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Sunday, May 14, 2017

Sports on Earth:  If the Yanks Retired Every Number .

22—Allie Reynolds, RHP, 1947-1954

Acquired from Cleveland straight-up for Hall of Famer Joe Gordon after the 1946 season, the hard-throwing Reynolds was a five-time All-Star and six-time World Champion in New York, finishing in the top three in the AL MVP Award voting in both 1950 and ‘51. Primarily a starter, he also appeared regularly in relief, both in the regular season and World Series….

43—Jeff Nelson, RHP, 1996-2000, 2003

A right-handed, side-arming set-up man with the Frisbee slider and chainsaw-starting celebration, Nelson left his mark on the great late ‘90s Yankees teams, posting a 139 ERA+ in his five full seasons in New York….

99—Aaron Judge, OF, 2016-present

Judge is actually the third Yankee to wear No. 99. Righty reliever Brian Bruney wore it in 2009, and Charlie “King Kong” Keller wore it in his final Major League season, which consisted of a pinch-hit strikeout and a single inning as a defensive replacement in left field. The question is: Will Judge be the LAST Yankee to wear the number?

ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 14, 2017 at 01:09 PM | 37 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: uniforms, yankees

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   1. Man o' Schwar Posted: May 14, 2017 at 06:30 PM (#5455256)
43—Jeff Nelson, RHP, 1996-2000, 2003

My memory of Jeff Nelson is that I had a friend who referred to him as "WT Nelson", the WT standing for "white trash". He said Nelson always looked like he just drove up from the trailer park to pitch in the game before heading off to his graveyard shift at the 7-11.
   2. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 14, 2017 at 06:44 PM (#5455259)
Nellie's career ERA against the Red Sox: 1.92. In Fenway Park: 1.76. Nuf sed.
   3. Swoboda is freedom Posted: May 14, 2017 at 07:03 PM (#5455265)
If the Yanks Retired Every Number .



Wait, you mean they haven't?
   4. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: May 14, 2017 at 07:13 PM (#5455272)
This is going to be a bit of a challenge, given that the set of whole numbers is infinite.
   5. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: May 14, 2017 at 07:40 PM (#5455274)
NY is going to retire numbers that haven't even been discovered yet! As a matter of fact they are going to claim ownership of all numbers and all the other players in the league will be forced to wear symbols only.
   6. cardsfanboy Posted: May 14, 2017 at 07:56 PM (#5455277)
This is going to be a bit of a challenge, given that the set of whole numbers is infinite.


Eddie Gaedel will attest that we aren't limited to whole numbers either. And heck there have been both 0 and 00 worn by players...
   7. Batman Posted: May 14, 2017 at 08:29 PM (#5455300)
i -- Jack Chesbro
   8. vortex of dissipation Posted: May 14, 2017 at 09:41 PM (#5455339)
Eddie Gaedel will attest that we aren't limited to whole numbers either.


It may not be officially retired, but I'll bet that no player will ever again wear number 1/8 for the St. Louis Browns.
   9. Ziggy: The Platonic Form of Russell Branyan Posted: May 14, 2017 at 09:59 PM (#5455348)
The set consisting of all of the natural numbers is the same size as the set consisting of 1/8 together with all of the natural numbers. Things don't actually get freaky until you allow numbers with infinitely many decimal places.
   10. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 14, 2017 at 10:03 PM (#5455350)
The set consisting of all of the natural numbers is the same size as the set consisting of 1/8 together with all of the natural numbers.

I think current mathematic thought is that some infinities are bigger than other infinities.
   11. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: May 14, 2017 at 10:08 PM (#5455351)
I think current mathematic thought is that some infinities are bigger than other infinities.


For example, the infinity of irrational numbers is infinitely larger than the infinity of rational numbers.
   12. catomi01 Posted: May 14, 2017 at 10:11 PM (#5455352)
statements and thinking like 10 & 11 are why I became a history major.
   13. cardsfanboy Posted: May 14, 2017 at 10:19 PM (#5455357)
I think current mathematic thought is that some infinities are bigger than other infinities.


Isn't that pretty much obvious? The argument that you can add 1 to a whole number until infinity is very true, so it's an infinite number, but when you include rationals, they have an infinite amount within each number, so of course as you add one to integers, you are still going to be adding another infinite set of numbers to the rational definition of 'infinity'.
   14. Ziggy: The Platonic Form of Russell Branyan Posted: May 14, 2017 at 10:43 PM (#5455365)
Yes, some infinites are larger than others. But {1/8, 0, 1, 2, ...} isn't any larger than {0, 1, 2, ... } There's an order-preserving mapping from each to the other. You get a larger infinite set when you have a set that's got infinitely many members that fall between any two members. That's why the set of real numbers is larger than the set of natural numbers (although they're both infinite).
   15. TomH Posted: May 15, 2017 at 07:59 AM (#5455400)
Are there any rules that prevent teams from assigning players
- fractional numbers (yes, I am aware of Eddie Gaedel's uni # for his one AB)?
- irrational numbers, such as e and pi?
- negative numbers?
- 0, and 00 (Jim Otto reference)?
- three digit numbers?
- use of letters., by themselves or in combination?
- even sillier, symbols, so that a player's number could be 4! or " or 9/3 or 1-1 (ref to Prince)?

I suspect most of this is simply not done for practical and esoteric reasons. But pi seems like an obvious one to try.

   16. Batman Posted: May 15, 2017 at 08:45 AM (#5455409)
Benito Santiago wore 09 for a while, including the leading zero.
   17. JohnQ Posted: May 15, 2017 at 09:58 AM (#5455423)
From Batman #16:

Benito Santiago wore 09 for a while, including the leading zero.


He wore "09" because his chest protector back strap obscured his #9 number.
   18. catomi01 Posted: May 15, 2017 at 10:05 AM (#5455427)
He wore "09" because his chest protector back strap obscured his #9 number.


I'm actually happy to hear this - growing up, I wore number 7 a lot (Mantle) - once I started catching, it didn't feel right having the number covered by the strap, so I switched to 20 for Mike Stanley...gone through about 25 years feeling really weird and that I'm the only one who would think that.
   19. JohnQ Posted: May 15, 2017 at 10:14 AM (#5455441)
From Tom H#15:

0, and 00 (Jim Otto reference)?


Yeah quite a few players wore 0 & 00.

0: Al Oliver, George Scott, Oscar Gamble, Yunel Escobar, Oddibe McDowell, Rey Ordonez & a few others.

00: Bobby Bonds, Jose Canseco, Don Baylor, Tony Clark, Jeff Leonard, Bobo Newsom, John Mayberry, Cliff Johnson & a few others.

The Yankees have never given out 0 or 00 but maybe they will now that so many numbers have been retired. Also, a lot of broadcasters kept saying that all the "single" digits are retired by the Yankees but that's not really true because "0" is still available.

   20. JohnQ Posted: May 15, 2017 at 10:23 AM (#5455448)
From catomi01 #18:

I'm actually happy to hear this - growing up, I wore number 7 a lot (Mantle) - once I started catching, it didn't feel right having the number covered by the strap, so I switched to 20 for Mike Stanley...gone through about 25 years feeling really weird and that I'm the only one who would think that.


I'm don't know if MLB made some type of rule against a "0" before another digit with an exception for 00. I think Santiago was the last player to do it. I think David Wells wanted to wear "03" for the Yankees in honor of Babe Ruth but the Yankees but the kibosh on that. Santiago wore #10 then #9 for the Padres. Then he wore "09" for the Padres & Marlins and then never wore it again. He wore #18 for the Phillies, Reds and Blue Jays. Then he wore #9 for the Cubs and #6 for the Reds. Then he wore #33 for the Giants, #30 for the Royals and #34 for the Pirates.
   21. JohnQ Posted: May 15, 2017 at 10:34 AM (#5455453)
From Tom H #18:

Are there any rules that prevent teams from assigning players
- fractional numbers (yes, I am aware of Eddie Gaedel's uni # for his one AB)?
- irrational numbers, such as e and pi?
- negative numbers?
- 0, and 00 (Jim Otto reference)?
- three digit numbers?
- use of letters., by themselves or in combination?
- even sillier, symbols, so that a player's number could be 4! or " or 9/3 or 1-1 (ref to Prince)?

I suspect most of this is simply not done for practical and esoteric reasons. But pi seems like an obvious one to try.


I played softball with a guy who wore "pi" on his back. They put the 4" front numbers on his back 3.1415. Another season he wore the infinity symbol on his back. It was really just the #8 placed horizontally instead of vertically.

I'm not sure if there is a specific uniform rule against wearing a fraction or triple digit or negative number etc. It may just be an unwritten uniform rule.
   22. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: May 15, 2017 at 10:43 AM (#5455456)
He wore "09" because his chest protector back strap obscured his #9 number.

IIRC, his mom complained that she couldn't see his number while watching on TV.

Happy Mothers Day!
   23. Tom Nawrocki Posted: May 15, 2017 at 10:54 AM (#5455464)
This looks like the only rule regarding numbers:

All players on a team shall wear uniforms identical in color, trim and style, and all players uniforms shall include minimal six-inch numbers on their backs.

Nothing in there says the numbers need to be whole, rational, or even non-Roman. If the Yankees want to hand out more single-digit numbers, V is arguably acceptable.

I didn't know, though, that numbers are a required part of the uniform. You can't go out there un-numbered.
   24. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 15, 2017 at 10:57 AM (#5455468)
Bobo Newsom

That was back in 1943, and since it predated all the others by 35 or more years, I wonder what could have been the story behind it. I almost wonder whether he'd asked to have "B0B0" on the back of his uniform but had to settle for 00 instead.
   25. JohnQ Posted: May 15, 2017 at 11:05 AM (#5455482)
From Tom Nawrocki #23:

All players on a team shall wear uniforms identical in color, trim and style, and all players uniforms shall include minimal six-inch numbers on their backs.


I think the San Francisco Giants are the only current team to wear 6" back numbers. They wear the 6" on their away jerseys. I think the Orioles in the 1970's wore a 6" back number. 8" back numbers are basically the standard. The Phillies pre-1973 wore those huge back numbers with no name. I think it was a 10" or 12" number on the back.
   26. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 15, 2017 at 11:16 AM (#5455495)
The Phillies pre-1973 wore those huge back numbers with no name. I think it was a 10" or 12" number on the back.

I first followed baseball in the early 50's, and even then those giant back numbers on the Phillies uniforms really stood out. I think they arrived in 1950 along with the introduction of the candy cane pinstripes.
   27. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 15, 2017 at 11:24 AM (#5455503)
But pi seems like an obvious one to try.

If neither Pie Traynor nor Felix Pie did it, it's probably not gonna happen.

EDIT: And yes, I know, Felix "Pee-Ay."
   28. Batman Posted: May 15, 2017 at 11:45 AM (#5455522)
Pie's number should have been 12/42/10. Or whatever his shoe sizes were.
   29. vortex of dissipation Posted: May 15, 2017 at 12:48 PM (#5455587)
Bobo Newsom
That was back in 1943, and since it predated all the others by 35 or more years, I wonder what could have been the story behind it. I almost wonder whether he'd asked to have "B0B0" on the back of his uniform but had to settle for 00 instead.


According to the biography "Bobo Newsom: Baseball's Traveling Man" by Jim McConnell, he chose 00 because 00 was "his lucky spot on the roulette table." He also did it because he knew it would attract attention. The book notes that "When he joined the Yankees in 1947, management specifically forbade Newsom from wearing 00."
   30. JohnQ Posted: May 15, 2017 at 04:59 PM (#5455885)
The Yankee choices for retired numbers and plaques are pretty odd & interesting.

Usually it takes about 45+ WAR as a Yankee to get your number retired. 13/18 players not counting Cano have their number retired.

45 WAR as a Yankee but number not retired:

Red Ruffing
A-Rod
Willie Randolph
Tony Lazzeri
Roy White
Robinson Cano

Red Ruffing wore multiple numbers but he wore #15 for 11 seasons. He's in the HOF as a Yankee and he really should have his number retired alongside Munson like they did with Dickey. He at least has a plaque but for some reason it took until 2004 for him to get one

It's highly doubtful they will every retire A-Rod's number, maybe they will give him a plaque.

Willie Randolph is one of the most underrated players of the past 50 years. That's odd for a Yankee who appeared in the WS. At least he has a plaque. You could make a great case that they retire #30 for Randolph/Stottlemyre.

Tony Lazzeri didn't wear a number for his first 3 seasons. Then he wore multiple numbers but mainly #6 for 5 seasons. He's in the HOF as a Yankee. What's really odd is that he doesn't even have a plaque?? I don't understand that at all.

Roy White was a very underrated player stuck in Yankee stadium as a Right handed hitter during the 1960's. He should at least have a plaque. You could make a strong case that #6 should be retired for Lazzari, White & Torre.

Cano is still active. It will be interesting to see if they retire his number if he gets into the HOF.

Players with less than 40 WAR as a Yankee with their # retired:

E. Howard 27.7 WAR, 10.6 WAA
R. Maris 26.3 WAR, 15.6 WAA
R. Jackson 17.1 WAR, 8.0 WAA
B. Martin 6.1 WAR + 1WS, 2 AL pennants & .591 record as Manager.

Players with 40+ WAR are usually are a lock to get at least a plaque. 21/27 not counting Cano.

Players with 40+WAR without a plaque:

A-Rod-54.2. Not likely but maybe in 10 years.
T. Lazzeri-48.3 Seems like a huge oversight for a Yankee HOF.
R. White-46.7, very underrated
G. Nettles-44.3, I don't get this at all considering he was a WS hero as well.
E. Combs-42.5, I don't get this either considering he's in the HOF as Yankee. He also was the original #1 for 6 seasons.
G. Mcdougald-40.7, The original multi position player. Very underrated.

Players with less than 40 WAR with a plaque:
L. Gomez-38.6 WAR, 13.8 WAA, HOF with Yankee cap
P. O'neil-26.6 WAR, 8.0 WAA
A. Reynolds-20.7 WAR, 6.7 WAA
R. Gossage-19.0 WAR, 13.8 WAA, HOF with Yankee cap
T. Martinez-16.6 WAR, 1.8 WAA

20+ WAA without a plaque:

A-Rod-31.6, maybe in 10 years.
C. Keller-28.3, He was on a HOF path before injury. He really should have a plaque.
R. Cano-24.7, He might get one.
J. Gordon-24.3, This is surprising as well considering he's in the HOF as a Yankee and won an MVP award.
G. McDougald-24.1, very underrated.
G. Nettles-23.1,
T. Lazzeri-22.8, Very odd oversight
R. Henderson-21.7, underrated as a Yankee. Actually better than Mattingly.
R. White-20.2, very underrated.

Tino Martinez was really an odd choice for a plaque so was Allie Reynolds. I know Paul O'neil was a huge fan favorite but he doesn't deserve a plaque either.

You could also make a case that Ralph Houk deserves a plaque: 2 WS, 3 A.L. Pennants, .539 win%.
   31. Cowboy Popup Posted: May 15, 2017 at 08:40 PM (#5456072)
Tino Martinez had a plaque? Really? Did he die?
   32. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 15, 2017 at 09:08 PM (#5456083)
Tino Martinez was really an odd choice for a plaque so was Allie Reynolds.

Allie Reynolds was the ace on a team that won five straight World Series. In those five Series, he went 6 and 2 with 2 complete game shutouts, 1 10 inning 2 to 1 win, and an overall 2.45 ERA. Considering that this was the greatest short term team accomplishment in baseball history, and considering Reynolds' key part in that streak, there's no way in the world that he isn't deserving of a Yankee Stadium plaque, regardless of his WAR or WAA. This is an award given by the Yankees, not by the Hall of Fame or the Hall of Merit.
   33. The Yankee Clapper Posted: May 15, 2017 at 10:11 PM (#5456108)
If Allie Reynolds' accomplishments had been for George Steinbrenner's Yankees, he'd undoubtedly have a retired number and been a very rich man. Despite the tough exterior, George was a bit of a softie, who went out of his way to honor the players who hard starred for him, even if that encompassed less than their entire career. That was mostly a prospective-only change, as George didn't do anything for those before his ownership, other than a couple of players who had been part of his adult consciousness and were probably not as fully appreciated as they should have been, Roger Maris & Elston Howard.
   34. cardsfanboy Posted: May 15, 2017 at 10:25 PM (#5456113)
Tino Martinez had a plaque? Really? Did he die?


Plaque, not plague....
   35. JohnQ Posted: May 15, 2017 at 11:08 PM (#5456138)
From ERROR #32:

Allie Reynolds was the ace on a team that won five straight World Series. In those five Series, he went 6 and 2 with 2 complete game shutouts, 1 10 inning 2 to 1 win, and an overall 2.45 ERA. Considering that this was the greatest short term team accomplishment in baseball history, and considering Reynolds' key part in that streak, there's no way in the world that he isn't deserving of a Yankee Stadium plaque, regardless of his WAR or WAA. This is an award given by the Yankees, not by the Hall of Fame or the Hall of Merit.


Hey lets be serious, it wasn't Allie Reynolds and a bunch of other guys that won those 5 WS. You had Joe Dimaggio, Mickey Mantle, Yogi Berra, Phil Rizzuto, Eddie Lopat, Whitey Ford, Vic Raschi, Hank Bauer, Gene Woodling, Gil Mcdougall & Tommy Heinrich on those teams. Any pitcher would be lucky to pitch on those teams.

And Allie Reynolds wasn't the best pitcher on those 1949-53 teams, Eddie Lopat was.

Eddie Lopat 1949-53: 80-36 .690 win%, 131 era+, 14.7 WAR, 6.9 WAA.
Allie Reynolds 1949-1953: 83-41 .669 win%, 119 era+, 13.6 WAR, 5.4 WAA.

and Lopat was 4-1 with a 2.60 era in those WS.

Allie Reynolds got a plaque because Steinbrenner was on a kick to retire numbers and give out plaques during the 1980's because the Mets had taken over NYC. Plus he grew up in Cleveland during the 1940's and remembered Reynolds from his days as a Cleveland Indian. Plus Reynolds was still alive in 1989. Red Ruffing, Tony Lazzari, Earle Combs, Joe Gordon, Waite Hoyt, Ray Caldwell, Herb Pennock, Roger Peckinpaugh, Jack Chesbro, & Bob Shawkey were all dead by the mid 1980's. Also, Reynolds only spent 8 seasons with the Yankees. Very weak choice for a plaque in monument park. Reynolds has about the same lifetime Yankee WAR (20.7) as Mark Teixeira, Fritz Peterson, Tom Tresh, Roger Clemens, Hideki Matsui, David Cone & Tommy John.

Reggie Jackson was a poor choice for a retired number and a plaque as well but Reggie Jackson sold his HOF plaque to Steinbrenner for a lifetime job full of perks.

These are the players who should have plaques in monument park:

Tony Lazzeri
Roy White
Joe Gordon
Earle Combs
Bob Shawkey
Charlie Keller
Gil McDougald
A-Rod
   36. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: May 15, 2017 at 11:16 PM (#5456141)
Tino Martinez had a plaque? Really? Did he die?


Plaque, not plague....

I think Cowboy Popup was suggesting he may have died of tooth decay. *Ta-ra-ra Boom-de-ay!*
   37. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 16, 2017 at 08:01 AM (#5456202)
Allie Reynolds was the ace on a team that won five straight World Series. In those five Series, he went 6 and 2 with 2 complete game shutouts, 1 10 inning 2 to 1 win, and an overall 2.45 ERA. Considering that this was the greatest short term team accomplishment in baseball history, and considering Reynolds' key part in that streak, there's no way in the world that he isn't deserving of a Yankee Stadium plaque, regardless of his WAR or WAA. This is an award given by the Yankees, not by the Hall of Fame or the Hall of Merit.

Hey lets be serious, it wasn't Allie Reynolds and a bunch of other guys that won those 5 WS. You had Joe Dimaggio, Mickey Mantle, Yogi Berra, Phil Rizzuto, Eddie Lopat, Whitey Ford, Vic Raschi, Hank Bauer, Gene Woodling, Gil Mcdougall & Tommy Heinrich on those teams. Any pitcher would be lucky to pitch on those teams.


FTR the Yanks won those titles from 1949 through 1953.

Dimaggio was gone by 1952, and was a shadow of himself in 1951.

Mantle was a part time rookie in 1951, and was a key part of only those last two teams.

Berra and Rizzuto were there for all 5 years, the only two full time position players you can say that about.

Lopat and Raschi were there for the duration, and I'd say that they should also be getting plaques next to Reynolds. Collectively they were the most important cog in that championship run.** And it's true that in those 5 World Series, Raschi was even better than Reynolds, which is saying quite a lot, considering both Allie's WS record and the quality of the NL opposition in 4 of those 5 years.

Ford came up in mid-1950 and missed the next two seasons while he was in the military.

Henrich became a part time player in 1950, and retired at the end of that season.

McDougald didn't come up until 1951.

Bauer and Woodling were platooned, but were very important parts of those teams.

The overall point about the plaques is that they're not exclusively based on individual statistics, but on a combination of factors: Stats, rings, and remembered contributions to championships. To those you can add chronological distance: The more distant the memories, the more compelling the narrative becomes. And trust me, the narrative of those championship teams could be summed up by this: A patchwork team of fading stars, upcoming greats and platooned position players, anchored by a Big Three rotation that was the flywheel of consistency throughout that run. That may not be the way that sabermetricians would evaluate those teams in hindsight, but that was the way they were viewed at the time.

You can add the Cleveland connection factor for Reynolds if you want, but my only response to that is the one I made above: Give plaques to Raschi and Lopat and put them next to Allie's.

** You should read Sol Gittleman's Reynolds, Raschi and Lopat: New York's Big Three and Great Yankee Dynasty of 1949-1953. Since you likely weren't around then, it'll fill you in on the details.

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