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Wednesday, May 02, 2012

OT: Soccer Thread—May 2012

League all around will have their Champion decided! Bilbao or Atlético Madrid will reign over the Europa League! Chelsea tries to finally bring Roman a European Cup

And most important of all…West Ham drives for promotion!

RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: May 02, 2012 at 09:53 PM | 1485 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: soccer

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   101. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: May 05, 2012 at 01:54 PM (#4124199)
I thought it was in.
   102. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: May 05, 2012 at 01:55 PM (#4124200)
No, it looks on replay like it was right but not by much at all. Great call by the linesman.
   103. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: May 05, 2012 at 01:56 PM (#4124202)
I couldn't tell one way or the other based on replays.
   104. frannyzoo Posted: May 05, 2012 at 01:57 PM (#4124203)
Couldn't tell either, so that means no goal. Agree on the linesman, and Suarez is so classy.
   105. puck Posted: May 05, 2012 at 01:58 PM (#4124205)
If the score holds, what a heartbreak. Hard to get closer than that.
   106. puck Posted: May 05, 2012 at 02:00 PM (#4124207)
As for Sheffield United, thanks for the gruesome updates.


Yeah, I looked up the stories...the shitstorm on twitter abusing the victim make the story even worse.
   107. frannyzoo Posted: May 05, 2012 at 02:02 PM (#4124210)
If Carroll starts this game, what's the score right now? I hope Bayern is taking notes on Chelsea's defensive inability in the air. No, actually I don't hope they're taking notes because I can't stand them. Or Chelsea...what a bummer CL final.
   108. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: May 05, 2012 at 02:03 PM (#4124211)
Carroll I think works better as a sub than a starter. Let him come on with something to prove. The guy I felt should have started was Kuyt, his nonstop energy is more valuable over 90 minutes.
   109. FancyPantsHandle glistening with foreign substance Posted: May 05, 2012 at 02:04 PM (#4124212)
what a bummer CL final


Amen on that.
   110. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: May 05, 2012 at 02:08 PM (#4124214)
Entertaining final.
   111. FancyPantsHandle glistening with foreign substance Posted: May 05, 2012 at 02:09 PM (#4124217)
Kagawa to United.
   112. puck Posted: May 05, 2012 at 02:11 PM (#4124219)
So, what do you make of Chelsea's season and prospects? Was AVB really just overmatched or was he not given enough time and authority to do his thing? Can they reload with all the old guys in place and vindicated? It's been a remarkable resurgence, at any rate.
   113. Swedish Chef Posted: May 05, 2012 at 02:45 PM (#4124252)
Was AVB really just overmatched or was he not given enough time and authority to do his thing?

He flubbed his relationship with the senior players. While it is easy to have sympathy for him, it's all on him. As far as I can tell, he wasn't undermined by anyone else in the management and while it would be nice if Lampard and Terry et all had less bloated egos, it's his job to handle them.

It was a tough task for him, he had to learn to manage at an entirely new level, with superstars and entourages and all that, and not take a step wrong at the same time. Mourinho did that, of course, and AVB was meant to be a carbon copy of that appointment. Turns out there is only one Mourinho.
   114. Spivey Posted: May 05, 2012 at 02:53 PM (#4124262)
AVB had the team quit on him, and he appeared to make decisions about who was playing and who wasn't that was unpopular with the veterans. But. And this is a big but. But their team is getting results, but I do question how sustainable this is. They were outplayed by Liverpool. They got lucky against Barcelona. I didn't get to watch that game, but it sounds like there were missed opportunities as well as good defense. Chelsea's defense was garbage today.

They've got some good counter-attacking players but everything isn't automatically fixed and they're not suddenly one of the best teams in the world. I still think they're a clear step below Man U, Man City, Bayern, Dortmund, Real, and Barcelona.

I like Bayern as a pretty clear favorite in the CL final. At home, and they're just flat out better. Chelsea was abysmal in the air today, which really surprised me.
   115. Shooty is in the Trust Tree Posted: May 05, 2012 at 03:11 PM (#4124278)
Bacary Sagna broke his leg again just picking a ball out of the air. Can't help but think he probably shouldn't have come back from his broken leg earlier in the season at all this year. He's definitely not playing in the Euros.
   116. Shooty is in the Trust Tree Posted: May 05, 2012 at 03:15 PM (#4124282)
Oh yeah, and Andy Carroll looked really good. He's never going to be a 35 million dollar player so I with the media and fans would quit harping on it. He can be a very effective target man if used right, though. That was a hell of a call by the linesman on the no-goal. Too bad he didn't work the semi-finals, too.
   117. FancyPantsHandle glistening with foreign substance Posted: May 05, 2012 at 03:21 PM (#4124289)
Oh yeah, and Andy Carroll looked really good. He's never going to be a 35 million dollar player so I with the media and fans would quit harping on it.

Not to harp, but that's 35 million pounds, tyvm.
   118. Swedish Chef Posted: May 05, 2012 at 03:26 PM (#4124295)
When are Spurs fans going to quit harping about a goal in match they got slaughtered in?
   119. Shooty is in the Trust Tree Posted: May 05, 2012 at 03:28 PM (#4124297)
When are Spurs fans going to quit harping about a goal in match they got slaughtered in?

Never! ####### Chelsea.

Not to harp, but that's 35 million pounds, tyvm.

At least I didn't type "yen".
   120. Textbook Editor Posted: May 05, 2012 at 03:29 PM (#4124299)
So in the simplest terms: Newcastle and Spurs win out, they're both in the CL spots (with Spurs in 3rd).

   121. Shooty is in the Trust Tree Posted: May 05, 2012 at 03:33 PM (#4124303)
So in the simplest terms: Newcastle and Spurs win out, they're both in the CL spots (with Spurs in 3rd).

Yep. Then Newcastle would have to sweat the CL Final. Fancy Pants will probably split in half, literally. It's gonna be icky!
   122. FancyPantsHandle glistening with foreign substance Posted: May 05, 2012 at 03:33 PM (#4124305)
   123. FancyPantsHandle glistening with foreign substance Posted: May 05, 2012 at 03:34 PM (#4124307)
Fancy Pants will probably split in half, literally. It's gonna be icky!

Just remember who has all the doomsday devices stashed away!
   124. Shooty is in the Trust Tree Posted: May 05, 2012 at 03:37 PM (#4124311)
I guess that isn't cologne those cops are spraying?

HAHAHAHAHAHA! I'M AWESOME!
   125. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: May 05, 2012 at 05:31 PM (#4124355)
Kölner fans take relegation with their renowned good humour.
I'm kind of surprised German fans would riot like that. Somehow I always pictured them as too orderly for that.

Of course, now I have the mental image of them having a very orderly German riot.
   126. FancyPantsHandle glistening with foreign substance Posted: May 05, 2012 at 05:50 PM (#4124362)
I'm kind of surprised German fans would riot like that. Somehow I always pictured them as too orderly for that.

Clearly. BTW, fans in Dortmund tore down the goals so they could salvage the net as a souvenir. Also took pieces of turf from the pitch...

But back to Köln.
   127. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: May 05, 2012 at 09:20 PM (#4124434)
I had no idea that Chuck Klosterman played goal for the Red Bulls
   128. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: May 05, 2012 at 11:11 PM (#4124477)
He flubbed his relationship with the senior players. While it is easy to have sympathy for him, it's all on him. As far as I can tell, he wasn't undermined by anyone else in the management and while it would be nice if Lampard and Terry et all had less bloated egos, it's his job to handle them.


While it's true that it's his job I think it's more on Terry etc... and Abramovich. The players should be professional enough to show up and play hard and not be a whiny bunch of crybabies (I can watch the Red Sox if I want to see that). At the same time, Abramovich has to know what he's doing when he hires AVB. He either needs to give AVB the freedom to kick Terry and friends to the curb if they're not getting it done or he needs to hire someone palatable to the inmates if he's going to let them run the asylum.
   129. Swedish Chef Posted: May 06, 2012 at 04:04 AM (#4124529)
He either needs to give AVB the freedom to kick Terry and friends to the curb

But these are good players, there is nothing worse than a manager that kicks perfectly good players into the freezer because of personal animosity, that is the ultimate sign of a weak manager. It's up to AVB to impress them with his authority, not to make big daddy Abramovich take care of the nasty kids. There is no manager that is so good tactically that he is worth nannying because he can't handle uppity players. It's AVB's and nobody else's job to make the players love him or, failing that, to fear him.

And of course, AVB had trouble making his tactics work too. If those had worked from the off, the chemistry would probably have been just great.

So in the end, AVB got a handsomely rewarded internship at a major club. Bet he'll put that to good use on his next job.
   130. Juan V Posted: May 06, 2012 at 04:55 AM (#4124532)
The situation was more complicated than "who does this guy think he is, to be bossing us around" (or simpler; the tactics didn't fit the squad and the veterans made it clear), was it? After all, the Chelsea old guard all knew AVB as one of Jose's assistants.
   131. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: May 06, 2012 at 08:47 AM (#4124540)
City just seem to have 13 players right now. There doesn't seem to be any space for Newcastle.
   132. frannyzoo Posted: May 06, 2012 at 08:49 AM (#4124541)
It's scoreless, but it's looking 0-4 City by the end of things at this point.
   133. frannyzoo Posted: May 06, 2012 at 08:59 AM (#4124546)
St. Pauli looks to need five more goals in twenty minutes to match Dusseldorf in goal difference.
   134. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: May 06, 2012 at 09:10 AM (#4124548)
So who gets sent off first?
   135. FancyPantsHandle glistening with foreign substance Posted: May 06, 2012 at 09:41 AM (#4124555)
Go Villa!
   136. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: May 06, 2012 at 09:52 AM (#4124560)
I just can't see Newcastle scoring today. They aren't doing anything to pressure City.

De Jong for Nasri? That's a defensive change for a side that needs three points.
   137. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: May 06, 2012 at 10:00 AM (#4124565)
I think that's a title winning goal for Toure.
   138. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: May 06, 2012 at 10:00 AM (#4124566)
If you're going to win a title that's a goal worthy of the occasion.
   139. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: May 06, 2012 at 10:12 AM (#4124568)
What a surprise. Spurs are ####### it up. Give up a fluke goal in the first half, can't find the net, get a stupid red card.
   140. frannyzoo Posted: May 06, 2012 at 10:27 AM (#4124574)
Napoli, once again, flubbing their lines. I'm so very glad I'm not a fan of that club.

And Yaya...is one fabulous footballer.
   141. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: May 06, 2012 at 10:58 AM (#4124584)
It would be nice if Spurs had any ability to score from corners. I guess no one wants to finish in third. I predict on the final day Arsenal slump to a draw but Spurs manage to lose or draw as well.
   142. Shooty is in the Trust Tree Posted: May 06, 2012 at 11:00 AM (#4124586)
Aston Villa are so crap. They looked like a 3rd division side trying to hold on against a PL team in the FA Cup even with a man advantage. Frustrating but the result isn't all that surprising. One more week for this torture of a season to end.
   143. Mattbert Posted: May 06, 2012 at 11:01 AM (#4124588)
Bring on Scotty Parker for VDV with ten minutes left when you desperately need to score.

Genius.
   144. Swedish Chef Posted: May 06, 2012 at 11:04 AM (#4124589)
I don't think Bolton can overcome a 17-goal swing in the last game, so that was that for Villa, an awful season.
   145. Swedish Chef Posted: May 06, 2012 at 11:07 AM (#4124594)
One more week for this torture of a season to end.

And maybe another week's wait to see if Chelsea will spoil a fourth place finish.
   146. Textbook Editor Posted: May 06, 2012 at 11:09 AM (#4124596)
Bring on Scotty Parker for VDV with ten minutes left when you desperately need to score.


Yeah, unless VDV was done (and they worried about injury), that made no sense.

The shame of this is that with a win they would have at least guaranteed a top-4 finish, regardless of the outcome next week.

And with Rose suspended for the final game, what to they do there? At least they got the point, so they give themselves a chance if Arsenal draw, but beating Fulham ain't gonna be easy.


   147. Swedish Chef Posted: May 06, 2012 at 11:11 AM (#4124597)
But after that the Euros begin! I'll put my money on organizational chaos, English disappointment and German penalty kicking superiority.
   148. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: May 06, 2012 at 11:12 AM (#4124598)
Yeah, unless VDV was done (and they worried about injury), that made no sense.
VDV was done around the 75 minute mark, like always. Taking him off was the right call. Taking him off for Parker made no sense at all.
   149. Spivey Posted: May 06, 2012 at 11:22 AM (#4124603)
If Fulham finishes above Liverpool in the table I'll be tickled pink.

It will be sad as a Fulham fan to see Dempsey go. He and Brian McBride were why I picked them as my favorite team in the EPL. But he's ready to play for trophies, and I know he's spoken openly about going to a team where he can do that.
   150. Mattbert Posted: May 06, 2012 at 11:23 AM (#4124604)
VDV was done around the 75 minute mark, like always. Taking him off was the right call. Taking him off for Parker made no sense at all.

Exactly. Harry really needed to find a way to get Defoe on the pitch for at least the last 15 minutes. Villa are too good at dealing with crosses and corners (and Spurs' delivery is far too ####) for Spurs to have much of chance via that route. Best hope was someone making a shooting chance out of nothing, and nobody in the squad is better at that than JD.

What a ####### buzzkill this season has been. Can’t wait for the 0-0 to Fulham.
   151. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: May 06, 2012 at 11:34 AM (#4124606)
Exactly. Harry really needed to find a way to get Defoe on the pitch for at least the last 15 minutes. Villa are too good at dealing with crosses and corners (and Spurs' delivery is far too ####) for Spurs to have much of chance via that route. Best hope was someone making a shooting chance out of nothing, and nobody in the squad is better at that than JD.

He was about to bring Defoe on early in the second half, then took it back after the penalty. It was definitely bizarre that he never brought him on at any point when Spurs needed a goal.
   152. Textbook Editor Posted: May 06, 2012 at 11:55 AM (#4124616)
Can ManU make up a -8 GD in 135 minutes? Wouldn't this be the time (if any) to try some crazy tactics (like playing 4 strikers up front and only 2 defenders? They can't lose 2nd place, they're not going to lose this game--they might as well make a try to make up the GD, right?
   153. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: May 06, 2012 at 12:25 PM (#4124628)
It would be pretty entertaining to see a Rooney, Berbatov, Welbeck, Chicharito front four as part of some wacky 2-4-4 formation. I have no idea if that would actually work, but it would be fun.
   154. Textbook Editor Posted: May 06, 2012 at 12:37 PM (#4124637)
I'm just thinking if there's ever a situation to say "F-it, let's just go for goal 100% of the time," it's now. Playing "normally" won't get them a title, as there is very, very little chance of a City draw/loss at home to QPR.
   155. Swedish Chef Posted: May 06, 2012 at 01:35 PM (#4124655)
I'm just thinking if there's ever a situation to say "F-it, let's just go for goal 100% of the time," it's now.

It's not easy, Swansea is too good a team to quit playing defense against. If you front-load the attack the players who are supposed to deliver the balls would be exposed and vulnerable. The net result will probably just that be the surplus attackers will fall down the pitch to support the midfield. Or in the worst case, the team splits in two halves and Swansea gets space for counter-attacking.

It would be a pipe dream anyway. The goal difference is a lost cause. United can do no more than to win their game and root for QPR.

Playing "normally" won't get them a title, as there is very, very little chance of a City draw/loss at home to QPR.

It's not zero, more like 15-20% or so.
   156. Arnett Mead (Arjun) Posted: May 06, 2012 at 04:02 PM (#4124735)
This is a fun Milan derby.
   157. Spivey Posted: May 06, 2012 at 04:05 PM (#4124738)
Yaya Toure is a hell of a ####### player. Having a machine that plays box to box like that is exactly what the team needs with all of the other guys they have.
   158. Spivey Posted: May 06, 2012 at 04:13 PM (#4124739)
QPR isn't going to beat Man City, but they're also not going to roll over. If they lose, they could be relegated. Even 1 point is huge for them.
   159. puck Posted: May 06, 2012 at 10:51 PM (#4125098)
De Jong for Nasri? That's a defensive change for a side that needs three points.


The color guy called that one pretty well. De Jong stays back and allows Toure freedom to move forward. Toure ended up bailing out Aguero who was oddly wasteful today.
   160. ursus arctos Posted: May 07, 2012 at 12:36 PM (#4125375)
West Ham cruising against Cardiff City.
   161. Borussia, Du bist so wunderschön! (Mark Edward) Posted: May 07, 2012 at 01:04 PM (#4125403)

Osasuna has a chance to qualify for a Europa League spot with a win & some other things going their way. They have a goal differential of -19. WTF.
   162. andrewberg Posted: May 07, 2012 at 01:08 PM (#4125407)
Long time reader, first time poster in soccer thread. I'm a QPR fan (my dad was stationed near Loftus Road in the air force and passed it down). Yesterday's win was hideously ugly and almost undeserved, but still vitally important. Bolton went up 2-0 and blew it late for a draw. The relegation scenario shakes out like this: QPR is 2 points clear of Bolton. Bolton plays @Stoke (a tough location, I have been told, though Stoke is struggling greatly). QPR plays @City in a game that seems hopeless. QPR has surprisingly mucked things up to beat Liverpool and Chelsea when they were overmatched earlier in the year, though each came when the opponent was seemingly distracted. City should be single minded this weekend. QPR's goal differential lead will remain better than Bolton's, but that only matters with a Bolton win and QPR tie. It seems to me that the most likely result is both sides losing away and QPR staying up, followed by QPR losing and Bolton either drawing or winning at Stoke, which would make for an interesting final few minutes in that match.
   163. Crispix Attacks 2: Swag Airlines Posted: May 07, 2012 at 01:17 PM (#4125417)
Osasuna has a chance to qualify for a Europa League spot with a win & some other things going their way. They have a goal differential of -19. WTF.

To be fair, only 4 out of 20 teams in La Liga have a goal differential better than +1.
   164. FancyPantsHandle glistening with foreign substance Posted: May 07, 2012 at 01:23 PM (#4125428)
FWIW, the bookies have QPR at about 70-75% to stay up.
   165. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: May 07, 2012 at 01:37 PM (#4125440)
Stoke have nothing but professional pride to play for and their style of play is largely based on determination. They don't win by being stylish, they bludgeon people. If they don't show up ready to play well Bolton could beat them. I don't know what the financial differences are but Stoke could finish anywhere from 10th to 14th next weekend so they may have that to play for.

I think QPR are going to pull out the draw with City though. This EPL season has been all about failure. Every time a team has had something in their grasp they have failed to seal the deal;

City had the title early and gave it away
United had it late and gave it away
No one seems to want 4th with Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs and Newcastle all giving it away at various points
Even in Europe the English clubs rolled over in both the CL and the Europa League (save Chelsea)
The League Cup was won on a penalty that went wide
Chelsea did everything in their power to blow a 2-0 lead in the FA Cup final

I just feel like we're in for one more "oops, what happened here" moment.
   166. andrewberg Posted: May 07, 2012 at 01:37 PM (#4125441)
I would put it in that neighborhood, maybe slightly lower, say 60-70%. Maybe I am underrating the chance of a draw @City.
   167. FancyPantsHandle glistening with foreign substance Posted: May 07, 2012 at 01:54 PM (#4125472)
I don't know what the financial differences are but Stoke could finish anywhere from 10th to 14th next weekend so they may have that to play for.

Should be about 1m per place IIRC.
   168. PepTech Posted: May 07, 2012 at 04:42 PM (#4125625)
City and MUFC both draw. You saw it here first!
   169. ursus arctos Posted: May 07, 2012 at 04:53 PM (#4125635)
Well done Wigan.
   170. Rennie's Tenet Posted: May 07, 2012 at 05:02 PM (#4125646)
Maybe time for one of these teams to change their name from Rovers or Wanderers to the "Staying-Right-Here-in-This-Leagues."
   171. DA Baracus is gritty and hits with RISP Posted: May 07, 2012 at 05:05 PM (#4125650)
Or catfish.
   172. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: May 07, 2012 at 05:05 PM (#4125651)
I'm not sure if there is anything to this but I was thinking about it today. The winners of the top leagues in Europe this year for the most part flamed out of other competitions. ManCity went out in the group stage of the Champions League (though they played four Europa League matches subsequently) and the first round of the FA Cup (well, "Third Round Proper"), Juventus didn't play in Europe and Borussia Dortmund went out in the Group Stage of the CL.

I don't know if that's relevant or not but it struck me as interesting.

La Liga was immune to this but Madrid and Barca are much bigger clubs than anyone else there.
   173. Flynn Posted: May 07, 2012 at 05:13 PM (#4125659)
Well, for Madrid and Barca, going out in the semis probably counts as flaming out.

So, the Jerome Anderson/Indian chicken merchants experiment failed miserably. I'm guessing Jack Walker is rolling over in his grave, though he's probably been doing that ever since his family trust decided to cheap out on the club.
   174. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: May 07, 2012 at 05:30 PM (#4125673)
On to Wembley!
   175. Shooty is in the Trust Tree Posted: May 07, 2012 at 05:55 PM (#4125688)
So, the Jerome Anderson/Indian chicken merchants experiment failed miserably. I'm guessing Jack Walker is rolling over in his grave, though he's probably been doing that ever since his family trust decided to cheap out on the club.

I honestly don't see Blackburn getting promoted back to the PL under the current ownership. They really don't seem to know what they're doing and they're going to lose their most valuable asset--Hoilett--for nothing. It's a long way from the heady days of the Ronaldinho and Raul rumors. Blackburn fans saw it coming, I suppose, when they made no effort to keep Jermaine Jones and the ridiculous "Phil Jones has a what-out clause in his contract?" fiasco.

In happier news, Forza Torino. 4 games to promotion. A win this Saturday against Pescara and I think they're promoted, though there's only 3 points separating the top 4 sides. Sampdoria has worked their way into a playoff spot. Hard to believe they're 2 years removed from the Champions League. They do, however, continue to have a fantastic badge.
   176. ursus arctos Posted: May 07, 2012 at 06:03 PM (#4125697)
Here's a factoid for all of you.

In the 1994-95 season, Real Madrid, Juventus, Borussia Dortmund, Porto, Ajax and Blackburn Rovers won their respective leagues.
   177. Shooty is in the Trust Tree Posted: May 07, 2012 at 06:20 PM (#4125713)
In the 1994-95 season, Real Madrid, Juventus, Borussia Dortmund, Porto, Ajax and Blackburn Rovers won their respective leagues.

In a way, it's fitting that the financially doped Man City are taking Blackburn's place on that list.
   178. nick swisher hygiene Posted: May 07, 2012 at 06:37 PM (#4125730)
Question from a casual but increasingly interested soccer fan: if I don't care that some MLB teams have bigger payrolls than other MLB teams, should I therefore not care about "financial doping" (sorry for the scare quotes, but the analogy just seems silly as ####)? Or is the issue fundamentally not parallel? Anybody got a good broad-based analysis they can link?
   179. Crispix Attacks 2: Swag Airlines Posted: May 07, 2012 at 07:21 PM (#4125759)
I think the existence of relegation/promotion makes it more problematic. Teams that can afford to run losses on the whims of their owners drive up the price of players and wages, and teams like the aforementioned Aston Villa and Bolton find themselves in an unsustainable situation where either they spend 80% of their net income on player wages or they get relegated. And when eventually they draw the short stick and get relegated anyway, it's like when a company gets downgraded by the rating agencies - they can undergo a complete spiral like Leeds a few years ago and Portsmouth now.

Maybe it would be nice to see MLB's more parsimonious and greedy owners be faced with the thread of relegation if they choose to spend a decade letting every player go who makes more than half a million dollars and isn't named Brad Radke or Hanley Ramirez, but it would also mean teams that simply have less income would start acting desperate and going into debt, like the New Mexico State football team.

In the presence of financial doping, the alternative to widespread unsustainability is an equilibrium where every team other than the Big Four acts like West Brom and doesn't try to do more than go .500. But people don't like that either.

Leagues with hardly any "financial doping" recently are Germany and France. They seem like they have good systems. Bordeaux suddenly became really good largely because of their coach, and now he left and they're mediocre again. They didn't suddenly become good because they were bought by the Archduke of Belgravia and then end up playing in the Northwest Counties League once he left.
   180. Mattbert Posted: May 07, 2012 at 08:08 PM (#4125791)
I don't know what the financial differences are but Stoke could finish anywhere from 10th to 14th next weekend so they may have that to play for.

I believe the financial incentive is around three quarters of a million pounds per place in the table for those mid-tier clubs. Not huge, but it ain't chump change either. If your read on Stoke is correct, that's almost 4MM quid to be had for the club this weekend. Not too shabby.

There's been talk of changing the payout so that players get a cut of that "merit payment" and would therefore be more inclined to lay it on the line late in the season if they don't otherwise have anything to play for besides making some extra coin for ownership.
   181. FancyPantsHandle glistening with foreign substance Posted: May 07, 2012 at 08:35 PM (#4125820)
Leagues with hardly any "financial doping" recently are Germany and France. They seem like they have good systems. Bordeaux suddenly became really good largely because of their coach, and now he left and they're mediocre again. They didn't suddenly become good because they were bought by the Archduke of Belgravia and then end up playing in the Northwest Counties League once he left.

*Shrug* The likes of Bayern, ManU, Real, Bayern, Juve and Bayern have been buying titles for decades. If an owner wants to spend some of his own cash to level the playing field, I personally have no problem with that.
   182. J. Sosa Posted: May 07, 2012 at 09:58 PM (#4125928)
re: 181

One of my favorite pastimes at the office is listening to a friend of mine (who is a die hard Yankee fan) rant about City's profligate ways. Its almost as good as listening to a Man U supporter complain about the nouveau-richeness of City.
   183. Swedish Chef Posted: May 08, 2012 at 01:59 AM (#4126136)
if I don't care that some MLB teams have bigger payrolls than other MLB teams, should I therefore not care about "financial doping" (sorry for the scare quotes, but the analogy just seems silly as ####)? Or is the issue fundamentally not parallel? Anybody got a good broad-based analysis they can link?

"Financial doping" refers to vanity teams run at a loss, something of a concern for entrenched big clubs and few others. One could make the case that Spain needs a whole lot more financial doping to break up the parody their league has become thanks to non-doped Real and Barcelona. I solved the problem for myself by simply not caring who wins in La Liga (more than rooting for the underdog, but in Spain there are no fairy tales), it's like watching the Yankees and Red Sox dropping down to AAA while boosting their payroll, it's nothing but Scotland squared.
   184. Juan V Posted: May 08, 2012 at 02:17 AM (#4126139)
Isn't the issue about financial doping less about the Man Cities and more about the Leedses?
   185. Swedish Chef Posted: May 08, 2012 at 02:26 AM (#4126141)
Isn't the issue about financial doping less about the Man Cities and more about the Leedses?

I don't see how FFS will help against undercapitalized owners like Gillett and Hicks or Ridsdale and co though, they are still free to borrow against everything a club owns. The rules are aimed against the Cities and Chelseas. Hmmm... are there really any more sugar-daddied big clubs than City, Chelsea and PSG around?
   186. Baldrick Posted: May 08, 2012 at 03:19 AM (#4126144)
It's a different system, etc. I get that, and don't really have a proposal for how to change things.

But you have to admit there is something fundamentally boring about knowing right now that there are only two (maybe three) teams with any realistic shot of winning the EPL NEXT season. Or knowing that it will be at least three or four years (and maybe many more than that) before anyone can even challenge Real or Barca. In La Liga this year the gap between 2nd and 3rd place is as big as the gap between 3rd and last place.

In some ways, I almost wish the big clubs really did just split off and form their own super-continental league. I would love for Manchester United fans to know the taste of the occasional mid-table finish. And then the rest of us could try to have a real league.
   187. Obi One Kenobi Nil Posted: May 08, 2012 at 05:17 AM (#4126156)
I gave up caring which team won the league buy spending more money then the other teams around them a long time ago. Now I pretty much just watch to be entertained for ninety minutes once or twice a week.

This year I've not even bothered watching the Champions League. I just couldn't bring myself to care all that much or watch players have hissy fits at officials / play with 11 men behind the ball as they try and Mourinho their way to a trophy.
   188. ursus arctos Posted: May 08, 2012 at 07:48 AM (#4126164)
It's interesting to note the references to France, because that is where both the term "financial doping" and the first measures to combat it had their origins. The initial French regulations (which essentially require clubs to demonstrate that they have sufficient resources to complete the season and prohibit excessive levels of debt) had their origins in the excesses of clubs like OM and Bordeaux in the 80s, as well as the practice of a number of clubs to demand annual contributions from their local councils.

Sharing television revenues more equitably would make the Spanish playing field much more level, but there isn't necessarily a strong fan interest in having that happen. On the one hand, you have a significant number of supporters in countries like Italy, Spain and Portugal who believe that the domination of a small handful of clubs is the natural order of things (thus the phenomenon of people who support a "small" club also having a favorite "big"), as well as increased attention on the Champions League, where budgets are more comparable. Indeed, a favorite justification for Barca and Madrid's gargantuan slice of the Spanish television pie is that they would be at a serious disadvantage in Europe if they had to share more than others.

Personally, I prefer leagues in which resources are more equitably distributed, but that says as much about my politics as it does about my view of the sport.
   189. FancyPantsHandle glistening with foreign substance Posted: May 08, 2012 at 07:58 AM (#4126167)
Indeed, a favorite justification for Barca and Madrid's gargantuan slice of the Spanish television pie is that they would be at a serious disadvantage on a level playing field with 3 other teams in Europe if they had to share more than others.

Fixed, etcetera...
   190. Shooty is in the Trust Tree Posted: May 08, 2012 at 08:20 AM (#4126173)
It'll be interesting to see if the MLS, as it grows and can attract better players, will become more popular internationally since it offers a model of parity other leagues don't.

For me, Man City's success is just so boring. They've answered the age-old question--if you drop a billion dollars on a club will they win trophies? I'm glad we've got that answered. That said, if Silva and Aguero and Tevez combine for a great move to score a goal, there's still a visceral pleasure to it despite the fact in the moment leading up to the move I'm hoping for them to fall on their faces. I'm also happy Man City's long-suffering fans are getting some glory and hope they don't drift into the kind of fandom a lot of Chelsea fans have. Not all Chelsea fans, of course. It must be weird to have been a fan of Chelsea before the Abramovich years and to now get lumped in with all the bandwagon jumpers. Also, I realize sports fandom is kind of irrational and stupid and I constantly wonder why I care about this stuff so much. And then I think, goddam Golden State Warriors, why have you been kicking me in the balls for 30 years? But I digress...
   191. CWS Keith plans to boo your show at the Apollo Posted: May 08, 2012 at 09:33 AM (#4126191)
Hmmm... are there really any more sugar-daddied big clubs than City, Chelsea and PSG around?

Malaga? Wasn't AS Monaco recently purchased by a rich Russian, too?
   192. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: May 08, 2012 at 09:35 AM (#4126192)
Well, I'd still rather see Man City win this title than see United win yet another.
   193. Spivey Posted: May 08, 2012 at 09:57 AM (#4126212)
Well, I'd still rather see Man City win this title than see United win yet another.


I just assumed everyone was rooting for Man City in the title race. I want Balotelli to get a hat trick against QPR too, and see if the announcers praise him.
   194. zack Posted: May 08, 2012 at 10:04 AM (#4126222)
And if you choose to not root for a powerhouse, you get to see a thrilling finish to the season! Will Stoke make it all the way to 11th, or will they finish in 14th!? STAY TUNED. We will not talk about Kaiserslautern.

Go Delfini!
   195. ursus arctos Posted: May 08, 2012 at 10:26 AM (#4126239)
It depends on how wealthy and spendthrift you have to be to be to qualify as a sugar daddy.

Blackburn fans would welcome a resurrected Jack Walker back with open arms, while Joe Lewis (Spurs) and the Mittals (minority at QPR) have Abramovich-scale resources without Roman's penchant for setting money on fire.

And Shooty, as someone who knows quite a few pre-tycoon Chelsea and Man City fans, yes, it is difficult for them, particularly when they find themselves priced out of following a club they've supported for decades by people who couldn't tell Dennis Tueart from Chopper Harris.

   196. Arnett Mead (Arjun) Posted: May 08, 2012 at 10:26 AM (#4126240)
It must be weird to have been a fan of Chelsea before the Abramovich years and to now get lumped in with all the bandwagon jumpers.

It's honestly really not that bad. It's slightly annoying to be insulted by Spurs/Gunners/ManU/whatever fans, but that would happen regardless. It's more fun when people do a "prove it!" and I pull out one of my Chelsea jerseys with their old, pre-Abramovich logo and old sponsors, and then have them stare awkwardly (that's right, I'm a Chelsea fan, one of the reasons I don't like posting on SpursThinkFactory [:p, I'm just joking about that last bit]).

Really, it just gives an excuse to point out how all major clubs are financially doped in some way and have other fans look at you angrily.

Though having fans who don't really understand the history of the club around is pretty annoying. I find people exaggerate how much so, though. People just like to feel superior and "I know more about this than you!" is an easy way to do so.

Basically, I prefer to watch the sport, enjoy the games, and not complain about the circumstances. Or whether some team isn't attacking enough. I find that, no matter what, there's always something I can enjoy in a match (yes, even in a 0-0 draw. Try watching the positioning of the players and their potential passing routes) and that people who spend their time complaining lose sight of this.
   197. jmurph Posted: May 08, 2012 at 10:26 AM (#4126242)
I'm a City fan who started following them during the last season of the short-lived Sven era, so I'm kind of in a weird spot since they've become super rich. Then again, I'm a Boston sports fan, so I'm used to it.
   198. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: May 08, 2012 at 10:43 AM (#4126257)
One of the things that I've grown to love about soccer is my lack of a rooting interest. It is the one sport I can watch and generally just enjoy a good competitive game or a story of the day. Over time I've built up some rooting interests; Everton/Fulham for the US connections, Tottenham for the folks here, ManU because of a co-worker (he's from Manchester), Borussia Dortmund because of a chart someone posted recently, but I certainly wouldn't describe myself as a "fan" of any of these teams.
   199. zack Posted: May 08, 2012 at 10:43 AM (#4126258)
Speaking of finances, is there any site that records team wage bills (particularly total, not necessarily individual player salaries) for the various leagues historically? I can't remember what I was researching, but I was looking for it the other day and couldn't find a complete listing anywhere.
   200. Mattbert Posted: May 08, 2012 at 11:02 AM (#4126270)
I don't have historical data, but ESPN does an annual Top 100 money list for teams across all sports. All the big soccer clubs are on it. The 2012 list is here, and you can probably Google up previous years' lists for a short bit of history.
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