Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Wednesday, February 13, 2008

SP Times: Longoria earns chance to win job in spring training

Longoria could hit .500 during the spring and might not make the team? Waa?!...has Ida Greenberg’s ashes blinded Maddon that badly?

Longoria said he’d prefer the opportunity to show what he can do. And Maddon, whose exposure to Longoria has been limited, and executive vice president Andrew Friedman agreed they wanted to see him on the field, though their decision will be based on more than spring stats.

“He could come in and hit .500 and that might not make him make the team,” Maddon said. “It’s just going to be how we’re seeing it progress, how we feel the whole thing is coming together, a lot of different things.”

Their primary concern will be what’s best for Longoria, independent of other options, such as whether potential spot-holder Willy Aybar can handle the job. “Longoria is kind of on an island,” Maddon said. “Whatever we feel is best for him is what’s going to happen.”

Contractual issues could be factors, such as delaying arbitration and free-agent eligibility, but Maddon expects eventually the decision will be easy. “I really believe it’s going to smack us in the face one way or the other what we think we should do,” Maddon said after Tuesday’s kickoff luncheon at Tropicana Field. “He’s going to play here a long time. He’s going to play well. We just don’t exactly know when that’s going to be.”

Repoz Posted: February 13, 2008 at 11:46 AM | 35 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: rays

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. Honkie Kong Posted: February 13, 2008 at 12:58 PM (#2689609)
Longoria is kind of on an island

Guys who chose their dream vacation mate on an island as Longoria might be..disappointed.
   2. jyjjy Posted: February 13, 2008 at 01:15 PM (#2689615)
I'm going to have to disagree.
   3. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: February 13, 2008 at 01:33 PM (#2689625)
He could come in and hit .500 and that might not make him make the team,” Maddon said.

Holy Drungo Hazewood, Batman!
   4. Len Lansford, Carney Barker Posted: February 13, 2008 at 01:56 PM (#2689633)
So Tony Parker told her to pick up a sport of her own, and now this happens?
   5. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 13, 2008 at 01:59 PM (#2689634)
They're not going to make the playoffs this year. I'd keep him in the minors for a couple of months to slow the arbitration clock.
   6. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 13, 2008 at 02:01 PM (#2689636)
I'm going to have to disagree.

Tony Parker doesn't seem nearly famous enough for her. She should be at the Derek Jeter level of athlete.
   7. Keith Law Posted: February 13, 2008 at 02:19 PM (#2689649)
I'd keep him in the minors for a couple of months to slow the arbitration clock.

You're talking about a swing of maybe $2 million or so during his super-two year, and marginal increases in the three years after that. Balance that against the kid's development needs.

If you want to argue the Rays should keep him down until April 15th or so to push his free agency off by a year, sure. That's control. But arbitration is only money, and I think developing the kid properly (as opposed to leaving him to destroy AAA for two-plus months) is more valuable in the long run.
   8. Bull Pain Posted: February 13, 2008 at 02:24 PM (#2689652)
Of course on that island she won't have her makeup team. http://www.hollywoodrag.com/index.php?/celebrity2/image_full2/1019/
   9. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 13, 2008 at 02:27 PM (#2689654)
If you want to argue the Rays should keep him down until April 15th or so to push his free agency off by a year, sure. That's control.

That's what I meant by slowing the clock; getting the 7th season of control.

Is there any eveidence an extra month or two destroying AAA retards development? He's only had 104 AAA ABs, so I wouldn't think 2 months would hurt him.
   10. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: February 13, 2008 at 03:12 PM (#2689694)
"destroying AAA retards"

Hey, that's kind of harsh.
   11. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: February 13, 2008 at 03:34 PM (#2689724)

Tony Parker doesn't seem nearly famous enough for her. She should be at the Derek Jeter level of athlete.


That reminds me of the "Onion Magazine" cover - "Who's ####### Scarlett Johanson Now?"
   12. Keith Law Posted: February 13, 2008 at 05:47 PM (#2690027)
That's what I meant by slowing the clock; getting the 7th season of control.

OK, then perhaps I am getting too far into semantics, but that seventh season of control is not related to arbitration. There are two separate "clocks," so to speak:

1. Arbitration. The relevant questions here are whether the player will become a super-two (finishing a season with, roughly speaking, at least 2 years 130 days of service, but under 3 years) and when he will pass the 3-year threshold.

2. Free agency. The only question here is when he'll pass the six-year service mark, or, more specifically, which offseason will he enter with 6+ years of service?

For a player like Longoria, who will probably never return to the minors once he arrives in the majors (a la Gordon, Braun, Tulowitzki, Pedroia this year), these are easy things to figure out. To push back #2 by a year, wait two weeks into the season to call him up. To avoid super-two status, wait until about June 15th. I have no problem with the former, but the latter strikes me as a waste of everyone's time when the player is ready.

He's only had 104 AAA ABs, so I wouldn't think 2 months would hurt him.

But would it help him? It's a long-term asset management question. Two and a half months in the big leagues is, what, 200-250 PA? I have always taken it as a given that reps in the big leagues are a developmental positive for any player who's not completely overmatched - if someone can show me I'm wrong, I am absolutely open to changing my mind, but I don't know of a counterargument. Those 200-250 PA represent a significant amount of development time.
   13. Rally Posted: February 13, 2008 at 06:01 PM (#2690052)
Tony Parker doesn't seem nearly famous enough for her. She should be at the Derek Jeter level of athlete.


Must be something about San Antonio or Basketball's relative popularity to baseball. Tony Parker probably should rate as high or higher on the list of best point guards as Jeter does on a list of best shortstops. Tony can even keep up when Jeter inevitably says "count the ringz!"
   14. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 13, 2008 at 06:03 PM (#2690056)
Keith,

Thanks for the explanation, I knew the basics, but was a little fuzzy on details. Always thought of them as the same clock, but I can see the distinction.

So, keeping him down 2-4 weeks seems a no brainer; basically no major league team should ever have a hot shot rookie start the season in the majors.

I guess my question is, since we won't know if he's ready for the majors (104 AAA ABs and spring training won't really tell us), is the upside of those extra 2 months in the bigs (April 15th-June 15th) worth the downside that he comes up, is overmatched and has to go back down? Don't really have a strong opinion.
   15. GGC Posted: February 13, 2008 at 06:10 PM (#2690066)
But would it help him? It's a long-term asset management question. Two and a half months in the big leagues is, what, 200-250 PA? I have always taken it as a given that reps in the big leagues are a developmental positive for any player who's not completely overmatched - if someone can show me I'm wrong, I am absolutely open to changing my mind, but I don't know of a counterargument. Those 200-250 PA represent a significant amount of development time.


I think that Jim Storer once did a study of this in a BRJ (I have it at home, not in the office), but 1) I think that he was only looking at pitchers, and 2)I don'tt hink that he looked at too many players. Anyone have the BRJ handy? I think that the article was called something similar to "The Rod Pedraza Effect."
   16. Rally Posted: February 13, 2008 at 06:26 PM (#2690099)
So, keeping him down 2-4 weeks seems a no brainer; basically no major league team should ever have a hot shot rookie start the season in the majors.


How about they send him down at the end of spring and call him up for game 2. Could a guy play 161 games as a rookie and after 5 more years still not be eligible for free agency?

Or would something that blatant lead to a grievance or something?
   17. Rocco's Not-so Malfunctioning Mitochondria Posted: February 13, 2008 at 06:26 PM (#2690100)
I honestly hope they have Longoria up from the beginning, arb status be damned. He's someone who has a chance to win Rookie of the Year if he plays up to expectations. That's something the Rays have never had, and it would be a great way to buold a head of steam if they can get a 75 win year with a reigning rookie of the year. I don't think you can underestimate the importance of this with a team that's still trying to build a real fan base.

On a side note, I'm very disappointed that Maddon considers Gary Glover to be a lock in the bullpen. I can understand the other 4, but I'd much rather he consider Juan Salas to be a lock than career 90 ERA+ Gary Glover.
   18. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 13, 2008 at 06:29 PM (#2690115)
How about they send him down at the end of spring and call him up for game 2. Could a guy play 161 games as a rookie and after 5 more years still not be eligible for free agency?

Keith said 2 weeks, so I went with that. I think it's days of service, about 180 in a season, not games. I don't hink 1 game does it.

He's someone who has a chance to win Rookie of the Year if he plays up to expectations.

If he's that good, 2 weeks won't stop him from winning the award, and the Rays get him for 7 years not six.
   19. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: February 13, 2008 at 06:50 PM (#2690173)
hey without makeup, she looks just like Terry Hatcher!
   20. Keith Law Posted: February 13, 2008 at 06:50 PM (#2690174)
There are usually 182-183 days in a season, but it takes 172 days of service to get credit for a full year, so calling him up for G2 wouldn't matter. Also, if you're optioned for less than ten days, you get service-time credit for the days you missed while on optional assignment.

I say "two weeks" as a rule of thumb, but if you want to be ultra-calculating, you could count back 171 days from the final day of the season. Of course, such a player would absolutely be a super-two, so you'd get him cheap for the first three years (the 171-day season plus two full years), then in arb for four years.
   21. Oriole Tragic is totally awesome in the postseason Posted: February 13, 2008 at 06:58 PM (#2690194)
#17: Rocco was third in the 2003 RoY vote.
   22. CSULB Guy Posted: February 13, 2008 at 07:01 PM (#2690200)
The Dirtbag SS machine continues! (Crosby, Tulowitzki, Longoria, and I think we've got another one on the pipeline.)

Re #2, #4, #6, #8, #19 above: I do remember Longoria quoted in the campus paper when he was a student as saying he never watched that show [Desparate Housewives.] But you guys are never going to let him escape, are you?
   23. Rusty Priske Posted: February 13, 2008 at 07:06 PM (#2690209)
How can you avoid it? We are talking ONE LETTER difference.

I remember when I saw him getting drafted. I thought it was a joke.


(Besides, if he is successful he should work it into a poster deal or something with the two of them. Heck, I'd do that for free.)
   24. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: February 13, 2008 at 07:20 PM (#2690246)
"Tony Parker doesn't seem nearly famous enough for her. She should be at the Derek Jeter level of athlete."

It looks a little closer after you remember that

a) Tony Parker speaks French
and
b) Derek Jeter (allegedly) has herpes
   25. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: February 13, 2008 at 07:21 PM (#2690250)
Of course on that island she won't have her makeup team.

If that's the worst she can look, SOLD!
   26. Daryn Posted: February 13, 2008 at 07:23 PM (#2690254)
There are usually 182-183 days in a season, but it takes 172 days of service to get credit for a full year, so calling him up for G2 wouldn't matter. Also, if you're optioned for less than ten days, you get service-time credit for the days you missed while on optional assignment.

I say "two weeks" as a rule of thumb, but if you want to be ultra-calculating, you could count back 171 days from the final day of the season. Of course, such a player would absolutely be a super-two, so you'd get him cheap for the first three years (the 171-day season plus two full years), then in arb for four years.


If there are 182 days in a season (364 in two seasons) but 172 days counts for a full season (and presumably 344 days counts as two full seasons) don't you have to hold him back 21 days -- 23 days to be extra safe?
   27. Voros McCracken of Pinkus Posted: February 13, 2008 at 08:53 PM (#2690423)
You're talking about a swing of maybe $2 million or so during his super-two year, and marginal increases in the three years after that. Balance that against the kid's development needs.

I agree with Keith here. The only way you keep Longoria in the minors is if you think he'll badly struggle in the majors. That seems unlikely.

The one thing that has to be done is to commit to him for the majority of the season if that's the direction you want to go. To send him down after one month of bad hitting is a bad idea.
   28. Greg Maddux School of Reflexive Profanity Posted: February 13, 2008 at 09:01 PM (#2690437)
If there are 182 days in a season (364 in two seasons) but 172 days counts for a full season (and presumably 344 days counts as two full seasons) don't you have to hold him back 21 days -- 23 days to be extra safe?

No, there's a 172-day cap in a given season.
   29. Keith Law Posted: February 13, 2008 at 09:07 PM (#2690443)
If there are 182 days in a season (364 in two seasons) but 172 days counts for a full season (and presumably 344 days counts as two full seasons) don't you have to hold him back 21 days -- 23 days to be extra safe?

A player can not accrue more than 172 days in one "championship season."
   30. Mike Green Posted: February 13, 2008 at 09:10 PM (#2690449)
I agree with Keith Law's position completely. Rays' management has not acted this off-season as if the $2 million difference between super-2 and not for Longoria would be the key factor. I would be very surprised if he is not up with the big club at some point in April.
   31. Honkie Kong Posted: February 13, 2008 at 09:13 PM (#2690451)
Yea, if they are counting on Aybar to the IF who keeps Longoria off the big league team...

I quite liked Aybar when the Braves got him. And I thought they traded him at what was the nadir of his value. Little was I to know that he would then end up in jail for wife beating.
Still Mr.189.00 better provide some value!
   32. Greg Maddux School of Reflexive Profanity Posted: February 13, 2008 at 09:29 PM (#2690468)
Everything you ever wanted to know about how service time is calculated:

ARTICLE XXI--Credited Major League Service

A. Definitions


Those Player rights expressly set forth in the Basic Agreement for which a Player's eligibility is dependent upon credited Major League service will be determined as follows:

  (1) One full day of Major League service will be credited for each day of the championship season a Player is on a Major League Club's Active List. A total of 172 days of Major League credited service will constitute one full year of credited service. A Player may not be credited with more than one year of credited service, 172 days, in one championship season. Major League service will be computed commencing with the date of the first regularly scheduled championship season game. This rule shall apply uniformly to all Players and all Clubs notwithstanding differences in a particular Club's schedule.

  (2) For purposes of calculating credited service, a Player will be considered to be on a Club's Active List if:

    (a) placed on a disciplinary suspension by a Club, the Vice President, On-Field Operations or the Commissioner, or on the Disabled List; or

    (b) called to active military duty for up to two years or if called to emergency duty by the National Guard for a period of up to thirty days.

B. Optional Assignments

If a Player is optionally assigned for a total of less than 20 days in one championship season, the Player shall be credited with Major League service during the period of such optional assignment(s).

For purposes of counting days on option, the date of the optional assignment shall be counted and the date of recall shall no be counted, provided that the date of recall shall be counted if the recall takes place after the start of any Minor League game in which the Player was eligible to play.
   33. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 13, 2008 at 09:31 PM (#2690469)
Of course, such a player would absolutely be a super-two, so you'd get him cheap for the first three years (the 171-day season plus two full years), then in arb for four years.

Keith,

Thanks againf for the info. Are there any teams you know that systematically exploit this to get the 7 years of control? It seems like a major advantage.
   34. Rocco's Not-so Malfunctioning Mitochondria Posted: February 13, 2008 at 09:42 PM (#2690484)
#17: Rocco was third in the 2003 RoY vote.


I know that. He still didn't WIN. You can't market that someone came in top 3 in the voting. Same goes for Kazmir, who also placed.


If he's down for 2 weeks, I can live with that. Still, it would be another sign of cheapskate-ism from the NDRO front office; if they really want to get rid of that scarlett letter, then it helps to not be stingy in matters like this (not to mention that it alienates the player when it DOES come time to negotiate an extension).
   35. Rally Posted: February 13, 2008 at 10:00 PM (#2690496)
There are usually 182-183 days in a season, but it takes 172 days of service to get credit for a full year, so calling him up for G2 wouldn't matter.


Thanks for the clarification.

I think holding a player back for 2 weeks would be a huge deal to a team like the Devil Rays. That 7th year is right in the player's prime. I know arbitration won't be cheap if its a top caliber player, but your advantage is you get a player at his peak for a one year contract. If you don't have this leverage you'd have to commit to a long term contract. If Longoria becomes a superstar and the Rays don't think they can keep him into free agency, they would also have the option of trading him, probably for a Santana-like package before his 7th year.

Still, it would be another sign of cheapskate-ism from the NDRO front office; if they really want to get rid of that scarlett letter, then it helps to not be stingy in matters like this (not to mention that it alienates the player when it DOES come time to negotiate an extension).


This is all speculative, and last time the Rays had a chance to do something like this was with Rocco Baldelli, and they had him in the opening day lineup. They did deny September callups to Upton and Young in 2005, but that would not have made them free agents or arb eligible any sooner.

A real cheapskate organization is one that takes a pitcher who has pitched hurt for you in the past in heroic fashion, who signed a below market contract extension, and make noises about trying to void his contract when he gets hurt in the offseason.

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

News

All News | Prime News

Old-School Newsstand


BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
The Piehole of David Wells
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogOTP 19 February 2018: Does Buster Posey Have a Post-playing Career in Politics?
(132 - 10:16am, Feb 20)
Last: You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR)

NewsblogMLB announces pace of play initiatives | MLB.com
(53 - 9:57am, Feb 20)
Last: jmurph

NewsblogPrimer Dugout (and link of the day) 2-20-2018
(1 - 9:50am, Feb 20)
Last: Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee)

Sox TherapyFor Future Considerations
(17 - 9:49am, Feb 20)
Last: Nasty Nate

NewsblogJ.D. Martinez reportedly has deal with Red Sox
(23 - 9:44am, Feb 20)
Last: TDF didn't lie, he just didn't remember

NewsblogThe Sabermetric Movement’s Forgotten Foremother - The Ringer
(1 - 9:29am, Feb 20)
Last: Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad)

NewsblogFor Yankees and Gleyber Torres, it’s about wins, not money | Newsday
(26 - 9:09am, Feb 20)
Last: JRVJ

NewsblogRob Manfred Might Have Just Made a Mistake | FanGraphs Baseball
(26 - 8:42am, Feb 20)
Last: eddieot

NewsblogRays trade Odorizzi to Twins, acquire Cron from Angels, DFA All-Star Dickerson
(41 - 7:47am, Feb 20)
Last: manchestermets

Hall of MeritMost Meritorious Player: 1940 Discussion
(27 - 4:20am, Feb 20)
Last: bjhanke

NewsblogMets General Manager Sandy Alderson Thinks Tim Tebow Will Play in the Major Leagues
(32 - 9:28pm, Feb 19)
Last: bunyon

NewsblogPrimer Dugout (and link of the day) 2-19-2018
(13 - 8:26pm, Feb 19)
Last: Der-K: downgraded to lurker

NewsblogOTP 12 February 2018: Jeff Samardzija explains why politics and baseball rarely mix
(2004 - 7:51pm, Feb 19)
Last: ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick

NewsblogEric Hosmer surprised Red Sox didn't pursue him | The Kansas City Star
(20 - 7:27pm, Feb 19)
Last: Adam Starblind

NewsblogPadres, Eric Hosmer agree to terms
(46 - 2:33pm, Feb 19)
Last: PreservedFish

Page rendered in 0.5909 seconds
47 querie(s) executed