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Tuesday, October 08, 2019

Sources: Mets doing background work on Carlos Beltran, mutual interest between player and team

MINNEAPOLIS—The Carlos Beltran-as-Mets-manager speculation has now grown legs and turned into an actual story.

Mets officials have been doing background work on Carlos Beltran in recent days, trying to determine if he is ready to be a manager, according to major league sources.

Many Mets people know Beltran well from this time with the team; he is particularly close with Omar Minaya and Allard Baird, who was his GM in Kansas City. Now, the Mets are looking into Beltran’s development since he left in 2011, both as a leader and a rookie member of the Yankees front office.

When SNY first reported last week that Beltran’s name was in the mix to replace Mickey Callaway, we added heavy skepticism because of his sometimes bumpy tenure in Queens. A friend of Beltran’s went so far as to say there was “no chance” Beltran would take the job.

In this context, I’m pondering what “background work” entails- is it visiting a library with ProQuest and similar newspaper databases, or sending private eyes out to gather info?

 

QLE Posted: October 08, 2019 at 12:13 AM | 34 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: carlos beltran, managerial search, mets

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   1. winnipegwhip Posted: October 08, 2019 at 01:13 AM (#5887802)
Interview: Will you use flash the take sign with two strikes and two outs in the ninth of game 7?
   2. The Duke Posted: October 08, 2019 at 07:59 AM (#5887818)
It’s funny that this is what Beltran will be remembered for given his level of success in the playoffs. As a cardinals fan, I’m glad this was the one time he didn’t deliver
   3. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: October 08, 2019 at 09:45 AM (#5887842)
This is getting almost as old as the "Hey-the-Mets-are-still-paying-Bobby-Bonilla!-Am I right?-LOL!" joke.

And yeah, he should have thrown his bat at the ball...
   4. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: October 08, 2019 at 12:05 PM (#5887909)

In this context, I’m pondering what “background work” entails- is it visiting a library with ProQuest and similar newspaper databases, or sending private eyes out to gather info?

Reading all of his past tweets and social media postings?
   5. SoSH U at work Posted: October 08, 2019 at 12:10 PM (#5887912)
In this context, I’m pondering what “background work” entails- is it visiting a library with ProQuest and similar newspaper databases, or sending private eyes out to gather info?


In Arizona, they call it Pulling A Wally.

   6. Zach Posted: October 08, 2019 at 12:57 PM (#5887932)
I'm so jealous. I've always thought Beltran would be a great managerial candidate.
   7. salvomania Posted: October 08, 2019 at 01:39 PM (#5887953)
Beltran is part of pretty select, albeit somewhat arbitrary group:
Only eight other players have 1500+ runs scored, 1500+ RBI, and 300+ steals

Three of the 8 had careers that began in the 19th century, although two of those guys are thought of as primarily 20th-century players.

The five others (besides Beltran) include two old-timers and three post-WWII players, all five should be very easy to guess, although I could see one wrong name being guessed a lot.
   8. salvomania Posted: October 08, 2019 at 01:58 PM (#5887962)
There's another 19th-C ballplayer that's also part of the club (Cap Anson) but whose career SB totals are incomplete; he has 277 documented SB but that doesn't include any totals from 1876-1885.
   9. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: October 08, 2019 at 02:02 PM (#5887965)
Only eight other players have 1500+ runs scored, 1500+ RBI, and 300+ steals


This is one of those Jayson Stark stats where you throw a bunch of arbitrary threshholds together and are like "look how few guys did all these thing!" I still think he's a fine HoF selection, though. He's basically a slightly better version of Andre Dawson who took 9 years to get in. I'd guess Beltran takes around 5 or 6 ballots. Writers have been more generous in the last few years than they were when Dawson was on the ballot.
   10. SoSH U at work Posted: October 08, 2019 at 02:09 PM (#5887970)
This is one of those Jayson Stark stats where you throw a bunch of arbitrary threshholds together


It's too bad that salvo didn't acknowledge it was arbitrary. Oh, that's right, he did.

   11. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: October 08, 2019 at 02:17 PM (#5887973)

Bonds, A-Rod and Mays for the post-war guys?
   12. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: October 08, 2019 at 02:22 PM (#5887978)

And I assume Cobb and Speaker for the pre-war, non-1800s guys.
   13. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 08, 2019 at 02:28 PM (#5887980)
Looks like the Mets haven’t decided what they are looking for yet. They can go with the Known Quantity in Girardi, who is generally highly-regarded, or try the current trend of hiring a Recent Player without managerial experience but who has been long regarded as a future manager. The latter approach seems to have worked, so far, with Cora & Boone, but less so for some others. Will the Mets decide what approach they want to take, or which candidate?
   14. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: October 08, 2019 at 02:41 PM (#5887982)
Beltran seems like a no-brainer HOFer to me, even if it might take him a few ballots. If you don't like the arbitrary cutoffs, look at guys who are centered around Beltran and ignore the SBs for the moment:

28 other guys have between 1400-1800 R and RBI (Beltran has 1,582 and 1,587):

21 HOFers
3 not yet eligible but will get in -- Beltre, Cabrera and Ortiz
2 PED guys who would likely be in otherwise -- Sosa and Sheffield
Luis Gonzalez, a LF who has some PED suspicions
Todd Helton, a 1B who played in Coors Field

Those last two guys are at the bottom end of the 1400-1800 range in both categories. Beltran was also a much better baserunner than they were, playing a premium defensive position.
   15. Graham & the 15-win "ARod Vortex of suck" Posted: October 08, 2019 at 02:45 PM (#5887988)
Did Honus Wagner steal often enough to join that "club"?
   16. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: October 08, 2019 at 02:51 PM (#5887989)
And then some. Wagner is still 10th all time in stolen bases.
   17. salvomania Posted: October 08, 2019 at 02:58 PM (#5887992)
Bonds, A-Rod and Mays for the post-war guys?

And I assume Cobb and Speaker for the pre-war, non-1800s guys.

Did Honus Wagner steal often enough to join that "club"?

Yes, yes, and yes.

I thought Aaron would be a candidate, but he had "only" 240 steals.

The other two are HoFers, one a legend of the era, the other, mostly forgotten, although I remember him as the 1b on some of the first 20th-century Cardinals teams.
   18. Don August(us) Cesar Geronimo Berroa Posted: October 08, 2019 at 02:58 PM (#5887993)
Honus stole over 700 bases, so, yes. :-)

How about Nap Lajoie?
   19. salvomania Posted: October 08, 2019 at 03:08 PM (#5887994)
How about Nap Lajoie?

Nap it is.

Only nerds and cheaters will get the last one, who played the majority of his career in the 19th century (with a few good seasons in the 19-aughts).
   20. Don August(us) Cesar Geronimo Berroa Posted: October 08, 2019 at 03:08 PM (#5887995)
I think I am a nerd, but, not cheating. Is it Jake Beckley?

edit: he was very recently inducted in to the Reds hall of fame, and I know he played first base and played forever.
   21. salvomania Posted: October 08, 2019 at 03:13 PM (#5887997)
I think I am a nerd, but, not cheating. Is it Jake Beckley?

Yes, it is, nerd.
   22. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: October 08, 2019 at 03:16 PM (#5888000)
Only nerds and cheaters will get the last one, who played the majority of his career in the 19th century (with a few good seasons in the 19-aughts).


My first reaction to this was "I don't think you have to be anywhere near a Certified Nerd to know who Ed Delahanty was." But then I looked and, nope--he fell (too soon?) just short on RBI. So then I thought, ah, must be George Davis then. Guess what--he fell just short on RBI, too.

Bill Dahlen? Nope. Jesse Burkett, perhaps? No chance.

Now I'm 12 guesses deep and still don't have it, and starting to feel a little ashamed of myself.

edit: Goddammit, Don.
   23. Don August(us) Cesar Geronimo Berroa Posted: October 08, 2019 at 03:28 PM (#5888007)
not even sure why he popped in to my head, but, once he did, with a little thinking about it, i figured he had to be. the whole first base thing...
   24. Walt Davis Posted: October 08, 2019 at 05:52 PM (#5888069)
I wouldn't even consider a R/RBI/SB combo to be "arbitrary" as we normally use that term. R and RBI are two of the big traditional categories -- the SB then is just serving as a standard subsetting variable of "and this guy could run too." Power and speed is not an "arbitrary" combo and 1500 is a big, "all-time" type of number. Plus fans/writers have been fascinated with SBs forever.

It's when you get into non-milestones (250 HR), stats that aren't generally considered all that important (doubles), arbitrary endpoints and especially odd combinations of those that you become arbitrary. "Post-expansion players with at least 400 doubles, 200 HRs and 3 gold gloves" is "arbitrary;" "players with at least 2500 hits, 400 HRs and 250 SB" is not. (Bonds, Mays, ARod, Dawson, Beltran, Sheffield on the last one ... it is very era-driven of course since 400 HRs and power/speed combos used to be much more rare. The first one has way too many to mention.)

Agreed that 1500/1500/300 is not, on its own, an HoF case but it wasn't presented that way. One can also argue that SB have been over-rated in importance historically so while speed is "cool," its importance may lie more in defense/position/other baserunning than in SBs so there may be better ways to subset. Or maybe speed is just not important enough to matter much at all. So I suppose one might argue that SBs should always be considered an arbitrary standard but they aren't yet.
   25. SoSH U at work Posted: October 08, 2019 at 06:06 PM (#5888073)
One can also argue that SB have been over-rated in importance historically so while speed is "cool," its importance may lie more in defense/position/other baserunning than in SBs so there may be better ways to subset. Or maybe speed is just not important enough to matter much at all. So I suppose one might argue that SBs should always be considered an arbitrary standard but they aren't yet.


In his defense, Beltran wasn't just stealing bases. He also was avoiding getting caught. He beats the pants off of those other guys (even the ones without complete CS data) in SB percentage.
   26. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: October 08, 2019 at 06:18 PM (#5888080)
SB is a bit of an arbitrary category to include and 300 career SB is not that impressive in a historical context other than to say "and this guy could run too", like Walt said. Beltran is 41st all-time in RBI, 53rd in runs, but "only" 157th in SB.

But as most folks here probably know, Beltran's baserunning was pretty meaningful -- I think he's still the highest percentage base stealer of all time, and his WAR runs from baserunning are 26th all-time.

EDIT: Coke to SoSH
   27. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: October 08, 2019 at 06:28 PM (#5888083)

Yeah, I just checked and Beltran is still the leader in SB% for guys with more than 200 career SB*. There are some early century guys for whom we don't have CS numbers but hard to imagine any of them would be higher than Carlos.

* Chase Utley of all people actually has a slightly higher percentage, 87.5% to 86.4%, but with only 154 career SB to Beltran's 312.
   28. Hot Wheeling American Posted: October 08, 2019 at 06:34 PM (#5888085)
Looks like the Mets haven’t decided what they are looking for yet. They can go with the Known Quantity in Girardi, who is generally highly-regarded, or try the current trend of hiring a Recent Player without managerial experience but who has been long regarded as a future manager. The latter approach seems to have worked, so far, with Cora & Boone, but less so for some others. Will the Mets decide what approach they want to take, or which candidate?

Strong words. Lot to think about here.
   29. Howie Menckel Posted: October 08, 2019 at 08:08 PM (#5888104)
props for the Delahanty joke in 22
   30. Walt Davis Posted: October 08, 2019 at 08:36 PM (#5888112)
Huh ... I'll admit there are several "modern" player with more steals than Beltran that I would not have thought had more than Beltran. Larry Bowa, Tony Gwynn (I know he was fast when young), Jose Cruz Sr, Concepcion, Cardenal, Otis, Julio Cruz, Bourn, Ellsbury, Tom Goodwin, Abreu, Omar, Knoblauch, Crawford, plenty more. Carl Crawford is 21st for SB in the expansion era while playing in a non-SB era and with <6700 PA. I don't remember Crawford running THAT much -- 5 seasons of 50+ including a career-high 60. I thought of him as a steady 25-30 guy (then collapse). He's 168 ahead of Beltran, who ran a lot less often in his 30s than I realized.
   31. The Duke Posted: October 08, 2019 at 09:43 PM (#5888146)
I’m not sure Beltran is first ballot but I’m guessing within three. He’s beloved in the baseball and writer community and does a ton of charitable work. I think the writers will put him in quickly. He moved around a bit which is also a bit odd for a 70 WAR player and didn’t play for the top brand teams
   32. SoSH U at work Posted: October 08, 2019 at 09:47 PM (#5888148)
He seemed to put himself over the top at the end. I'm not exactly sure why, but he went from a guy who statheads talked about as a deserving HoFer to one that most everyone seemed to be looking at that way.

   33. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: October 08, 2019 at 09:50 PM (#5888150)
He seemed to put himself over the top at the end. I'm not exactly sure why, but he went from a guy who statheads talked about as a deserving HoFer to one that most everyone seemed to be looking at that way.
He got a ton of positive press for veteran leadershipping on the 2016 Astros. That one book practically credited him for the championship season.
   34. Karl from NY Posted: October 09, 2019 at 02:06 PM (#5888338)
Around 2014, Beltran was squarely regarded as "HOFer if he has a few more solid years of counting stats." Then he actually did so.

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