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Wednesday, April 18, 2012

Stanley: If you want to understand why Americans love their country so, go to a baseball game

A regular Ruggles of Red White and Blue Gap.

I went to my first ever baseball game on Friday night. I didn’t think I’d enjoy it. It seems too similar to cricket, a game so long and boring that it feels like training for life in a nursing home.

But I was pleasantly surprised. Baseball’s a fast moving battle of nerves. When it comes down to three “balls” and two “strikes,” the guy at the bat has the world on his shoulders. If he takes another strike, his head hangs low. If he knocks it out of the park, he stands among the gods. The rules are simple and any confusion is cleared up by more beer. After two hours, I graduated from total novice to seasoned pro – shouting, “You could see the ball better if you got a haircut, hippie!” and “Hit it, don’t swat it, Zimmerman!” [That Zimmerman really bugged me. His whole technique seemed to rely on the pitcher not being able to throw. Is the man allergic to running?]

...Another, more stark, reminder of that truth is the role that military pageantry plays at a baseball game. At the start of the contest, the CIA honour guard trooped the colours and we were all invited to stand and applaud the folks serving in the US military. But nothing prepared me for the moving rendition of The Star-Spangled Banner, as sung by a female soldier in combat fatigues. The stadium stood proudly – hats clasped to chests – as she powerfully, beautifully sang the national anthem. “Does that Star-Spangled Banner yet wave/ O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave?” It sure does.

In contrast, American patriotism is sharper and more certain – and more fixedly about ideas. Its promise is individual freedom. But that freedom is guaranteed – just like victory in a baseball game – by thinking and acting as a team or a nation. One of the reasons why civil society works in the US slightly better than it does in Britain is that they understand the balance of rights and responsibilities between the individual and the group. Without the security of a welfare state, Americans are acculturated to risk and sacrifice, and so (ironically) they can be a little more charitable than us. They are certainly more free.

After the game we moved to a bar and got chatting with some young marines, who were talking excitedly about the fact that they are going to present the flag at one of the ballgames next week. After that, they will fly off to war. We are lucky to share the world with a nation that produces men like these.

Repoz Posted: April 18, 2012 at 02:23 PM | 773 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   201. Blastin Posted: April 20, 2012 at 01:15 PM (#4111389)
In response to myself, I've found that one of the best ways to get people curious and happy about meeting me was to say that I was from California, rather than America. Everyone on Earth knows what California is, and that it has movie stars, beach babes and surfing. It's a good way to trigger positive images and associations in the mind of the foreigner.


Works for NYC too, though obviously with slightly different associations. Positive ones though.

Edit: Coke to shooty.
   202. Shooty is in the Trust Tree Posted: April 20, 2012 at 01:19 PM (#4111395)
I stepped onto the wall thinking "OMG Great Wall of China" and two vendors show up and immediately go "OBAMA OBAMA." Being used to this by this point, I smiled (note: they didn't actually think I was him or whatever, that's just their frame of reference for folks like me). They asked for a picture (or, more accurately, sort of wrestled me into one; I'm not complaining, it was pretty funny) and then gave me 2 free beers.

I'm just thankful no one ever pointed at me and started screaming Bush! Bush!

no bathrooms or trash cans on the Great Wall.

A thousand miles of wall isn't enough for you to piss on?
   203. Blastin Posted: April 20, 2012 at 01:23 PM (#4111400)
I'm just thankful no one ever pointed at me and started screaming Bush! Bush!


A lot of East Asians (or, definitely Koreans) call him "Georgie Bushie" (different rules in their language) which I think is funny. I think of a little kid or a squirrel.
   204. Blastin Posted: April 20, 2012 at 01:23 PM (#4111403)
A thousand miles of wall isn't enough for you to piss on?


I was with a group of women I was hoping would not see me as a boor.
   205. Shooty is in the Trust Tree Posted: April 20, 2012 at 01:29 PM (#4111408)
I was with a group of women I was hoping would not see me as a boor.

I was just kidding. Pissing on landmarks can get you in trouble.
   206. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: April 20, 2012 at 01:32 PM (#4111417)
A thousand miles of wall isn't enough for you to piss on?

When I was there a few years ago, there were several nooks on the wall itself that had pretty clearly become informal pissoirs.
I mean, I suppose it's possible that the stone they used for those spots just happened to be wet and dark and terrible-smelling.
But probably not.
   207. Shooty is in the Trust Tree Posted: April 20, 2012 at 01:34 PM (#4111418)
Is traveling in China relatively easy if you don't speak the language? It's really a place I need to visit.
   208. Blastin Posted: April 20, 2012 at 01:35 PM (#4111420)
Easy in the cities, harder in the countryside.

(I don't speak it either.)
   209. Rickey Fredonia Fudge Duckery Precious Twiddle Posted: April 20, 2012 at 01:54 PM (#4111446)
I only speak countryside.
   210. PreservedFish Posted: April 20, 2012 at 01:56 PM (#4111447)
China is also high on my list. I spent 24 hours in Hong Kong, and it was like visiting the ####### future. At the airport, they take the temperature of every disembarking passenger! Totally awesome.
   211. Flynn Posted: April 20, 2012 at 02:10 PM (#4111466)
I've lived in the UK for almost five years now and I can count the incidents of anti-Americanism on one hand. I'm sure it helps that I'm left-wing, from San Francisco (a city people know about), and I live in a city with people from all over the world. But even when I'm in small towns or other parts of Europe, people are much happier to ask me where they should visit, what I think about movie X or TV show Y, or how baseball is played than to interrogate me about my feelings about the war in Iraq and Guantanamo Bay. People are almost unfailingly very good about separating the government from the people, as they are considerably more knowledgeable about America, its government and its people than Americans are about Europeans.

I hear all these stories of people saying awful things to Americans and I am left with a suspicion people are doing something wrong and not mentioning it. Even people who think Americans are dumb will admit they're usually pretty friendly, and Americans have a good reputation as travellers in Europe, unlike the Brits.
   212. Flynn Posted: April 20, 2012 at 02:19 PM (#4111479)
Wales is amazing. I also have Welsh ancestry, but my name pretty much requires me to strongly identify with Ireland. I enjoy Ireland, but Wales is Ireland but 30% cheaper and without sentimental Americans. It's a great country.

Also, as a huge rugby fan and player, the first time I went to Wales was like rugby heaven. It's the national game there!
   213. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 20, 2012 at 02:21 PM (#4111487)
I've travelled extensively in Europe (Italy and France many times, Poland, Austria, Hungary, Spain, Portugal, Czech rep., Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, UK and Germany), from 1986 to 2011, and have never felt any anti-American sentiments.

If anyone does say anything to you, just say "Next time we'll let the Germans keep you" ;-)
   214. ASmitty Posted: April 20, 2012 at 02:26 PM (#4111493)
When I was in Russia, people were falling all over themselves to talk with me about American politics and my impressions of the Russian people. No hostility at all.

As an aside, some friends and I were eating a at a TGIFridays in Moscow (seriously), when a group of college aged girls approached us and started chatting us up. They were English majors and were peppering us with all sorts of questions. At one point, one of the girls asked us what stereotypes Americans have concerning Russians. Being good lawyers, we artfully dodged the question and asked them what what stereotypes Russians had about Americans. They paused for a second, and then answered:

"You smile a lot and eat cheeseburgers."

We cracked up. That's not even stereotype; it's totally true.
   215. Dale Sams Posted: April 20, 2012 at 02:35 PM (#4111502)
and my impressions of the Russian people


Did you let on that most Americans still have this impression of Russians as "Commie/hated/despotic bastards"?

As a related note, I remember when the Soviet wrestling team visited my college and the announcer said "...and let's give a big welcome to the Russian Wrestling team!"
   216. Dale Sams Posted: April 20, 2012 at 02:39 PM (#4111507)
People are almost unfailingly very good about separating the government from the people


Interesting. When my friend lived in Ireland, he was always immediatly interrogated over whether he was Proto or a Catholic. When he said "American", the response was often "Ahhh let me buy you a drink!"

Works for NYC too, though obviously with slightly different associations. Positive ones though.


####..tell AMERICANS you're from Oklahoma and a good number will think you go to work on a horse and that the Indians live in teepees.
   217. Swedish Chef Posted: April 20, 2012 at 02:46 PM (#4111528)
As a related note, I remember when the Soviet wrestling team visited my college and the announcer said "...and let's give a big welcome to the Russian Wrestling team!"

The Estonian part of me finds both of those names offensive. To be politically correct he would have to go with "The Soviet Russian Wrestling team plus participants from various occupied territories only on this trip to buy contraband jeans and earn a small fortune."
   218. Rickey Fredonia Fudge Duckery Precious Twiddle Posted: April 20, 2012 at 02:49 PM (#4111530)
I've travelled extensively in Europe (Italy and France many times, Poland, Austria, Hungary, Spain, Portugal, Czech rep., Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, UK and Germany), from 1986 to 2011, and have never felt any anti-American sentiments.


Ur doin it rong.
   219. Rickey Fredonia Fudge Duckery Precious Twiddle Posted: April 20, 2012 at 02:57 PM (#4111538)
I've lived in the UK for almost five years now and I can count the incidents of anti-Americanism on one hand.


I've never gotten real anti-Amero incidents either. It's more like the feeling I assume Woody Allen has whenever he's out with Soon-Yi Previn. He knows it's there. They know it's there. He knows they know it's there. That it goes unspoken is just awkward courtesy, really.
   220. PreservedFish Posted: April 20, 2012 at 02:59 PM (#4111541)
As an aside, some friends and I were eating a at a TGIFridays in Moscow (seriously),


I had an absurdly satisfying meal at an Outback Steakhouse in Bangkok. For 6 weeks I'd had nothing but beautiful, healthy, fresh and delicious Thai and Lao food. So naturally I was craving some fatty Western goodness. I got a plate of french fries that was covered in bacon, cheese, ranch, and it was unbelievably good. The TV had on a replay of the big 2005 Liverpool comeback against AC Milan.
   221. Rants Mulliniks (formerly Cold Prosimian) Posted: April 20, 2012 at 03:00 PM (#4111543)
Regrettably, I have only ben to Europe once, and that was Spain. I speak conversational French and a bit of Spanish, which came in handy. It would have been very hard to communicate outside of the main tourist centres if I'd been English only.

The first night I was there I got into a somewhat heated discussion with two guys at a cafe. One was a native university student named Juan, and the other guy was 50-ish who spoke no English but was fluent in French. The conversation was in all three languages. I can't remember what set it off, but the older guy said something unintelligible (to me) in French and stormed off. Then Juan took us to a tapas bar and got himself kicked out for being drunk and disorderly.
   222. PreservedFish Posted: April 20, 2012 at 03:26 PM (#4111574)
It would have been very hard to communicate outside of the main tourist centres if I'd been English only.


Eh. You always get by. I got by in Burma (where it is (was?) even illegal to play music`with English lyrics), others have gotten by in even crazier places.
   223. I am going to be Frank Posted: April 20, 2012 at 03:29 PM (#4111577)
Try having to tell people that you're from New Jersey and then inevitably saying, yes the same as "Jersey Shore."
   224. Rickey Fredonia Fudge Duckery Precious Twiddle Posted: April 20, 2012 at 03:35 PM (#4111582)
The first night I was there I got into a somewhat heated discussion with two guys at a cafe. One was a native university student named Juan, and the other guy was 50-ish who spoke no English but was fluent in French. The conversation was in all three languages. I can't remember what set it off, but the older guy said something unintelligible (to me) in French and stormed off. Then Juan took us to a tapas bar and got himself kicked out for being drunk and disorderly.


I was in Stockholm for three months, and the PM of the client team was an older Englishman from the midlands. He wasn't outspoken, but after a few pub conversations it was pretty clear that he was a pretty solid Tory with a bit of a conservative Anglican streak to him. Another guy from our teams was 28 and from Kansas City. He was a GOP/Libertarian tweener who imagined himself clever enough to spar with the men at the table. We were talking about some constitutional something or other one night and the Brit looks at the guy from KC and says "Mate, you need to stop now, because Sam's about to have your lunch. He's been setting you up for the past two hours."

It was awesome. KC had to buy the last three rounds.
   225. Greg (U)K Posted: April 20, 2012 at 03:38 PM (#4111584)
Try having to tell people that you're from New Jersey and then inevitably saying, yes the same as "Jersey Shore."

The flip side of this is the first time I was in Europe I met a gaggle of girls who all proudly claimed to be "Essex Girls". I had no idea what that meant at the time.

It's probably just because they're being polite and flattering but when I'm traveling people always act relieved when I say I'm Canadian, not American. I think people have their stereotypes, but are open-minded when they actually meet people and give them the benefit of the doubt.

Now if you want instant animosity based on where you're from, travel to any part of Canada and tell people you're from Toronto...
   226. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: April 20, 2012 at 03:50 PM (#4111602)
Conversely, years ago my parents were hosting four Russians, including their Maestro, which were in their small town performing (a relatively large orchestra, where the performers lodged with the locals as there were not enough hotels in this town and budget concerns) and my Mom had the red carpet of food out for this crew, I'm talking plenty of food (fruits, vegetables, cheeses, meat, etc.). She said they reacted as if they had not eaten in weeks, they were elbowing each other out of the way and grabbing as much as they can, as if my Mom was going to take it away in five minutes. This was beyond being ravenous though, she said all the meals during this stay were similar, and their neighbors had similar experiences related to the dining portion of the Russian visitors.
   227. ASmitty Posted: April 20, 2012 at 03:51 PM (#4111603)
who all proudly claimed to be "Essex Girls". I had no idea what that meant at the time.


What DOES that mean?
   228. Flynn Posted: April 20, 2012 at 04:00 PM (#4111622)
Essex is sort of like the British New Jersey, with pretty similar tastes in clothing.
   229. ASmitty Posted: April 20, 2012 at 04:06 PM (#4111633)
So you're saying my decision not to accept the advances of a "proper Essex girl" was a wise one?
   230. Hysterical & Useless Posted: April 20, 2012 at 04:09 PM (#4111639)
Mrs Useless & I have been to Ireland a half-dozen times and no one has ever asked us about our religion.

We've been to Scotland once, went to a karaoke night in a pub in Glasgow. Pretty much everybody who sang chose country & western.

Haven't been to Wales yet, but it's on the short list; is it really cheaper than Ireland? We've found the UK pretty pricey (not that Erin is cheap, even in the off-season).

   231. Rickey Fredonia Fudge Duckery Precious Twiddle Posted: April 20, 2012 at 04:09 PM (#4111640)
So you're saying my decision not to accept the advances of a "proper Essex girl" was a wise one?


What's English for "Snooki?"
   232. Flynn Posted: April 20, 2012 at 04:13 PM (#4111647)
Haven't been to Wales yet, but it's on the short list; is it really cheaper than Ireland? We've found the UK pretty pricey (not that Erin is cheap, even in the off-season).


Oh, God yes.

Ireland is the most expensive country I've ever been to, and I live in London, for chrissakes. Even in the boonies, I was paying 50p more a pint than I was in London at the time. By comparison, a beer in Wales was 50p cheaper.
   233. Rickey Fredonia Fudge Duckery Precious Twiddle Posted: April 20, 2012 at 04:19 PM (#4111659)
If you're going to vacation in the island nations of the North Atlantic, I'd go with Wales and Iceland.
   234. Swedish Chef Posted: April 20, 2012 at 04:21 PM (#4111661)
Ireland is the most expensive country I've ever been to

Don't ever go to Norway. $15 for a beer...
   235. Flynn Posted: April 20, 2012 at 04:30 PM (#4111673)
How much is it for a beer in Sweden? My wife is keen on going to Stockholm, and I wouldn't mind myself (especially if the SEL is in season) but the priciness is a hurdle.
   236. PreservedFish Posted: April 20, 2012 at 04:31 PM (#4111674)
Ireland is the most expensive country I've ever been to

Don't ever go to Norway. $15 for a beer...


I ended up eating a lot of execrable pizza, because it was the only dinner-sized portion I could find that cost less than $35.
   237. Rickey Fredonia Fudge Duckery Precious Twiddle Posted: April 20, 2012 at 04:33 PM (#4111678)
How much is it for a beer in Sweden


Not cheap. Probably in line with Norway. Scandanavia isn't cheap, period. And Stockholm is expensive itself.

With that said, Stockholm in the spring and midsummer is fantastic.

(EDIT: Notably, it's even more fantastic on an expense account.)
   238. Swedish Chef Posted: April 20, 2012 at 04:44 PM (#4111693)
Probably in line with Norway.

It is way cheaper than Norway, you can get a beer for less than 10 dollars in all but the fanciest places here, but alcohol is taxed heavily of course. Food is expensive compared to the states, but you should see all the manic Norwegians loading their cars at the border shops.

And if you get to Malmö, and don't mind jostling with poor people, you can eat out real cheap.

In Denmark alcohol is cheap, they are ludicrously liberal compared to the other Nordic nations, you can drink strong liquor to lunch on a working day there with no one batting an eyelid.
   239. JPWF1313 Posted: April 20, 2012 at 06:08 PM (#4111800)
and my impressions of the Russian people

Did you let on that most Americans still have this impression of Russians as "Commie/hated/despotic bastards"?


I used to live in a neighborhood which had a couple of Russian immigrants, my observations: they can drink A LOT
plus this one middle aged dude would walk around the block on 30 degree winter days in shorts and tee shirt...

Limited sample size, but yeah, these guys were really nailing the stereotypes...
   240. vortex of dissipation Posted: April 20, 2012 at 06:23 PM (#4111811)
I find UK (or more specifically English) patriotism endlessly fascinating. It's probably due to the demographic I predominantly associate with, but in my experience the way the English feel about their country falls into two, sometimes over-lapping groups

1) embarassment over being a bit of a bully to the rest of the world for a couple centuries.
2) embarassment over their current status as secondary power after being a dominant one for so long. In a sense, being on the wrong side of history.


Hmmn...

I don't actually live in England, but I was born there. The way I feel about the country is pretty simple. I think it's the greatest country that has ever existed, and has done more good for the human race than any other country. I don't dislike any other country, and I certainly see where the people you described above are coming from, but I think the good outways the bad by a huge factor. I'm more proud of my country than anything else in my life. I fact, it's the only thing in my life that gives me any self of pride...
   241. PreservedFish Posted: April 20, 2012 at 08:16 PM (#4111877)
I fact, it's the only thing in my life that gives me any self of pride...


That's sad.
   242. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 20, 2012 at 08:29 PM (#4111887)
Paris is remarkably affordable if you have a kitchenette of some kind, and can subsist to a large degree on bread, wine, and cheese. Also, if you do your eating out for lunch, even fabulous restaurants tend to have great formules and menus at an affordable price.
   243. Jolly Old St. Nick Done Jumped The Ship Posted: April 20, 2012 at 10:35 PM (#4111970)
What a difference the passage of time can make. It doesn't seem that long ago that the U.S. dollar ruled the world, and to an American tourist the entire other side of the Atlantic was like Mississippi in terms of cost of living. I had a relative in a small Norwegian town called Molde who paid the equivalent of $10,000 American dollars for a large modern house with cathedral ceilings, on a lakefront lot overlooking a mountain view on the other side. I'm sure you couldn't buy that house for half a million today.
   244. PreservedFish Posted: April 20, 2012 at 11:00 PM (#4111984)
It doesn't seem that long ago that the U.S. dollar ruled the world, and to an American tourist the entire other side of the Atlantic was like Mississippi in terms of cost of living.


I like reading about Hemingway and the other Americans in Paris in the 20s. One of the consistent themes is how cheap everything was - a couple hundred bucks mooched off the parents back home could keep these kids afloat for months, free to pursue their silly careers as surrealist poets and such.
   245. I am going to be Frank Posted: April 20, 2012 at 11:17 PM (#4111988)
I could eat the pre-made sandwiches in Paris and probably all of France for every meal. The bread was so good and even there would be one "layer" of whatever cured meat on it but it tasted so good. If I recall it was usually only 3 or 4 euros.
   246. zenbitz Posted: April 20, 2012 at 11:30 PM (#4111990)
Doesn't devaluing the US Dollar help us with our import/export imbalance and stems the flow of job outsourcing overseas?
   247. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: April 21, 2012 at 04:16 AM (#4112027)
I don't actually live in England, but I was born there. The way I feel about the country is pretty simple. I think it's the greatest country that has ever existed, and has done more good for the human race than any other country. I don't dislike any other country, and I certainly see where the people you described above are coming from, but I think the good outways the bad by a huge factor. I'm more proud of my country than anything else in my life. I fact, it's the only thing in my life that gives me any self of pride...


Interesting; I'm British, living in London, and I feel quite the opposite. The pervasive sense of decline among Brits (the opposite of the American sentiment "our best days are ahead") feels to me like some kind of invisible drag on the country's spirits and its potential. There are many good traits that the British embody, but plenty of negative ones too, and I don't see any way in which I am more proud of being British than I am of having lived and studied in the US, or lived and worked in the Netherlands. Both of which were choices, of course, rather than accidents of birth.

Too often I think the British are proud of the wrong things? Our history! No, you inherited that. Our royal family! No, it's silly. Our sporting teams! Oh, please. The actual positive values that are demonstrated by the population day-in, day-our seem to get lip-service and no more.
   248. Flynn Posted: April 21, 2012 at 06:37 AM (#4112034)
The white people problems websites would have a field day with the Brits. Moan about this, moan about that. The train was five minutes late - moan. I have to wait an extra four days to see my doctor for no charge - moan.

I love a good moan myself, and Britain has problems, some of which are pervasive. But occasionally you do have to remind the Brits they don't live in the Congo or Sierra Leone, and that sense of decline (probably a symptom of not having an empire) drags the chances of actually fixing the country's problems. There's less urgency to fix problems because it's just more proof of how Britain is crap, and some people would rather just emigrate than deal with it.

Plus patriotism and jingoism are often conflated in the UK, especially as England turns into a sneering, obnoxious place when there's a major football tournament on. England must have more people who root against their own country than anywhere else in the world.
   249. Jolly Old St. Nick Done Jumped The Ship Posted: April 21, 2012 at 07:04 AM (#4112037)
It doesn't seem that long ago that the U.S. dollar ruled the world, and to an American tourist the entire other side of the Atlantic was like Mississippi in terms of cost of living.

I like reading about Hemingway and the other Americans in Paris in the 20s. One of the consistent themes is how cheap everything was - a couple hundred bucks mooched off the parents back home could keep these kids afloat for months, free to pursue their silly careers as surrealist poets and such.


And it isn't just Europe, but here, too. In 1969 my GF and I spent a full month traveling between DC and Berkeley, beginning by driving up to Boston and Montreal, and then slowly meandering through Chicago, Madison, Yellowstone and Seattle before driving down to Berkeley. We started out with exactly $500 (about $3125 today), ate nearly every meal in non-fast food restaurants, went to ballgames in every ML city (Jarry Park was the highlight), and stayed in motels or hotels every night. No camping out or skipping meals. I've love to see two people do that now on $100 a day, given the price of gas and lodging.
   250. Swedish Chef Posted: April 21, 2012 at 07:13 AM (#4112038)
England must have more people who root against their own country than anywhere else in the world.

Possibly excepting Spain, but I guess you would have to include Scotland to make a fair comparison there.

It always amuses me when Swedish sports columnists writes about English boosterism and it's just carbon copies of English whining about the same because they always turn to total mush every time a Swedish biathlete* gets a medal. And of course, every skier ever that beat a Swede were doped to the gills.

*) Sweden's favorite sports:
3) Everything a Swede is good at
2) Everything a Swede is good at involving skiing
1) Football

   251. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: April 21, 2012 at 10:00 AM (#4112072)
Plus patriotism and jingoism are often conflated in the UK, especially as England turns into a sneering, obnoxious place when there's a major football tournament on. England must have more people who root against their own country than anywhere else in the world.


Couldn't agree more. The jingoism I see at times seems like it is so out of character for what I perceive to be 'British character' that it's surreal; much like the British relationship with race issue, it makes me feel that some really ugly things are bubbling beneath the surface in places. (Watching a documentary, 'The 70s', on BBC2, reminded me of the "If they're black, send them back" repatriation marches in London in that era.)

Seeing the local Portuguese deli with its windows smashed in after Portugal beat England in the 2004 Euro Championship was a lowlight. Again, an argument for cricket (or rugby) over football as the truly archetypical British sport.
   252. Greg (U)K Posted: April 21, 2012 at 11:42 AM (#4112118)
I've love to see two people do that now on $100 a day, given the price of gas and lodging.

I doubt they'll be living that cheaply, but I'm about to go to a friend's wedding in Calgary this summer. The honeymoon is a several month-long drive around Canada and the US (part of which I'm tagging along for!). As I say, I don't know their budget, but considering they've essentially been living their lives the past three years traveling from one place to another, working at hostels or camp-grounds until they have the money to go to the next place, I don't imagine they are spending a ton of money.

EDIT: Also second the love of bread in France. I had bread and cheese everyday and I don't think I've ever enjoyed food as much as those couple weeks.
   253. McCoy Wilfong for Money Posted: April 21, 2012 at 11:58 AM (#4112121)
What is East Budleigh, Devon like? My cousin is getting married there in July and I'm wondering if I should make the trip.
   254. PreservedFish Posted: April 21, 2012 at 12:12 PM (#4112129)
EDIT: Also second the love of bread in France. I had bread and cheese everyday and I don't think I've ever enjoyed food as much as those couple weeks.


One of the revelations I had on my long honeymoon in France was the existence of Carrefour and LeClerc, ubiquitous hypermarkets that are at least as large as the biggest Walmart you've ever seen. They have everything a Walmart does - dirt cheap pharmacies, the cheapest gas prices in the country - but they are indelibly and wonderfully FRENCH. The cheese counter is out of this world (and I used to be a cheesemonger, so I know my cheese). A huge selection of legitimately world class cheeses at the lowest prices I've ever seen in my life. (And an even huger selection of OK cheeses, the level of quality you'd find at Trader Joe's.) One I went to had a dozen different types of baguette. The wine aisles were endless - unfortunately I don't know my wine well enough to know what type of bargains were contained therein. And then of course you have the Toulouse sausages, the jars of cassoulet, pates, confits, etc.

On another trip to France I stayed in a hostel in a small Pyrenees town. In the evening there was only one place open to eat at, the local Kwik-E-Mart equivalent. I was amazed to find that in the very tiny fresh food fridge (where the American equivalent would have eggs and ... breakfast burritos?) they had duck breasts.
   255. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: April 21, 2012 at 12:28 PM (#4112139)
What is East Budleigh, Devon like? My cousin is getting married there in July and I'm wondering if I should make the trip.


I've not been to the town in question, but Devon is very nice. Very pleasant countryside, nice beaches, and some decent food. You're also in a great spot to explore, via day-trip, some great areas of the country, including the Cotswolds (where I'm from), Bristol, Cardiff, and so on.

The problem that you might have is a) it'll be very expensive in that part of the country, because b) it'll be packed with holidaying Brits, with school out. July is also approximately Olympic rush hour, during which prices will be jacked up further, especially for flights. If money's not an issue, I think it's a fine idea for a trip, but July 2012 might prove to be unfortunate timing.

EDIT - in Devon, you'll probably also want to rent a car. I know Americans think nothing of this, but it tends to be more expensive in the UK, and roads in the south-west of England are usually small and hard to navigate, even after you get over the left-hand side thing. Some parts of the country you could make do with public transport with taxis for a short trip; Devon's unlikely to be one of them. Just a thought.
   256. Jolly Old St. Nick Done Jumped The Ship Posted: April 21, 2012 at 12:41 PM (#4112150)
I've love to see two people do that now on $100 a day, given the price of gas and lodging.

I doubt they'll be living that cheaply, but I'm about to go to a friend's wedding in Calgary this summer. The honeymoon is a several month-long drive around Canada and the US (part of which I'm tagging along for!). As I say, I don't know their budget, but considering they've essentially been living their lives the past three years traveling from one place to another, working at hostels or camp-grounds until they have the money to go to the next place, I don't imagine they are spending a ton of money.


Probably not, but then we weren't consciously trying not to spend, and we stayed in hotels or motels every night. Of course back then that meant as little as $4.00 a night ($25.00 today) for a clean hotel on a main street or a cabin on an old U.S. highway, with gas ranging from about $1.69 (in Berkeley, believe it or not) to $2.25 a gallon (in Chicago) in today's dollars. That's what you can't duplicate in 2012.
   257. McCoy Wilfong for Money Posted: April 21, 2012 at 12:45 PM (#4112152)
If money's not an issue, I think it's a fine idea for a trip, but July 2012 might prove to be unfortunate timing.

We've all said this to them as well so I don't really know if we'll be able to make it. It could very well be a $5,000 expense or more.
   258. McCoy Wilfong for Money Posted: April 21, 2012 at 12:53 PM (#4112156)
That's what you can't duplicate in 2012.

Because standards have changed. Every room has AC now. Every room has a color TV with cable. Most have wi-fi or internet access. So on and so on. When I lived in Kenosha/Racine they still had the bungalow motels of the 50's and 60's and that is basically where the crackheads and one night stands stayed. You could rent a bungalow for $100 a week but that isn't what most people nowadays think of when you talk about hotel/motels/inns. Traveling cross country nowadays is a completely different experience (in terms of goods needed, wanted, and have) compared to a cross country trip 40 years ago.

Gas is more expensive but cars are more efficient thus we can go further on a gallong of gas. I don't know what the MPG were in 1969 but according the government cars were at 13.5 MPG in 1975. In 2010 the average new car apparently is getting over 30 MPG.
   259. Greg (U)K Posted: April 21, 2012 at 01:02 PM (#4112161)
I'm actually flying to Toronto and back out of Heathrow in July. I was surprised at how cheap it was. Actually cheaper then when I flew home at Christmas, or when I moved here a couple Septembers ago. I am, however, expecting Heathrow to be a madhouse on my August 1st flight.
   260. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 21, 2012 at 01:06 PM (#4112163)
My touchstone for what a road trip 50 or 50 years ago was like is Lolita.
   261. BourbonSamurai, vassal of the Harpsburg Empire Posted: April 21, 2012 at 01:17 PM (#4112171)

I had an absurdly satisfying meal at an Outback Steakhouse in Bangkok. For 6 weeks I'd had nothing but beautiful, healthy, fresh and delicious Thai and Lao food. So naturally I was craving some fatty Western goodness. I got a plate of french fries that was covered in bacon, cheese, ranch, and it was unbelievably good. The TV had on a replay of the big 2005 Liverpool comeback against AC Milan.


There is a bar I go to a lot in Hanoi that plays baseball and can do a creditable hamburger. Not even good, really, just creditable. But after awhile overseas you just desperately want it.

Overseas, I've gotten a ton more #### for being American in Europe than in Asia. Asians are mostly excited about it, especially in Vietnam. I've had many weird experiences talking to Vietnamese with cockney accents* about how America is the best country in the world.

*because that's who taught them english
   262. PreservedFish Posted: April 21, 2012 at 01:41 PM (#4112190)
Overseas, I've gotten a ton more #### for being American in Europe than in Asia. Asians are mostly excited about it


Yeah, as I said, people in Asia mostly associate America with things that they think are awesome.

Americans are also more exotic and thus exciting. I went to a nightclub in Udon Thani, Thailand, where there was a band that played nothing but American alternative music (Nirvana, RHCP, etc). After the show the band wanted nothing more than to hang out with the white faces that had been dancing in front of the stage. I had a million conversations with people that didn't really speak any English that mostly consisted of exchanges like:

Thai teenager: Ehspidelmanu.
Me: Ehspidelmanu?
Thai: Ehspidelmanu!
Me: Spiderman?
Thai: Yesss, Ehspidelmanu!!!

Such an interchange seemed to be unspeakably exciting.
   263. BourbonSamurai, vassal of the Harpsburg Empire Posted: April 21, 2012 at 02:11 PM (#4112215)
I get a lot of strange stares in Asia which were finally explained to me in Indonesia.

We had an experience in Manado where I had to for a meeting (taking me six ####### flights to get to) where a buddy and I went out to basically the one club in town on a thursday night to listen to the ridiculous cover band. It was empty, we had a bunch of drinks, had a great time, were proclaimed everybody's best friend forever, etc.

The next day, we decide to roundup people up and go back. My friend goes first with a big group, and they ask him for a huge cover fee. He speaks Bahasa, and says, "hey, we were here last night, we were best buds, why are you charging me the boole price?"

They say, "No, we've never seen you before, stop trying to scam us, pay the cover."

He insists, but no dice, and since it's the only game in town he decides to stay.

I show up an hour later, the guy at the door is thrilled to see me, no cover, waves me in.

I go find my friend, say I had no trouble, and we wonder why they remember me and not him, especially since he speaks Bahasa.

About five seconds later the staff comes over to him and basically says, "Oh my god, we're so sorry, you were here last night. All white people with black hair look the same to us, but your friend Redbeard we recognize. He's the only person with a red beard we've ever seen."
   264. Jolly Old St. Nick Done Jumped The Ship Posted: April 21, 2012 at 02:39 PM (#4112243)
That's what you can't duplicate in 2012.

Because standards have changed. Every room has AC now. Every room has a color TV with cable. Most have wi-fi or internet access. So on and so on. When I lived in Kenosha/Racine they still had the bungalow motels of the 50's and 60's and that is basically where the crackheads and one night stands stayed. You could rent a bungalow for $100 a week but that isn't what most people nowadays think of when you talk about hotel/motels/inns. Traveling cross country nowadays is a completely different experience (in terms of goods needed, wanted, and have) compared to a cross country trip 40 years ago.


Tell me something that I don't know. But what that means is that while people who can afford it can travel in better minimal style today than they could in 1969, people who can't afford that style are out of luck, when the choice is between springing for 21st century "necessities" like wi-fi and cable TV on the one hand, and looking out for crackheads on the other. It's simply one more example of the sort of income polarization that's occurred over the past 40+ years.

Gas is more expensive but cars are more efficient thus we can go further on a gallong of gas. I don't know what the MPG were in 1969 but according the government cars were at 13.5 MPG in 1975. In 2010 the average new car apparently is getting over 30 MPG.

Since our trip was made with a 1969 VW beetle that got 32 MPG on the highway, we didn't have to worry about what some ####### muscle car was getting. And there were millions of such "economy cars" on the roads even then.

The bottom line is that if you want to compare apples and oranges while forcing everyone to buy oranges, then of course you can rationalize away the fact that like so many other things today, the cutoff point for being able to afford cross-country trips has been pushed farther and farther up the income scale. But what if you don't care about wi-fi or fancy mattresses, but you don't want crackheads in your next room? What if all you need is a clean room and a clean bed?** Where's the affordable alternative today that doesn't mean a youth hostel or some sort of variant of that?

**BTW contrary to your apparent belief, a/c was standard in every motel or hotel we stayed in.
   265. CFBF Hates Hyphens Posted: April 21, 2012 at 02:47 PM (#4112252)
I spent a month in Florence two years ago, my first real overseas experience. The city is every bit as beautiful as I hoped, but damn, Tuscany in July...not pleasant.

Anyway, my first day there I walked downtown to the Duomo plaza. Stepped into a little shop to get something to drink. What do I hear over the PA system in this store that was almost quite literally resting in the shadow of the Duomo, one of the great architectural achievements in the history of western civilization?

"Fergalicious definition:
Make them boys go loco..."

It was an interesting reminder of the ubiquity of American pop culture around the world.
   266. Greg (U)K Posted: April 21, 2012 at 02:50 PM (#4112256)
It was an interesting reminder of the ubiquity of American pop culture around the world.

Ha, when I was in Florence last year (in the shadow of the Duomo as well) I came across the fellas from Jersey Shore filming at an outside cafe.

EDIT: I was there in June, though climbing up that massive hill on the other side of the river (I'm sure this is a well-known place that a more cultured person would know the name of) to get a view of the city probably gave me a clue as to what July feels like.
   267. PreservedFish Posted: April 21, 2012 at 02:55 PM (#4112257)
I spent 4 weeks traveling in India, and two different people asked me if American professional wrestlers are faking it. Apparently this is a matter of some controversy there.
   268. Swedish Chef Posted: April 21, 2012 at 02:56 PM (#4112259)
I came across the fellas from Jersey Shore filming at an outside cafe.

That rumbling noise you heard was Michelangelo spinning in his grave.
   269. CFBF Hates Hyphens Posted: April 21, 2012 at 03:04 PM (#4112263)
I was there in June, though climbing up that massive hill on the other side of the river (I'm sure this is a well-known place that a more cultured person would know the name of) to get a view of the city probably gave me a clue as to what July feels like.


I think that's San Miniato al Monte. Beautiful old (old, old, old, old) church there where I attended Mass for the first time in nearly a decade.
   270. Greg (U)K Posted: April 21, 2012 at 03:07 PM (#4112267)
Beautiful old (old, old, old, old) church

So, like, from the 50s?
   271. McCoy Wilfong for Money Posted: April 21, 2012 at 04:47 PM (#4112366)
Since our trip was made with a 1969 VW beetle that got 32 MPG on the highway, we didn't have to worry about what some ####### muscle car was getting. And there were millions of such "economy cars" on the roads even then.

So you traveled the country in a brand new car?

As for cheap rooms there are a ton of them. Stay at a Super 8 or Motel 6. For instance if you want to take I-80 across country you can stop at a Super 8 around the Moline/Davenport area of Iowa/Illinois and stay at a room for around 45.00 before taxes and such. I even found an inn for $39 a night next to the Quad City airport. According to the inflation calculator that is something like 7 to 8 dollars in 1969. You can then drive out to Denver and stay in the city or around it for 50 to 60 dollars a night which is around 8 to 9 bucks back in 1969. According to Orbitz there are also several options below $40 as well around Denver in the summer time. If you want cheap there are a ton of options.
   272. McCoy Wilfong for Money Posted: April 21, 2012 at 05:01 PM (#4112378)
By the way according to VW the 1969 Beetle got up to 27 mpg.
   273. Greg (U)K Posted: April 21, 2012 at 05:13 PM (#4112386)
The place I usually stay in London starts at around £8 a night. Of course that's a shared room hostel. But generally when I travel its £20-30 a night for a room, some of them with swimming pools and hot-tubs (though sadly not directly in my room).
   274. Jolly Old St. Nick Done Jumped The Ship Posted: April 21, 2012 at 05:54 PM (#4112418)
Since our trip was made with a 1969 VW beetle that got 32 MPG on the highway, we didn't have to worry about what some ####### muscle car was getting. And there were millions of such "economy cars" on the roads even then.

So you traveled the country in a brand new car?


Bought at the end of 1968. The brochure said it got 32 on the highway, whether or not it actually did or not. I do know we could always fill the tank from near empty for less than 3 bucks, or less than 19 bucks today, and that we could almost always make it last for at least 300 miles between stops along a highway.

I will grant one definite sub-point of yours, however: In the long run I got what I paid for with that miserable Beetle. Today's cars are a far better deal in almost every respect than they were back then. The $4000 real dollar difference in price between that 69 Beetle ($13,000) and my 2006 Focus ($17,000) doesn't even begin to reflect the complete superiority of the Ford over the VW. Not that you wouldn't know that.

As for cheap rooms there are a ton of them. Stay at a Super 8 or Motel 6. For instance if you want to take I-80 across country you can stop at a Super 8 around the Moline/Davenport area of Iowa/Illinois and stay at a room for around 45.00 before taxes and such. I even found an inn for $39 a night next to the Quad City airport. According to the inflation calculator that is something like 7 to 8 dollars in 1969. You can then drive out to Denver and stay in the city or around it for 50 to 60 dollars a night which is around 8 to 9 bucks back in 1969. According to Orbitz there are also several options below $40 as well around Denver in the summer time. If you want cheap there are a ton of options.

I'm sure that if you want to plan your vacation like a military operation with a view to minimizing your lodging expenses, you might be able to come withing hailing distance of those 1969 prices. But if your idea of a vacation tends a bit more towards spontaneity and a bit less like the Romney family, the operative prices are those for walk-ups that you don't need prior research and negotiating to obtain. We found our motels by simply driving down the road we we going on and looking at the signs, not by going miles out of our way to save a few bucks. The prices we found ranged from $3 to $8 a night, with the average around $5, which is just over $31 today. Even the high range of $8 ($50 today) would be tough to find in most places tonight without a fair amount of prior research and / or bargaining, which is a hassle we didn't need to go through.

   275. PreservedFish Posted: April 21, 2012 at 06:02 PM (#4112425)
I do know we could always fill the tank from near empty for less than 3 bucks, or less than 19 bucks today...

The prices we found ranged from $3 to $8 a night, with the average around $5, which is just over $31 today.


All these stories make me wonder how reliable these inflation-adjusted amounts are. (I know nothing about the subject)
   276. Greg (U)K Posted: April 21, 2012 at 06:02 PM (#4112426)
I wonder how much the ease and cheapness of air travel has to do with it. The family or couples road trip probably holds less appeal now that you can go to Belize or the Dominican for a weekend. I wouldn't be surprised if the whole infrastructure that allowed for a spontaneous road trip is less visible. I remember my parents took us kids on such trips all the time in the late 80s/early 90s. Road-side motels seem a lot less common nowadays, though to be honest it's not like I've been keeping an eye open for them.
   277. Srul Itza Posted: April 21, 2012 at 06:10 PM (#4112431)
Nice little game between Seattle and the ChiSox.
   278. PreservedFish Posted: April 21, 2012 at 06:14 PM (#4112434)
The birth of the interstate highway system must have changed everything.

I don't love On the Road, but I do like the time capsule view it provides for the American road trip. One of the things that struck me is what a big deal mountain passes were - in shitty cars, on shitty roads, getting over a mountain range wasn't trivial. Now you just blare straight through at 80 mph, and if you're passing through one of the big Western ranges, you are only mildly inconvenienced by the trucks in the right hand lane.
   279. Greg (U)K Posted: April 21, 2012 at 06:26 PM (#4112456)
Nice little game between Seattle and the ChiSox.

Brendan Ryan didn't seem to think so.

I'm not usually one for conspiracy theories but I wonder if the home plate ump makes that kind of call (and without any help from 1B) in the 4th inning of a 6-5 game.
   280. PreservedFish Posted: April 21, 2012 at 06:27 PM (#4112463)
Nice little game between Seattle and the ChiSox.


Thank you.
   281. puck Posted: April 21, 2012 at 06:33 PM (#4112473)
Wow, who is Philip Humber.
   282. Lassus Posted: April 21, 2012 at 06:33 PM (#4112476)
My 1985 Honda CRX easily got over 40 MPH on the highway.


Wow, who is Philip Humber.

Good ####### question.
   283. Greg (U)K Posted: April 21, 2012 at 06:33 PM (#4112477)
Wow, who is Philip Humber.

The best player involved in the Johan Santana trade!
   284. Greg (U)K Posted: April 21, 2012 at 06:34 PM (#4112480)
My 1985 Honda CRX easily got over 40 MPH on the highway.

And you were still able to maintain control of your vehicle at that speed? I call balderdash!
   285. PreservedFish Posted: April 21, 2012 at 06:45 PM (#4112498)
Yeah, Humber joins the long and distressing list of former Mets to throw a no-hitter. He was a high draft pick out of Rice that was supposed to be almost major league ready with a super-plus curveball. Mets pick him and of course, poof, Tommy John surgery.
   286. Lassus Posted: April 21, 2012 at 06:45 PM (#4112499)
Oh jesus. 40 MPG, that is.


And, in the other news..... that last swing looked..... not a swing? Oh dear. Now THAT's going to be the story.

   287. McCoy Wilfong for Money Posted: April 21, 2012 at 06:47 PM (#4112502)
I'm sure that if you want to plan your vacation like a military operation with a view to minimizing your lodging expenses, you might be able to come withing hailing distance of those 1969 prices. But if your idea of a vacation tends a bit more towards spontaneity and a bit less like the Romney family, the operative prices are those for walk-ups that you don't need prior research and negotiating to obtain. We found our motels by simply driving down the road we we going on and looking at the signs, not by going miles out of our way to save a few bucks. The prices we found ranged from $3 to $8 a night, with the average around $5, which is just over $31 today. Even the high range of $8 ($50 today) would be tough to find in most places tonight without a fair amount of prior research and / or bargaining, which is a hassle we didn't need to go through.

Motel 6's and Super 8's are all over the place and especially by the highways. Plus everyone has a smartphone nowadays so you even get the added advantage of searching for a nearby cheap motel while you drive.

The brochure said it got 32 on the highway, whether or not it actually did or not.

The 1969 Beetle brochures claim 27 mpg. Checkout TheSamba.com for a trip down memory lane. 1969 VW Beetle had a 10.6 gallon fuel tank. VW claims you get 27 mpg with half payload at 3/4 top speed on level roads with standard transmission. 25 mpg with optional transmission. Figure with fuel lines and such 300 or so is around 27 mpg. Top speed was 78 mph so 3/4 of that is 58.5 mph.
   288. Lassus Posted: April 21, 2012 at 06:49 PM (#4112510)
Yeah, Humber joins the long and distressing list of former Mets to throw a no-hitter. He was a high draft pick out of Rice that was supposed to be major league ready with a super-plus curveball. Mets pick him and of course, poof, Tommy John surgery.

I made a point to go to this game, his first MLB start. Boy, did THAT go well.
   289. Tom Nawrocki Posted: April 21, 2012 at 06:51 PM (#4112515)
I'd guess Milt Pappas isn't very happy with that check-swing call.
   290. LionoftheSenate (feels sorry for the Pirates) Posted: April 21, 2012 at 07:08 PM (#4112557)
At least he's not a chickenhawk. He's been pretty reliably against every war in recent years.


What's a chickenhawk again? The person that demanded we kill Bin Laden, one of the most dangerous jobs in the world, even ripped on Bush for not getting the job done....but never bothered to sacrifice civilian life or train to hunt and kill Bin Laden, instead demanded others carry out this task. Yea, that's pretty much every American.

The term chickenhawk is pointless drivel.
   291. Lassus Posted: April 21, 2012 at 07:23 PM (#4112604)
A thousand miles of wall isn't enough for you to piss on?
I was with a group of women I was hoping would not see me as a boor.


Missed this, I hiked the Wall with three gorgeous women from Poland I met in a hostel in Beijing. It was indeed a Great Wall.

Man, I really did miss the travel thread. I agree that people in Asia, even when trying to cut me in train lines, were about 10000 times more friendly than those in Europe. And Vietnam so far counts as my favorite country I've ever visited. I would, and may, go there to retire.
   292. LionoftheSenate (feels sorry for the Pirates) Posted: April 21, 2012 at 07:25 PM (#4112609)
Missed this, I hiked the Wall with three gorgeous women from Poland I met in a hostel in Beijing. It was indeed a Great Wall.


Did you mark your territory?
   293. PreservedFish Posted: April 21, 2012 at 07:39 PM (#4112645)
Man, I really did miss the travel thread.


It's still happening! You hold the thread's destiny in your hands.
   294. Lassus Posted: April 21, 2012 at 10:01 PM (#4112741)
Regarding traveling, everywhere I went, from Asia to Poland and all points on the ground in between it was basically unanimous from all people living in various countries around the world that the worst, most-hated, least-respectful, biggestdouchebag tourists on the planet are the English. Specifically, young English men.
   295. Jolly Old St. Nick Done Jumped The Ship Posted: April 21, 2012 at 11:03 PM (#4112770)
Motel 6's and Super 8's are all over the place and especially by the highways. Plus everyone has a smartphone nowadays so you even get the added advantage of searching for a nearby cheap motel while you drive.

Of course "everyone" doesn't have a smartphone. With about 100,000,000 of them in the US, and a big percentage of them owned by teenagers, it's likely that not even a majority of adults own one.

And those Super 8's and Motel 6's are likely to be well over the adjusted 1969 prices if you have to rely on walk-up, which is still what people without a smartphone would have to do unless they're willing to plan their trip well in advance. You keep trying to force your own model of travel on everyone, which isn't always possible for many people.

The 1969 Beetle brochures claim 27 mpg. Checkout TheSamba.com for a trip down memory lane. 1969 VW Beetle had a 10.6 gallon fuel tank. VW claims you get 27 mpg with half payload at 3/4 top speed on level roads with standard transmission. 25 mpg with optional transmission. Figure with fuel lines and such 300 or so is around 27 mpg. Top speed was 78 mph so 3/4 of that is 58.5 mph.

I'll give you the 27 mpg, since I've never had anything but a stickshift. Our MPH varied from 30 going up steep inclines to 70-75 on Montana interstates with no speed limit. You can work out the math, but with the inflation-adjusted price of gas so far below today's, whatever the average mpg is today over 27 doesn't make up for the difference.

Since we've been down this road before, I'll just state the obvious: If you tried to drive two people today cross-country, stopping in roadside motels without advance planning or smartphones, eating your meals in restaurants, and driving (say) a Civic or a Corolla, you'd never be able to do it on $100 a day if you were averaging (as we did) about 350 miles a day. If you could afford a smartphone, and were willing to adjust your schedule to find the cheapest available place to stay, you could probably come a lot closer to doing it. But how much a month is all that connectivity costing you, and how much more would your trip cost if you didn't have it?
   296. Lassus Posted: April 21, 2012 at 11:23 PM (#4112775)
   297. McCoy Wilfong for Money Posted: April 21, 2012 at 11:47 PM (#4112784)
You keep trying to force your own model of travel on everyone, which isn't always possible for many people.

And yet that is what you are trying to do as well. You can get cheap rooms. Yes nowadays some things are different. Does that mean you can't drive until 10 at night and just pull in at the first Bates Motel you find? Probably but that doesn't mean it isn't rather easy to find cheap rooms with very short notice.

With about 100,000,000 of them in the US, and a big percentage of them owned by teenagers, it's likely that not even a majority of adults own one.


How old were you in 1969?

85% of Americans have a cell and as of right now and over half of those owners have a smartphone. Even without smartphone ability a cell phone allows one to use a phone on the road. Which I'm sure you are aware helps greatly in making reservationes. 90% of 20 year olds use a smartphone. By the end of 2012 the amount of smartphone owners will be much much higher. Almost all cellphones being sold right now are smartphones.

Can we enjoy a 30 day trip across America for two people on $100 a day? Well, if we put a huge amount of conditions on it like you seem to want to do then probably not. But I'll add one caveat. It's a helluva lot safer to do it nowadays then doing it back then. You can sit there and quibble about the cost of a smartphone or what have you but then you also have to factor in the increased amount of risks people were exposed to back then.
   298. Lassus Posted: April 21, 2012 at 11:55 PM (#4112790)
You can sit there and quibble about the cost of a smartphone or what have you but then you also have to factor in the increased amount of risks people were exposed to back then.

I don't think Andy's entirely right about the costs, but what sorts of dangers are you envisioning? Racial?
   299. McCoy Wilfong for Money Posted: April 22, 2012 at 12:01 AM (#4112794)
Well, for one driving a 1969 VW is a lot more of a risk than driving around in a 2010 Honda. We are a lot less likely to have some drunk driver kill us. The roads are simply safer to be on nowadays. Plus if something does go wrong nowadays we are much more likely to survive it and be at 100%. Nor is it likely for something to happen to our car or its part while driving all those miles as compared to 1969.
   300. Baldrick Posted: April 22, 2012 at 12:04 AM (#4112796)
Probably not, but then we weren't consciously trying not to spend, and we stayed in hotels or motels every night. Of course back then that meant as little as $4.00 a night ($25.00 today) for a clean hotel on a main street or a cabin on an old U.S. highway, with gas ranging from about $1.69 (in Berkeley, believe it or not) to $2.25 a gallon (in Chicago) in today's dollars. That's what you can't duplicate in 2012.

I did a two-week version of this a couple years ago when I moved from New Hampshire to the Bay Area. Total expenses were MAYBE a thousand bucks. Probably a good deal less.

The secret is that we live in the 21st century so we're connected to a massive number of people outside our local community. Which meant we had friends and family to crash with pretty much everywhere we went. That's what you can't duplicate in 1969.
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