Re: 188,

Don't forget big clubs in some countries who become small clubs in Europe. It's a distressing circumstance for those clubs and their fans, which is only magnified if they were once a big club in Europe.

Those circumstances are basically the raison d'etre of everything Ajax has done, right or wrong, in the last 15 years. Celtic, the Portuguese clubs and the major Eastern European clubs like Red Star and Steaua also suffer from it, though not as acutely for various reasons.

There isn't any single reliable source for that data, which is one of the problems with the system.

The most reliable general data that is available to the public is that in the "Deloitte Money League" reports prepared by the accounting firm, but those focus only on the Top 20 clubs in Europe and are restricted to revenue, rather than expense. You can download the most recent example here.

Swiss Ramble's analysis of club finances is absolutely invaluable, but he can only work with public data, and you often need to wait for him to look at a club you are interested in.

Good summary of the current state of the Rangers mess.

Good summary of the current state of the Rangers mess.

Dunno. I loathe Rangers as much as the next guy, but that piece seemed pretty hacktastic to me.

Really? Are you familiar with Thomson's work in general?

What happens if Rangers 2.0 get dropped in the SPL? Does Scottish football descend closer to, say, the level of the Irish top flight or is it, despite all the acrimony, business as usual? It seems incredible to me that a newco Rangers will be allowed straight into the SPL, but times seem desperate. I still think the only longterm hope for big-time Scottish football is some kind of Atlantic League. The pressures television puts on these leagues is too big to ignore as college football here has found out. The only way clubs like Celtic or Rangers or Ajax are going to have any leverage is if they acheive some kind of size. It's interesting that the same squeeze the mega clubs are putting on the middle-sized clubs within a league is similar to the squeeze the big leagues in Europe are putting on the smaller leagues. Television gives, and television takes away, I guess.

I don't have historical data, but ESPN does an annual Top 100 money list for teams across all sports. All the big soccer clubs are on it. The 2012 list is here, and you can probably Google up previous years' lists for a short bit of history.

Thanks Matt and ursus. That reminded me what I was looking for, it was data on the Primeira Liga. Most of the sources I found only had the big four.

I remembered the Deloitte league having very detailed data, but then was disappointed that it was only revenue. Which is ironic, since I would kill for revenue data for the North American leagues, for which you can find payrolls.

Interstingly enough, The Daily Record has just tweeted that Miller has withdrawn from the process.

zack, Swiss Ramble has looked at Porto.

Really? Are you familiar with Thomson's work in general?

I'm not so maybe he's usually pretty good but I thought there was a fair amount of Dan Shaughnessy style hackery at work there.

Admittedly I checked out on taking him seriously about three paragraphs in;

The charming Ba’athist thugs in Baghdad used to do this in the 90s, I recall. Bosnian Serb commanders likewise. Congolese child-soldier commanders do it. Duff & Phelps did themselves no favours.

Fairly or not when a writer compares overly sensitive owners with murderous dictators I tend to stop taking the complaints seriously. I'll take your word for it that he's normally good and that the piece does adequately describe the situation but that's some horrible writing right there.

He's a war correspondent by trade. He's reported from each of those places, so I'll cut him some slack on that front.

Letter exposes just how dysfunctional the Venky's regime at Blackburn is.

• That the executive team at Blackburn receive authority to run the club and trust from the owners in India. Hunt's letter states: "With our fiduciary responsibilities as directors, if the club goes under, the directors (including Vineeth, Mahesh and Gandhi Babu) are all potentially personally liable for that failing and the courts could take our houses from us. My family do not deserve this."

Holy Toledo!

For those interested in all of the ins and outs of this debacle, I highly recommend the OTF thread, which features contributions from a number of very knowledgeable people.

He's a war correspondent by trade. He's reported from each of those places, so I'll cut him some slack on that front.

He played the "I'm not saying he's a mass murderer, I'm just saying" card. That means he realized writing it was stupid, but decided to plunge ahead anyway. That's just inexcusable.

The whole opening bit about the press conference was weird anyway. It sounds like they basically told him all they are going to be discussing is sports, not the business side, so he probably shouldn't bother showing up, cause it would just be wasting their time.
Yet he somehow wants to play it off as some sort of personal victory that they relented and gave him credentials, which doesn't seem like it was to hard to do. And then he wants to slam them for not talking about the business aspects as well...
He's just making himself the centre of the story, and using it as a stick to beat rangers. That's not good objective journalism, it's just plain hackery.

Edit: Also, just basically.

Interstingly enough, The Daily Record has just tweeted that Miller has withdrawn from the process.

You reckon the tow truck tycoon was in a little over his head? Nah...

He's being reported as saying that he's determined that Duff & Phelps' projections were not in line with reality. Seems that he's not the rube that many Scots took him for.

FPH, whatever you may think of Thomson's style, he's been more accurate on this story than anyone else in the Scots media.

FPH, whatever you may think of Thomson's style, he's been more accurate on this story than anyone else in the Scots media.

A bar so low, an ant couldn't limbo under it.

I still think the only longterm hope for big-time Scottish football is some kind of Atlantic League.

Maybe they can be a normal ####### league instead of a substitute battleground.

Duff & Phelps' projections were not in line with reality.

There's a shocker.

#190: It'll be interesting to see if the MLS, as it grows and can attract better players, will become more popular internationally since it offers a model of parity other leagues don't.

Let's play...Name! That! League!

(No counting).

Spain, England, Germany, Scotland, France, Italy.

That's my guess without knowing WTF the bars are supposed to represent.

That's a nifty graphic. Here goes...

Purple = Spain
Green = England
Light Blue = France
Dark Blue = Scotland
Red = ?
Orange = Germany

Maybe they can be a normal ####### league instead of a substitute battleground.

That's the thing, though, will they be able to continue to attract support the way they're going. It's one thing to say what they should do, but the clubs have to put butts in the seats if they aren't going to have tv money and right now they can't even put butts in the seats.

Let's play...Name! That! League!

I'm guessing the league that looks like La Liga is really the MLS because of MLS's best efforts to make juggernauts of New York and LA?

edit: And payroll is my guess at what the bars mean, though it could be revenue, too.

"By late Monday night, it became clear to me that preliminary information, discussions and analysis were, unfortunately, more optimistic than reality. Having no intention of negatively affecting the potential outcome of the club's future and after hearing the message from Rangers supporters and fans loud and clear ("Yank go home!"), I notified the administrators today that I have withdrawn my bid for Rangers and will not be moving forward."

Bill Miller's statement. Good one Gers fans, because that local Scottish ownership has done you so proud...

And payroll is my guess at what the bars mean, though it could be revenue, too.

I thought it was points in the current tables.

I thought it was points in the current tables.

My guess is based completely on his quoting my assertion that MLS had parity. I just assumed MLS parity and I could be completely wrong. BBTF always knows!

MLS has got to be in it since it was in response to a post about MLS.

My guess is

Purple = Spain
Green = England
Light Blue = America
Dark Blue = Scotland
Red = Italy
Orange = Germany

So Toronto FC totally sucks, huh?

(I just looked at the MLS standings for the first time this year.)

Worst start ever for a MLS team. Part of it is health, they've never been able to field their first choice team. When they beat the Galaxy in Champions League it was a head turner at the time, but now it's clear that beating the Galaxy is not a problem this season.

I thought it was points in the current tables.

GD maybe. No way it's points.

GD maybe. No way it's points.

If it were goal difference, a lot of the bars would be in the negative.

EDIT: The dark blue only has like 10 or 12 bars, so what league has that few teams? Scotland, Portugal maybe? I don't really know.

My first guess was that the Purple one was Spain, but if you look at the horizontal markers, there are fewer of them on that graph. If the horizontal markers are scaled the same on all the graphs, then my guess is that the Purple is MLS.

Yeah, that was silly of me in retrospect.

I think it's standings relative to wages. The third red bar is lower than the four that follow it.

If it were goal difference, a lot of the bars would be in the negative.

Or, you know, the middle bar is zero. There are no units on them. I do however not for one second believe that there is a league where the first team has more than triple the points of the third.

I think it's standings relative to wages. The third red bar is lower than the four that follow it.

Or, you know, GD.

Or, you know, the middle bar is zero. There are no units on them. I do however not for one second believe that there is a league where the first team has more than triple the points of the third.

Nope, you are wrong. If some of the bars were negative, they would still all start at the zero point and then go down. These do not. Either all the values are positive or all are negative and the graphs are upside down.

Aren't the bars # of titles? So Spain on top left, Scotland in dark blue, after that I suck...

Also, UA, could you narrow down the pages of interest in that thread?

EDIT: I guess it could only be # of titles if the lowest Scottish teams had 2, then 4, then 5, up to the 30s and 40s for the Old Firm? That sound right?

I bet it's first-team wages for the following domestic leagues:

Purple - La Liga
Green - Premier League
Light blue - Bundesliga
Dark blue - SPL
Red - MLS
Orange - Serie A

The light blue and dark blue charts seem like obvious links to Germany and Scotland given that they have 18 and 12 bars, respectively. Same for the red one with 19. Though I'm confused by the ordering of the red bars, too, since the others are all in descending order. Neither wages nor revenue is perfectly correlated with table finish. My guess is that the ordering of the MLS chart has to do with the financial quirks of the league relative to the others.

Same for the red one with 19.

Good catch. The page is blocked on my work PC so I had to look it up on my blackberry, which is terrible. Plus I can't count.

Aren't the bars # of titles? So Spain on top left, Scotland in dark blue, after that I suck...

There would be a lot more teams level at the end (with 0) if that was the case. And the red graph wouldn't look like it is.

The light blue and dark blue charts seem like obvious links to Germany and Scotland given that they have 18 and 12 bars, respectively. Same for the red one with 19. Though I'm confused by the ordering of the red bars, too, since the others are all in descending order.

Hey! He said no counting.

Hey! He said no counting.

Whoops -- I missed that. My bad.

Hey! He said no counting.

That only encourages me to count!

Pep, the Rangers-specific discussion dominates the last ten pages or so of the OTF thread.

The graph looks like revenue/turnover to me.

Nope, you are wrong. If some of the bars were negative, they would still all start at the zero point and then go down. These do not. Either all the values are positive or all are negative and the graphs are upside down.

Well, usually, I just can't come up with much else though. Points doesn't work unless the scale is really wonky. Number of titles doesn't seem like it would work. Goals scored maybe...

Again, it has to be standings and/or wages because it was in response to a comment about MLS parity:

It'll be interesting to see if the MLS, as it grows and can attract better players, will become more popular internationally since it offers a model of parity other leagues don't.

If it's goals scored or differential then we've wasted our time since it doesn't really address the question.

Carragher starts again for Liverpool. And there was talk recently of loaning out Coates next season because they can't find enough time for him. Heh. It's inexplicable.

244, why can't it be revenue? Though there is some correlation between revenue and wages in most leagues.

244, why can't it be revenue? Though there is some correlation between revenue and wages in most leagues.

Absolutely, I totally over looked that.

Whoops, sorry guys. I was trying to make it deliberately obtuse so it would be fun, but I forgot to mention even remotely what it was about.

Padgett nailed it (by cheating!1!11), it's first-team payroll for those leagues.

MLS is in weird order (which I didn't notice) because the data was sorted by average pay, and the chart is total payroll. I guess some MLS teams must not have a full roster.

The point was mostly despite the ridiculously low, centralized salary structure of MLS, it is basically just as bad as the other leagues in terms of payroll disparity.

That and ever more reason to hate BM, since without them Germany would be a communist paradise.

Carragher starts again for Liverpool. And there was talk recently of loaning out Coates next season because they can't find enough time for him. Heh. It's inexplicable.

I guess they really want to keep the pressure on Everton.

Malouda is a wuss. Get up and play wussy!

So I'm not sure what, if anything, the MLS version of this chart means. Sure, LA are the cupholders this year, but they don't look to repeat, and NY has been middle-pack at best for awhile. As far as competitive parity, the MLS is in pretty good shape. Two clubs paying two DPs $10M each makes that chart look superfically like La Liga or SPL, but it's apples and oranges on the field, where we already know that, say, Barca and Real will finish 10-15 points clear of everyone else for the next five years.

Damn -- I'm missing out on Terry apparently having quite a howler of a half.

The problem with a comparison is that MLS is paying as much for image as it is for performance. You'd see a similar distribution in the Gulf or China.

Two clubs paying two DPs $10M each

They don't even pay that. LA's 3 DPs make about $13 total (Beckham 6.5, Keane 3.4, Donovan makes about 3), NY's 2 DPs make 5.6M each.

Terry just fell/slipped on a "move" by the greatest of all tricksters - Jordan Henderson! After that it was a 1-on-1 with the keeper. I think everyone in the world (including Henderson and his mom) thought he would miss but it was a nice finish. Truly embarrassing for England's best CD

I think it says that the MLS teams who do spend money do not do so in a way that is particularly beneficial to their performance. If you are going to spend 4x the average team, it'd make more sense to upgrade all over the place than blow it all on a big name.

Edit: or what ursus said.

If you are going to spend 4x the average team, it'd make more sense to upgrade all over the place than blow it all on a big name.

Which you can't do in MLS. You can only spend that extra money on three players, and you have to pay extra for the 3rd DP to boot.

I think at this point Kenny should just tell the Liverpool players to aim for the crossbar and posts when they shoot. Then when they are inevitably off by a few inches, at least some of those efforts will be on target.

EDIT: And I thought that BEFORE Stewpot hit the post with his penalty attempt. Crikey.

The only way clubs like Celtic or Rangers or Ajax are going to have any leverage is if they acheive some kind of size. It's interesting that the same squeeze the mega clubs are putting on the middle-sized clubs within a league is similar to the squeeze the big leagues in Europe are putting on the smaller leagues. Television gives, and television takes away, I guess.

I don't think the TV money would really be there, and attendances would probably fall as not everybody would be into it.

I think at this point Kenny should just tell the Liverpool players to aim for the crossbar and posts when they shoot. Then when they are inevitably off by a few inches, at least some of those efforts will be on target.

EDIT: And I thought that BEFORE Stewpot hit the post with his penalty attempt. Crikey.

Downing's two bring Liverpool's tally to 33. Pretty sure that's just in the league, too. Also -- one-out-of-six in league penalties this year.

My source had Henry at $5.6M, Marquez at $4.6M, then Beckham $6.5M, Donovan $3M. This was May 1, 2011, data, published before Keane came over, hence the two clubs/two players comment. There's only a couple other players that make more than $1M; the majority of MLS players made less than $75K, and many not even half that.

I don't think the TV money would really be there, and attendances would probably fall as not everybody would be into it.

Relatively, there's no tv money or attendance now. It's very possible there's no good solution and the SPL will edge closer and closer to the status if the Irish top flight. I think it's a shame, but times change. It just makes it that much easier for Partick Thistle to crack the SPL! In fact, if my gf decides she wants to go to Glasgow for her 40th, I'll get to go to a game! I wonder if I'll be able to get a ticket? I will have to use all my cunning...

Ha! Stewart Downing. Also, is Ramires Chelsea's best player now? He's got my vote.

In other news: Puyol is out of the Euros and Cardiff City--the Bluebirds--might switch to a red kit.

Also, Liverpool have now missed 5 of 6 penalties this year.

Fair Play is awarded already? I thought that went through May. It is just not going to change before then, or what?

And it must mean something that the Scandahoovians nearly always take these, and it means something else when they get washed out early...

My source had Henry at $5.6M, Marquez at $4.6M, then Beckham $6.5M, Donovan $3M. This was May 1, 2011, data, published before Keane came over, hence the two clubs/two players comment. There's only a couple other players that make more than $1M; the majority of MLS players made less than $75K, and many not even half that.

I thought Marquez and Henry made the same, should have looked it up, it is 4.6. Donovan made 2.3M last year. MLS contracts are available on the MLSPA site. Only Julian DeGuzman, Juan Pablo Angel, Torsten Frings and Danny Koevermans also made 6 figures.

Also, is Ramires Chelsea's best player now? He's got my vote.

At this stage of the season, I would say yes, which is a testament to his just fantastic conditioning. Mata, like Silva at Man City, was the clear best player for the 1st half to 2/3 of the season, but the EPL season has taken its toll.

Chelsea is getting thumped, but at this point in the season, asking for 2 above average performance in a row is almost to much. With EPL, CL and FA Cup, this team isn't deep enough to compete every match.

And it must mean something that the Scandahoovians nearly always take these, and it means something else when they get washed out early...

Means it is too cold for fouls up there. You just want to play the game and not risk anything that would involve extra time and having to be outside longer than absolutely necessary.

And it must mean something that the Scandahoovians nearly always take these, and it means something else when they get washed out early...

Seems to me that they play too nice is sufficient explanation for both of those.

Relatively, there's no tv money or attendance now. It's very possible there's no good solution and the SPL will edge closer and closer to the status if the Irish top flight. I think it's a shame, but times change. It just makes it that much easier for Partick Thistle to crack the SPL! In fact, if my gf decides she wants to go to Glasgow for her 40th, I'll get to go to a game! I wonder if I'll be able to get a ticket? I will have to use all my cunning...

Ha! Stewart Downing. Also, is Ramires Chelsea's best player now? He's got my vote.

Oh, you're talking about the SPL.

I think for Ajax there would be even less appeal. Sure, the lack of European glory sucks (and Ajax as a club has never gotten over the Bosman ruling breaking apart their next great team) but Ajax are financially alright, play in front of 50,000 people every week who generate a great atmosphere, and still have the academy providing wins over Barcelona, Bayern and Man U. Their senior side plays lovely football and are champions, and even an Ajax side with lowered expectations can consider the last 16 of the CL realistic. Their alumni are long and distinguished, and the Dutch public have a tendency to divide their national teams into whatever Dutch club they played for rather than who they play for now, so van der Vaart or Sneijder are Ajacdien rather than Spurs or Interisti, respectively.

On the other hand, Scottish football is a joke internationally, it's a joke at home, and it's dire, miserable and crap. And a lot of that is their own damn fault. Celtic seem to barely use their academy at all, and prefer to buy foreign dreck instead. Now they can afford to, but I have a feeling people would feel better about where Scottish football is if it was a league of bouncing young Scots playing the passing, attacking game Scotland invented rather than the #### on a stick they are currently fed.

If the SPL ever wants to keep its head above water, it would do well to start kicking its legs. But it doesn't.

I'm with Flynn on this one, and would also note that the Eredivisie is taking digital media and alternative income streams more seriously than any other league in Europe. It's also easier to sell that Ajax ethos abroad than it is to try to explain away the sectarian underbelly of the Old Firm rivalry. It's certainly the case that that nonsense appeals to a certain type of person, but it isn't a growing demographic.

I've said this before, but I honestly believe that it is difficult for North Americans to appreciate just how seriously Europeans take domestic competitions, even those in "smaller" leagues. It's by no means clear that any kind of "SuperLeague" would actually draw well over the course of an entire season.

Eredivisie Live is great. I spend hours on their website every week watching their highlights shows. They also have a legit legal streaming option for people overseas, which at five quid a month is a steal. The quality is not the best and they don't archive, but it's there.

I was in love with Ajax as a kid. My aunt's lived in Holland since 1980 and has no kids, so she dotes on me. She's always sent me loads of soccer stuff, so I knew who Cruyff, van Basten, Rijkaard, Gullit and Bergkamp were before I even knew who Alexi Lalas was. I still have an Ajax is art pennant (only Ajax would say that) hanging over my bed in my mom's house back in SF. I acquired an affection for Arsenal (perhaps because of their similar shirts?) before 1995, but Bergkamp, my favorite player, coming to Arsenal sealed for the deal for me.

I only have a passing memory of how good those mid-90s sides were at the time, but I remember their downfall pretty well and how traumatic it was. The Expos are the obvious comparison, but it was more like a Brooklyn Dodgers scenario. The Bosman ruling changed football overnight, and this new paradigm where players would simply skip off to the top bidder echoed the new paradigm where teams can and would skip town even if they had support more than the tragic Expos. It wasn't like now where players generally have the grace to sign contracts before they're sold so teams can cash in - Davids, the de Boer twins, Seedorf and Kluivert all left on free transfers, and Ajax was so traumatized that they simultaneously undersold several other stars like Edwin van der Sar. They were in a tailspin.

Right around that time I sort of drifted away from Ajax (though I always rooted for the Oranje) and a couple years ago I would have parroted the idea of the Atlantic League. But I spent a nice little trip to Holland around the 2010 final and started watching the Eredivisie again. And it's great. There's bags of goals, each team tries to build up with young players, and the atmospheres at virtually every ground are fantastic - from the cauldron of the ArenA, or de Kuip (Feyenoord), or de Grolsch Veste (FC Twente) to the almost pleasant day out that is Excelsior (and their 3,000 seat ground!) and all of the clubs with 15-20,000 seat stadiums where their fans make more noise than many EPL clubs. And all of those teams clearly have history with Ajax and with each other, and there's really a great deal of excitement about the league. Yeah it's not the best league around, but I get the impression in Holland people are very happy with it, and there's very little movement to merge with the Belgians (which gets mooted and taken more seriously than an Atlantic League) or with Scotland and Portugal and whatnot. I genuinely think people in Amsterdam would miss watching Ajax play de Graafschap or Sparta Rotterdam so they could play Sporting or Rangers.

It's all about money. Not the money they make doing a Super League, but the money it'll cost.

Ticket prices would probably be high since you're going to see quality teams vs quality teams every game. But TV revenue would be the major source of income for any Super League (any major league in any sport really), and to broadcast one you're going to have all kinds of lawsuits and breaches of contracts. The broadcasters that have the rights to La Liga, EPL, etc. are going to want those contracts to be dramatically altered, because they paid to broadcast the big teams and now they're not there. And the leagues aren't going to make that concession. So they will sue those teams or the league or both for breach of contract. And that doesn't even take consideration just how a team will exit it's league, and how much it'll cost them to do so.

Also, will they all qualify for Champions League? Because if they don't then it's not financially worth it for teams, who rely on domestic and continental revenues. If only some teams qualify then you'll see that league become top heavy as well after a few years of some teams never qualifying.

Teams considering entering a Super League will have to ask themselves is it worth it to go through with this? The upfront costs will be significant and potential significant long term losses should give any team pause.

Just to tie this back to the SPL -

There's bags of goals, each team tries to build up with young players, and the atmospheres at virtually every ground are fantastic

- is the only way to keep your sanity when you're not watching 'the best in the world'.

The SPL is not a goal fest like Holland (which averages something like 3.2 goals a game), Rangers and Celtic definitely do not prioritize (much less fetishize) their academies like Dutch clubs, and the atmospheres suck at most games. Even the vaunted Old Firm don't pack their ground like Ajax does for games that aren't against each other.

I know when I watch Ajax play I am not watching a top 10 European side. But half the team's from Amsterdam and the other half came through the academy or were bought very young. I know I'm going to see some goals served up in the world's most popular style of play. And if they're at home they make more racket than any club in the EPL outside of Liverpool does in a month. And hence, I enjoy myself. I think if you ask any person who is a fan of a team not of the top rank if they genuinely enjoy themselves watching their team's games and they say yes, they will give those three reasons as to why.

Not advocating, but I've wondered if UEFA wouldn't try to delay the arrival of a superleague by supporting mergers of top divisions, except for mergers that would involve two of the five big leagues. Thus, Scotland-England, Portugal-Spain, etc. It would give Porto and Ajax bigger ponds to play, while avoiding either a superleague or an unwieldy Atlantic League. Obviously, the big leagues would want to stay as they are, but once one moved to increase its footprint, the others would probably stampede to get bigger, too.

Obviously, the big leagues would want to stay as they are, but once one moved to increase its footprint, the others would probably stampede to get bigger, too.

My God. If anything could ever make NCAA conference realignment look downright temperate . . .

I can remember hearing about Rangers and Celtic joining the EPL for years. I'm sure they would go for it--especially Rangers since, you know, they could use the money--but I can't see anyway that happens unless the TV people just flat out demand. There's no way the teams support it.

Whoops, sorry guys. I was trying to make it deliberately obtuse so it would be fun, but I forgot to mention even remotely what it was about.

So you produced the charts yourself? It is pretty cool. Where was the data from? (I didn't realize the wage data were so available.)

Within England itself, very few fans want Rangers and Celtic in the English league. No one has any interest in their 300 year old religious war baggage.

Plus we have something called the pyramid, which requires new teams to start seven or eight divisions below the EPL.

Allowing a debt free Rangers "Newco" to participate in the SPL next year will be shameful, but that seems to be the way the vote will go, despite widespread fan outrage.

Thus, Scotland-England, Portugal-Spain, etc.

The teams that aren't Real and Barca are pissed about the money in La Liga. There's no way that Portugese teams will want to join as long as that is an issue, and it will be for some time.

Within England itself, very few fans want Rangers and Celtic in the English league. No one has any interest in their 300 year old religious war baggage.

Agree completely. I come from a family that's half-English Protestant and half-Irish Catholic. I follow sports to escape that sort of thing...

And on another issue, I don't see Man City's success as "boring" as it was described earlier in this thread. Given that only a team who has oodles of cash can win the EPL, it may as well be a different team with oodles of cash.

Plus City (like Chelsea before them) have not exactly been winning trophies for fun. The FA Cup was their first trophy since 1976, they have been relegated from the top flight 4 times in the last 30 years, they have spent a season in League One fairly recently, and throughout all this their supporters have turned out in large numbers. Their fans may not "deserve" success any more than anyone else but if they make it next week I am sure that it will be sweetest for people who watched them at places like Macclesfield and Stockport. I'll get bored with City's success when they win a few more things, thanks, or when they are competing with someone who is an actual underdog.

Oh hey, another massive Italian match fixing scandal.

Heh, DA. I keep skimming those reports for mentions of Torino. So far I haven't seen any but if I get time today, I may do a google search. As widespread as this scandal is, I'd be surprised if they weren't caught up in it.

Also, briefly back to the Rangers problems, etc. Has there been any movement in Scotland to go to a supporters-owned structure? Maybe that's a potential avenue of escape from the league's malaise?

Which Red Bull is your favorite?

I am, of course, partial to Ghana. It does annoy me that Red Bull have stolen my idea of an international conglomeration of Shooty FC's.

Shooty FCs would be way cooler. Certainly you would have better kits.

I keep skimming those reports for mentions of Torino.

At this point, just give it time. 22 clubs is an entire league's worth of teams, damn.

In other news: Cardiff considering (or may have already considered and are going ahead with it) changing their colors in exchange for a reportedly 100M euros investment.

In other news: Cardiff considering (or may have already considered and are going ahead with it) changing their colors in exchange for a reportedly 100M euros investment.

This smells fishy. Very fishy. That's a lot of money to invest in a Championship side. Not that Cardiff isn't worthy, but I'd be skeptical if I were a supporter.

Because it's never to early for transfer news...

Inter and Arsenal are duking it out for M'Villa, though some of the sketchier sites are saying M'Vila to Arsenal is nearly a done deal. Speaking of sketchy websites, Goal.Com is reporting Vertonghen his heading to Spurs which means I'm 99% sure he's not. Clint Dempsey is being rumored to go everywhere so he'll be going nowhere. And Juventus want to sign everyone.

EDIT: “Tottenham are absolutely my favourite," the defender told De Telegraaf. "Tottenham is a fantastic football club that has the tradition I want. They buy young, eager, offensive-minded players.“[But] the Ajax board are asking for a very big amount for a player whose contract is running out in year. I trust that both Tottenham and Ajax will put some water in the wine and they will soon reach an agreement.“I hope that this awareness is there, because a transfer lingering for weeks like Maarten Stekelenburg's [to Roma] seems very harsh.“He joined at the end of Roma's preparation [for the new season]. I want to be able to blend in with the other players at Spurs from the start [of pre-season training].”

This is supposedly what Vertonghen said to fuel the rumors.

Which Red Bull is your favorite?

No Red Bull India?

Yeah, the calcioscommesse stuff is crummy. Could possibly render some of these end-of-season promotion/relegation battles meaningless. And, for the Juventus-hating contingent here (i.e. everyone but me? C'mon, lurkers, I know you're out there. I can't possibly be the only one here who enjoys watching that team...), there's a tie-in with Antonio Conte, who managed Siena last year. Siena apparently built-up a comfortable cushion in Serie B's automatic promotion race. The allegations around Siena are that they 'eased up' (ahem) on some games later in the year. Although Conte isn't alleged to have been in on any of this, he may have heard rumblings or whispers at some point. If he's judged to have heard things and not reported them, he could possibly be sanctioned. (Please, ursus or others, correct any of the above -- I'm just piecing together stuff I've heard on various podcasts or read on blogs.)

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Agree with 282 about not finding City boring. I find the lines about teams "buying" championships/wins pretty silly, as they usually come from fans of teams who themselves are working with a relatively decent kitty. If this thread was composed of Dag and Red and Lewes FC fans, the complaints from upper-mid-table EPL teams about money would be rather comical.

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Flynn -- are you stateside? I thought you were not, but your talk of the Expos has me wondering. The reason I ask is I'm wondering how you catch so many Eredivisie games. Are there any non-ESPN3 legal streams out there? I just gave a quick look at that aforementioned Eredivisie Live page, but I'm unsure if someone in the US can make purchases there.

This smells fishy. Very fishy. That's a lot of money to invest in a Championship side. Not that Cardiff isn't worthy, but I'd be skeptical if I were a supporter.

Agreed. I wonder if the club had to give their credit card info to the "investors." I hope they don't order new seats until the check clears.

Which Red Bull is your favorite?

Vodka.

Agreed. I wonder if the club had to give their credit card info to the "investors." I hope they don't order new seats until the check clears.

The supporters need to watch if this "investment" is in the form of a loan or as equity.

The supporters need to watch if this "investment" is in the form of a loan or as equity.

Good point. I don't see anything that says what exactly it is. I'm guessing loan.

Good point. I don't see anything that says what exactly it is. I'm guessing loan.

If it's a loan, they should respectfully decline. If the owners bail, they will never be able to pay it back and they will be just another Portsmouth except in ugly red kits...

So you produced the charts yourself? It is pretty cool. Where was the data from? (I didn't realize the wage data were so available.)

Yes, and Mattbert's link in #200.

There's bags of goals, each team tries to build up with young players, and the atmospheres at virtually every ground are fantastic

Why don't the Dutch play hockey? They love skating and they love football, you smash the two together and you have hockey.

Speaking of, did the Elfstedentocht ever happen this year?

I am, of course, partial to Ghana. It does annoy me that Red Bull have stolen my idea of an international conglomeration of Shooty FC's.

But they do the tournament? The Shooty Cup was my favorite part of the plan.

But they do the tournament? The Shooty Cup was my favorite part of the plan.

I don't know. If they do, and they hold it in Harrison, I may have to hold my nose and go check it out. Ghana Red Bull! I bleed for Ghana Red Bull!

Guardian article about the Dynamo's new digs

Flip.