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Sunday, December 09, 2018

Smith, Baines elected to Baseball Hall of Fame

Smith, meh. Harold Baines? Really?

Jim Furtado Posted: December 09, 2018 at 08:34 PM | 554 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: hall of fame, harold baines, lee smith

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   1. The Non-Catching Molina (sjs1959) Posted: December 09, 2018 at 08:38 PM (#5795615)
I love Harold Baines but I would not have voted for him. I have to think this should open the door for Edgar Martinez.
   2. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: December 09, 2018 at 08:41 PM (#5795617)
OK with Lee Smith.

But, Harold Baines??
   3. Adam Starblind Posted: December 09, 2018 at 08:43 PM (#5795618)
Electing Harold Baines to own the libs.
   4. PreservedFish Posted: December 09, 2018 at 08:46 PM (#5795620)
Why. Why?
   5. Kiko Sakata Posted: December 09, 2018 at 08:47 PM (#5795621)
Lee Smith doesn't surprise me. And if you're good with inducting relief pitchers, Smith fits just fine with the guys already elected. I did not see Harold Baines coming at all. Did he have some specific advocate on the Committee? Was the Committee packed with Chicagoans?
   6. catomi01 Posted: December 09, 2018 at 08:48 PM (#5795622)
I can now say I've caught for a hall of famer. Played with Lee as his catcher about 15 years ago in a charity game, and he was still throwing a cutter that moved.
   7. Howie Menckel Posted: December 09, 2018 at 08:48 PM (#5795623)

Eric Fisher
‏Verified account @EricFisherSBJ
12m12 minutes ago

Eric Fisher Retweeted Bob Nightengale

Reinsdorf, who loves Baines, is on the HOF Board of Directors. So, too, is Reinsdorf’s close friend Paul Beeston, who also was a voter in the Today’s Game Committee.

.........

moving from the other thread

here's a best to worst OPS+s, in full seasons

Baines 144 143 143 142 137 136 132 130 120 118 116 114 113 112 111 109 108 087
Staub 166 153 148 139 137 137 132 132 119 118 117 116 112 108 084

(Baines was barely short of AVG title qualifying in 137, 136, and 130 seasons. Staub barely qualified in 119 season.)

Staub career 124 OPS+ in 11,129 PA
Baines career 121 OPS+ in 11,092 PA

then adjust for defense and baserunning, of course
   8. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: December 09, 2018 at 08:48 PM (#5795624)
I remember reading a Bill James article about ten years ago, wherein he was playing around with designing a formula to predict who would go into the Hall of Fame, and James wrote that a recurring challenge was that it seemed like no matter how he tinkered with the formula, whatever list it spat out always featured Harold Baines right near the top.

As #1 alluded, I imagine that Edgar Martinez's assumed election next month by the BBWAA made a mostly-DH palatable to the committee.
   9. Man o' Schwar Posted: December 09, 2018 at 08:49 PM (#5795625)
This is a real surprise. I liked Baines a lot, but he never struck me as a HoFer. He's kind of the ultimate compiler. Two seasons over 3 bWAR, and none over 4.3? 9th and 10th in MVP voting, and no MVP votes after his age 26 season.

He's the Charlie Hough of batters. Even Hough had a better peak.
   10. PreservedFish Posted: December 09, 2018 at 08:51 PM (#5795626)
I imagine that Edgar Martinez's assumed election next month by the BBWAA made a mostly-DH palatable to the committee.

I imagine the committee doesn't keep abreast of such things.
   11. Rennie's Tenet Posted: December 09, 2018 at 08:55 PM (#5795627)
Smith born two years before me, Baines 8 days before me. I think the Hall's very happy to induct players who are still living and well-remembered.
   12. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: December 09, 2018 at 08:56 PM (#5795628)
Nothing against Baines, but really? Among other things, he peaked at 6.1% on the writers ballot, lasting only 5 years*. When was the last time someone with so little support among the writers got elected by the vets? the 60's/early 70's in the nadir of the Frisch electees?

* which is pretty remarkable. His vote %s were 5.1, 5.2, 5.9, 6.1, 4.8 and out.
   13. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: December 09, 2018 at 08:56 PM (#5795629)
So we'll definitely have four, quite possibly five (if Roy Halladay is elected first ballot) in the next HOF class.
   14. Posada Posse Posted: December 09, 2018 at 08:57 PM (#5795630)
here's a best to worst OPS+s, in full seasons

Baines 144 143 143 142 137 136 132 130 120 118 116 114 113 112 111 109 108 087
Staub 166 153 148 139 137 137 132 132 119 118 117 116 112 108 084


Without having seen this earlier, my first thought upon learning of Baines' election was: "if Baines is in, then Rusty Staub deserves to be in!"
   15. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:02 PM (#5795633)
I actually thought the headline was a joke when I first saw this. Apparently not.

I very much sit in the peak voter camp so neither of these guys would even come close to my personal HOF. Also I would have never elected relief pitchers, so there is that.
   16. willcarrolldoesnotsuk Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:03 PM (#5795634)
Jim Rice just breathed a sigh of relief a decade in the making.
   17. PreservedFish Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:04 PM (#5795635)
Baines: definitely in
Halladay: ... maybe
Mussina, Schilling, etc: nope
Bonds/Clemens: no way

Yeah, this makes all sorts of sense.
   18. Baldrick Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:04 PM (#5795636)
I assumed this was a joke when I first saw the headline.

I still think it's a joke.

This is beyond ridiculous.
   19. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:05 PM (#5795637)
Absolute embarrassment. The Veterans Committee is turning into the Frankie Frisch era VC.
   20. Red Voodooin Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:09 PM (#5795639)
I seriously threw up in my mouth when I read this headline.
   21. Baldrick Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:09 PM (#5795640)
I mean, if Harold Baines is a HOFer, then sure put in Omar Vizquel. Whatever. Induct BJ Surhoff too. Garret Anderson is still out there...Hall of Famer! Joe Carter hit that home run. Put him in!
   22. PreservedFish Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:09 PM (#5795641)
Honestly, this makes me want to just ignore the whole thing. I feel shitty complaining about two guys that were good ballplayers and may be great people, but I can't see the HOF as anything but a farce at the moment.
   23. Man o' Schwar Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:09 PM (#5795642)
Absolute embarrassment. The Veterans Committee is turning into the Frankie Frisch era VC.

Hey, I read the article. We were one vote away from adding Lou Piniella to this list.
   24. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:10 PM (#5795643)
Re: #7

Adding to that list, Alomar was a teammate of Baines, Gillick acquired him once or twice, TLR managed him, twice, Kurkjian is a Baltimore guy (if that means anything). This feels like the Frisch/Terry years all over.

For Smith it’s also pretty clear he had a big constituency: Played with Ozzie and Maddux, for Torre, and MacPhail was a player development leader for Cubs as Smith came thru their system.

In general: Since 2012, The VC has given us Hank O’Day, Seligula, The Jack, Smith, and Baines in exchange for Deacon White, Jacob Ruppert, Ron Santo, the three managers, John Schuerholz, and Alan Trammell. And they tossed a couple shutouts in there. I might have forgotten someone (Gillick?). If the Hall cares about its own standards (it only does if it doesn’t piss off MLb or Hall members), then it needs to finally admit that a bunch of actual baseball historians (read: outsiders) need to be involved. I recommend they be involved as the screening committee. If the ballot had lots of quality candidates, there’s no way to make foolish selections.
   25. Baldrick Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:11 PM (#5795644)
In summary: I did not realize that I still held some degree of respect for the HOF voting process. That has now officially been removed.

And it couldn't come at a better time, with my all-time favorite player on the verge of finally being inducted. Sure will be fun to see him up on the stage with the all-time great Harold Baines.
   26. Man o' Schwar Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:12 PM (#5795645)
If the Hall cares about its own standards (it only does if it doesn’t piss off MLb or Hall members), then it needs to finally admit that a bunch of actual baseball historians (read: outsiders) need to be involved. I recommend they be involved as the screening committee. If the ballot had lots of quality candidates, there’s no way to make foolish selections.

You really think a bunch of people who never played the game understand baseball than those who did? If Roberto Alomar thinks that Kelly Gruber was a Hall of Famer, then that should be good enough for you.

- signed, the Hall of Fame
   27. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:13 PM (#5795646)
Can Bill Buckner be far behind?
   28. Man o' Schwar Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:14 PM (#5795648)
Can Bill Buckner be far behind?

Behind the bag, maybe...
   29. Red Voodooin Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:15 PM (#5795649)
Is Baines the worst Hofer ever? He's probably better than Highpockets Kelly? Maybe?
   30. bachslunch Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:15 PM (#5795650)
Lee Smith makes some level of sense given the other relievers in the HoF. Not surprised he got in.

Harold Baines is a truly horrendous, indefensible choice. Can’t believe he got voted in.
   31. eric Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:15 PM (#5795651)
I, too, thought this was a joke. Went so far as to inspect the URL after I'd followed it just to make sure. Harold Baines??

People talking about opening the door for Edgar and Rusty Staub, but what about Vizquel? He now has more hits than one more HOFer.

It's cliche to say as much, but this might literally be the event that numbs me to this whole HOF business. How many days until pitchers and catchers report?
   32. Meatwad Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:16 PM (#5795652)
In that case the sooner we get bonds and clemens to them the better.
   33. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:18 PM (#5795653)
[24] I actually think Selig was a fine pick. All the notable commissioners are in. You may have been pissed off about 1994 but he was really good at his job in that MLB profits soared under his watch.
   34. AndrewJ Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:19 PM (#5795654)
By advanced metrics -- or even just the Keltner Test -- Baines is a very weak choice.
   35. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:20 PM (#5795655)
Nothing against Baines, but really? Among other things, he peaked at 6.1% on the writers ballot, lasting only 5 years*. When was the last time someone with so little support among the writers got elected by the vets? the 60's/early 70's in the nadir of the Frisch electees?

Leaving out the obvious special cases of players who weren't considered by the writers (19th century and Negro Leagues), the answer appears to be Larry Doby, who dropped off in 1967 after two ballots. Doby's split career makes him a special case in his own right; before that, you get into the murkier parts of Hall of Fame voting, where players could hang around on the ballot quasi-indefinitely regardless of their vote totals. Ernie Lombardi had six totals below 5% before his first time above, and eventually peaked under 20%; he exceeded 10% only three times, and two of those years had runoff elections in which he got under 10% in the runoff. (Hall of Fame voting has some WEIRD stretches.) Arky Vaughan was similar - under 5% for seven consecutive elections (spanning a decade), then climbing up to 29% before his eligibility expired.

So who knows how Baines would have done if his eligibility had lasted past that 4.8% year... oh wait, that was 2011, which was before the majority of the glut hit, so never mind.
   36. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:21 PM (#5795656)
#29
There’s an argument for it given how much more information we now have compared to back then, as well as the fact that Baines is a DH without any elect-me hitting achievements. He is also, in a way, kind of the Jack Morris of hitters, without the narrative.

#26
You’re right, of course. How could I be so narrow minded! ;)
   37. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:22 PM (#5795657)
People talking about opening the door for Edgar and Rusty Staub, but what about Vizquel? He now has more hits than one more HOFer.

Technically, two more HOFers!
   38. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:23 PM (#5795658)
[30] Not the worst ever. Ray Schalk was a really bad choice. Freddie Linstrom, Cecil Travis, Lloyd Waner were probably all worse. Still a terrible choice, of course.
   39. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:23 PM (#5795660)
Did these people watch baseball? Is there any world in which Harold Baines was considered a better player then Will Clark?

Then again, as I mentioned above, I'm a peak voter guy but still. I mean c'mon Harold Baines? I don't think there was a moment when some fan turned to his kid and said hey keep an eye on Harold, you are watching a future HOFer. Baines was a solid player for a long time...and that's great, but that's not a HOFer. I believe you've got to have some sort of peak. You've got to be one of the best in MLB at some point in time in your career.

And yet, much better players like Whitaker or even Will Clark miss out. This is farcical.
   40. Roger McDowell spit on me! Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:25 PM (#5795663)
I don't mind Smith. He bridged the stopper/1 inning closer era, put up a number of quality seasons and if you are going to put in relievers not named Wilhelm, he's fine. Balnes...just...shocked. A good ball player, but he really should be buying tickets to get in. The veterans committee stuff needs to be put out of its misery because Baines' selection seems to be pure cronyism.
   41. Ray (CTL) Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:26 PM (#5795664)
Lofl. Baines, but no Bonds. Smith, but not Clemens.

Is the HOF's descent into comedy at rock bottom yet?
   42. Baldrick Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:27 PM (#5795665)
Scott Rolen is currently sitting on 10% of the vote because, despite being an all-time great defensive third baseman, he didn't have enough offense to convince many voters.

Rolen and Baines have identical career batting runs.
   43. willcarrolldoesnotsuk Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:29 PM (#5795666)
I have always had a vague positive feeling about Baines, whereas I've always felt that Jack Morris was a bit of an ass. So now I can't even feel the joy of simmering in my own miserable pettiness over how bad the selection process is anymore. :(
   44. The Duke Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:30 PM (#5795667)
Well, I’m very happy for Big Lee Smith. He gave the cardinals some great years. He had a very distinctive walk coming in from the bullpen. One part amble and one part intimidation.

I hope he goes in as a cardinal but he had more saves and more WAR as a Cub.
   45. John Northey Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:30 PM (#5795668)
OK, how much did they have to drink before voting for Baines ahead of Albert Belle? I mean, c'mon, Belle career 144 OPS+, Baines peak over 400+ PA is 144. IE: the average Belle season was as good as the best Baines could do. Yes, Baines had 2 years of limited PA with OPS+ over that (151 and 165 over 390 and 397 PA so I suspect he was being platooned those years). Belle had 2 years of 170+ with 500+ PA and a 194 over 480 in the 1994 strike year.

Vets committee strikes again with a poor choice.
   46. willcarrolldoesnotsuk Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:31 PM (#5795669)
Don't worry, Baldrick, Rolen's a shoo-in. That 10% of his is over twice as much as Hall of Famer Harold Baines ever got!
   47. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:37 PM (#5795672)
I know they are 2 different voting bodies, but what's the argument for Baines over, among others, contemporaries Fred McGriff, Dale Murphy, Don Mattingly, John Olerud, Dave Parker, Julio Franco, Luis Gonzalez, and well, I could go on and on.
   48. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:38 PM (#5795673)
Omar Vizquel is definitely going in. I wouldn't rule out him going in by the BBWAA, but if he doesn't, he'll be put in by the VC the instant they're able to.

I'm also going to call it right now: Orel Hershiser will be elected within the next three years.
   49. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:38 PM (#5795674)
Lofl. Baines, but no Bonds. Smith, but not Clemens.

Is the HOF's descent into comedy at rock bottom yet?


It might be.
   50. John Northey Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:38 PM (#5795675)
So does this mean Al Oliver and many, many others are shoe ins now?
   51. JJ1986 Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:40 PM (#5795676)
What is the possible argument for Baines? He wasn't particularly a winner; he wasn't 'feared.' He doesn't have a big moment. There's no reason to think he's better than his stats. No one thought of him as a Hall of Famer when he played. Is he going in because he was a nice guy?
   52. GregD Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:41 PM (#5795677)
Indefensible choice.

I imagine some South Siders are happy. He remained a very popular player well after his retirement. The White Sox don't have many HOFers from recent vintage. Fisk and Thomas. You can decide if they get some share of Raines and Gossage; I don't credit them anything for Thome or other short-term stints.
   53. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:43 PM (#5795680)
Ugh. Bad choices.

Baines has 1.8 WAA that's just awful for a HoFer. The only ones lower are Lloyd (thought he was his brother) Waner and Tommy (WTF knows why) McCarthy.
   54. Baldrick Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:44 PM (#5795681)
I know they are 2 different voting bodies, but what's the argument for Baines over, among others, contemporaries Fred McGriff, Dale Murphy, Don Mattingly, John Olerud, Dave Parker, Julio Franco, Luis Gonzalez, and well, I could go on and on.

What is the possible argument for Baines? He wasn't particularly a winner; he wasn't 'feared.' He doesn't have a big moment. There's no reason to think he's better than his stats. No one thought of him as a Hall of Famer when he played. Is he going in because he was a nice guy?

Two thousand eight hundred and sixty-six.
   55. Baldrick Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:44 PM (#5795682)
I imagine some South Siders are happy. He remained a very popular player well after his retirement. The White Sox don't have many HOFers from recent vintage. Fisk and Thomas. You can decide if they get some share of Raines and Gossage; I don't credit them anything for Thome or other short-term stints.

If Baines is a HOFer, then so is Paul Konerko, so that's another one right there.
   56. The Duke Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:46 PM (#5795683)
The longevity card is something that doesn’t get into Jay Jaffes math as much as it should. People in the game appreciate longevity. It’s why Morris/trammel did well. Baines. Smith. vizquel . Counting stat leaders do well. Years/games/innings played seem to generate a lot of votes
   57. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:46 PM (#5795684)
#### it, all bets are off. I want Al Oliver and Hal McRae enshrined immediately. Wilbur Wood and Vida Blue are overdue for re-evaluation. Someone call Jack Clark’s probation officer.
   58. GregD Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:47 PM (#5795685)
If Baines is a HOFer, then so is Paul Konerko, so that's another one right there.
They will love that! And Magglio Ordonez will be a shoo in
   59. eric Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:48 PM (#5795686)
The Veterans Committee (Modern Game committee? Whatever it's called) should be about correcting mistakes not creating mistakes. The idea works in theory, but it can't just be a bunch of old fogies sitting around voting for their buddies and whomever else had the highest counting stats. 2866 hits! 1628 RBIs! And the other guy...478 saves...man, that's a LOT! That literally has to be their thought process.
   60. vortex of dissipation Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:51 PM (#5795687)
Freddie Linstrom, Cecil Travis, Lloyd Waner were probably all worse. Still a terrible choice, of course.



Cecil Travis isn't in. Do you mean Travis Jackson?
   61. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:55 PM (#5795688)
There's an argument for Baines being the worst HOF selection ever. He's not the worst player elected for his playing skill, but given that we know a lot more now than we knew then, and with era adjustment, he might be the worst. In the 60's people might really have thought that Jim Bottomley or Fred Lindstrom were all time greats. There's no excuse for Baines today. There's probably several hundred players more qualified. Among Non HOF OF/1B/DH types with a mere 10 more WAR, a higher peak, and more black ink/award finishes, who will likely;y never even make a vet ballot are:

Bernie Williams
Brett Butler
Ellis burks
Torii Hunter
Fred Lynn
Brian Giles
Brian downing
Luis gonzalez
Norm cash
cesar cedeno
Free McGriff
Jack clark
vada pinson
Jose cruz
Chet lemon
Jim Wynn
Will Clark
Bobby Bonds
John olerud
Dick Allen
Sherry Magee
Willie davis
Bobby Abreu
Dwight evans

   62. bbmck Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:56 PM (#5795689)
Reasonably modern lowest peak main vote% for MLB inductees before today:

22.2% - Joe Torre
25.0% - Bobby Doerr
28.5% - Joe Gordon
29.0% - Arky Vaughan
   63. Ray (CTL) Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:58 PM (#5795690)
I would like Ellis Burks and Mike Greenwell to go in. Burks has a higher peak than Baines and outwars him 50-39. Greenwell only has 26 WAR but Baines has nothing like Greenwell's 1988.
   64. JRVJ Posted: December 09, 2018 at 10:00 PM (#5795691)
I'm not as angry as some of you are about this decision, because I remember how very recent Veterans Committee's simply weren't electing anybody.

The fact of the matter is that very good players have not been chosen by the BBWAA, and we all know the names.

The only current way of fixing that is via the Veterans Committee, so I'll take a L. Smith, a J. Morris and a H. Baines if it means a Trammell and (hopefully) a Whitaker and a Grich.
   65. PreservedFish Posted: December 09, 2018 at 10:01 PM (#5795692)
The only current way of fixing that is via the Veterans Committee, so I'll take a L. Smith, a J. Morris and a H. Baines if it means a Trammell and (hopefully) a Whitaker and a Grich.


Not me.
   66. crict Posted: December 09, 2018 at 10:02 PM (#5795693)
On the plus side, the Expos now unexpectedly have another HOFer!
   67. SoSH U at work Posted: December 09, 2018 at 10:02 PM (#5795694)
What is the possible argument for Baines?


I don't think it's anything other than the committee didn't like any of the other choices and a sense they needed to fill the ballot. Obviously, Hershiser and Clark had much better careers, but neither is necessarily Hall-worthy either. Joe Carter's even less worthy. Belle had Hall talent, but didn't play very long and was a sociopath. You had three managers who were a few rungs below the previous three managers they put in just a few years earlier. And you had one polarizing owner. It was a predictably crappy ballot, and enough of the guys voted for the sole offensive compiler of the bunch.

Arguably, the only Hall-worthy player that the screening committee could have put on the ballot from this era was McGwire, and they left him off.
   68. JRVJ Posted: December 09, 2018 at 10:03 PM (#5795695)
Not me.


Our thinking is different.
   69. Ray (CTL) Posted: December 09, 2018 at 10:03 PM (#5795696)
Lee Smith doesn't surprise me.


When I read the headline I thought it was Reggie Smith and I was like, ok, sure.

Then I saw it was Lee. They didn't even get the right Smith.

Hard to believe Baines is coming up on 60. Years old, not WAR.
   70. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: December 09, 2018 at 10:05 PM (#5795697)
Frankie Frisch lives!! Good God this "committee" (or whatever it's called) could actually surpass that Vets committee for horseshit choices
   71. vortex of dissipation Posted: December 09, 2018 at 10:07 PM (#5795698)
Baines is pretty unique in that he was an active player for twelve seasons after the White Sox retired his number. I always through that was bizarre...
   72. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: December 09, 2018 at 10:09 PM (#5795699)
Even with a substantial RBI Baseball bonus, Baines falls short.
   73. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: December 09, 2018 at 10:09 PM (#5795700)
Misirlou, small nitpick: Will Clark actually was on this year's ballot. They picked Baines instead.

Hershiser is actually the only SP on that ballot. He'll probably go in next year. Eh, he was better than Jack Morris anyhow.
   74. SoSH U at work Posted: December 09, 2018 at 10:10 PM (#5795701)
By the way, you can make a pretty good argument that Smith shouldn't have been eligible for this ballot. While more of his career was played after 1988 than before it, the vast majority of his value was delivered between 1980 and 1987.

Honestly, they created this modern era far too early, which is a big reason you end up with Hal Baines, Hall of Famer. There was no need for this particular time period for at least one more election cycle, possibly two.
   75. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: December 09, 2018 at 10:13 PM (#5795702)
Hershiser is actually the only SP on that ballot. He'll probably go in next year.

Different group of players are up next year (the 1970-87 group), so... probably not.
   76. JRVJ Posted: December 09, 2018 at 10:15 PM (#5795704)
73, if I understand how the Veterans Committee's voting cycle operates, the Today's Game slate will not be up for election again for 3 more years.

Next year would be Modern Baseball (hopefully Ted Simmons, Whitaker and Grich get in) and 2020 is both Golden Days and Early Baseball.
   77. SoSH U at work Posted: December 09, 2018 at 10:19 PM (#5795706)
Next year would be Modern Baseball (hopefully Ted Simmons, Whitaker and Grich get in)


Simmons and Whitaker should have good shots (Simmons was close last time, and there was a lot of talk about Whitaker getting snubbed when he was left off the ballot, and Tram's election should help).

Grich needs to make a ballot first. Electing Whitaker would probably help him.
   78. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: December 09, 2018 at 10:19 PM (#5795707)
Ohhhh, that's good. Now we can look forward to the long overdue enshrinements of Al Oliver and Kent Tekulve!
   79. Howie Menckel Posted: December 09, 2018 at 10:20 PM (#5795708)
Tommy (WTF knows why) McCarthy.


McCarthy was one half of the fabled "Heavenly Twins" Boston Beaneaters OF duo of the 1890s.
the other was Hugh Duffy, whose claim to fame here is that he has received more HOM votes points than anyone else - aided, of course, by still not being elected after a century of votes.

McCarthy also was a pioneer sign stealer and expert on pretending to misplay a fly ball to entrap baserunners.

I mean, those are terrible reasons, but we do know why.

The Heavenly Twins

Baines is hardly the first HOFer to never gain a slot in the annual 15 choices made by each HOM voter. the most famous might be Catfish Hunter, whose 'fame' status is very solid - though merit, not so much.
   80. Mefisto Posted: December 09, 2018 at 10:21 PM (#5795709)
The thing about some of the other nominees for "worst selection", is that they may very well have had HOF talent, though not HOF careers. Take Travis Jackson, for example. These are his 6 consecutive seasons through the age of 27: 4.5, 5.1, 5.4, 5.7, 4.9, 5.4. That's a HOF trajectory. Then he hurt his knee and was never the same. Even Freddie Lindstrom had 2 seasons at 6.4, in one of which he finished 2d in the MVP voting. Injuries again derailed his career.

High Pockets Kelly is a decent comp for Baines. Even Kelly, though, finished 3d one year and 6th another in MVP voting, plus he played on a team that won 4 straight pennants.
   81. JRVJ Posted: December 09, 2018 at 10:21 PM (#5795710)
Simmons was one vote shy last year, and I definitely think Whitaker will have some momentum due to the support of Trammell and Morris.

I doubt Grich makes the ballot, but one can hope.

In any case, I'll be happy if any of the above three make it next year, and will be extremely happy if two out of three get inducted.
   82. Baldrick Posted: December 09, 2018 at 10:22 PM (#5795711)
The proliferation of these awful committees threatens to make the whole process even more of a joke than it already was.

Yes, there are guys on the outside that should be included. And yes there has to be SOME way to induct people that the writers missed. But regular votes from tiny panels is a recipe for inducting a bunch of people who CLEARLY don't belong, and just degrade the whole process.

It's an embarrassment to the Hall, and an insult to guys like Martinez and Mussina, not to mention folks like Rolen and Grich and Dwight Evans, who may NEVER get inducted while Harold Freaking Baines has a plaque there forever.
   83. Ziggy is done with Dominican discotheques Posted: December 09, 2018 at 10:28 PM (#5795713)
They should have scrapped the vet's committee (or whatever the second-chance committee of the week is called) after the Mazeroski debacle. But this really seals the deal. So Whitaker never gets in, big deal. Does he really want to be in a club with Harold Baines anyway?

In 1985 James wrote that the hall of fame is incapable of honoring Carl Yastrzemski. That was thirty three years ago. At this point the hall of fame is incapable of honoring a tuna sandwich.
   84. PreservedFish Posted: December 09, 2018 at 10:35 PM (#5795716)
Well, it's capable of honoring Harold Baines, at least.
   85. JRVJ Posted: December 09, 2018 at 10:35 PM (#5795717)
So Whitaker never gets in, big deal. Does he really want to be in a club with Harold Baines anyway?


I would think he does, not because of Baines, but because it's the Hall of Ruth, Cobb, Mays, Williams, Aaron, Schmidt, Pedro, Gibson, Maddux, Randy, Griffey, Jackie, Brett, Carew, Morgan, etc., etc., etc.

   86. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: December 09, 2018 at 10:35 PM (#5795718)
I assumed this was a joke when I first saw the headline.

You and me both. Harold Baines?
   87. Mike A Posted: December 09, 2018 at 10:37 PM (#5795720)
On the plus side, this gives me hope Dale Murphy gets in someday. But still...this is just weird.
   88. The Duke Posted: December 09, 2018 at 10:39 PM (#5795721)
Makes vizquel a lock and extend hope to Al oliver, vada pinson, and Johnny damon
   89. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: December 09, 2018 at 10:42 PM (#5795723)
Like most here, I thought this was an Onion headline too.
   90. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: December 09, 2018 at 10:49 PM (#5795724)
I think that besides the hit & RBI totals, the case for Baines (and note that I don't buy this case for a second) is that he was the best DH of his generation, and if you're the best X of your generation then you should be in the Hall. This is also why closers should be in the Hall; it's a key position and you're comparing their value to that of other closers and not to the value of starting pitchers or center fielders. (Also note that I don't know if Baines was actually the best DH of his generation; I haven't spent three seconds thinking about the question, which I suspect is still more time than the comittee spent on it.)

After Vizquel, the next guy on the all-time hits list who's not a Hall of Famers, probable future Hall of Famer, steroids case, or Pete Rose, is Johnny Damon. Baines was a much better hitter than Damon and I never got the idea that Damon was well-liked. But Damon played 1300 games of averageish CF, was a valuable baserunner, and played a major part on an epochal championship team. He has to go in, right?

EDIT: A Moxie to the Duke.
   91. Howie Menckel Posted: December 09, 2018 at 10:53 PM (#5795726)
ah, Pinson.

a CF who played in virtually every game of his first 9 full seasons (660+ PAs in every season).

faded before turning 30, but still a 111 OPS+ in career 10,403 PA

he got much discussion re HOM in his first years, and a younger relative of his actually wrote her appreciation for that in his HOM thread. that was nice - but in the end we don't vote based on sentiments.

but yeah, I don't know how he is less qualified than Baines
   92. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: December 09, 2018 at 10:53 PM (#5795727)
Baines played for a very long time as an average player. Among players with over 10,000 PA, 1 WAA, and not in the HOF, Baines ranks dead last.
   93. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: December 09, 2018 at 10:54 PM (#5795728)
Lee Smith had the best mound presence of his generation and was generally cool. If you're going to put someone in the Hall of Fame who shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame, it needs to be someone like that. At least he was memorable.
   94. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: December 09, 2018 at 10:54 PM (#5795729)
Lofl. Baines, but no Bonds. Smith, but not Clemens.

This injustice will be rectified when a future Steroids Era Committee elects everyone from Bonds, Clemens, Rodriguez, Sosa, McGwire, Palmeiro, and Ramirez down to around Dee Gordon, Nelson Cruz, and Melky Cabrera.
   95. Al "Battery" Kaline Posted: December 09, 2018 at 10:55 PM (#5795730)
Hey, I read the article. We were one vote away from adding Lou Piniella to this list.

I would have rather seen Piniella get elected than...oh, never mind.

In Conrad Bain's favor...
- He did lead the league in slugging once
- He hit well vs Nolan Ryan
- The "beaten but not dead" streak mentioned by #12 is pretty darn amazing
- Admit it, you called him "Baines Burgers" when you were young, didn't you?
   96. SoSH U at work Posted: December 09, 2018 at 10:56 PM (#5795731)
He has to go in, right?


If he's on a ballot like this, maybe. But he almost certainly won't be on such a shitty ballot.

Baines didn't get in because people thought he was better than a bunch of guys on the BBWAA ballot right now. He got in because he was on a ballot that had, other than Lee Smith, appeared on a combined 11 Hall of Fame ballots, almost half of them by Baines.
   97. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: December 09, 2018 at 10:58 PM (#5795732)
[60] Oops. Yes, Travis Jackson.

[80] So you wouldn’t be upset if Grady Sizemore gets elected then?
   98. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: December 09, 2018 at 11:00 PM (#5795733)
and if you're the best X of your generation then you should be in the Hall. This is also why closers should be in the Hall;


How long is a generation? Closers in the hall:

Fingers - 1968-1985
Gossage 1972-1994
Sutter - 1976-1988
Smith - 1980-1997


Who was the best closer in 1979-83?
   99. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: December 09, 2018 at 11:00 PM (#5795734)
I think that besides the hit & RBI totals, the case for Baines (and note that I don't buy this case for a second) is that he was the best DH of his generation

Only if you don't consider him a contemporary of Edgar; 1980-2001 vs. 1987-2004. Edgar peaked late, I guess, and wasn't a DH right away.

Also, Baines won ONE Silver Slugger at DH (and none anywhere else). Paul Molitor won four during Baines's career, Don Baylor three.

(I get that you weren't actually making this argument, but still; it's both a bad argument and an incorrect one.)
   100. Al "Battery" Kaline Posted: December 09, 2018 at 11:02 PM (#5795735)
As for Smith, perhaps this will get the ball rolling for Billy "Kill the Wabbit" Voggner, who typically has twice the vote support of Baines.
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