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I think he wore down. The LB for Spurs has to do a lot of running because of all the freedom Bale has and all the space he for the LB to overlap. Danny Rose might have played a bit more in the first half to alleviate some of that wear and tear but he did not. I'm hoping if Spurs sign Vertonghen he'll get some time at LB to give BAE the odd game off.
Scholes has just announced that he's signed for another year, btw.
Absolutely. He would be one of the first names on my Coach's Choice XI for scrappy overachievers, surprise performers, or what have you. But he has no business on a Best XI.
Since you asked (okay, you didn't)...
Premier League Coach's Choice XI
GK: Ali Al-Habsi
DF: Pablo Zabaleta, James Collins, Ashley Williams
MF: Leon Osman, Scott Parker, Yohan Cabaye, Stephane Sessegnon
FW: Gylfi Sigurdsson, Demba Ba, Grant Holt
"We looked into it. We still think your complaint is amazingly dumb."
I guess I was expecting more of the latter type of signing -- the "promising [young] foreign players" type of deals. I could be blanking, but the only two I can think of are Joao Carlos Teixeira and Coates. Perhaps Carroll and Henderson qualify if you remove the "foreign" qualifier, but even at their age, they were expected to step in and contribute, so they're a bit different than the first two I listed. In any case, it seems he targeted these types of players more with Spurs than with Liverpool.
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Tough for me to see Skrtel as one of the best two CBs in the EPL. Then again, the EPL seems devoid of world-class (top five or so in the world at that position) CBs. Who's the best -- Vidic? Vermaelen? Are they top five in the world? I have very little confidence it my ability to judge defenders, outside of Thiago Silva, who I think is brilliant.
And a healthy Vidic is a top 5 player... that's across all positions, not just CB.
Coke to the guy with the good looking slacks.
We're a long way away from the days of Maldini and Baresi, or Thuram and Blanc.
True, but FB (especially left) has always* been scarcer than CB. I think that's because if they were elite defenders, they'd play in the middle. And if they were elite attacking wingers, they'd play further up the pitch. So basically at FB, you are stuck with players who aren't good enough defenders to be CB, and aren't good enough attackers to play LM/RM/AML/AMR. I wouldn't be shocked if it came out that most of the elite FB's historically started out there, because they were blocked by a veteran at another position when they came up.
*at least it seems that way to me
Vermaelen isn't even the best CB on his own team. He's an exciting player, no doubt. That's great when he's taking the ball through midfield and blasting rockets at goal from 30 yards, but I think his manager and teammates could do with a little less excitement on the defensive end of things.
We're a long way away from the days of Maldini and Baresi, or Thuram and Blanc.
Heck, sometimes it feels like we're a long way away from the days of Terry/Carvalho, Campbell/King, and Adams/Keown.
None of those three teams' current pairings is anywhere as good as those mentioned.
I think Kaboul had a great year. Lescott and somehow Evans had decent, but after Kompany there is no world class CB.
It was a very uncharacteristic mistake in terms of his whole season, but it was a doozy.
Whenever I think of good wide players, I come up with lot of Spurs and Man United players (how amazing was it that Nani sort of disappeared and instead there was Valencia). I guess speedy flank play is still a big part of English football.
Anyone from Swansea? Coming into the season I only really knew of Sinclair, but he hardly seemed like their best player. A lot of people like Leon Britton, but it's hard get past Mata, Modric, Toure, etc. Everton's another team that did fairly well but seemed to do so on the strength of great organization. I saw that Mattbert put Osman on his team which is interesting. Maybe he goes into a group with Zabaleta as guys who should be on a "Best Gameday 18" or something.
Nasri is a disagreeable fellow. This just reinforces the truism that when it's not about the money, it's about the money.
On the other hand, and this is where I always sympathize with Wenger, they just spotted the league an entire month, basically, and still finished 3rd. So I can understand why he might think they should roll the dice with this team again, add a little depth, and make a run next year.
I would keep him. He's so good that you have to take the chance, no? It's the kind of thing a big club like Arsenal should be able to do. Van Persie will have some say it it, too, though. I can't imagine he'll want to risk playing out the contract when his time to cash in is now and if I were him I'd want my money locked in before the Euros.
How do aging patterns work in soccer? Goalies obviously last forever but it seems that strikers and central defenders seem to age pretty well too. In simplest terms, the positions where "craft" and "cunning" can make up for physical restrictions can age while players who need the physical gifts, particularly speed; midfielders, wingers, outside fullbacks, age the worst.
What if you took team payroll as a proxy for team quality, and you looked at what age players "peaked" - that is, at what age are players most likely to play the most minutes for the highest payroll clubs? It seems like you could get a reasonable idea of the aging curve from that.
(Or is there no database even for team payroll that would be usable? Would you just have to create estimate team rankings for each season?)
Assuming health, which is obviously assuming a lot on that team, Arsenal probably needs another consistent goal scorer (if Wenger can convince him that every league game is an international, Podolski fits the bill), another attacking midfielder who can actually stay on the field, 1-2 starting caliber players on the back line, and then some random depth that is better than Chamakh. Does that sound about right? I can certainly see them assembling a team that starts the season on par with United and Chelsea and Tottenham, though probably a bit behind City.
That should be the floor of what they can do, I'd think. I don't expect Arsenal to stop being one of the league's top teams any time soon. I do expect Chelsea and Liverpool to get better, though, so I don't see them as guaranteed a CL place anymore. Those top 4 places are going to be tougher and tougher to get, especially with Newcastle back on track.
What if you took team payroll as a proxy for team quality, and you looked at what age players "peaked" - that is, at what age are players most likely to play the most minutes for the highest payroll clubs? It seems like you could get a reasonable idea of the aging curve from that.
Soccernomics, IIRC, cited studies that soccer players peak fairly young, like 24 or 25. I haven't seen anything firsthand, though.
Sinclair is really damn good. It will be interesting to see if any of the bigger clubs come in for him and, if they do, whether Swansea are able to retain him. He had a terrific year, with Dyer and Routledge having their moments on the opposite flank. I liked Swansea's ability to mix up their play between the possession-heavy game with three midfielders and the more traditional English attack with two jet-heeled wingers. Sinclair was able to perform well in both contexts. I think he'll have a nice career.
Osman is probably the most perpetually underrated player in England. It's amazing to me that he's never been called up for international duty. I've always been impressed with him, particularly over the last two or three years. Unfortunately, he's also always been pigeonholed as a poor man's Joe Cole, and that's killed his stock in a country where reputation counts for a lot more than performance. It probably won't happen, but if Hodgson has any sense Osman should be one of the first names in his squad for the Euros.
That's not surprising, given that soccer demands a higher level of fitness than almost any other team sport. I would imagine goalies, target men, centrebacks and the like have a broader range, though.
They sure as hell made a big deal of the Arsenal 'Invincibles'. Might be a country to country thing though. It's never happened in Germany. Dortmund's current run of 28 is actually a record (previously held by Leverkusen).
If Capello couldn't swim against the tide of the English media, I'm not sure how Hodgson will. I expect the usual cast of characters to get called up.
Yay! Can we play some more 4-4-2 please! That's clearly not an outdated formation that every manager with more than 14 braincells has figured out by now...
Even if they're committed to the standard 4-4-2, they could still improve by bringing in the best guys, i.e. no Rio or Gerrard in the starting 11. I don't think Adam Johnson is a world-beater, necessarily, but he's obviously the most creative left winger they could bring in (certainly much better than playing Downing, or playing someone out of position).
I think they should bring Johnson and Lennon. It's nice to have that pace off the bench at a minimum. Of course, I probably rate Johnson and Lennon more than I should--I think I have an American fascination with speed.
Johnson is also laser accurate when crossing, so if you're going to play the long ball into the middle, he's good at that, too. I think his flaws are obvious- he sometimes gets into SWP mode and tries to go 1 on 5. But still, he can create.
Ashley Young
In Italy it's happened thrice in 35 years and one of those teams didn't even win the league, so less of a big deal.
Hodgson couldn't care less whether the media like him, even Capello can't say that. Interestingly the media has sort of come around on him lately.
Also, as the resident Gooner, I would be shocked if Wenger let van Persie leave willingly. He knows as well as anybody else that RVP was worth an ungodly amount of points last year - probably 20 or so.
From one the Nasri articles:
One thing in his favor, Arsenal is paying a lot of guys to be unhelpful. They have a pretty big payroll, right? It's nuts that they have such little effective depth.
Their 2012-13 seems to rest too heavily on the health of some oft-injured players in Van Persie and Sagna. They seemed to really struggle when the fullbacks got hurt, esp. in that the wide players were also largely ineffective.
Can Gervinho do better? He needs to. What happened to Arshavin this year? Walcott seemed a little off, but that could have also been an issue with being the only speed threat. Rosicky had a nice rebound and was actually good to see on the pitch during their late run...can he keep that up. I've seen some folks praise Ramsey, but he still seems off. Was he just never that good, or is that essentially the setback from a broken leg.
I wonder if it would be easier to come up with another d-mid and move Song forward more often...he seems like the most creative passer in their midfield.
DF: Walker, Jones, Cahill, Lescott, Jagielka, Cole, Baines
MF: Parker, Milner, Young, Lennon, Johnson, Osman, Carrick, Lampard
FW: Rooney, Defoe, Welbeck, Sturridge, Walcott
* Assuming he can be coaxed out of "retirement" (i.e. pouting).
I think Hodgson could do some damage with that crew.
Eh, England's problem right now isn't tactics, it's personnel. I don't think they're that good of a team. Yes, better tactics might get more out of what they've got, but A) the entire team plays in the 4-4-2 heavy EPL, so it's a natural formation for them and they don't have time to experiment before Euros and B) it wouldn't make that much of a difference anyway, they're not going to win. They'll probably make it out of group stage but that's about it.
Spoiled by bb-ref.com, I never know where to find soccer info quickly...did the other two undefeated teams have anywhere near as many draws as Juventus? 23-15-0 seems like quite an improbable record given how easily a freak mistake/goal can happen.
This is why I think it's fascinating. Like I said, I wouldn't let him go either but if he won't sign an extension you'd have to sell him, no?
That's basically the team I'd go with for England. Maybe swap out Jagielka for Smalling.
I think one of these spots has to go to Holt or Carroll if not two spots. They need some size in there. It seems to me that Rooney is the given but Defoe, Welbeck and Sturridge are a bit redundant, take two of the three and add Carroll (or Holt) to just change the look a bit.
For all the grief he gets (and deserves) I think Carroll can be a real impact player. It seems like he is a bit of a Drogba-type taking games off that "don't mean anything" (in his mind) but when the stakes are high he plays with a bit more energy. To have a player like that to come off the bench when you are struggling to score can have a lot of impact. He himself did it in the FA Cup final and I think Dzeko's impact this weekend against QPR is a nice example too.
Why not Crouchy, then?
With so many ties I was hoping Juventus would go undefeated but not win the Scudetto just for the quirkiness of it.
Smalling is hurt and won't be able to make it. Even so, I would probably go with at least one more "old hand" at the back to complement the younger Cahill and Jones.
How many of the top teams actually still play 4-4-2 anymore though? City don't. Chelsea don't. Arsenal don't. Liverpool played some mixed with some 4-2-3-1. With how deep Rooney plays, United don't play a natural 4-4-2...
If they aren't even going to try their best, they should just stay home.
Sure, that's exactly right, but they've compounded this for years by not choosing the best players. Emile freaking Heskey played a role in the last World Cup, let's not forget.
I think Carroll can be more effective. Crouch seems better with a true strike partner than on his own and if Rooney is dropping deep the striker is going to be a bit more isolated.
My theory on Crouch is that because he is so tall he is good at reaching the ball in the air but he is too frail to ram it home. His value comes in being able to nod the ball on to a strike partner for the finish. That's a serious oversimplification (Crouch is a very good player) but I think relative to Carroll it is relevant.
Keep in mind Rooney is out the first two games. That's another headache for Hodgson to deal with and makes it more likely he goes with a 4-4-2.
Let me clarify. Hodgson's coached a lot of 4-4-2 and they've all played a lot of 4-4-2, so with no real chance to experiment in friendlies, that will probably be their starting point. I'm agreeing with you!
Didn't say they aren't going to try their best. Just that they're not going to win Euro because they're not good enough. They can make some noise, Rooney alone can steal a game, but the only reason we're talking about them at length is because they're England, not because they're a great team.
Twice. Preston did it in the first season - the original "invincibles", who also won the cup without conceding a goal.
Spoiled by bb-ref.com, I never know where to find soccer info quickly...did the other two undefeated teams have anywhere near as many draws as Juventus? 23-15-0 seems like quite an improbable record given how easily a freak mistake/goal can happen.
Milan won 22 and drew 12 in a 34 game season in 1992, and Perugia (who as flynn says did not win the league) won 11 and drew 19 in finishing 2nd in a 30 game season in 1979. That was an odd team, and very much of its time and place: only 34 goals scored in 30 games, and only 16 conceded.
That's exactly my point. Until they start selecting the best players (and the players overall get better, which they may not anytime soon) the tactics they chose are a secondary issue. Take whatever roster Hodgson names, give yourself a couple of roster substitutions then put whatever starting XI you want in whatever formation you want. It won't be appreciably better than what's on the field. You can only do so much with the hand your dealt, and England's hand is good, but it isn't great.
Sweden is the only country to have had a team scoring less than 1 goal a game win the league. AIK in 1998 scored 25 goals in 26 games and was the team that scored the least in the entire league, they still ended up on top by a sliver.
Walker--Cahill--Lescott--Cole
Parker--Carrick
Sturridge--Osman--Young
Welbeck
That team suits both Hodgson's style and the available personnel, as well as being much more hip than 4-4-2. And although everyone is writing off England's chances this summer, let's not forget that we're only eight years removed from ####### Greece winning it all. If Hodgson can excise the big egos and get this group somewhat well-drilled and working hard for each other, then you never know in tournament play.
Michael Cox says so.
Walker is the better pure attacking fullback, and with Jones and Milner very capable of playing right back if needed, Richards becomes redundant. If the squad was bigger than 23, I'd have him in there. He's a very good player. However, I do think it's instructive that Mancini often sat him down in favor of Zabaleta for big games.
I'm actually surprised to have my instincts about him verified. I thought I was out on a limb there, but the only poor game he had was when Dalglish played him out of position at RB and he had to defend a rampaging Bale. Other than that, he was class all the way in the games I saw. Agreed that he and Agger are very good together--they have an argument as the best partnership in the league (until Vidic comes back, at least).
Nope, not buying it. Look at Argentina at the last WC. They had a great hand, buckets of talent, including the consensus best player in the world. And they muffed it, because they made weird squad selections, and chose lousy tactics.
And on the other side, Chelsea in this years CL*, Porto under Mourinho, Greece in 04... there are countless examples of teams beating better competition, by choosing the better strategy. The best hand doesn't always win. In fact in a KO tournament, it usually doesn't.
*Even if they don't win the final, getting there was a massive over-achievement
Thanks. I certainly wouldn't pitch a fit if someone wanted to take Richards over Jones or maybe Jagielka.
Similarly, I'm not totally sold on Adam Johnson either. Scott Sinclair or even the Ox would be decent choices instead. My guess is a lot of people would say take Gareth Barry over any of those guys, but I think he's horribly exposed at international level. Hodgson needs guys who can cover some serious ground in the middle for his style of play to work. Barry is a steady performer, but he is not the most mobile.
Luis Suarez needs to have some sort of special award. He's almost always doing something very good or very infuriating, but exciting either way.
He'll have to battle Balotelli for it.
Man, I forgot about Arteta. Not that I'd put him on a Best XI, but Arsenal does look a lot better with him and Wilshere available.
While those two battle it out, Joey Barton will nick the trophy.
I assume you mean for the first couple games while Rooney is suspended? I can't imagine England would want to sit their single best player(also possibly their most versatile).
I don't see how this is an argument to what I said. Argentina under achieving has what to do with discussing England's talent and coaching?
Winning 1-0 in the quarterfinal, semi-final and final (all on headers!) with clinical bus parking. Sure, it's not impossible that England wins Euro. I just don't see them going very far. Apparently my opinion is rare.
Your argument was that talent almost always trumps tactics. The gazillion-and-one and one counterexamples are on point to that.
(edited to make sense)
No it's not rare. I think most people will have them going out in the quarters, depending on who they draw. They have very few players that would start for Germany, Spain, or Holland, and I'd probably take rejuvenated French/Italian sides over them, too.
Goalkeepers: Hugo Lloris (Olympique Lyon), Steve Mandanda (Olympique Marseille), Cedric Carrasso (Girondins Bordeaux)
Defenders: Gael Clichy (Manchester City), Patrice Evra (Manchester United), Laurent Koscielny (Arsenal), Philippe Mexes (AC Milan), Adil Rami (Valencia), Mathieu Debuchy (Lille), Anthony Reveillere (Olympique Lyon), Mapou Yanga Mbiwa (Montpellier)
Midfielders: Yohan Cabaye (Newcastle United), Florent Malouda (Chelsea), Samir Nasri (Manchester City), Alou Diarra (Olympique Marseille), Yann Mvila (Stade Rennes), Yoann Gourcuff (Olympique Lyon), Marvin Martin (Sochaux), Blaise Matuidi (Paris St Germain)
Forwards: Hatem Ben Arfa (Newcastle United), Karim Benzema (Real Madrid), Franck Ribery (Bayern Munich), Olivier Giroud (Montpellier), Jeremy Menez (Paris St Germain), Loic Remy (Olympique Marseille), Mathieu Valbuena (Olympique Marseille)
No it wasn't, because I do not believe that. I can see why it would come across that way though. You have to have both tactics and talent, the right tactics with the wrong team isn't going to work. My argument is that England's talent isn't good enough that tactical considerations are secondary to roster considerations.
Could I be wrong? Sure.
He'll miss the matches against France and Sweden, and play against Ukraine. A fresh Rooney could be huge, but man that's a mountain to climb without him in the first two games. (Yes I'm implying that UKRAINE IS WEAK!)
Yes, of course. I should have made that clear.
I think even a Rooney-less England should be expected to beat Sweden.
Also an awesome sweeper: Benoit Assou-Ekotto.
I think your counter-argument is not really a counter, it's just saying that #### happens. Parking the bus isn't really a "tactic".
I think DA was saying that the most talented teams always win, just that the most talented team is more likely to win in the very-shortly-trained-for upcoming Euro tournament than the team built to a particular tactical system.
Guzan, Howard, Rimando, Bocanegra, Castillo (ugh), Cherundolo, Morales (interesting), Beckerman, Bradley, Coronoa, Edu, Johnson, Jones, Torres, Williams, Dempsey.
I'm saying I don't think England is that good. They're overrated because they're England. Simple as that.
You mean outliers? Sure, anyone can be an outlier.
Why do we need Beckerman when we have Edu, Bradley and Jones?
Koln fans' humiliation about to be complete.
Is Fortuna Dusseldorf an especial rival of Koln's?
By "his choice" is "his" Chandler's or Klinsmann's?
Is there a reason Landon Donovan is not on that list? Is he injured?
Chandler's.
They're calling in 29 players (the second round of call ups is on the 20th, that's when you'll see Donovan, he already acknowledged he'll be called up during the Galaxy's White House visit today) and then cutting 6 after training camp in a week. Given that 29 players is an odd number, I figure Klinsmann already knows his 23 man roster and is using those 6 spots to bring in the shortlist of injury replacements and have them in camp to keep them in the loop. I don't get Klinsmann's fascination with Beckerman, but he is playing well and if he's a short list injury replacement that's fine. That he was called in now and not on the 20th which was originally supposed to be the day for North American based players, that would further indicate to me that Beckerman will be cut.
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