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If Manfred concludes Manny was intentionally dogging it, is there any realistic way for the league to discipline Manny? Or is this more about Boras?
If Lasorda can't get his hair chopped off...I doubt the league can!
my head just exploded.
Because their articles don't sit next to Jim Rome?
Just for the record:
Manny played in 100 of Boston's 109 games while he was there. Only Dustin Pedrioa played in more, and Youkilis played in as many.
While he was there, he put up a .299/.398/.529/.927 line, good for a 140 OPS+ - better than last year.
Of course, he really started playing at half-speed after the All Star break, when the agitating for a trade really hit high gear, putting up a paltry .351/.467/.622/1.089 line.
this is enough to exonerate manny.
Yeah, but immediately before the trade he was 0 for 6. Sure, it was against the two best starters on the best team in baseball, but that's no excuse.
Obviously the result of the stress he was under at the time, with Boston trying to trade him.
But I've only heard him on the radio, I have no idea what he looks like. I do believe that Shaugnessy has some sort of Irish Jew-fro, based on the emails Jim Rome gets and the Manny CHB crack.
I have a two part article submitted to MSN with the first part running later today.
Part two deals with Boras' target--the Yankees.
Over $70 million coming off the books.
Opening a new park. Massive new revenues. Make a major splash.
Will need a corner OF/DH type.
Tweak the Red Sox. (see: Johnny Damon)
A four year contract will take Manny to 3000 hits/600 HR/2000 RBI--a trifecta accomplished only by Aaron ... milestones to sell to the Yanks.
Manny from NY.
Hank Steinbrenner in charge.
A perfect storm.
Boras' has been talking $100 million which points to the Yankees--he has a small window of opportunity that vanishes were just one option year picked up. Also, it's the only way Boras' gets paid as has been oft stated.
Best Regards
John
Typical Boras spin IMHO.
Which would make it easier for a team to pick up his option, after all, if he plays like a $25 million player, then he's a bargain at $20M--he couldn't cash in unless the options were dropped regardless of the quality of his play.
Play like a $15 million player, get the options dropped, then play like a $25 million player is how to cash in in this particular instance.
Just write off the $15 million-level play as knee problems and "Manny being Manny" and nobody bats an eye.
Best Regards
John
I gather Henry's hedge fund had a really bad July. Hopefully he'll be forced to sell soon, and we can get a real Boston owner who brings back Dan Duquette! Duquette, unlike the present mob, had a proper respect for excellence (as did Yawkey -- Lefty Grove and Jimmy Foxx as trades in his early years was a hell of a start.)
There are all sorts of accusations that Boras did this or that. A lot of them revolve around secret deals before contracts expired, especially in cases with opt outs. I've never seen a shred of hard evidence that he did anything unethical. I think the main reason he gets so much money for his clients is that he works very hard to find out which teams need what and what they're willing to pay when pushed, and he's very good at manipulating them into paying their limiting amount. I can in some cases agree with the rationale that he pushes his clients to take the biggest deal on the table, rather than the one which will make them happiest and most successful as players, but the ultimate decision rests with the player, not Boras. Varitek, for example, probably could have gotten a bit more than the 4 years, $40 million the Red Sox offered him (or at least a longer deal at more total money), but he made a choice that he wanted to stay in Boston. If other Boras clients don't make those choices, that's their business. His job is to get the best offers he can, and he's very good at it. As far as I can tell, the main reason owners don't like him is that his clients don't sign unless they're offered big bonuses. Considering that even a decent number of "can't miss" prospects do miss, and never sign another deal, that's just due diligence by an agent to make sure that that first bonus is a big one.
Because we all know that before all this the Red Sox never thought for a minute about trading him.
Exactly. And he always had the leverage to refuse any trade unless his options would be declined. The only thing he did was to reduce the chance that the Red Sox would pick up his options themselves, but he spent most of the first half of the season complaining that they hadn't done that. I don't see how anyone can call Manny's behavior part of a cunning scheme to get himself traded out of town. If all he wanted was to be traded, he could have had Boras go to management and say that he would waive his no-trade deal if the team acquiring him would agree to pick up the options. The fans might have gone nuts, but that's it. The only way this makes sense as a conspiracy is if management were in on it, too, and told Manny that he'd have to make noises like he was unhappy for them to be able to deal with the PR hit of dealing him. I just don't buy it.
No thanks! I'd rather win than keep players around past their primes out of sentimentality. Duquette did this even with his scrap-heap finds like O'Leary and Jefferson. Those guys were terrific players for the league minimum, and he was justifiably proud of finding them as free talent, but locking them up long-term wasn't the best idea.
Yes, clearly his true talent is a .500 average. If only he hadn't been playing in Boston all that time!
Seriously, though, I doubt the league is going after their pals in the Boston front office. The target is almost certainly Boras (and I agree with others that they won't pin anything on him).
Edit: the exclamation point after Duquette in 26 makes me wonder if karl hasn't started deliberately parodying himself.
I'd be interested in knowing more about the player/agent relationship. Is it really just as simple as X% of the contract? How would that work for a contract such as Zito? The total contract was for $126 million, so the agent gets, what, $12.6 million? But that's more than Zito got paid in his first year. So there must be some sort of annual payment thing. But what happens when the player fires the agent?
Also, has Boras really been working for free for Manny for the past few years (or however long he's been the agent)? What if Manny fires Boras now, Boras gets zero?
What would have been the result if Seattle had flatly refused to trade Griffey?
If this were proven (a very unlikely and farfetched "if"), couldn't MLB simply pull Boras' credential to represent MLB players? Don't agents have to register?
No chance of that. You don't really think MLB would allow an impartial investigation, do you? The members of the current ownership group are Bud's boys.
If there's any kind of punishment meted out to Manny though, it should not affect the Dodgers, they are completely innocent in all this. So if he's suspended, let Manny go back to Boston to serve his suspension and have Jason Bay go to the Dodgers.
Hmmmm... Now I'm starting to think karlmagnus's whole routine is a put-on. That's much less funny.
The Yanks do not need another corner OF/DH type. They need a 1st baseman. They have Matsui, Damon, and potentially Posada for DHing duties next year. They have Nady in RF and Matsui/Damon splitting time in left. Unless they make some big moves in the offseason, there's no room for him.
Of course, he overplayed his hand last season with the A-Rod opt out, since he was going for the $300 million barrier. But the inelegant manner in which he opted out helped drive a pretty much non-stop batch of bad publicity so he/A-Rod had to "settle" for the $275.
I'd put the chance of Manny ending up as a Yankee at less than 5%
KM is certainly single-minded and focussed, I'll give him that. I think this is crazy, but it's a laser-like focus on one single crazy idea, rather than some scattered, nebulous craziness. So it's respectable in that way.
You think Scott Boras told Manny to dog it?
"dog it"? I think Boras may have told Manny to make the Redsox FO uncomfortable- or more uncomfortable than usual.... I don;t think Manny actually played the game of baseball any differently than usual...
There were times during his last few weeks where Manny's play could be accused of less than 100% effort, but no more so than the previous 7.5 years. Red Sox front office and media sycophants just had a reason to notice this time instead of brushing it aside as Manny being Manny.
The only criterion the MLBPA imposes is that no agent may charge a fee or accept a commission that brings a player's salary below the major league minimum.
Well, I think this is unfair. Cordero was brought in to play second base while Greenwell was still with the team. He got hurt and also showed he couldn't hack playing at 2B defensively and was then moved to LF. Greenwell was, at the time, 32 and pretty clearly on the way out as a player. Cordero was 24 with an all-star season already under his belt. It's possible Duquette knew something about Cordero's wife-beating tendencies if there was something which had been covered up when they were both in Montreal, but I doubt it. Picking up Cordero for Rheal Cormier seemed like a good baseball move at the time, motivated by the constant desire of the Expos to get competent French-Canadian players. Moving him to left at that time didn't sound like a bad idea. Cordero and Greenwell had similar numbers, but Cordero was at an age where there was a good chance he'd get better and Greenwell was clearly on the downslope of his career.
As to what happens if the player fires the agent, nothing. The commission is earned when the contract is signed. It goes to the agent who negotiated it, not the new agent. (That's where this conspiracy theory about Boras comes from: Boras didn't negotiate Manny's existing deal, so he doesn't make money (*) until Manny signs a new one, so he needs for the options not to be exercised so that Manny could sign a new one.)
(*) Off the player contract. There are still endorsements and such.
Do people really believe that playing major league baseball is this easy even for a player with the talent of Ramirez, that the player can choose to "play like a $15 million player" or "play like a $25 million player" on a whim? That the player can just snap his fingers and decide which results he's going to produce? That the opposing teams don't have something to do with his results? That he can just decide to "be a $25 million player" and the opposing teams will grant him his wish?
John, please take us through how Ramirez actually accomplishes "playing like a $15 million player." Does he swing less hard? Swing at bad pitches? Not swing at good ones?
Anyway, the problem with this Vince Foster-style conspiracy theory that he was "playing like a $15 million player" is that it's not true. He wasn't playing like that. He was one of the best hitters in the league this year, was tied for second on the team in games played, and destroyed opposing pitchers after the controversy erupted.
And some big leaguers actually call some of this stuff false hustle. The fact is, you don't want certain veteran stars, especially if they have histories of leg injuries, to run out every ground ball full speed. I know it's tough to explain to the kiddies, but if a Darren Bragg-type player (just as the best example of the top off my head of someone who went all out 100% of the time) pulls a hamstring, you can have a replacement up from Pawtucket on a few hours notice who's not as good as Bragg hustling, but better than Bragg not hustling. For your star players, you can't do that.
Jeremy Kapstein got decertified for having a romantic relationship with the daughter of the Padre's owner or something, didn't he? There has to be some avoidance of a conflict of interest as well as this criterion. Or have the rules changed?
Of course people believe that, have a conversation or two with some non-stathead sports fans- those beliefs are pervasive.
Well, a $25 million player who's only in the lineup 3/5 of the time is pretty much a $15 million player.
Of course, he also turned off the TV (and, I believe, went to bed) rather than watch the last innings of the Sox victory in 2004, so there's decent reason to believe he's 100% insane.
Agreed, but few people will ever subscribe to this, I think because they can't accept the notion that hustling all the time might not be beneficial. I made that argument here last week, and it wasn't well received.
Ramirez played 22 of 24 games in July.
That doesn't work out to 60% using the math I was taught.
Kids understand better than you think. When I was a kid growing up in CT, we would all pretend to be Red Sox. The kid who got to play Butch Hobson had to injure himself crashing into a wall.
Thanks.
That's where this conspiracy theory about Boras comes from: Boras didn't negotiate Manny's existing deal, so he doesn't make money until Manny signs a new one, so he needs for the options not to be exercised so that Manny could sign a new one.
So Boras has been making pocket change (for him) from endorsement deals and the like since he signed on with Manny. And if Manny fires him tomorrow, that's all he ever gets? I guess that makes sense, and there are probably penalties in the agreement between player and agent.
It seems like that can create a lot of opportunity for the agent to be at odds with the player. Like it might be in Manny's best interest to have the option years picked up. Maybe he only gets 3/$45 on his next deal, but instead of his old agent getting 5% of $40M, Boras gets 5% of $45M.
Also, where's the incentive for Barry Zito's agent to do anything for him now? He gets most of his money no matter what, and putting in 7 years without meaningful additional compensation is a lot of work just hoping that Zito retains you for the next negotiation (which may be for the league minimum anyway).
As I said before, I just don't know much about the dynamics of the player/agent relationship. It only seems to come to the forefront when there's a contract to be negotiated.
I thought it was called white-boy hustle
I made that argument a few months ago on another site and the abuse I took was over the top- I think they thought I was a troll.
I remember reading an article a few years ago about an ex-MLB player in Japan. He wanted to give an example of how the Japanese league was different than the MLB- the team he was on had a star player in his early 30s, fellow was starting to have problems with muscle pulls and cramps- said the extensive pre-game workouts (running, calisthenics etc was wearing him out to much and he wasn't recovered by game time- said star player began slumping mid-season
The trainer suggested that the star player be allowed to take it easy- only half the pre-game workout for instance-- TPTB debated and debated, and decided that while it might be good for that player, the claimed negative impact on the rest of the team would outweigh that.
Check the B. J. Upton thread.
I think Zito's agent EARNED that money.
I do remember someone on the Red Sox a few years ago - I think it was Nomar - was actually told by management not to run out routine ground balls because of some leg injury. Anyone else remember this?
His agent is Boras. Boras aims for long term contracts for his players on the grounds that it's quite possible any contract they get will be the last one they sign. He's certainly right here. What else can he do for Barry Zito? He's not getting him any endorsement deals no matter how hard he tries. Maybe for Hoover or something, but that would be it.
No, but it's pretty difficult to keep all the Nomar injuries straight these days.
Both of these points are valid, but miss a rather important factor: Zito and Manny are not their only clients. Remember that not only is the whole business word-of-mouth, but clients can change agents at any time. Zito's agent doesn't need to worry so much about Zito retaining him for the next negotiation; he needs to worry about all his other clients retaining him. If he has the reputation of providing poor service to his existing clients, he isn't going to get new ones and isn't going to keep old ones.
Well, some of the people there were talking about conserving energy. That's definitely not a reason not to hustle. I agree a major leaguer should be enough of a conditioned athlete that he can run 90 feet, even while making the last out of an innings, and be recovered by the time he needs to make a play in the field. And if a manager makes a point of telling everyone to hustle out every ball, etc., and then someone doesn't do it, he does have to take some kind of disciplinary action or he loses the clubhouse. And Upton is a young kid with, as far as I know, no histories of leg injuries. But telling veterans with histories of leg problems "We need you at 95% for the long haul, avoiding injuries" is a different story.
We've all gone over this, but one way to play like a less valuable player is to sit out games because your knee hurts, or to stand and watch pitches go by you, or to play a routine fly ball into a triple. But you, as we know, claim those were all explicable in other ways (knees balk, who doesn't strike out against Mo?, he really was hustling and slipped and then got up and then spasmed onto the ball).
Clearly, however, some of his teammates thought he was shutting down and distracting their team as it fights to catch TB and hold off NY. Some opponents were amused and befuddled by his performance (see Mo's comments after the game, see the laughter from the Angels' dugout).
Nobody denies that Manny's a hitter of singular ability. One of the great right-handed hitters of all time. As I said, I'm pleased as punch he's a knucklehead who played himself out of that lineup. And since moving to LA his periodic knee issues seem to have subsided and he's been able to play pain free. Good for him and better for LA. Nonetheless, I'm confident the Sox team and management believes they've moved on as well as they could have, given the alternative.
I know the accusation that he sat out against Hernandez and Chamberlain et. al., but it's a hard argument to make in light of the fact that he was tied for second on the team in games played for the season, and played 22 of 24 games in July. (As well as the other reasons I've cited.)
Maybe we should look into why most of his teammates couldn't play as many games as him - whether they were faking injuries or asking to sit against certain pitchers.
Again, a difficult argument to make in light of the fact that he had a 1.060 OPS in July.
(As well as the other reasons I've cited.)
His one bad month was May, which doesn't fit with the conspiracy theory. How does a .714 OPS in May help him get a $100 million contract?
Pass.
Yeah, plenty of Packers fans believe that Aaron Rodgers and the two rookie QBs from this year's draft will easily be as good as Brett Favre. Rude awakenings, here we come.
Back on-topic, no one ever did anything about Sheffield intentionally muffing plays in Milwaukee to get shipped out of town, so I don't see why anyone would do anything about Manny whether or not he was giving 110%.
He dogs areas of the game that he is poorest at. More base running gaffes, poorer routes to the ball, throwing to the wrong place, mental lapses--things that could be written off as "Manny being Manny."
Also, stirring things up diminishes value (see: Bonds, Barry).
If Manny is a model citizen and actually is more focused on the field in LA--wouldn't you find that a little bit suspicious?
Manny will make his money with his bat--that wouldn't change, but to play like a $15 million (read: less than a $20 million) player is to do things that diminish/offset the value his bat provides without reducing the numbers the bat produces.
If his perceived value is less than $20 million--the options aren't worth it. If his perceived value is more than $20 million--then his options are a bargain. Since Boras/Ramirez wanted the options dropped then they certainly wouldn't want Manny's play to make $20 million a bargain (relatively speaking).
Heck, MLB thinks Bonds' "non-hitting issues" make the prorated major league minimum to be too much money to employ him.
That's all Ramirez would have to do--find ways to reduce the value of his bat in other areas of his game.
Let's see how the rest of the season plays out regarding other aspects of his game. After all, Boras wants bidders--if he casts himself only as a DH, that kills his value and eliminates 16 bidders ... just ask Barry Lamar.
Best Regards
John
Yet, we find it a stretch that people in baseball (that aren't owners) only look to make a buck by honest, ethical and straightforward means and never stretch the rules?
C'mon.
These guys are shooting up their bodies with God-knows-what for a few extra million--why is it so hard to believe that a player might not cut a few corners on the field if it means a bigger payday?
Best Regards
John
Do you recall why he missed only two games in July?
If he wasn't wearing a mask and carrying a shotgun when SF signed that contract, he should have been.
No one ever did anything about the time Mickey Mantle shot and killed an umpire for calling a third strike he disagreed with.
Oh wait, that didn't happen, either.
Having so much respect for you, I will give you a pass on your Oliver Stone moment, and just assume that the meds will kick in shortly and you will be your old, charming self.
Yes. Because the Red Sox told him to play or they'd suspend him, and he proved he was more mature and honorable than they were, by playing through the pain.
Hey - it's as good an answer as any the conspiracy theorists give.
Doesn't it make more sense that they believed that if they kept him, he was going to sit out on them?
Undermine the beloved icon so they could trade him without a murmur from the fans?
Good idea. Let's now hang him with things he hasn't done yet.
It's about what can be expected from the conspiracy theorists.
Unfortunately for your theory, it appears that he's been just as bad at defense in LA as he was in Boston. Unless Rob Neyer made this up:
John:
So your argument is that he tanks in the field and on the bases, but not at the plate.
Which means that we can't support the conspiracy theory by looking at hard data, since he wasn't tanking on offense. And, therefore, the great offensive numbers he put up in July can't refute the conspiracy theory either.
How convenient.
The conspiracy theorists really need to get their stories straight, though; if he mailed in the at bat against Rivera, that means he was tanking on offense.
It's getting confusing trying to keep track of all the different conspiracy theories.
-I see no evidence that he was trying to hurt the team on the field. The only allegation of such was Lobel's story about the Rivera AB, and he walked that back quickly. John's conspiracy theory is a mess, and Ray is exactly right to point out that Manny's defense in LA has been utterly horrific. Manny's had bad knees for years, and he just can't run night in and night out.
No disrespect meant to John, who I like, but I tried to address more of the specifics of his theory, and I had to give up because I couldn't follow it.
Anyway, the idea that Manny Ramirez is suddenly going to turn into Eric Byrnes in the field in LA is a bit out there.
But, but, his MRI came back "clean".
Why? Why did they need to trade him then?
Here's a newsflash:
They didn't.
These are small samples, but how did he do in July?
They didn't.
So again, your theory is that one day out of the blue, the whole Red Sox front office just decided to pick on Manny Ramirez?
I know I'm an idiot, but what happens if the player is making the minimum?
So Boras has been making pocket change (for him) from endorsement deals and the like since he signed on with Manny.
At this point isn't most of what Boras makes pocket change?
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