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Wednesday, May 02, 2012

OT: Soccer Thread—May 2012

League all around will have their Champion decided! Bilbao or Atlético Madrid will reign over the Europa League! Chelsea tries to finally bring Roman a European Cup

And most important of all…West Ham drives for promotion!

RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: May 02, 2012 at 09:53 PM | 1485 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: soccer

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   1401. DA Baracus is gritty and hits with RISP Posted: May 30, 2012 at 10:00 PM (#4143715)
I'm having a hard time feeling good about this game or seeing a good omen. The team defense is poor.

And this is a very young Brazil team.
   1402. Shooty is in the Trust Tree Posted: May 30, 2012 at 10:01 PM (#4143720)
Bring on Canada!
   1403. Borussia, Du bist so wunderschön! (Mark Edward) Posted: May 30, 2012 at 10:06 PM (#4143740)
Oh well. Gomez & Johnson were my men of the match.

I think I'd like to see something like this for the Canada match:
Jozy - Gomez
Dempsey
Jones - Bradley - LanDo
Johnson - Bocanegra - Onyewu - Cherundolo
Howard
   1404. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: May 31, 2012 at 01:25 AM (#4143892)
The US deserved to lose, but didn't deserve to lose by 3 goals.

This Brazil team might be young, but it's obviously quality ...

   1405. puck Posted: May 31, 2012 at 01:30 AM (#4143894)
Portland lost at home to a USASA (amateur) team coached by Eric Wynalda. Apparently Kris Boyd missed a PK and the amateurs (Cal FC) went on to score in extra time.
   1406. Textbook Editor Posted: May 31, 2012 at 01:40 AM (#4143897)
I had no idea Eric Wynalda was hated so much by US soccer folks, but skimming some articles that seems to be the case. Can't find a succinct version of why, though...
   1407. zack Posted: May 31, 2012 at 10:22 AM (#4144037)
"We need to get an edge more nastier. Maybe we're a little bit still too naive. Maybe we don't want to hurt people. But that's what we've got to do."

"You watch big teams in the world, what they do, and there's a call going against them -- Barcelona is one of them -- they come with 10 guys towards the referee," [Klinsmann] said. "The referee is confused. He doesn't know even know who to show a yellow card."


So basically...they need to play like dicks? Whiny dicks, at that?

Hockey has a rule where (theoretically) only captains and alternates can talk to the ref. I'm surprised soccer doesn't have anything like that.
   1408. CWS Keith plans to boo your show at the Apollo Posted: May 31, 2012 at 10:29 AM (#4144047)
For those following the mess in Italy, what are the particular allegations against Bonucci?
   1409. puck Posted: May 31, 2012 at 11:05 AM (#4144096)
I had no idea Eric Wynalda was hated so much by US soccer folks, but skimming some articles that seems to be the case. Can't find a succinct version of why, though...


He's aggressively opinionated and arrogant, which doesn't help. I don't know of a succinct article either, don't know if you read this one about his talk at a NSCAA convention, but it gives the idea.

Part of the context are long-simmering feuds among US soccer fandom about pro-rel, European soccer and "eurosnobs" and all that.
   1410. ursus arctos Posted: May 31, 2012 at 11:10 AM (#4144107)
1408, no particular allegations against Bonucci have surfaced yet.

The Cremona prosecutors listed him as someone who could potentially have evidence of activities involving Bari (where he was on loan), and sent that recommendation to the prosecutors in Bari (who are handling that part of the investigation). So far, the Bari prosecutors haven't acted on it, and it may be the case that they never do.

1407, I've been an advocate of the hockey rule for soccer for at least 15 years. There's no good reason why it couldn't be adopted, and it would put an end to a lot of the nonsense immediately.
   1411. DA Baracus is gritty and hits with RISP Posted: May 31, 2012 at 11:13 AM (#4144112)
This Brazil team might be young, but it's obviously quality ...


Which bodes really well for Brazil going forward. Neymar's only 20 and they have other excellent pieces too. Scary.

My point was the US rolled out a first choice lineup against a young B team that is inexperienced (relative to the US side) and still got outclassed. Another reason why I don't share the optimism of others. Brazil had 3 guys over 23, none over 27. The US had 7 players 30 or older.

"We need to get an edge more nastier. Maybe we're a little bit still too naive. Maybe we don't want to hurt people. But that's what we've got to do."


Then I don't want to see Klinsmann complain when Jermaine Jones gets sent off.
   1412. Borussia, Du bist so wunderschön! (Mark Edward) Posted: May 31, 2012 at 12:49 PM (#4144210)
To be fair, I believe Brazil was playing their Olympic team, which would account for the youthful squad.

Anyway, I guess you can count me as one of the "optimistic" US fans, but let me explain my optimism.
1. I like what Klinsmann has done regarding the US' tactics.
2. I generally like the personnel moves he's made, aside from Beckerman.
3. I think he's done well with what he has to work with.
4. I can't speak for the youth teams & I'm not sure how much control Klinsmann has over that aspect.

Of course the big issue is defense, and the US just doesn't really have any world-class defenders right now. Onyewu's erratic & injury-prone. Bocanegra's old. Goodson probably deserves some more playing time, but he's probably mediocre at best. Then you've got guys like George John, Cameron, Ream, Whitbread, Parkhurst, maybe another MLSer I'm forgetting; Ream or Whitbread probably should've been included in this squad but I don't think they would've made much of a difference. Maybe Klinsmann can be a little more creative with his personnel (playing Edu or Spector at CB?) so that might be a legit Klinsmann criticism.

But I do like the way they're playing the game right now, and I think it's a step up from the low-scoring drawfests under Bradley. The US could've played a 5-4-1 last night & lost 1-0 but I don't think that would've been much of an accomplishment.

I think right now the best you can expect out of this team is qualifying for the round of 16 and hoping for a favorable draw from there.
   1413. Textbook Editor Posted: May 31, 2012 at 01:21 PM (#4144241)
I think right now the best you can expect out of this team is qualifying for the round of 16 and hoping for a favorable draw from there.


Had they beaten Ghana in 2010 they would have gotten Uruguay in the quarterfinals. Given their form, I'm not sure the US would have beaten them to get into the semifinals (although Ghana essentially had them beaten had either the Suarez handball shot gone in or the penalty converted)... but I thought then (and it seemed, IIRC, that the conventional wisdom was in agreement) that the draw was perhaps the USA's best shot at making the semifinals in a generation.

It's not likely we'd get another draw where we wouldn't have to play a Top-5 side until the semifinals... I suspect we'll look back on 2010 as a terrific missed opportunity.
   1414. Textbook Editor Posted: May 31, 2012 at 01:31 PM (#4144252)
Thanks for the link in #1409... So is he pro-promotion/relegation or anti?

It would seem he would be pro, but I have no idea. Obviously, I can't see a closed-league system like MLS willingly agree to promotion/relegation, but why couldn't they do an expansion that was predicated on promoting 2 teams up from whatever the powers-that-be designate is the "League 2" of US Soccer, and then just keeping it from there (with 2 teams up/down instead of the 3 used by most leagues in Europe).

To be sure, the crappy teams in MLS would have to really worry, but the idea of scrappy, small-market teams hitting it big... well, isn't that part of the fun of all of the European leagues? And with MLS salaries relatively low, you could institute parachute payments that would allow teams a fighting chance at bouncing back the next year.

Apologies if this has been discussed to death before (I suspect it has).

The fall-spring schedule could be very tough in places with unheated pitches (which would probably be most/all of MLS stadia, right?)... But I suppose I'm in the camp that would favor that as well.
   1415. Crispix Attacks 2: Swag Airlines Posted: May 31, 2012 at 01:42 PM (#4144264)
Fall-spring schedule would be an absolute disaster. Every time Sean Wheelock talks about how MLS should have a fall-spring schedule it sounds to me like he's suffered a head injury and is hallucinating.

A) In the United States people play soccer in the summer, not in the winter
B) In the United States the cold-weather places (plus California) are the places where people like soccer more
C) In the United States there is competition from two/three other major sports in the winter and only one in the summer
   1416. Swedish Chef Posted: May 31, 2012 at 01:45 PM (#4144269)
Denmark has a fall-spring schedule with a four-five month break in the middle, it's exactly as stupid as it sounds like.
   1417. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: May 31, 2012 at 01:46 PM (#4144270)
Hmmm, a friend's wife is Ukrainian and has talked about going to matches before, I'll have to ask her whether she witnessed anything similar to what's in this article:


Journalist Chris Rogers spent one month visiting Polish and Ukrainian soccer hotbeds, mingling with the hardcore far-right fan groups, known as “Ultras,” who are entwined with the game.

The scenes he documented are chilling. Amid the traditional images of organized fan choreography – banners, flares and firecrackers – Rogers captured the families of African players being baited with a chorus of monkey chants, entire terraces of fans, men, women and children all, offering Nazi salutes en masse, and banks of supporters abusing their opponents with the anti-Semitic slur “Death, death to the Jewish whore.”

In Poland, Rogers was granted access to witness Euro stadium stewards’ anti-racism training, learning that “it can be an uphill struggle in a country where ethnic and religious minorities are all but invisible.”

In Kharkiv, Ukraine, he witnessed 2,000 fans show support for their local team by raising their hands in Nazi salute. A Kharkiv police colonel, Volodymyr Kovrygin, interviewed in the wake dismissed the existence of racism and anti-Semitism in Ukrainian football, explaining that the fans were merely “pointing in the direction of their opponents as it were … with their right hands, to attract attention to themselves. It’s not Nazi.”

The naked violence is sickening to watch, as is the pain and powerlessness of the African players interviewed, but the apparent lack of any police response will be just as frightening for thousands of English fans planning to travel to the Euros, an ever increasing number of blacks and Asians among them.

The Ukrainians and Poles have primary responsibility for security at the stadia during the Euros, and the documentary ends with a horrific finale as a cluster of Indian students who made the mistake of daring to sit in the “family section” at Kharviv are thrashed by an organized group of thugs. Kicks and punches rain down as stewards look on without taking action.
   1418. Crispix Attacks 2: Swag Airlines Posted: May 31, 2012 at 01:56 PM (#4144287)
I wonder if ANY of the new MLS team attendance success stories would exist if the league played in November and February. Philadelphia? Portland? Montreal? Toronto? Even Seattle maybe not, sharing the stadium with the Seahawks. What about Denver? What about Kansas City? Chicago? I'm envisioning crowds of less than a thousand.

Probably we would have several more teams in southern places that don't have big competition from other winter sports. Orlando ... San Antonio ... St. Louis? Instead of the Montreal Impact being rebranded as an MLS team it would be the Austin Aztex.
   1419. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: May 31, 2012 at 01:58 PM (#4144288)
Fall-spring schedule would be an absolute disaster. Every time Sean Wheelock talks about how MLS should have a fall-spring schedule it sounds to me like he's suffered a head injury and is hallucinating.

A) In the United States people play soccer in the summer, not in the winter
B) In the United States the cold-weather places (plus California) are the places where people like soccer more
C) In the United States there is competition from two/three other major sports in the winter and only one in the summer


I don't think this is true. Just taking your points;

A) It seems to me that soccer is still very much a fall/early-winter sport from a participation standpoint (August-November) though of course Spring and Summer leagues exist.

B) This is true but I think could be dealt with. Some scheduling adjustments; a small January break, more games played in the South during January/February would alleviate the issue. Plus you would not be angering fans who want to see big names but those big names are at the World Cup/Gold Cup/Euros/etc...

C) I think that's true of the fall but January-March is a bit more of a dead zone of sports. Schedule things right and pick up the slack on nights the local NBA/NHL teams are off and you give the hardcore sports fan an excuse to watch. Right now you're competing with MLB which is tough because that's an every day thing. If I'm a hardcore sports fan who hasn't yet gotten into soccer and I can watch the Bruins Tuesday, Celtics Wednesday and Revs on Thursday that is more likely than me choosing the Revs over the Red Sox in August.
   1420. Swedish Chef Posted: May 31, 2012 at 02:12 PM (#4144304)
The only reason that most of Europe is playing August-May is that the Victorian gentry believed that summers were for cricket. There's little more to it than that, except it turns out pretty well for Mediterranean countries.

Also, the gamblers among us like the fact that there are leagues that are out of sync and keeping the action going during the summer.
   1421. DA Baracus is gritty and hits with RISP Posted: May 31, 2012 at 02:13 PM (#4144307)
Fall-spring schedule would be an absolute disaster. Every time Sean Wheelock talks about how MLS should have a fall-spring schedule it sounds to me like he's suffered a head injury and is hallucinating.


The people who want to go to a fall-spring schedule want it because Europe does that, and they want to be like Europe either consciously or subconciously. Brazil does a spring-fall schedule, works just fine for them. (They also do a winter-spring state leagues.)
   1422. Crispix Attacks 2: Swag Airlines Posted: May 31, 2012 at 02:17 PM (#4144310)
I just can't imagine it. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm picturing the average parents of soccer-playing kids flipping channels on December 18th and seeing the New England Revolution playing on a field that's just been snow-plowed and doing a double take of bafflement, maybe even laughing because it seems so incongruous.

I grew up playing soccer in the schedule you describe - season ends just right around the time snow first falls (in Pennsylvania). I've been watching European soccer for years and still when there's snow in the air, and the players see their breath, I just think "Oh those poor guys, having to play soccer in those conditions". I guess Europeans say "Yes, yes, lads, get stuck in, this is real football weather". We have our own version of football for that weather.

What's the summer sport in, say, France or Germany? (obviously in Britain it's cricket)
   1423. Swedish Chef Posted: May 31, 2012 at 02:23 PM (#4144315)
What's the summer sport in, say, France or Germany?

In France, cycling, mostly the Tour of course.
   1424. zack Posted: May 31, 2012 at 02:26 PM (#4144317)
Rugby union and F1? Wait, Union isn't a summer sport.
   1425. DA Baracus is gritty and hits with RISP Posted: May 31, 2012 at 02:43 PM (#4144335)
To be fair, I believe Brazil was playing their Olympic team, which would account for the youthful squad.


Ah, but fair to whom? The US lost to Brazil's Olympic team. That doesn't give me any consolation.

Anyway, I guess you can count me as one of the "optimistic" US fans, but let me explain my optimism.
1. I like what Klinsmann has done regarding the US' tactics.
2. I generally like the personnel moves he's made, aside from Beckerman.
3. I think he's done well with what he has to work with.
4. I can't speak for the youth teams & I'm not sure how much control Klinsmann has over that aspect.


I disagree on #2, he can't stay consistent with his own views. He wants players who are playing but calls in Morales over Lichaj and keeps calling in and before this week, playing, Agudelo and Williams despite a serious lack of playing time for them professionally. It took him a year to call in Omar Gonzalez, meanwhile Orozco Fiscal got starts. As to #4, he is very in charge of that. That was the entire sticking point to him not getting hired in 2006, he wanted top-down control and US Soccer wasn't willing to give him it. They capitulated to his demands last year in hiring him. Disagree on #1 and #3 because...

Of course the big issue is defense, and the US just doesn't really have any world-class defenders right now. Onyewu's erratic & injury-prone. Bocanegra's old. Goodson probably deserves some more playing time, but he's probably mediocre at best. Then you've got guys like George John, Cameron, Ream, Whitbread, Parkhurst, maybe another MLSer I'm forgetting; Ream or Whitbread probably should've been included in this squad but I don't think they would've made much of a difference. Maybe Klinsmann can be a little more creative with his personnel (playing Edu or Spector at CB?) so that might be a legit Klinsmann criticism.


The defense is the biggest problem, the backline can not get the job done by itself and Klinsmann's preferred tactics have left them out to dry. However I do give him credit for changing tactics from game to game and in-game, this is the time to tinker with tactics with the first choice side, so he should get some leeway on that.

Edu's been tried at CB before, he wasn't any better than what we've got.

But I do like the way they're playing the game right now, and I think it's a step up from the low-scoring drawfests under Bradley. The US could've played a 5-4-1 last night & lost 1-0 but I don't think that would've been much of an accomplishment.


It is strange to me that someone would prefer a 4-1 loss over a 1-0 loss. There's a reason Bradley kept with a 4-2-2-2 that counter attacked: it helped cover up the problems on the back line. They play more attractive soccer under Klinsmann, but the results aren't any better. 8 of Klinsmann's 12 games have been 1-0 games and another has been 1-1.

I think right now the best you can expect out of this team is qualifying for the round of 16 and hoping for a favorable draw from there.


Which is not an improvement over Bradley, the entire reason Klinsmann was brought in.
   1426. Crispix Attacks 2: Swag Airlines Posted: May 31, 2012 at 03:00 PM (#4144354)
It is strange to me that someone would prefer a 4-1 loss over a 1-0 loss.

Oh, we'll get tired of it soon. But for years it seemed like every game, whether it was against Mexico or Grenada or Italy or Bootle FC, either ended 1-1, 2-1 or 1-2, so this is new and exciting.
   1427. Mefisto Posted: May 31, 2012 at 03:05 PM (#4144365)
It seems to me that soccer is still very much a fall/early-winter sport from a participation standpoint (August-November) though of course Spring and Summer leagues exist.


That's certainly true in CA, but of course we don't have weather problems.

JMHO, but I think it makes most sense to play Fall-Spring because of the weather. It's hard to play in the rain and cold, but there are few things worse than playing matches in the late spring or even September when it's 100 degrees.
   1428. Borussia, Du bist so wunderschön! (Mark Edward) Posted: May 31, 2012 at 04:08 PM (#4144467)
I disagree on #2, he can't stay consistent with his own views. He wants players who are playing but calls in Morales over Lichaj and keeps calling in and before this week, playing, Agudelo and Williams despite a serious lack of playing time for them professionally. It took him a year to call in Omar Gonzalez, meanwhile Orozco Fiscal got starts. As to #4, he is very in charge of that. That was the entire sticking point to him not getting hired in 2006, he wanted top-down control and US Soccer wasn't willing to give him it. They capitulated to his demands last year in hiring him. Disagree on #1 and #3 because...


Each of the 11 starters last night (more or less) start for their club teams. Danny Williams, up until the last few games of the season, was frequently starting for Hoffenheim. I'm almost positive that he got more starts than Lichaj did at Leeds/Aston Villa.

You may have a point regarding Gonzalez/Orozco Fiscal and their relative talent levels, but I haven't seen any of Orozco Fiscal's club games (and I don't remember much from his time in Philly). Maybe Klinsmann saw something at San Luis that turned him onto MOF. Yes, I know I'm appealing to authority, but so it goes. Either way, it doesn't look like MOF is on Klinsmann's radar anymore, so it's a moot point.

The defense is the biggest problem, the backline can not get the job done by itself and Klinsmann's preferred tactics have left them out to dry.


I'm OK with this, because 90% of the teams the US will face won't have the attacking prowess of Brazil.

And quality attacking teams were able to cut up Bradley's formations as well- see the 2011 Gold Cup final.

It is strange to me that someone would prefer a 4-1 loss over a 1-0 loss.


The US controlled possession for most of the 2nd half. They hit woodwork once, it took a goalline clearance from a defender to prevent another goal, and it took some ridiculous saves from Rafael to keep Bradley & Boyd from scoring.

Which is not an improvement over Bradley, the entire reason Klinsmann was brought in.


I think with Klinsmann the US team is in a better position to beat teams like Slovenia, Algeria, & Ghana, as opposed a tie, win in the absolute last second, and loss.
   1429. CWS Keith plans to boo your show at the Apollo Posted: May 31, 2012 at 05:00 PM (#4144552)
I really don't see the shame in shipping four to Brazil's B side. Maybe it's parsing words to say it's not really a B squad, but Silva is easily a starter in Brazil's best 11, while you could make strong cases for Marcelo, Damiao, Pato, Neymar and Hulk. Sandro is likely their number two defensive mid (behind the superior Lucas Leiva, provided he comes back healthy), and even the goalie from last night will probably have a decent shout at starting in 2014 (I'm not all that crazy about Julio Cesar).

And maybe I'm alone in this, but I think playing better, more enjoyable soccer is a good thing in and of itself. Hypothetically, if the US could Stoke their way through games and be a better team, I don't think I'd make that trade off. Now obviously, there are going to be certain games where you're going to have to sit back, be structured and hit on the break, but I'm okay with JK not going that route in a meaningless June friendly, particularly when the upcoming WCQs are going to be games the US should boss.
   1430. Shooty is in the Trust Tree Posted: May 31, 2012 at 05:03 PM (#4144560)
I get what DA is saying, but I'm really not concerned about the result as I'm optimistic that the team is starting to develop a personality and an attacking style. We're not going to be so freaking boring anymore. Also, this talk about that Brazil team being weak is overstated. The front 3 are all probably going to get transferred this summer for a combined 80 million pounds, or so. Thiago Silva, Marcelo and Sandro are among the best in the world at their respective positions. This wasn't just the team they're taking to the Olympics but also the team, with a couple of exceptions because if injury, they expect to be taking to the 2014 Cup. For me, the big disappointment was the central defense was really poor, especially Onyewu. The handball, the scuffed clearance that led to the corner that led to the goal, and then playing Pato onside. He just looked slow--both physically and mentally--all game. And there aren't a lot of alternatives so I have no idea what Klinsmann will do about it. Our army guys produce German fullbacks better than centerbacks for some reason...
   1431. Flynn Posted: May 31, 2012 at 05:14 PM (#4144579)

It's not likely we'd get another draw where we wouldn't have to play a Top-5 side until the semifinals... I suspect we'll look back on 2010 as a terrific missed opportunity.


We would have had to play a Top 5 side in the quarters - Uruguay. There is no way the US back four would not have been skinned to pieces by Forlan, Suarez and Cavani.
   1432. DA Baracus is gritty and hits with RISP Posted: May 31, 2012 at 05:37 PM (#4144609)
Mark Edward:

Danny Williams, up until the last few games of the season, was frequently starting for Hoffenheim. I'm almost positive that he got more starts than Lichaj did at Leeds/Aston Villa.


I was thinking of Danny Williams but giving him Alfredo Morales' season. Mea culpa.

And quality attacking teams were able to cut up Bradley's formations as well- see the 2011 Gold Cup final.


I'll see that game and raise you 2009 vs Spain. Bradley wasn't perfect but he got a raw deal. It's not his fault Mexico is better than us right now. I'm still annoyed they re-upped him and then a year later took a 180. They should have parted ways with him after the World Cup, history is not kind to coaches who go to consecutive World Cups with the same nation.

I'm OK with this, because 90% of the teams the US will face won't have the attacking prowess of Brazil.

The US controlled possession for most of the 2nd half. They hit woodwork once, it took a goalline clearance from a defender to prevent another goal, and it took some ridiculous saves from Rafael to keep Bradley & Boyd from scoring.


Fair enough on the first part. Brazil hit a post too though. That's life.

CWS Keith:

Maybe it's parsing words to say it's not really a B squad, but Silva is easily a starter in Brazil's best 11, while you could make strong cases for Marcelo, Damiao, Pato, Neymar and Hulk.


Calling it a B squad is probably harsh on my part. It's not the first choice team is the picture I was trying to paint.

And maybe I'm alone in this, but I think playing better, more enjoyable soccer is a good thing in and of itself.


Playing better and playing more enjoyable aren't the same thing though. We would all love for the US to do both of course.

Shooty:

We're not going to be so freaking boring anymore.


It appears that I am alone on this, and that is fine, but I'll take boring and winning over attractive and losing every day of the week. Just win baby.

Also, this talk about that Brazil team being weak is overstated.


Who said they are weak? All I was saying is that it was 4-1 against not the best Brazil has to offer. I even said Brazil's depth is scary.
   1433. puck Posted: May 31, 2012 at 05:37 PM (#4144611)
There is no way the US back four would not have been skinned to pieces by Forlan, Suarez and Cavani.


Or Mexico. But at least last night's performance looked like a team that would also score on Mexico.
   1434. puck Posted: May 31, 2012 at 05:43 PM (#4144619)
It would seem he would be pro, but I have no idea. Obviously, I can't see a closed-league system like MLS willingly agree to promotion/relegation, but why couldn't they do an expansion that was predicated on promoting 2 teams up from whatever the powers-that-be designate is the "League 2" of US Soccer, and then just keeping it from there (with 2 teams up/down instead of the 3 used by most leagues in Europe).


It has been discussed ad nauseum and the discussion quickly becomes ridiculous in most of the usual places, but that doesn't seem likely here.

MLS seems very unlikely to ever do it. One, their big criteria for a franchise has been to identify deep-pocketed owners that will work with the league, which seems pretty important given that the league historically has exercised shenangigans for the good of the league. I don't really know how a single entity league works, but that would seem to complicate things (though maybe not). I suppose another big reason is just that US leagues don't do it, while you could stand to gain from a new market that has huge attendance, individual owners ("investors") don't want the corresponding risk of relegation, and everyone figures if there's a big market, MLS can expand into it like they've done with Toronto, Philly, Seattle, Portland, Vancouver and Montreal.
   1435. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: May 31, 2012 at 05:46 PM (#4144621)
It appears that I am alone on this, and that is fine, but I'll take boring and winning over attractive and losing every day of the week. Just win baby.
I agree with this, but it doesn't seem to me that they were winning a lot with a boring style either.
   1436. puck Posted: May 31, 2012 at 06:02 PM (#4144638)
The fall-spring schedule could be very tough in places with unheated pitches (which would probably be most/all of MLS stadia, right?)... But I suppose I'm in the camp that would favor that as well.


This also gets discussed a lot. The best argument I've heard for it is that aligning the transfer windows will help MLS get out of contract players. Though plenty of teams bring in the big money guys in July. There's also the argument about aligning with the FIFA schedule better.

I think most cold-weather cities have heated pitches--MLS stadia are actually pretty nice. Colorado's park has a heated pitch, for example.

I think you'd lose a huge amount of attendance in certain places if they did it and it wouldn't be worth the advantages gained. Colorado would probably lose its team because attendance would drop so low for the cold weather months (you can't take Dec-Jan-Feb off). Maybe from a league standpoint that wouldn't matter because you could move the team to another market at this point, but you'd piss off everyone here, including the municipality that paid for half the stadium.

MLS tv ratings are so low it's hard to say they'd be hurt by going up against Europe for the entire season (how low can ratings go), but I don't think a synchronized schedule would help ratings, either.
   1437. DA Baracus is gritty and hits with RISP Posted: May 31, 2012 at 06:06 PM (#4144644)
I agree with this, but it doesn't seem to me that they were winning a lot with a boring style either.


Small sample size for Jurgen, but:

Klinsmann: 54.55% winning percentage
Bradley: 53.75% winning percentage

Meaningless but interesting, first 11 games:

Bradley: 10-0-1
Klinsmann: 6-4-1

Bradley would go on to lose his next 5 matches. I'm confident Klinsmann won't so that comparison will look better in the fall.
   1438. Flynn Posted: May 31, 2012 at 06:10 PM (#4144647)
Promotion/relegation is dumb. If you were starting the Premier League today, there's no way you would have it.

It's great sporting-wise, but it's the main reason why most smaller clubs in Europe are financial basketcases, and it leads to wage inflation as small teams pay star money to average players to stave off relegation.
   1439. Swedish Chef Posted: May 31, 2012 at 06:37 PM (#4144668)
Promotion/relegation is dumb. If you were starting the Premier League today, there's no way you would have it.

It's not dumb, or the result of dedication to fair play for lesser clubs, it was a solution to a problem, it's basically AL and NL stacked vertically instead of horizontally. The owners who founded the Football League in the 19th century was every bit as greedy and selfish as any group of American sports owners today. But clubs left out of the league founded a rival league, the Football Alliance. The second division resulted from the merger of the two leagues, with mostly Alliance clubs in the lower tier.
   1440. Shooty is in the Trust Tree Posted: May 31, 2012 at 06:53 PM (#4144683)
Chelsea bought Hulk for 38 million. This is the year they start to balance the books!
   1441. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: May 31, 2012 at 09:48 PM (#4144811)
Rogers captured the families of African players being baited with a chorus of monkey chants, entire terraces of fans, men, women and children all, offering Nazi salutes en masse, and banks of supporters abusing their opponents with the anti-Semitic slur “Death, death to the Jewish whore."


I'm always sickeningly amused at eastern Europeans being gigantic racists. Really, racism from anyone is total ########, but to come from a bunch of people the Nazis were perfectly happy to kill for being inferior themselves is the icing on the ludicrous cake. I hope Balotelli goes Charles Bronson on their asses. #### the Ultras.
   1442. Borussia, Du bist so wunderschön! (Mark Edward) Posted: May 31, 2012 at 11:02 PM (#4144859)
Wow, if ya'll thought the Americans' defensive clearing attempts were bad yesterday try watching Bosnia & Herzegovina's "attempts" against Mexico during the 93rd minute tonight. Comical.
   1443. Juan V Posted: June 01, 2012 at 08:32 AM (#4144967)
Something I read on Twitter: Hulk, Hazard and Marin combined cost about as much as Downing, Henderson and Carroll.
   1444. Obi One Kenobi Nil Posted: June 01, 2012 at 08:52 AM (#4144973)
The big problem with the Eastern European countries is the same problem that parts of the UK had until recently (and to some extent still do) is that in all liklihood the only non-white person you'd see would be the footballers for the local team.

When I grew up in Co. Durham there was precisely three kids in my school who weren't white and Northern - and that would have been considered "ethnically diverse". Christ, if I went out I used to get abuse for being white and southern.

What I'm saying is that there are pockets of Europe which are incredibly insular, I would say more so than the US.
   1445. Shooty is in the Trust Tree Posted: June 01, 2012 at 09:03 AM (#4144974)
Something I read on Twitter: Hulk, Hazard and Marin combined cost about as much as Downing, Henderson and Carroll.

Those are 3 full England internationals, sir! (Is Jordan Henderson really the best England can do? Or is it just because of what shirt he wears?)

I'm sorry, but I find the Chelsea spending kind of gross. It strikes me more as glorified conspicuous consumption than investment. It makes me forlorn and drift into thought about kids in Malawi eating mice on a stick while I get tho choose from a hundred different restaurants tonight. The whole world is kind of gross, I guess.
   1446. Richard Posted: June 01, 2012 at 09:06 AM (#4144977)
When I grew up in Co. Durham there was precisely three kids in my school who weren't white and Northern - and that would have been considered "ethnically diverse". Christ, if I went out I used to get abuse for being white and southern.

Similar to me about 100 miles further South. There were no non-white children in my primary school and 2 (out of 1200) in my secondary school.

My local team had no black players for about 5 years in the 1980's, and visiting black players were the butt of racial abuse from the terraces during this period. That disappeared as soon as black players were signed again, and never returned even during odd seasons with an all white first team, I'm happy to say.
   1447. jmurph Posted: June 01, 2012 at 09:31 AM (#4144992)
I'm sorry, but I find the Chelsea spending kind of gross. It strikes me more as glorified conspicuous consumption than investment.


Without diving too much into the question of the overall amount of money being spent on leisure products, in which case I might end up agreeing with you, these signings seem like great moves to me. They have an obvious need to get younger in the attack, and I think they've accomplished that pretty fiercely. I'm thinking Chelsea is (sadly) not going to follow Liverpool's recent path.
   1448. Shooty is in the Trust Tree Posted: June 01, 2012 at 09:45 AM (#4145000)
these signings seem like great moves to me.

I'm not debating that. They should be a much more fun team to watch next year. It's just there are often moments or situations when I'm reminded of the biblical line about it being time to put away childish things and I feel guilt or whatever it is, some kind of depressive feeling, about all the time and energy I've spent watching other men play games and the ridiculousness of it. It never sticks, though, happily...
   1449. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: June 01, 2012 at 10:13 AM (#4145016)
Chelsea bought Hulk for 38 million. This is the year they start to balance the books!
Hulk Smash Puny Fair Play Regulations!

PS: June thread coming sooner or later
   1450. DA Baracus is gritty and hits with RISP Posted: June 01, 2012 at 10:43 AM (#4145032)
Swiss Ramble, living up to his name, had a 15 tweet explanation of Chelsea and FFP.
   1451. Shooty is in the Trust Tree Posted: June 01, 2012 at 10:45 AM (#4145034)
Looks like Ledley King is done as a player. Inevitable, but sad.
   1452. puck Posted: June 01, 2012 at 11:02 AM (#4145042)
Those Chelsea acquisitions are nuts. Reload!

This weekend and the following week (until Friday) is pretty dead for soccer, right? Pretty much just friendlies? June 8 starts the Euro's and is the USMNT's first WCQ, correct? I notice Mexico is playing Brazil on Sunday, it's on an OTA Univision channel. Might be interesting for the comparison.
   1453. Dale Sams Posted: June 01, 2012 at 11:19 AM (#4145056)
I'd like to see a ref stand his ground against that 'mob of 10 guys in his face', then flop on the ground when one brushes up against him.
   1454. Arnett Mead (Arjun) Posted: June 01, 2012 at 01:28 PM (#4145190)
This weekend and the following week (until Friday) is pretty dead for soccer, right?

Which is good, because I have finals until Wednesday :p
   1455. jmurph Posted: June 01, 2012 at 01:43 PM (#4145215)
This weekend and the following week (until Friday) is pretty dead for soccer, right?


England-Beligum tomorrow should be reasonably interesting, I hope.
   1456. DA Baracus is gritty and hits with RISP Posted: June 01, 2012 at 02:02 PM (#4145258)
This weekend and the following week (until Friday) is pretty dead for soccer, right?


USA vs Canada on Sunday. Try to contain your excitement.
   1457. Shooty is in the Trust Tree Posted: June 01, 2012 at 02:26 PM (#4145295)
You've got South American qualifying this weekend, which may be the best tournament in the world. CAF has qualifiers, too, but none of the games look interesting if they're even on tv. The second leg of the Serie B playoffs are on. And a very little domestic soccer, too. The Asian WC qualifiers look like snoozers, too.
   1458. puck Posted: June 01, 2012 at 02:34 PM (#4145312)
#1457: Is any of that stuff on tv? Well, the CONMEBOL qualfiers, anyway?

I'm not expecting much out of US-Canada w/the qualifier two days later. Actually, I'm hoping for not much out of US-Canada--I assume the main guys will be resting.
   1459. DA Baracus is gritty and hits with RISP Posted: June 01, 2012 at 03:12 PM (#4145357)
Is any of that stuff on tv? Well, the CONMEBOL qualfiers, anyway?


Mexico vs Brazil friendly is on Univision on Sunday. That appears to be it.
   1460. Shooty is in the Trust Tree Posted: June 01, 2012 at 03:14 PM (#4145359)
Serie B will definitely be streamed by the usual illegal streaming outfits. Not sure about CONMEBOL. Seems like they should be somewhere but I haven't amde any effort yet to figure it out. One advantage of the Qataris buying everything soccer-related is that maybe they can create a one-stop shopping destination for soccer so you wouldn't have to rely on illegal streams and spend half a work day figuring out which outlet is carrying what.
   1461. Swedish Chef Posted: June 01, 2012 at 03:19 PM (#4145364)
One advantage of the Qataris buying everything soccer-related

Oh no, they have competition, the Chinese have bought the right to host the Spanish Super Cup in Beijing from next year. Cost a cool 40 million euros.
   1462. DA Baracus is gritty and hits with RISP Posted: June 01, 2012 at 04:52 PM (#4145457)
Michael Ballack reportedly to sign with... Montreal.
   1463. CWS Keith plans to boo your show at the Apollo Posted: June 01, 2012 at 05:11 PM (#4145477)
Heh -- the rumor earlier was Del Piero going to Montreal. Maybe it'll change over the summer window, but I'm a bit disappointed that teams aren't utilizing the new young DP rules. I want to say Portland inked one, but the player got hurt almost immediately and was ruled out for the season. Can't think of any others...
   1464. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: June 02, 2012 at 12:02 AM (#4146003)
   1465. FancyPantsHandle glistening with foreign substance Posted: June 02, 2012 at 07:11 AM (#4146195)
Lavezzi to PSG for €26m.

May I be the first to say: Boooooooooooooooooo!
   1466. Swedish Chef Posted: June 02, 2012 at 07:29 AM (#4146197)
It has been pretty well telegraphed already, but Paul Lambert is officially the new Villa manager now.

Better than could be hoped. I wouldn't mind if he brought Grant Holt with him.
   1467. FancyPantsHandle glistening with foreign substance Posted: June 02, 2012 at 07:33 AM (#4146198)
Paul Lambert is officially the new Villa manager now.

And may I also be the first to say to this: Boooooooooooooooo!

Villa. Where my heroes go to die.
   1468. puck Posted: June 02, 2012 at 11:59 AM (#4146364)
Heh -- the rumor earlier was Del Piero going to Montreal. Maybe it'll change over the summer window, but I'm a bit disappointed that teams aren't utilizing the new young DP rules.


Fabian Castillo might be counted as one; I'm guessing it depends on how the team or league wanted to work the accounting for his transfer fee.

The rule's kind of tough to use. You'd have to have scouted out a 20 yr or younger player who you're confident will cut it, while at the same time not demand a big transfer fee (which MLS teams are loathe to pay).

And then there's the accounting. If you manage your roster well, $350,000 (regular DP) is not a huge cap hit. Whereas $180,000 (young DP hit) is still a lot to spend on a guy who can't contribute, so you need the young player to be able to do something right away. Then the club is making up the difference that the league doesn't pay...it's "only" $170,000, but that's probably still a decent chunk of change for most MLS clubs.
   1469. puck Posted: June 02, 2012 at 12:11 PM (#4146370)
One advantage of the Qataris buying everything soccer-related is that maybe they can create a one-stop shopping destination for soccer so you wouldn't have to rely on illegal streams and spend half a work day figuring out which outlet is carrying what.


At least eventually...I selfishly worry about the limbo phase as new networks are created and then they go through that dance of trying to get carriers to add them, and add them to the more accessible tiers.

It probably doesn't matter much to people here, but Univision spun off Univision Deportes in the spring and took the rights to most of the interesting Mexican teams with them (Santos, Monterrey, Pachuca, Toluca, etc.), and Dish was the only carrier. About half the playoff games were on the network as well.
   1470. DA Baracus is gritty and hits with RISP Posted: June 02, 2012 at 12:46 PM (#4146387)
The rule's kind of tough to use. You'd have to have scouted out a 20 yr or younger player who you're confident will cut it, while at the same time not demand a big transfer fee (which MLS teams are loathe to pay).


Yup. The two 20 or so year old DPs got to MLS via loans, not coincidentally they're both Colombian, there's been a tremendous influx of Colombians to MLS recently.
   1471. Grunthos Posted: June 02, 2012 at 01:15 PM (#4146399)
Happy to see Lambert arrive. I'm still not convinced that he is all that and a bag of chips, but I can certainly see the promise. Between him and Solsjkaer, it seems clear in this hiring cycle that Randy Lerner has learned a bit from his past mistakes.

I wouldn't mind if he brought Grant Holt with him.

Holt would cost more than he is worth at this point. Villa may not be poverty stricken, but the finances still demand efficient spending. Better for Lambert to unearth another Holt from lesser leagues.
   1472. puck Posted: June 02, 2012 at 02:22 PM (#4146431)
there's been a tremendous influx of Colombians to MLS recently.


Did you see the MLS salary figures? I didn't check on other teams, but naturally was curious about newcomers to the Rapids (my local team). Not that their Colombian players have been stars, but they have a reasonable starting central mid and starting leftback for $68K and $68K, and a backup/possible starting d-mid for $44K. They also picked up a 22-yr old a-mid from 2nd div Argentina for $50K.

I can see why MLS teams have turned their attention in that direction.
   1473. puck Posted: June 02, 2012 at 02:27 PM (#4146435)
to go OT in an OT thread: how do rugby league and union fans take rugby sevens? Is it seen as an acceptable form of the game or some sort of decadence? I like that it will be tried in the Olympics...too bad they didn't introduce it for London, though. That seems like it would have been perfect.
   1474. frannyzoo Posted: June 02, 2012 at 02:45 PM (#4146440)
A drab start, but Diego Forlan with some lovely footwork (and woeful Venezuelan defending) makes it 1-0 in one of the few "real" games offered today. That Uruguayan side is formidable.
   1475. DA Baracus is gritty and hits with RISP Posted: June 02, 2012 at 02:55 PM (#4146442)
Did you see the MLS salary figures?


I have, and I'm not quite sure what the uproar was when they got released, the MLS players union has done it for years.

Colombians are generally good and cheap, and when you get a few players from any country, integration is easier for everyone. We're seeing MLS start to become a league where non-Americans want to play, it's great. Say what you want about Colombia but you have to walk before you can run.
   1476. Flynn Posted: June 02, 2012 at 05:30 PM (#4146502)
Puck - I don't much care for it myself, but you're talking to a front rower here. It's definitely seen as rugby lite and the atmosphere st sevens tournaments is generally party-oriented. Players who excel at sevens generally don't play as well at fifteens - a legend like Waisale Serevi (who is still playing fifteens for Old Puget Sound Beach in Seattle at 42) never quite made it in fifteens despite being the best sevens player ever.

It's fun to play and watch, and the format and style of the game leads to upsets that you basically never see in fifteens. We've gotten to some semifinals in sevens tournaments and the Eagles will never get to a semifinal in fifteens rugby in my lifetime.

Now most of the rugby community supported sevens at the Olympics, but we're seeing a few of the pitfalls - NOCs are only choosing to fund sevens and sometimes only one sex. For example, the Dutch NOC has decided they might win a medal in women's sevens, so the women are pros and train six days a week while the men get virtually nothing, and neither fifteens program Is funded.
   1477. puck Posted: June 02, 2012 at 05:36 PM (#4146504)
I have, and I'm not quite sure what the uproar was when they got released, the MLS players union has done it for years.

There was an uproar? You're right, they've done it for years, and Americans who follow other US pro leagues would hardly be surprised.
   1478. puck Posted: June 02, 2012 at 05:38 PM (#4146505)
Flynn--thanks, that's interesting. I don't know much of any of the versions, but from what I've seen, Sevens seems like quite a different game with all the extra space for players to run.
   1479. Flynn Posted: June 02, 2012 at 06:02 PM (#4146514)
Yeah, there is relatively little overlap between the two and many sevens stars are average, at best, rugby players. I am trying to think of a comparison - indoor soccer, maybe?
   1480. DA Baracus is gritty and hits with RISP Posted: June 02, 2012 at 06:05 PM (#4146515)
The soccer writers I follow on Twitter spent the better part of a day talking about it and came across fairly naive about it (to me). On the upside, it helped draw attention to the salary gap between MLS and other leagues.
   1481. Juan V Posted: June 02, 2012 at 07:32 PM (#4146536)
Uruguay just can't beat us.
   1482. Juan V Posted: June 03, 2012 at 04:32 AM (#4146689)
Rondon's goal

It may not be a big deal for you Anglos, but I really like having a tall striker who can get in between the centrebacks and score with headers. Venezuela hasn't had many of those.
   1483. FancyPantsHandle glistening with foreign substance Posted: June 03, 2012 at 06:43 AM (#4146693)
In dead threads, nobody can hear you scream...

The less dead thread.
   1484. Juan V Posted: June 03, 2012 at 09:13 AM (#4146705)
You do realize that you helped revive this thread, do you?
   1485. Crispix Attacks 2: Swag Airlines Posted: June 03, 2012 at 09:29 AM (#4146713)
Every time I see one of these Rugby Sevens matches on the NBC Sports channel it seems that a certain "Faosiliva" is trampling and outrunning everyone like the Samoan version of Walter Payton. So the ACTUAL Samoan rugby team is all people better than he is?
   1486. FancyPantsHandle glistening with foreign substance Posted: June 03, 2012 at 09:40 AM (#4146722)
You do realize that you helped revive this thread, do you?

It's okay! No need to panic! I'm a necromancer.
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