chord. Same with Truffault, Godard, etc., but there is reason those guys as critics considered American film making the apex, and Hollywood directors really great artists. For this, we should be thankful, since we took them for granted (with some exceptions) before their influence.

Luckily (and maybe it's only my luck), John Ford awarded Kurosawa with his baseball cap (which he wore until it rotted off his head).

Besides dissing the genres, especially American comedies, and especially screwball, which includes great musical comedies, those lists need to be separated into silent era and talkie era. Kind of like with MLB.

   312. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: February 10, 2014 at 06:36 PM (#4654501)
Mr. Hulot's Holiday


I saw it, or at least the first half. To the extent that it has humor, that humor is the driest of dry humor. There is no way that any part of the movie will elicit a guffaw. Maybe it's supposed to be sophisticated humor.
   313. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: February 10, 2014 at 06:46 PM (#4654503)
Foreign films cannot be fully appreciated unless you are familiar with, or immerse in, or, best of all, from the culture. I think it's absurd to pretend otherwise. It's a limitation is purely all mine, but there it is. Some fans (including critics and scholars) overvalue foreign films, simply in reaction to American dominance.


My wife watches a lot of Chinese films(and other Asian films- esp Korean), some translate, some do not- war movies translate very well a bad war movie is bad war movie, a good one is a good one, crime movies do not translate as well as you'd think. Romances/comedies, just baffling, no idea if good/bad if the dubbing or subtitling has effed something up. Korean soaps are just like US soaps, they all suck...
   314. Morty Causa Posted: February 10, 2014 at 06:59 PM (#4654508)
The biggest stumbling block to being able to give foreign movies their full due is that they are in a foreign language. Language, as a basic, is second tier from sex and eating. If you are not one with the culture and do not know the language, you ain't getting it. Now, if some would put their pretensions in this regard so as to apply to a mere historical perspecdtive...but, oh, no, that's ridiculous. Try and understand the past from more than one more take on a view--that's crazy.
   315. God Posted: February 10, 2014 at 07:07 PM (#4654510)

IMO that comedy list shows the one weakness of the TSPDT rankings: Exposure bias. I've never met a single person, young or old and everything in between, who's seen Fernandel's The Sheep Has Five Legs, and hasn't said it was in the top half dozen comedies they'd ever seen.


The same goes for Sherlock Jr. They could keep making movies for 500 more years and nobody will ever make a greater comedy than Sherlock Jr. But it's only #103 on the list because so few people have seen it.
   316. Greg K Posted: February 10, 2014 at 07:13 PM (#4654513)
Humour does seem like one of the more difficult things to translate across historical/cultural lines. I suppose because so much of it can depend on clever use (or mis-use) of language. Also delivery is so crucial*, and can depend on the culturally constructed language of body. Not to mention some great comedy pokes fun at social structures, which can be almost impossible for an outsider to even recognize as a joke.

As a result, I'm endlessly fascinated by humour throughout history, even if most of the time I don't get it.


*I suppose delivery is important in any dramaturgical act, but it seems like when someone fails to tell a story well and falls back on "you had to be there", it's almost always a funny story (or an attempt at one). You don't often get that when you're telling a dramatic story. Or maybe people are just too polite to say "meh, that story does nothing for me" when you tell them your aunt died .
   317. Morty Causa Posted: February 10, 2014 at 07:20 PM (#4654516)
The same goes for Sherlock Jr. They could keep making movies for 500 more years and nobody will ever make a greater comedy than Sherlock Jr. But it's only #103 on the list because so few people have seen it.

With me, I never tire of Seven Chances. Just thinking about it makes me laugh.

Griffith regretted the introduction of sound, of speech anyway. He thought it a step backward.

"To me, Intolerance recalls Mr. Griffith's words: 'We have gone beyond Babel, beyond words. We have found a universal language, a power that can make men brothers and end war forever. Remember that! Remember that when you stand in front of a camera!'" That's Lillian Gish in her memoirs. He was probably more of a child than those, to the outrage of the refined, he condescended toward.
   318. Lassus Posted: February 10, 2014 at 07:35 PM (#4654521)
Top-rated comedies on the TSPDT list (the first half, anyway):

IMO!

Duck Soup and Night at the Opera way way way too low.

Crimes and Misdemeanors is not a comedy. Neither is Brazil


   319. Jay Z Posted: February 10, 2014 at 07:36 PM (#4654523)
You know what always struck me as odd about Spinal Tap? The music, seriously, the lyrics were absurdly lame and puerile even for that musical genre, but the music wasn't bad (for that genre)


There were a lot of bands that started out in the late 1960s that managed 10+ albums while not being very good, and only having a couple of songs that anyone remotely remembers. Nazareth, Uriah Heep, Foghat... this is to say nothing of guys like Steve Miller, Bob Seger, and Ted Nugent, who were 7-8 albums into their careers before they really hit the big time. Most bands played to more of a "general rock" audience, without all of the genres that came later. Bands would have hits, and the rest of the album with the hits would be in different genres and sound nothing like the hit.

Spinal Tap was supposed to be one of these second tier bands like Nazareth and Uriah Heep. And yes, the music is listenable enough. I've even seen "real life" lyrics that approach the profound stupidity of Spinal Tap. "Some stupid with a flare gun?!?"
   320. Jay Z Posted: February 10, 2014 at 07:38 PM (#4654525)
I'd put Goodfellas above the Godfathers because whatever their artistic qualities, the Godfathers are simply pure hokum on a personal level. Rather have something approaching the truth.

Only wish Pesci's character had gotten a more gruesome death. He deserved worse than a shot in the back. I guess in the book he was tortured to death.
   321. Morty Causa Posted: February 10, 2014 at 08:15 PM (#4654534)
IMO that comedy list shows the one weakness of the TSPDT rankings: Exposure bias. I've never met a single person, young or old and everything in between, who's seen Fernandel's The Sheep Has Five Legs, and hasn't said it was in the top half dozen comedies they'd ever seen.

Well, I don't know how wide your canvas is, but check out IMDB. It's rating is not that impressive, and that indicates viewers weren't uniformly favorable even.
   322. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: February 10, 2014 at 09:23 PM (#4654555)
check out IMDB. It's rating is not that impressive, and that indicates viewers weren't uniformly favorable even.

There's no obligation to rate a film on IMDB with sincerity, or even to have seen it at all. Although I can believe that the whopping 325 votes for "The Sheep Has Five Legs" might all be genuine viewers, as opposed to the 69,000+ who have given crushing ratings to Justin Bieber's documentary, let alone the 7,000+ votes for the "Robocop" remake that hasn't opened in theaters yet.

With me, I never tire of Seven Chances. Just thinking about it makes me laugh.

"Seven Chances" is genius. But there's one jarring gag that has some relevance to the "Birth of a Nation" discussion. In "Seven Chances," Buster Keaton has to be married by 7:00 PM or he loses a fortune. He spends much of the movie trying to find a woman, any woman, willing to meet and marry him on the spot. In one scene, he starts trailing a potential candidate walking down the street. But just as he gets close, the camera angle shifts, we see that the woman is black, Keaton sees it too, and he immediately drops back and abandons the pursuit with humorously studied nonchalance.
   323. Morty Causa Posted: February 10, 2014 at 09:37 PM (#4654562)
"Seven Chances" is genius. But there's one jarring gag that has some relevance to the "Birth of a Nation" discussion.

Yep. And there are some pretty horrendous looking babes, too. Some fatties and giants even.

And don't forget his white assistant in blackface.

There's no obligation to rate a film on IMDB with sincerity, or even to have seen it at all.

I imagine that applies to lists by film institutes, too. Or, even, of opinions here.
   324. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: February 10, 2014 at 09:59 PM (#4654566)
There's also a gag revolving around Julian Eltinge, which doesn't read easily for current audiences unless they know who Julian Eltinge was. But a movie could do the same kind of joke today. The "unthinkable!" one about the black woman, not so much.
   325. Juilin Sandar to Conkling Speedwell (Arjun) Posted: February 10, 2014 at 10:06 PM (#4654567)
The biggest stumbling block to being able to give foreign movies their full due is that they are in a foreign language. Language, as a basic, is second tier from sex and eating. If you are not one with the culture and do not know the language, you ain't getting it.

I'm curious here: I'm Indian, I've lived in India, and I'm of Punjabi descent, from New Delhi (with both sides of my family pre-Partition from Lahore). That's great, and implies that I speak a few different languages, but, somewhat obviously, Bengali isn't among them (neither are any Dravidian languages, unsurprisingly). Does this mean that I am not able to fully understand a Satyajit Ray or Ritwik Ghatak movie? The culture and journey portrayed films like the Apu Trilogy, Charulata, or Meghe Dhaka Tara are mine; in many cases, these are stories I recognise or can associate with, but, unlike when I'm watching a Guru Datt movie, I need subtitles. Beyond that, the language has changed: the Hindi I speak is often entirely different from the rural Hindi spoken in parts of something like Do Bigha Zameen (though, for many older films, this isn't a problem. A better example here is something like Omkara, which is largely incomprehensible to me) or the Urdu in Garam Hawa, so often I need subtitles even for a film spoken in what is ostensibly "my language," despite the fact that this is very much a story I recognise (there are family anecdotes about individuals who faced the same dilemmas as the characters in Garam Hawa, for example, though obviously in the other direction). I don't mean to be insulting or anything - I'm just curious as to where you draw the line with respect to language, culture, and cinema.
   326. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 10, 2014 at 10:46 PM (#4654578)
Foreign films cannot be fully appreciated unless you are familiar with, or immerse in, or, best of all, from the culture. I think it's absurd to pretend otherwise. It's a limitation is purely all mine, but there it is. Some fans (including critics and scholars) overvalue foreign films, simply in reaction to American dominance. You might say they engage in imaginative over-collaboration with the film and its creators. They so much wanted to be something special, something American film is woefully lacking, that their wishful thinking enhances their appreciation.

In a word: Bullshit. All you're doing there is taking your own preferences and pretending they're universal. You don't have to have what you'd consider artsy-fartsy pretensions to appreciate films like Open City, Kapo, Bicycle Thieves, Germany: Year Zero, Come and See, The Sheep Has Five Legs, Diabolique, The 400 Blows, M, The Blue Angel, Touchez Pas au Grisbi, Rififi, Elevator to the Gallows, Angi Vera, Tokyo Story, I Was Born, But..., Mississippi Mermaid, Bay of Angels, The Bad Sleep Well, Red Beard, High and Low, and hundreds of other films that yes, force you to read (GASP!) SUBTITLES. (Oh, the humanity!)

All you need is a capacity for enjoyment, an interest in the subject matter, and a mind whose openness goes beyond empathizing with Klansmen, which seems to have been your pet rabbit as of late. If you can't appreciate the movies on that above list, I feel just as sorry for you as you'd likely feel for me when I say that I'd put a torch to Yankee Doodle Dandy, put a bullet up John Wayne's ass, and use 2001: A Space Odyssey as a sleeping pill. Tastes are personal and subjective, and there's no way to change them other than through ever-increasing exposure.

American film is like any other film. It's got its high spots and its low spots. And yes, much of the reason that my "top 100" list (if I had actually made one) would likely consist of nearly half foreign films is that over here we get exposed to the cream and not the dregs. But just because most (not all) genres originated over here doesn't mean that first means best, in movies any more than in baseball.

-------------------------------------------------

Humour does seem like one of the more difficult things to translate across historical/cultural lines. I suppose because so much of it can depend on clever use (or mis-use) of language. Also delivery is so crucial*, and can depend on the culturally constructed language of body. Not to mention some great comedy pokes fun at social structures, which can be almost impossible for an outsider to even recognize as a joke.

As a result, I'm endlessly fascinated by humour throughout history, even if most of the time I don't get it.


Tell you what: The Sheep Has Five Legs is $9.99 (new) on Amazon. You buy it and watch it, and if you don't agree it's one of the better comedies you've ever seen, subtitles and all, you can sell it to me for what you paid for it, no questions asked. The humor in that movie is as universal as Chaplin's, only Fernandel is much funnier than anything Chaplin did after the original (silent) version of The Gold Rush. (Not the pretentious "enhanced" 1942 version, which was like pouring sugar on a steak.)
   327. PreservedFish Posted: February 10, 2014 at 11:25 PM (#4654589)
Foreign films cannot be fully appreciated unless you are familiar with, or immerse in, or, best of all, from the culture.


I think this subject is so large that it will necessarily reject such a summary. I can think of a million ways that this is correct, and a million ways that it is wrong.
   328. Morty Causa Posted: February 10, 2014 at 11:39 PM (#4654594)
In a word: Bullshit. All you're doing there is taking your own preferences and pretending they're universal. You don't have to have what you'd consider artsy-fartsy pretensions to appreciate films like Open City, Kapo, Bicycle Thieves, Germany: Year Zero, Come and See, The Sheep Has Five Legs, Diabolique, The 400 Blows, M, The Blue Angel, Touchez Pas au Grisbi, Rififi, Elevator to the Gallows, Angi Vera, Tokyo Story, I Was Born, But..., Mississippi Mermaid, Bay of Angels, The Bad Sleep Well, Red Beard, High and Low, and hundreds of other films that yes, force you to read (GASP!) SUBTITLES. (Oh, the humanity!)

Well, back at you.

But, take your head out your ass and read: I never wrote you couldn't appreciate. I wrote you couldn't appreciate it fully in the way someone of that culture could. Jeeze, chill, boomstick cowboy. I would think that would go almost with saying.

Subtitles do not (never ever) represent what is being said. (And for that matter, neither does dubbing.)

Do you seriously think that someone from another country and another culture grok, say, The Public Enemy or The Searchers or The Big Sleep or His Girl Friday in the way that we do?

Most of the rest of your post continues in your insistence on missing the point.

You buy it and watch it, and if you don't agree it's one of the better comedies you've ever seen,

Classic crawfishing. You originally said what? Now, you say this?

   329. Morty Causa Posted: February 10, 2014 at 11:40 PM (#4654595)
I think this subject is so large that it will necessarily reject such a summary. I can think of a million ways that this is correct, and a million ways that it is wrong.

Fully appreciated as someone from that culture would appreciate it.
   330. Morty Causa Posted: February 10, 2014 at 11:46 PM (#4654599)
I've seen plenty of black racists in my lifetime. I didn't see any of them in The Birth of a Nation. Did you?

Having revived from my swoon at this admission (although it might be fruitful if you wouldn’t actually explore that), let me encourage you to really think about itYou’re saying you didn’t see blacks portrayed as racist in the movie. Try harder.

They rooted for Cagney because he was glamorous and exciting.

That’s a non-answer. You need to delve further. Critical analysis of the socio-political sort abound, and it called to people then on those terms. I remember like this book a lot: http://www.amazon.com/City-Boys-Cagney-Bogart-Garfield/dp/0691047952

I think you’re intentionally being superficial, even philistine.

And what does that tell you about the way various people, and groups of people, reacted to The Birth of a Nation?

Not much, since there was no political point being made in Cagney's movies, whereas the point being made in The Birth of a Nation was 200 proof political propaganda.

Yes, there was. There was good deal of discussion, both in print and in the matter of government hearings about the gangster films. Gangster films were the Sci Fi/Westerns of the ‘30s. There was a lot of controversy, a lot of conversation. See Ian Hamilton’s Writers in Hollywood 1915-1951. Writers then (and now) have social views (how could they not?), and they certainly tried to imbue movies with those view. There were even rather notorious government hearings about, culminating in black lists and the like.

So what do you think Agee meant by "all its imperfections and absurdities"?

The same as what I would mean: it’s not perfect and some of it is absurd. But, he thought it a great movie. So did MacDonald, and so did Ebert. So did Kael, and so did any critic or film scholar who has an ounce of critical acumen and a taint of objectivity.

Good book on BoaN. Supports the thesis that it is both great and racist, so of course that will not satisfy some.
   331. Monty Posted: February 10, 2014 at 11:52 PM (#4654600)
so did any critic or film scholar who has an ounce of critical acumen and a taint of objectivity.


The only way to make that be true is to indulge in a lot of No True Scotsman-ing. Remember what I said about your tendency to insist that there's a complete critical consensus on your side?
   332. PreservedFish Posted: February 11, 2014 at 12:02 AM (#4654602)
Do you seriously think that someone from another country and another culture grok, say, The Public Enemy or The Searchers or The Big Sleep or His Girl Friday in the way that we do?


As a 32-year old American, I generally find it much easier to identify with the characters of contemporary foreign film than I do the characters of classic Hollywood, who belong to a world of mores that are entirely bizarre to me.

If your claim is right, Morty, then I would argue that there are very few people on earth today that can "fully appreciate" movies like the ones you list above. In fact, I think it's probably true.
   333. Morty Causa Posted: February 11, 2014 at 12:02 AM (#4654603)
BTW, Ian Hamilton's Writers in Hollywood 1915-1951 is one of the best histories of moviemaking I've ever read. Well researched and presented well, with many anecdotes about screenwriters and famous writers (like Fitzgerald and Faulkner) who thought they were there only for the ride and the money. It's a fun read. It's good on how writers tried to express their social and political views ("Dialectical Materialism by the pool..."). A soupçon of quotes at random:

Ben Hecht: "A movie is never better than the stupidest man connected with it."
H.L. Mencken: "If Los Angeles is not the authentic rectum of civilization, then I am no anatomist."
Jack Warner: "I don't want it good. I want it Tuesday." And: "I would rather take a fifty mile hike than crawl through a book."
Sam Goldwyn: "I read part of it all the way through."
And my favorite (David O. Selznick to Mankiewicz): "Write whatever you like as long as there's a love scene and the girl jumps in the volcano at the end."
   334. Morty Causa Posted: February 11, 2014 at 12:05 AM (#4654605)
332:

My claim has to do with
   335. Morty Causa Posted: February 11, 2014 at 12:10 AM (#4654608)
332:

Is it your position that acculturation has no bearing on your understanding of movies (or pretty much anything else)?

Just in the interest of how far obstinacy will carry you: Do you think a translation of Huckleberry Finn is the same as the original?
   336. PreservedFish Posted: February 11, 2014 at 12:37 AM (#4654612)
Morty, I'm not being obstinate. I actually agree with you!

Do you think a translation of Huckleberry Finn is the same as the original?


No, it absolutely isn't. And I think it's a shame that, even if I devoted the rest of my life to the Russian language, I probably would never be able to enjoy Pushkin on the same level as a native speaker.

However ... I really do not believe that having been born in America grants me a special ability to appreciate a 1937 gangster flick. Maybe over an Armenian 32 year old, a relative advantage, sure. But the Hollywood of that era is a world that is so culturally distant from my own that it puts up a greater barrier to understanding than would the language of a French movie released yesterday.

The foreignness of those movies is especially felt when they are screwball comedies, romances, the type of stuff that you love so much. Comedies of manners.
   337. Greg K Posted: February 11, 2014 at 12:38 AM (#4654613)
There's also a gag revolving around Julian Eltinge, which doesn't read easily for current audiences unless they know who Julian Eltinge was. But a movie could do the same kind of joke today. The "unthinkable!" one about the black woman, not so much.

If I recall correctly in His Girl Friday Cary Grant says that the girl's fiance looks like Ralph Bellamy. Since I didn't know who the hell that was I looked him up, and Ralph Bellamy was actually playing the guy Grant calls Ralph Bellamy. Which I suppose is a clever little joke for anyone who knows who the hell Ralph Bellamy is (I imagine more people knew in 1940 than today).
   338. Greg K Posted: February 11, 2014 at 12:45 AM (#4654616)
Tell you what: The Sheep Has Five Legs is $9.99 (new) on Amazon. You buy it and watch it, and if you don't agree it's one of the better comedies you've ever seen, subtitles and all, you can sell it to me for what you paid for it, no questions asked. The humor in that movie is as universal as Chaplin's, only Fernandel is much funnier than anything Chaplin did after the original (silent) version of The Gold Rush. (Not the pretentious "enhanced" 1942 version, which was like pouring sugar on a steak.)

Oh I'm not disputing that humour can travel across historical or cultural boundaries. I thought Tristram Shandy was hilarious. I just mean comedy seems to not make the translation more often than drama.

I suspect Morty's point re: foreign films is akin to someone saying you have to read War and Peace in Russian to really appreciate it. I'd have a hard time saying that's wrong exactly...but I can still have a great time with my translation.
   339. God Posted: February 11, 2014 at 12:47 AM (#4654617)
If I recall correctly in His Girl Friday Cary Grant says that the girl's fiance looks like Ralph Bellamy. Since I didn't know who the hell that was I looked him up, and Ralph Bellamy was actually playing the guy Grant calls Ralph Bellamy. Which I suppose is a clever little joke for anyone who knows who the hell Ralph Bellamy is (I imagine more people knew in 1940 than today).

There's another clever little joke in His Girl Friday where Cary Grant says, "I never had so much fun since Archie Leach died!" Archie Leach was, of course, Cary Grant's real name.

What a great movie. Damn.
   340. Monty Posted: February 11, 2014 at 12:51 AM (#4654618)
I just mean comedy seems to not make the translation more often than drama.


Have you ever read a really old joke book? Those things are savagely unfunny. A lot of the time, you can't even figure out what the joke is supposed to me. I love me some Robert Benchley, but a lot of his contemporaries have not aged well at all.
   341. Morty Causa Posted: February 11, 2014 at 01:01 AM (#4654619)
I suspect Morty's point re: foreign films is akin to someone saying you have to read War and Peace in Russian to really appreciate it. I'd have a hard time saying that's wrong exactly...but I can still have a great time with my translation

And I do, too. That was not the point. I love Ezra Pound's translations of Chinese poetry. How much of that is due to Pound and how much to the original Chinese works, though? Some translations, in fact, amount to real quality works of art in and of themselves, at least I am told. Dryden and Pope's translations of Virgil and Homer. Richard Wilbur in more recent times did a wonderfully witty translation of Moliere. The original translation of Gunter Grass's The Tin Drum I really liked (it's been many years). ETC. But what I am appreciating in appreciating those translations is not what people who have grown up in a culture, and have the history of a culture, behind them are appreciating. The two cannot be co-extensive. If they are, then culture means nothing. I'm surprised that so many who place such importance on culture in other conversations we've had here take such pains to deny or modify it to insignificance.

   342. PreservedFish Posted: February 11, 2014 at 01:04 AM (#4654620)
What's the oldest thing you've ever read that's genuinely, laugh out loud funny? Has one of us here laughed out loud reading Aristophanes?

I have this great memory of an English professor of mine reading aloud a comic poem by Alexander Pope and laughing so hard that he needed to gasp for air, while the class looked on bewildered.
   343. PreservedFish Posted: February 11, 2014 at 01:05 AM (#4654621)
Oh snap, two Alexander Pope references in a row.
   344. Morty Causa Posted: February 11, 2014 at 01:06 AM (#4654622)
What a great movie. Damn.

It's good to know the Deity can get something right. Absolutely a movie that amounts to almost an experience in and of itself. All the components are wonderful. If I had to be stranded on the proverbial desert island, and there was a receptacle in the sand and I could only take, say, two movies, I think they might be His Girl Friday and Bringing Up Baby, both directed by Hawks and starring Grant. They are just joys, endlessly re-watchable.
   345. God Posted: February 11, 2014 at 01:08 AM (#4654624)
What's the oldest thing you've ever read that's genuinely, laugh out loud funny? Has one of us here laughed out loud reading Aristophanes?


For me, I guess it's something by Mark Twain. Either that or "A Modest Proposal." I've laughed at some individual Shakespeare lines but I don't think I'd call any of his works (that I've read) laugh-out-loud funny.
   346. Monty Posted: February 11, 2014 at 01:18 AM (#4654627)
I think I found some things in Don Quixote really funny, but I don't know how much of that was the translator. For things in English, I think Twain is as far back as my sense of humor stretches.
   347. Morty Causa Posted: February 11, 2014 at 01:21 AM (#4654628)
Pope's The Rape of the Lock is funny. As is Dryden's Mac Flecknoe. Pope with the scalpel, Dryden with the butcher's cleaver. Decades ago in college I read a translation of Voltaire's Candide that was quiet funny. Sheridan's The Rivals is very funny (except for the Julia/Faulkland bit). And then, like I said, Wilbur's Moliere translations.

Twain is still fresh and modern for the most part. Thurber, Perelman, as well as Benchley are still funny. And of course Wodehouse, and some of his stuff is over a hundred years old. Peter De Vries, at his best, is still funny. Read Comfort Me With Apples (white comedy) and Let Me Count the Ways (darker comedy). They're about fifty years ago. Catch 22 is still hilarious. Waugh's Scoop. Kingsley Amis's Lucky Jim and Stanley and the Women.
   348. Morty Causa Posted: February 11, 2014 at 01:51 AM (#4654637)
Lewis Carroll's two Alice books are still very funny, as is The Wind in the Willows. Jerome K. Jerome's Three Men in a Boat: To Say Nothing of the Dog, which I've only read in the last couple of years, is another.
   349. Dr. Vaux Posted: February 11, 2014 at 03:00 AM (#4654640)
It's funny, as a 34 year-old American, I find the world of "classic Hollywood" a lot more comprehensible than the one that just about anybody younger than me is apparently living in. And I've never heard anyone older than me describe the '30s as incomprehensible. So has the amount of historical literature and culture children are exposed to changed dramatically in the past 15 years? Ding ding, I think maybe we have our answer. Sad.
   350. God Posted: February 11, 2014 at 03:17 AM (#4654641)
Old people always think that people younger than them have been exposed to less literature and culture than them. Maybe it's true, or maybe it's just that they've been exposed to different literature and culture. In any case, it's kind of another version of Bill James's "old ballplayers never die" meme.
   351. bobm Posted: February 11, 2014 at 06:44 AM (#4654646)
Which I suppose is a clever little joke for anyone who knows who the hell Ralph Bellamy is (I imagine more people knew in 1940 than today).

Randolph Duke!
   352. Alex meets the threshold for granular review Posted: February 11, 2014 at 06:45 AM (#4654647)
Damn it, I always miss the movie threads...time to go back through this.
   353. Dr. Vaux Posted: February 11, 2014 at 07:24 AM (#4654650)
That's why I said "historical literature and culture," meaning "from the past." That is to say, I read lots of books from the 19th and early 20th centuries when I was growing up. I'll bet PreservedFish didn't.
   354. Alex meets the threshold for granular review Posted: February 11, 2014 at 07:27 AM (#4654651)
Just gonna say, based on the dozen-ish D.W. Griffith shorts I've seen, plus Broken Blossoms (haven't seen Birth of a Nation or Intolerance, quite frankly can't work up the motivation to see either), I think Gonfalon nails him. I should probably get around to watching Birth...but bleh. I'm on a horror kick right now anyway, next up: Dressed to Kill!

I don't think this is so. It's a completely first person account, how can it have an opinion towards his subject? I'd argue it glamorizes him as we see him being called a hero in the end (even though that was most likely his dying dream).

It's just that we can tell implicitly that his actions are morally wrong ipso facto.


But why is an implicit condemnation of Travis Bickle any less a condemnation? Taxi Driver's great strength is that it's empathetic towards a character who is portrayed as disturbed, homicidal, racist, paternalistic/misogynist, and socially awkward - but that doesn't mean it doesn't recognize that he is all of those things. (I adore Taxi Driver, and Scorsese in general.)

Yes. All great epics have filler you wish had been excluded, whether that's The Iliad, Paradise Lost, Moby Dick, or Seven Samurai.


Whoa, speak for yourself, I wouldn't cut a frame of Seven Samurai. Then again, I hardly think of it as an epic. It's a wonderful, intimate adventure film - that happens to run 3.5 hours long. My opinion on what should be cut vs. what shouldn't might not be the most stringent, though, given that Sátántangó ranks in my top three. I'm curious what you'd want excised.

I'd include Melancholia as another one in that category, as from the best I could tell that was simply 2 hours of Lars von Trier trying to convince everyone that depressed people are inherently superior to the rest of us.


I'm torn between two interpretations of Melancholia. A) As a metaphor for depression itself, in which Dunst's crippling depression makes it seem as if the world is literally ending, in which case, I'm not seeing an endorsement for the superiority of depressed people; or, B) As nihilistic, in which case, if nothing else, Dunst's depression makes her better prepared to handle the (literal) end of the world. So if you take the second reading, yeah, I can see how that'd not jibe with a lot of people.

I try not to complain much about lists, because they are completely subjective, meant to drive views, everyone has their own opinion, etc. But any list that claims that "Mulholland Dr." as the 69th best movie of all time is going to lose a lot of credibility.


I agree. Having it any lower than, say...10th is utter nonsense. :-)

It's an interesting list. I'm not really a big fan of the solemn, humorless strain of European art cinema. I can't help but doubt the motivations of anyone that ranks Last Year at Marienbad above Star Wars.


I've seen Last Year at Marienbad six times now: the first time I watched it, I immediately started it over again; the third time I saw it in a theater, and went home that night and watched it again; and the fifth time, I watched it again the next night. I assure you my motivations are pure as the driven snow, no posing here, and to convince you on that front I'll offer the fact that I love Avatar and have seen it, oh, ten times.

Oh, yeah, I kinda found it, NOT a film I think is crap, but one I think that is just entertaining popcorn care as opposed to a work of cinematic art of note: "Goodfellas", #99. I mean, entertaining, well-made, polished. But, that's it. Not top 100 material.


GoodFellas is about the best argument possible for an incredibly polished work of sheer entertainment ranking with the all-time greats. It's built to move, and move it does. Very few films captivate me from start to finish like that one. Man, y'all need to stop hating on my favorites...

I started down the list looking for the top film I'd come to that I thought was actively bad, as opposed to just "didn't grab me" or "bit of a tasteful yawner." Came up sooner than I'd thought, with Contempt at #37. I just found that picture embarrassing. Jack Palance is terribly miscast and just plain terrible. The whole ruminative theme with Fritz Lang contemplating the cinema is dull. And any film that features Brigitte Bardot undressed and still manages to bore you has achieved a lot.


Okay, this one I disagree with as well but I'm utterly sympathetic.

These lists never catch on that it's harder to produce a "Blazing Saddles" or "Duck Soup" than an "Au Hasard Balthazar" or "Passion of Joan of Arc."


Your greater point is appreciated, but in the specific case of film as art, it's worth pointing out that: jeez, Blazing Saddles is an ugly-ass movie. Like, often downright unpleasant to look at. Mel Brooks is a genius comedy writer, but it is a visual medium, so I totally get why the critics are less than enamored with him. Of course, there are great comedies that are sterling examples of cinematic form: the films of Buster Keaton, Woody Allen, Billy Wilder, Martin Scorsese (what is GoodFellas if not an especially black comedy?), the Coen brothers...comedy is ghetto-ized, but what really annoys me is when movies that are clearly comedies are treated as dramas that happen to be funny, which is often the case with the examples I've named (Keaton being the exception). As if great works of art are reducible to a single genre, or as if comedy were incapable of offering dramatic insight. My favorite movie of 2012 was Killer Joe, my favorite of 2013 Spring Breakers: both unconventional comedies, but comedies all the same.

A few nights ago I watched #233 on the TSPDT list, Night of the Living Dead. A very interesting contrast to Birth of a Nation (not least in being a fraction of its length and a tiny scrap of its expense or complexity). A 1968 picture with a black protagonist beseiged in a house by two successive white mobs (who don't care what color he is); at one point he slaps and partially undresses a white woman (completely asexually and for her own good). Is it about race, or not?


Of course it is. That Romero has denied it's about race is as strong an argument for the death of the author that I can think of when it comes to film, and is especially odd given how blunt and obvious the social commentary becomes in Dawn of the Dead and Day of the Dead (both of which I love, nevertheless).

i liked the first two godfather movies alot, not quite as much as some but they were clearly very well made films..i didnt hate goodfellas, i just wouldnt put it in a list of my favorite 100 movies, i am struggling through the tdp list right now, it raises a few issues for me, is 8 1/2 really that much better than "la strada" or " la dolce vita"? are critics forced to pick "seven samuri " as the best Kurisoowa film, just as they usually choose 7th seal as the "best berman film? i thought Ikuru was a far better picture , and i can think of 3 bergmans i liked much more than seventh seal....i think these lists are great for opening up discussion, but kind of pointless in terms of ranking the "best" of anything, in my own personal top ten "8 1/2" is the only one that i agree with them on


For what it's worth I'm a Bergman acolyte and Seventh Seal would be my third-favorite Bergman, but that's only because of the sheer greatness of Fanny and Alexander and Scenes from a Marriage. And yes, in my opinion 8 1/2 dwarfs La Dolce Vita, which I never much cared for.
   355. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 11, 2014 at 07:44 AM (#4654652)
So what do you think Agee meant by "all its imperfections and absurdities"?

The same as what I would mean: it’s not perfect and some of it is absurd. But, he thought it a great movie. So did MacDonald, and so did Ebert. So did Kael, and so did any critic or film scholar who has an ounce of critical acumen and a taint of objectivity.


And so do I. I've called The Birth of a Nation a "great" movie at least 3 or 4 times in this thread alone, and in other threads as well. And yet since I'm not James Agee or Pauline Kael, you seem to ignore it, in order to continue your silly argument about nothing.

Good book on BoaN. Supports the thesis that it is both great and racist, so of course that will not satisfy some.

Jesus, Morty, EVERY ####### time that anyone here has used EXACTLY the same two words to describe BoaN---"great" and "racist"---you've acted as if they've burned your land and stolen your dog. You just love arguing for the sake of arguing.

-------------------------------------------------------

Some fans (including critics and scholars) overvalue foreign films, simply in reaction to American dominance. You might say they engage in imaginative over-collaboration with the film and its creators. They so much wanted to be something special, something American film is woefully lacking, that their wishful thinking enhances their appreciation.

In a word: ########. All you're doing there is taking your own preferences and pretending they're universal. You don't have to have what you'd consider artsy-fartsy pretensions to appreciate films like Open City, Kapo, Bicycle Thieves, Germany: Year Zero, Come and See, The Sheep Has Five Legs, Diabolique, The 400 Blows, M, The Blue Angel, Touchez Pas au Grisbi, Rififi, Elevator to the Gallows, Angi Vera, Tokyo Story, I Was Born, But..., Mississippi Mermaid, Bay of Angels, The Bad Sleep Well, Red Beard, High and Low, and hundreds of other films that yes, force you to read (GASP!) SUBTITLES. (Oh, the humanity!)

Well, back at you.

But, take your head out your ass and read: I never wrote you couldn't appreciate. I wrote you couldn't appreciate it fully in the way someone of that culture could. Jeeze, chill, boomstick cowboy. I would think that would go almost with saying.


I'd be more impressed with this if you hadn't originally gone out of your way to include your little diatribe about the motivations of people who enjoy foreign films.

And while I would certainly agree that some movies don't translate all that well, anyone who gets a copy with clearly printed subtitles of any of the films on that list I made in #326 is not going to find too many "translation" problems due to the language. You can quibble and repeat your point about not being able "fully" to understand them in the way that a native speaker might, but in the cases of movies like these, that just becomes a nitpicking point. It takes far more "translation" for recent generations to "fully" appreciate (and even more, to fully understand) a movie like The Birth of a Nation than it does any of those foreign movies I mentioned above.** The biggest barrier to good foreign movies such as those is simply a resistance to subtitles, or in your case some sort of tribal instinct that manifests itself on every topic from movies to sexual harassment.

**How many current Americans (median birth date 1977; nearly 30% non-white) have "grown up" in a culture that's remotely like the one depicted in American movies of the TCM era, where minorities are largely invisible and the solution to every romantic problem is marriage in the final reel? And anyway, the point of a good movie (or a good book or play or any other form of artistic expression) is to expand a person's sense of "culture", not merely to reinforce it.

   356. Lassus Posted: February 11, 2014 at 08:12 AM (#4654656)
GoodFellas is about the best argument possible for an incredibly polished work of sheer entertainment ranking with the all-time greats.

I suppose. I think many would say the same about Shawshank Redemption, just a lot fewer. I think Goodfellas' ranking en masse has as much to do with the American love affair with the mafia as anything else. That's not invalid, but again, as there are so many films in that genre, I simply never saw the attraction to that one in particular. Hell, in that very genre I'd call Scorsese's Departed (a remake) more compelling as a film.

I also don't find the "based on a true story" worthy of some manner of bonus. Based on a true story is still fiction.
   357. Lassus Posted: February 11, 2014 at 08:18 AM (#4654658)
It's funny, as a 34 year-old American, I find the world of "classic Hollywood" a lot more comprehensible than the one that just about anybody younger than me is apparently living in. And I've never heard anyone older than me describe the '30s as incomprehensible. So has the amount of historical literature and culture children are exposed to changed dramatically in the past 15 years? Ding ding, I think maybe we have our answer. Sad.

If "incomprehensible" doesn't do it for you, how about "less relevant than you imagine?" No? Ah well.
   358. Alex meets the threshold for granular review Posted: February 11, 2014 at 09:57 AM (#4654712)
Shirley Temple passed away. Strange to me for a number of reasons: I had no idea she was still alive, I've never seen in her in anything despite the fact that she's an international icon, and she hit 85 years old and lived what appears to be a very fulfilling life yet will be immortalized forever as an adorable 5-year-old girl. RIP.
   359. Greg K Posted: February 11, 2014 at 10:07 AM (#4654719)
What's the oldest thing you've ever read that's genuinely, laugh out loud funny? Has one of us here laughed out loud reading Aristophanes?

I read Vanity Fair a couple months ago and thought it was really funny. I'm told Rabelais is hilarious, though I've never experienced it myself.

I seem to recall a Rabelais joke used in a Robertson Davies book which essentially went:

Why do women have cold thighs? Because they piss themselves.

It's possible Davies related it incorrectly, far more likely I'm remembering it wrong...but I think I must have missed something there.
   360. BDC Posted: February 11, 2014 at 10:08 AM (#4654720)
What's the oldest thing you've ever read that's genuinely, laugh out loud funny?

A very interesting question. For me, easy to answer: the Decameron. And things certainly do get lost in translation from Boccaccio; there was recently a long rant in The New Yorker by Joan Acocella precisely on how things get lost in translation from Boccaccio, though I'm not sure what she knows about it. But basic farce and sexual humor remain timeless.

A variation on the question is to ask what comedies make you laugh repeatedly, even after you've pretty much memorized them. For me, Airplane and Police Squad; (much of) Monty Python, and Fawlty Towers, and Love & Death. The Marx Brothers, no: I have to spend a long time away and totally forget what's coming.
   361. Greg K Posted: February 11, 2014 at 10:27 AM (#4654730)
Speaking of old timey funny things.

I was at a lecture in January where a historian thought he'd stumbled across a circle of in-jokes among 8th century bishops.

They would pass around manuscripts that were essentially FAQs about canon law between York, Rome, and Charlemagne's court. Generally you would take excerpts from church councils or papal writings of previous centuries to explain how canon law operated in certain situations. However, these references weren't cited or quoted, so it was kind of a test of your colleague's knowledge of church history to know where you were drawing your precedent from. But these guys would take it a step further, for instance in one question the York bishop drew upon language from the church council that had settled the issue. But he didn't use words from the council's decision, which would have been easy, he actually took phrases directly out of the incorrect writing the council had been called to invalidate. Really, only the 5-10 people in the world who knew their canon law would even recognize what he'd done.

Or in another case a question was asked which another council had directly addressed. But this guy drew no language from that council decision, more or less relating the law that had been established at the council in his own words. But in the answer to the very next question (which had nothing to do with the previous one) he borrowed three or four phrases from the council that would have directly answered the first question. As if to say...ah, you probably thought I didn't remember that council well enough to quote from it...but I do!

Anyway, wasn't laugh out loud funny, but kind of cool to see inside jokes have had a long life (not to mention a certain cocky one-up-manship).
   362. Greg K Posted: February 11, 2014 at 10:34 AM (#4654732)
A variation on the question is to ask what comedies make you laugh repeatedly, even after you've pretty much memorized them. For me, Airplane and Police Squad; (much of) Monty Python, and Fawlty Towers, and Love & Death. The Marx Brothers, no: I have to spend a long time away and totally forget what's coming.

For me, let's see:
Python and Fawlty Towers, definitely.

The nearer you get to the present it is harder to say...if something's only a few years old you can't really know how it will last. But anyway...

Season 2-8 (? I always forget what season is what) of the Simpsons. My ex-girlfriend was always perplexed as to how I could know the lines well enough to say them before they happened, and still fall over laughing.

Things like It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, and Seinfeld (which I consider more or less the same show, just a decade removed). I've probably seen most Seinfeld episodes at least 15-20 times.

Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, I suspect In the Loop (and the entire Thick of It series) will fall into this category. For a long time Super Troopers was an annual tradition, and always seemed just as funny as the last time I'd seen it.
   363. PreservedFish Posted: February 11, 2014 at 10:36 AM (#4654735)
It's funny, as a 34 year-old American, I find the world of "classic Hollywood" a lot more comprehensible than the one that just about anybody younger than me is apparently living in. And I've never heard anyone older than me describe the '30s as incomprehensible. So has the amount of historical literature and culture children are exposed to changed dramatically in the past 15 years? Ding ding, I think maybe we have our answer. Sad.


That's why I said "historical literature and culture," meaning "from the past." That is to say, I read lots of books from the 19th and early 20th centuries when I was growing up. I'll bet PreservedFish didn't.


Wow. So pompous!

   364. Morty Causa Posted: February 11, 2014 at 10:40 AM (#4654736)
Shirley Temple passed away.

For the audiences she appealed to, she was a one of a kind almost. Talk about precocious. She's essentially the Mozart of performing.

For people not much into movies for children, movies of long ago for children of long ago, there's Little Miss Marker, one of her earliest and best movies, mostly because it's about the characters surrounding her. It's a wonderful adaptation of Damon Runyon (so is Capra's Lady for a Day), with names like Regret and Sorrowful, Sore Toe and Canvas Back. "Kid's gonna live 'cause I got good blood." An excellent comedy.
   365. PreservedFish Posted: February 11, 2014 at 10:44 AM (#4654737)
I've seen Last Year at Marienbad six times now: the first time I watched it, I immediately started it over again; the third time I saw it in a theater, and went home that night and watched it again; and the fifth time, I watched it again the next night. I assure you my motivations are pure as the driven snow, no posing here, and to convince you on that front I'll offer the fact that I love Avatar and have seen it, oh, ten times.


Maybe I'll give it another shot, some day, years from now. But I hated it.
   366. BDC Posted: February 11, 2014 at 10:53 AM (#4654745)
he actually took phrases directly out of the incorrect writing the council had been called to invalidate

That reminds me of the Frisian bishop who was so stupid that he thought homoousios meant the same thing as homoiousios.

Thanks everybody, I'll be here Friday nights till the next conclave.
   367. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: February 11, 2014 at 11:03 AM (#4654753)
For the audiences she appealed to, she was a one of a kind almost. Talk about precocious. She's essentially the Mozart of performing.


Had no idea till a few minutes ago, in looking through her Wikipedia entry, that this happened --

Based on Temple's many screen successes, Zanuck increased budgets and production values for her films. In 1937, John Ford was hired to direct the sepia-toned Wee Willie Winkie (Temple's own favorite) and an A-list cast was signed that included Victor McLaglen, C. Aubrey Smith, and Cesar Romero. The film was a critical and commercial hit, but British film critic Graham Greene muddied the waters in October 1937 when he wrote in a British magazine that Temple was a "complete totsy" and accused her of being too nubile for a nine-year-old:

Her admirers—middle-aged men and clergymen—respond to her dubious coquetry, to the sight of her well-shaped and desirable little body, packed with enormous vitality, only because the safety curtain of story and dialogue drops between their intelligence and their desire.

Temple and Twentieth Century-Fox sued for libel and won. The settlement remained in trust for Temple in an English bank until she turned twenty-one, when it was donated to charity and used to build a youth center in England.
   368. BDC Posted: February 11, 2014 at 11:21 AM (#4654769)
My God. I imagine Greene went on to write The Power and the Glory as a kind of literary way of washing his mouth out with soap :)
   369. Morty Causa Posted: February 11, 2014 at 11:31 AM (#4654786)
And so do I. I've called The Birth of a Nation a "great" movie at least 3 or 4 times in this thread alone, and in other threads as well. And yet since I'm not James Agee or Pauline Kael, you seem to ignore it, in order to continue your silly argument about nothing.

Well, if that's your final position, fine. But that's not what you started with. You demanded argument and citation of authority for the proposition that BoaN was considered more than only a groundbreaking movie technologically, and in its use of that technology, to propel a story. You denied that it was considered a great movie, period. If you've forgotten, you could look up your own initial posts. At this point, I don’t know what you point is, and I don’t think you do either. You’re just in a self-righteous funk.

BoaN is no different, except in degree and scope (which means a lot), to people who take exception to the way their pet class is portrayed, whether that be Jews, Italian-Americans (the same objections were made about those gangster movies all the way up to and beyond The Godfather/Mean Streets stuff), Southerners, Westerners (remember those B movies made by Easterners about cowboys), American Indians, and Cajuns. Everyone's insulted. Some seem to encourage a censor (funny how they always complain about the Code, yet have such a censorious perspective).

I'd be more impressed with this if you hadn't originally gone out of your way to include your little diatribe about the motivations of people who enjoy foreign films.

Which is generally the wild card used to ignore the point someone is actually making. It's always about their feelings, and that of their favorite group, which must be taken as is without discussion or contention. Aesthetics is about breaking out of that dialectical mindset, that schematic way of looking at things and seeing the broader humanity of it. Criticism includes discussing why people have the views they have. You seem to understand that when you can use that dictum as a cudgel for your cause.

And while I would certainly agree that some movies don't translate all that well, anyone who gets a copy with clearly printed subtitles

My reservations cannot be waved away with subtitles or voice-dubbing. Again, you take great pains to avoid what is actually mooted. Why, when it's obvious the objection made has to be given its due? That is, if you know anything about sociology or cultural studies. Do I have repost Daniel Dennett's admonition regarding the way to debate again?

Do you really think the voices of Cagney, Cary Grant, James Stewart, Stanwyck, and the way they are used, mean nothing, that subtitles can substitute for them? At the end of Vertigo when Stewart says "I loved you so, Madeline", there is nothing between you and that man's pain. And that has everything to do with voice in a context. Or the way Bogart says “No one puts one over on Fred C. Dobbs.” Or the Grant’s inflections when he says, “Get out” in the press room scene of His Girl Friday. You think a transcript can substitute for that? And you think that voice, that vocal expression, is not part and parcel of language and culture? You seem to not understand how you are actually in conflict with yourself on this. Sometimes culture is all that seems to matter with you, sometimes you seem to believe it's trivial. Which is it? Curb that cognitive dissonance.







   370. simon bedford Posted: February 11, 2014 at 11:33 AM (#4654788)
i am enjoying reading about the different bergman and kurisowa films, kurisowa my taste is different from andy, i would place ikure roshoman hidden fortress...with bergamn i prefered "cries and whispers" and "three sisters" although i did like fanny and alexander. as for dolce vita, i think its incredibly underated , partially because some critics/viewers get overly focused on ekberg, i find anouks performance stunning in this film...but i would agree that 8 1/2 maybe overall the finer film. but for me it is verly close..i also liked amarcord , the ship sailed on and la strada a fair deal...and andy i would still have casablance in my top ten ! lol
   371. Morty Causa Posted: February 11, 2014 at 11:37 AM (#4654792)
367 & 368:

Greene was a noted movie reviewer. His novels are very cinematic, and he admitted that he scoped them like movies.

Yes, it was notorious. Greene essentially claimed Temple's appeal at that time was to attract the pedophile in men.

And, yes, of course, like Griffith and BoaN, he had to use his subsequent works to make amends for his views on Temple the rest of his life.
   372. Morty Causa Posted: February 11, 2014 at 11:43 AM (#4654798)
Shirley Temple is an example of one stage of a career, one view of a performer, being so overwhelming that she wasn't acceptable to audiences subsequently. As a teen and young woman, she showed it wasn't just childhood adorable that made her--as John Ford said, she was a pro (although she was a very pretty young woman). She's good in Since You Went Away, Fort Apache, The Bachelor and the Bobby Soxer, That Hagen Girl, and Honeymoon. But she couldn't find a niche as an adult actress. A little tragedy in the scheme of her life, but, still, it says something about group psychology.
   373. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 11, 2014 at 11:54 AM (#4654806)
And so do I. I've called The Birth of a Nation a "great" movie at least 3 or 4 times in this thread alone, and in other threads as well. And yet since I'm not James Agee or Pauline Kael, you seem to ignore it, in order to continue your silly argument about nothing.

Well, if that's your final position, fine.


That's been my position all along. You simply chose to ignore it, in your quest for the Eternal Strawman.

But that's not what you started with. You demanded argument and citation of authority for the proposition that BoaN was considered more than only a groundbreaking movie technologically, and in its use of that technology, to propel a story. You denied that it was considered a great movie, period. If you've forgotten, you could look up your own initial posts.

Morty, you find one post on this entire thread where I've denied that, in cinematic terms, BoaN is a great movie. Find just one. I've described that film as "great" many times before this.

BoaN is no different, except in degree and scope (which means a lot), to people who take exception to the way their pet class is portrayed, whether that be Jews, Italian-Americans (the same objections were made about those gangster movies all the way up to and beyond The Godfather/Mean Streets stuff), Southerners, Westerners (remember those B movies made by Easterners about cowboys), American Indians, and Cajuns. Everyone's insulted. Some seem to encourage a censor (funny how they always complain about the Code, yet have such a censorious perspective).

As a film, BoaN is a great work of art. As history, BoaN is little more than an extremely effective piece of racist propaganda that pandered to and reinforced the racial stereotypes of 1914. The problem is that at the time, way too many people viewed it as history.

And please with all these overreaching comparisons to The Godfather, etc. There were plenty of honest, intelligent and upright Italians portrayed in all of those mob movies. No comparable black people were portrayed in BoaN. They were portrayed as either servile or power-crazed, and always comically stupid. The mob movies are about crime and criminals. BoaN is all about white racial paranoia. The only true comparison to BoaN would be films like The Eternal Jew.

Do you really think the voices of Cagney, Cary Grant, James Stewart, Stanwyck, and the way they are used, mean nothing, that subtitles can substitute for them? At the end of Vertigo when Stewart says "I loved you so, Madeline", there is nothing between you and that man's pain. And that has everything to do with voice in a context. Or the way Bogart says “No one puts one over on Fred C. Dobbs.” Or the Grant’s inflections when he says, “Get out” in the press room scene of His Girl Friday. You think a transcript can substitute for that? And you think that voice, that vocal expression, is not part and parcel of language and culture? You seem to not understand how you are actually in conflict with yourself on this. Sometimes culture is all that seems to matter with you, sometimes you seem to believe it's trivial. Which is it? Curb that cognitive dissonance.

Of course those voices "matter", just not nearly as much as you say they do. Most non-idiomatic expressions can be translated with sufficient accuracy to convey the meaning, and the voices and facial expressions are just as vivid on a subtitled screen as they are on a screen without them. And a 20 year old Haitian who saw BoaN with French subtitles wouldn't be a tenth as clueless about what that movie was all about as you pretend to be.
   374. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: February 11, 2014 at 12:03 PM (#4654816)
As a teen and young woman, she showed it wasn't just childhood adorable that made her--as John Ford said, she was a pro (although she was a very pretty young woman). She's good in Since You Went Away, Fort Apache, The Bachelor and the Bobby Soxer, That Hagen Girl, and Honeymoon. But she couldn't find a niche as an adult actress. A little tragedy in the scheme of her life, but, still, it says something about group psychology.


Offhand, the only post-childhood thing of hers I've seen is Mr. Belvedere Goes to College. (I really love those Clifton Webb movies.) Offhand, I can't say I really remember her character, though in fairness that was probably 25 years ago, alas.
   375. simon bedford Posted: February 11, 2014 at 12:03 PM (#4654817)
reminds me of "das boot" andy where they actually got the german cast to dub themselves in english, the subtitles version was still far far better.
   376. Morty Causa Posted: February 11, 2014 at 12:12 PM (#4654827)
How can subtitles serve as even remotely the equivalent of this?

I'm a man who likes to talk to a man who likes to talk.

EDIT: How do you replicate that voice and those words in any kind of translation?
   377. BDC Posted: February 11, 2014 at 12:12 PM (#4654828)
Temple was in Fort Apache as the ingenue, speaking of John Ford again. She's fine in the part, though again the domestic stuff in Ford Westerns is often tedious.

Temple's eventual diplomatic career was both satisfying to her (by all accounts) and a strong model for professional women. I also remember her going public with news of her mastectomy, as an encouragement to other women to seek screening and treatment. She had quite a life.
   378. Morty Causa Posted: February 11, 2014 at 12:18 PM (#4654836)
I disagree. That Fort Apache (and many of Ford's westerns) is as much about the women as the men is what gives it its texture.
   379. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 11, 2014 at 12:32 PM (#4654847)
How can subtitles serve as even remotely the equivalent of this?

EDIT: How do you replicate that voice and those words in any kind of translation?

The voice is there in any event**, and you get a skilled translator to write the subtitles. They've been doing this for nearly 100 years, and the only problem comes when they hire a stiff as a subtitle writer. As usual, you've got a molehill of a legitimate point, but then you try to make a mountain out of it.

**Except in dubbed soundtracks, which I wouldn't waste my time trying to listen to.
   380. PreservedFish Posted: February 11, 2014 at 12:36 PM (#4654850)
Again, Morty's statement is only problematic to the degree that you weight it. I think it's indisputable that a non-native speaker is at some disadvantage - the size and importance of that disadvantage is up for debate, and will vary depending on the movie in question.
   381. PreservedFish Posted: February 11, 2014 at 12:43 PM (#4654854)
Sometimes being non-native might improve one's appreciation of a movie. There are so many foreign movies that are written to appropriate, converse with, or repudiate the traditions of Hollywood. I might be better able to focus on what is quintessentially Japanese about Yojimbo than a Japanese viewer would. It's like how an art forgery, accepted as real or plausible when it is created, is slowly made to look ridiculous as contemporary styles change.
   382. Morty Causa Posted: February 11, 2014 at 12:47 PM (#4654858)
The voice is there in any event**, and you get a skilled translator to write the subtitles.

No, no, no. Voice and what it conveys to you cannot be separated from your understanding that language. This is elementary linguistics. See Pinker and everybody on this. Example: The word "blue" in English brings associations of sadness to the mind; it does not to someone who only, for instance, speaks German.

But I've just shown you an example of a great voice essential to a a great movie. Show me an equivalent great subtitle. What subtitles boil your potato?

Actually, dubbing has possibilities that subtitles don't. It's an added avenue for creativity.
   383. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 11, 2014 at 12:47 PM (#4654859)
Again, Morty's statement is only problematic to the degree that you weight it. I think it's indisputable that a non-native speaker is at some disadvantage - the size and importance of that disadvantage is up for debate, and will vary depending on the movie in question.

But that's what I meant about mountains and molehills. All things equal, it's obviously better to be versed in the language of a film you're watching. But the idea that in all but a few cases a lack of such fluency would diminish your appreciation of a movie to any great extent is just a lot of hooey. Do we really need to understand Russian to appreciate Come and See? Or know French to appreciate The 400 Blows? Or understand Italian to appreciate Bicycle Thieves? We may not be able to appreciate them "fully" to the extent that a native speaker might, but I'd say that in cases like these the language gap isn't a tenth as important as the empathy gap.
   384. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 11, 2014 at 12:54 PM (#4654863)
I'll re-phrase my dig at Morty in #373 in the form of a question. Who would be better equipped to "understand" The Birth of a Nation, if that film had been made in sound? A clueless English speaking filmgoer who took that film's propaganda message at face value? Or a 20 year old semi-educated Haitian who saw a version with French subtitles?
   385. Morty Causa Posted: February 11, 2014 at 12:57 PM (#4654867)
At this point, I should just say game, set, match, and leave it at that, and I will but for one last reminder...

You continue to trivialize the importance of language. That's serious.

I can give you tons of instances of words used memorably in the native language. Can you do the same with subtitles? Where are those memorable subtitles?
   386. Alex meets the threshold for granular review Posted: February 11, 2014 at 12:59 PM (#4654870)
But I've just shown you an example of a great voice essential to a a great movie. Show me an equivalent great subtitle. What subtitles boil your potato?


Interestingly, I can think of one example where a subtitle supposedly adds a lot of lyricism to a rather mundane exchange of dialogue. In Chungking Express - one of my favorites - when Cop 663 first speaks with Faye, she's working behind the counter of a takeout place, blasting "California Dreamin'" on the radio. Here's the exchange from the current Criterion release, which as far as I know is the most correct available translation:

663: "You like listening to loud music?"
Faye: "Yes. The louder the better. Keeps me from thinking so much."
663: "You don't like to think? What do you like?"
Faye: "I'll tell you when I find out."

However, here's the translation as I first saw it (and which is cited on IMDb's quotes page):

663: "You like noisy music?"
Faye: "Yes. The louder the better. Stops me from thinking."
663: "You don't like to think? What do you like?"
Faye: "Never thought about it."

This opens up a whole new can of worms regarding authorship and interpretation, but seriously, how much better is that second one?
   387. Morty Causa Posted: February 11, 2014 at 01:20 PM (#4654885)
If language is such an inconsequential thing to a movie, why did movies become talking pictures? Indeed, why aren't there still a whole mess of silent movies?
   388. Alex meets the threshold for granular review Posted: February 11, 2014 at 01:32 PM (#4654896)
If language is such an inconsequential thing to a movie, why did movies become talking pictures? Indeed, why aren't there still a whole mess of silent movies?


"Inconsequential" is too strong, but of course, spoken language is only one of several methods a film uses to convey ideas and emotions, and hardly the most important. Cinematography, music, editing, body language, makeup and costuming, production design, sound design, etc., all important and several of them at least as important.
   389. BDC Posted: February 11, 2014 at 02:00 PM (#4654930)
Show me an equivalent great subtitle

I realize this is a rhetorical demand, but at least one subtitled film uses a wonderful translation: Anthony Burgess's English version of the 1990 Cyrano de Bergerac. They weren't done expressly for the film, but based on an earlier stage translation by Burgess; but I do think that he helped adapt them for the English release of the film.
   390. Morty Causa Posted: February 11, 2014 at 02:04 PM (#4654937)
It wasn't a rhetorical question at all. 99% of subtitles are pedestrian, unimaginative, and inaccurate.

How accurate was that subtitle in Chungking Express? Do you know? Are you able to compare it with the original expressions?

   391. BDC Posted: February 11, 2014 at 02:07 PM (#4654940)
It wasn't a rhetorical question at all. 99% of subtitles are pedestrian, unimaginative, and inaccurate

No argument here. That Cyrano is the exception that proves the rule.
   392. Morty Causa Posted: February 11, 2014 at 02:12 PM (#4654946)
   393. Monty Posted: February 11, 2014 at 02:13 PM (#4654947)
The subtitles are the best thing about Night Watch.
   394. BDC Posted: February 11, 2014 at 02:18 PM (#4654953)
I seem to remember a scene in the 1970s-era Best Foreign Film Black and White in Color, where some Africans are carrying around these European officials (or are they missionaries?) in sedan chairs, singing a song, and the Europeans think this is charming, while from the subtitles you see that the Africans are singing "My white man is very heavy" and stuff like that. RDF, though not to the point.
   395. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 11, 2014 at 02:36 PM (#4654970)
I love how Morty has gone from arguing subtitles ruin a movie (or words to that effect) to subtitles are mostly inferior to understanding the native language.

Yes, it is better to know the native language, but no that does not mean that it is not worthwhile to watch great foreign language movies. And even enjoy them, dubbed or subtitled (though subtitles are better, though they mean having to watch a movie twice to fully appreciate it).
   396. Juilin Sandar to Conkling Speedwell (Arjun) Posted: February 11, 2014 at 02:59 PM (#4654986)
The problem, Morty Causa, is that, I think, you're using a cudgel when you should be using a scalpel. This was the point I was trying to get at in post #325, which I think you missed (I would still love to hear your answer): namely, that requiring subtitles for understanding certainly adds a layer between the viewer and the work, but that does not necessarily invalidate the power of the work to the viewer or their engagement with it. There are multiple levels of engagement with a work of cinema; I can enjoy as entertainment, as one who experienced something similar, as one who is viewing something entirely alien (like in many works of science fiction or of the deep past), or somewhere in-between. The last case is the most common. Take a Jane Austen novel. I haven't grown up in Georgian England, nor am I looking to marry off my sisters or something. But I've seen patriarchal societies, I've seen the importance of marriage in my not-to-dissimilar culture in India, and she's an incredible writer, so I still get a great deal out of it. As much as an English person from that time? Well, maybe not, but enough for a book like "Emma" to nonetheless be among my favourite books? Yes. A translated text adds a layer of obscuration, yes, but the end result might still strike a deep chord with me nonetheless (like with "Crime and Punishment").

Let me go at it from another way: I have a female cousin who loves The Wire. She grew up in India, went to college in the UK, and has only lived in the US for a few years (and is now living in India again). When watching this TV show, she requires subtitles, because she struggles with the vernacular (so do my parents, who lived in India until graduate school, and also require subtitles). I went to secondary school in the States, in a district which was 40% African-American and poor; I heard the vernacular every day, so I don't need subtitles. There are undoubtedly jokes/lines which I get that neither my cousin nor my parents understand. Does that invalidate their claim that the work is among the best they have ever seen? No. The themes are universal, the struggles of the characters are heart-wrenching. Do I get more out of the work than they do? Maybe, but that might be just as much because I knew kids in high school who dealt drugs and such as much as I "speak the language." Are there things they get which I consider "normal" or don't remark on? Yes. There have been.

There's the crux of the matter, and yields perhaps another interesting point: can "distance" from a work make it more enjoyable? I love Friday Night Lights to death, but I have never been to Texas. P.G. Wodehouse makes me laugh every time I read him, but that was another place and time. Often learning about the struggles of another culture or associate the struggles of other individuals with people you know is an entirely different kind of joy. They say that the greatest works are universal and it strikes me that there has to be a reason for that. Language barriers can be a barrier, yes, but they don't end enjoyment all-together, and they certainly don't prevent a person from saying they love a film or ranking it as one of their favourites (which is where this discussion began).
   397. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 11, 2014 at 03:12 PM (#4654995)
"Inconsequential" is too strong, but of course, spoken language is only one of several methods a film uses to convey ideas and emotions, and hardly the most important. Cinematography, music, editing, body language, makeup and costuming, production design, sound design, etc., all important and several of them at least as important.

I find silent and sub-titled movies basically un-watchable.
   398. Lassus Posted: February 11, 2014 at 03:12 PM (#4654996)
The subtitles are the best thing about Night Watch.

Is the third movie dead in the water, Monty? Have you heard or seen anything about it?
   399. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: February 11, 2014 at 03:26 PM (#4655008)
What's the oldest thing you've ever read that's genuinely, laugh out loud funny? Has one of us here laughed out loud reading Aristophanes?


Aristophanes is ####### hilarious, especially when it's presented dramatically (as was intended).
   400. Lassus Posted: February 11, 2014 at 03:37 PM (#4655016)
I assume you mean the translation of Aristophanes.
Page 4 of 8 pages ‹ First  < 2 3 4 5 6 >  Last ›

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Francis
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogOT: Politics - December 2014: Baseball & Politics Collide in New Thriller
(4796 - 4:48pm, Dec 18)
Last: BDC

NewsblogOT: NBC.news: Valve isn’t making one gaming console, but multiple ‘Steam machines’
(1346 - 4:47pm, Dec 18)
Last: Paul D(uda)

NewsblogAre Wil Myers' flaws fixable? | FOX Sports
(94 - 4:47pm, Dec 18)
Last: Zach

NewsblogMorosi - Effects of US Shift on Cuba Policy
(11 - 4:43pm, Dec 18)
Last: bobm

NewsblogThe 2015 HOF Ballot Collecting Gizmo!
(54 - 4:42pm, Dec 18)
Last: DL from MN

NewsblogMatt Kemp's arthritic hips hold up deal with Padres
(29 - 4:40pm, Dec 18)
Last: bobm

NewsblogCooperstown vote: The Ron Chimelis ballot
(17 - 4:37pm, Dec 18)
Last: the Hugh Jorgan returns

NewsblogRoyals sign Kris Medlen to two-year deal - MLB Daily Dish
(15 - 4:34pm, Dec 18)
Last: Ziggy

NewsblogOT: Monthly NBA Thread - December 2014
(668 - 4:33pm, Dec 18)
Last: sardonic

NewsblogHow Will MLB Handle Big Changes With Cuba? - BaseballAmerica.com
(1 - 4:22pm, Dec 18)
Last: No Maas Cashman

Hall of MeritMost Meritorious Player: 1901 Discussion
(28 - 4:05pm, Dec 18)
Last: Chris Fluit

NewsblogRoyals sign Edinson Volquez for two years, $20 million
(17 - 3:59pm, Dec 18)
Last: AROM

NewsblogOrioles agree to one-year deal with LHP Wesley Wright, pending physical, source says
(12 - 3:54pm, Dec 18)
Last: Walt Davis

NewsblogSource: Myers to Padres in 11-player deal with Rays, Nats | MLB.com
(21 - 3:54pm, Dec 18)
Last: PreservedFish

NewsblogOT: Soccer December 2014
(308 - 3:49pm, Dec 18)
Last: JuanGone..except1game

Page rendered in 0.9870 seconds
48 querie(s) executed