I went to my first ever baseball game on Friday night. I didn’t think I’d enjoy it. It seems too similar to cricket, a game so long and boring that it feels like training for life in a nursing home.
But I was pleasantly surprised. Baseball’s a fast moving battle of nerves. When it comes down to three “balls” and two “strikes,” the guy at the bat has the world on his shoulders. If he takes another strike, his head hangs low. If he knocks it out of the park, he stands among the gods. The rules are simple and any confusion is cleared up by more beer. After two hours, I graduated from total novice to seasoned pro – shouting, “You could see the ball better if you got a haircut, hippie!” and “Hit it, don’t swat it, Zimmerman!” [That Zimmerman really bugged me. His whole technique seemed to rely on the pitcher not being able to throw. Is the man allergic to running?]
...Another, more stark, reminder of that truth is the role that military pageantry plays at a baseball game. At the start of the contest, the CIA honour guard trooped the colours and we were all invited to stand and applaud the folks serving in the US military. But nothing prepared me for the moving rendition of The Star-Spangled Banner, as sung by a female soldier in combat fatigues. The stadium stood proudly – hats clasped to chests – as she powerfully, beautifully sang the national anthem. “Does that Star-Spangled Banner yet wave/ O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave?” It sure does.
In contrast, American patriotism is sharper and more certain – and more fixedly about ideas. Its promise is individual freedom. But that freedom is guaranteed – just like victory in a baseball game – by thinking and acting as a team or a nation. One of the reasons why civil society works in the US slightly better than it does in Britain is that they understand the balance of rights and responsibilities between the individual and the group. Without the security of a welfare state, Americans are acculturated to risk and sacrifice, and so (ironically) they can be a little more charitable than us. They are certainly more free.
After the game we moved to a bar and got chatting with some young marines, who were talking excitedly about the fact that they are going to present the flag at one of the ballgames next week. After that, they will fly off to war. We are lucky to share the world with a nation that produces men like these.
Repoz
Posted: April 18, 2012 at 02:23 PM |
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There are awesome bargains out there in Westchester right now, especially if you're willing to get an older house that needs work. If you need a realtor, happy to refer someone. If you do buy, and need a contractor to do work, I'll get you an honest one (my father-in-law was in construction). You can email me through the site.
I assume you're lucky enough that your office is right outside Grand Central. People who commute to my office have another 15-20 minutes once they get to Grand Central or Penn Station, which is about how long it takes me to get door-to-door total.
About a 10-12 min walk. My commute all-in is 1 hour; 40 mins on the train and ~10 min on each end. If I lived on the UES or UWS it would be 30 min. I'm trading 5 hours a week for triple the space (for the same price) and a backyard.
Like a lot of liberals, Andy's gear is stuck in the civil rights era. And he thinks nothing much has changed.
I think the point, though, is that they were able to do it... The suburbs didn't boom solely with the richest migrating - they were an achievable thing for a fireman, policeman, etc.
I'll certainly grant that living in the poshest of neighborhoods has always been unobtainable for most of us, but increasingly -- I think even the reasonable neighborhoods are becoming unobtainable. I love Chicago, plan to buy here some day, and while I readily accept that the Gold Coast or a luxury loop penthouse isn't realistic, the choices do seem to be becoming more and more limited...
I'll certainly grant that living in the poshest of neighborhoods has always been unobtainable for most of us, but increasingly -- I think even the reasonable neighborhoods are becoming unobtainable. I love Chicago, plan to buy here some day, and while I readily accept that the Gold Coast or a luxury loop penthouse isn't realistic, the choices do seem to be becoming more and more limited...
This is a basic constraint of geography. The population of these metro-areas have soared, but there isn't any more land being created close to the city center.
NYC had ~8M inhabitants in 1950, and the suburbs were de minimus. Now there are 20M+ people in the metro area, still 8M in NYC, and the demand for prime Manhattan real estate has soared. In the 70's and 80's you could live in Manhattan more cheaply b/c crime was rampant and the schools sucked. Everybody with kids (except the very rich) fled as fast as possible. Nobody wants to go back to that.
As long as there are reasonable alternative in commuting distance, I just don't see why it's an issue if the middle class don't live between Chambers St amd 96th St. in Manhattan.
Like a lot of liberals, Andy's gear is stuck in the civil rights era. And he thinks nothing much has changed.
Yeah, but it's really funny when he supports something like rent control that actually subsidizes middle and upper class white people, and hurts immigrants and minorities.
Sure --
Though, I do think it's worth noting that certain... ummm segments... of our public discourse look upon on infrastructure spending, public transit spending, etc as something akin to public spending on the perverted arts.
The latest fad even seems to be GOP governors with larger ambitions turning away federal funds for transit projects.
I'd shudder to think then how much development there'd have been in Manhattan without rent control. In fact, it's always seemed to me that the exemption from control granted to new construction ended up fueling a huge amount of high-rise apartment development in the past 25 years.
Housing in New York is a hugely complicated mosaic of different policies and patterns. And some of it is driven totally by mystique and aura (not unlike baseball in the Bronx). When I lived in Astoria years ago, my then-wife worked on the Upper East Side; her commute was ridiculously brief. (I worked in the aforementioned Bronx, totally different story.) Despite the hilarious convenience of Astoria and the wonderfully neighborhoody quality (and fantastic food!) it displayed in the 1980s, it wasn't The City and so didn't register on any of our friends as being anywhere within the scope of human existence. (Hence it was also very cheap.) But the accidents of desirability – what side of a river you live on – have very often driven housing markets in cities. Rationality, as ever, can have little to do with it.
What are the conclusions that you'd like me to draw? That these neighborhoods are becoming more desirable to live in and consequently more expensive? Is that a bad thing? To some people yes, to others no.
Returning to your original question about whether an NYPD officer can afford to live in Manhattan, based on snapper's link the average officer makes $91k before OT after 5.5 years, which is 40% above the median household income in Manhattan of $65k.* So yes, I would say that NYPD officers can afford to live in Manhattan.
I suspect what you'll find, however, is that like most people in Manhattan, the ones who live there are disproportionately young and without children (the median household size in Manhattan is 2.09 vs. 2.59 statewide, the percentage of people below 18 years old is 14.8% vs. 22.3%). As they get older and have kids, like other people they probably tend to move elsewhere.
* In fact, $91k is 65% more than the median Queens household income and more than double the median in Brooklyn or the Bronx. A more interesting question than whether cops can afford to live in Manhattan, perhaps, is whether cops should be making so much more money than those they are serving and protecting. I'm not saying cops are overpaid -- my cousin is one and I have a lot of respect for what he does -- but I believe that is the question that snapper was originally raising.
And, of course, public servants can. already. live. in Manhattan with their families, if they're willing to put up with a standard of living that is low enough. Does Andy want public servants to be paid upwards of half a million dollars? Because that's the kind of income level that is needed, for starters, for a family of four to live well off in a two BR apartment in Manhattan. (I wonder if Andy realizes this.)
Most Americans would not consider jamming 4 people into 800-1000 sq ft, with no backyard or outside spaces, to be well off, no matter how tony the zip code.
Gentrification in Manhattan caused Starbucks.
I'd shudder to think then how much development there'd have been in Manhattan without rent control. In fact, it's always seemed to me that the exemption from control granted to new construction ended up fueling a huge amount of high-rise apartment development in the past 25 years.
I think zoning would restrict the development severely in any case.
Where you've seen high rise development, it's mostly converting existing office/industrial property, or building on the fringes of the city (Battery Park City, the Trump developments on 12th Ave in the 60's, 1st, York and East End Aves. on the UES).
Zoning and landmarking pretty much prohibits replacing low rise with high rise buildings in most dense, established neighborhoods. Many of the low rises sold their air rights years ago.
Starbucks is just a tax on those susceptible to marketing. You can get better coffee, cheaper, from a street cart.
So expensive. $2500 for two bedrooms in Morristown? Gimme a breka.
Taxes in New York are even higher than I thought!
That's nuts. You can get a very nice 2B place in Jersey City or Hoboken for roughly that kind of money assuming you're not fixated on living in one of the newer high rises. There's nothing wrong with Morristown, it's centrally located for north Jersey if you're working in state, but if you're working in NYC, there's no reason to live there as opposed to the cities I mentioned earlier.
Do they not have Starbuck's outside of New York City? Seems like they are pervasive in every part of the country I've ever been to.
I'm not even in the city any more, but I'd sooner live in a basement in Hunt's Point than have to take the PATH train every day. Or even once a week. I have never been on any public transportation I've hated more, and that includes things like the subway in Bangkok or trains full of scary Russians.
As far as New Jersey, there's always Hackensack.
BTW, Snapper, where do you live?
In any case, I'm starting to wonder about those mysterious western parts of North Jersey that heretofore I knew only from legend and one road trip to Pittsburgh. Lake Hopatcong, Hackettstown and such...would living in these places make me miserable?
But that's very odd. Manhattan is a desirable place to live, thus the expense of living there. There are plenty of outdoor spaces in Manhattan, just a short walk or subway ride away. Plus boatloads of cultural and educational opportunities.
The modern American notion that a city is a poor place to raise kids is just mindboggling to me.
Thanks ... yeah, on that site a lot of houses have already dropped their prices and compared to Manhattan they seem dirt cheap. Schools are the key to all of it for me.
The modern American notion that a city is a poor place to raise kids is just mindboggling to me.
It's perfectly fine and perfectly doable, but if the kid's into tennis and other sports, it's tough and wasteful and not conducive to athletic development.
Good Face nails it. I lived in Hoboken for two years, and it beats Morristown by a mile. If you need to be in central NJ, Morristown isn't bad but I had no idea it was so expensive. That's ridiculous.
Snapper, I think it's a question of lifestyle. Some parents believe raising their kids in the City is a good thing because it means the children will be easily and constantly exposed to culture. I live in a shoebox on the UWS, but within walking distance from gourmet markets, farmer's markets, museums, a concert hall, and Central Park. My rent is such that my gf (biz dev at a start up) and I (law student for a few more weeks) can afford it, along with our cat (unemployed). There's plenty of open space here, and playgrounds galore. Of course, a kid raised in Manhattan might grow up to be Julian Casablancas, so I can see the argument otherwise.*
*I love me some Strokes, and I'm just using him as shorthand for what Manhattan kids tend to be like in my experience.
Ray, I know this might seem rhetorical, but don't you think there's some benefit to society incentivizing people to work in public service, for the public good?
Weird. I never used the PATH to commute, but I grew up in Summit and I took the PATH into Hoboken all the time. I don't remember it being particularily memorable, one way or the other. What's the root of the antipathy?
I have no idea. I freely admit it's certainly not rational, but I just can't stand it. Probably a bad week pet-sitting or something when I was 25. Or drunk jerks in Hoboken.
EDIT: I see you're not. In which case I'm not sure why you want to be near a train station.
How's her basement?If you're one of those people who thinks having a restaurant on the first floor of your building is a great thing, yeah.
Depends what makes you miserable. Hackettstown proper used to have a bit of a trailer trash vibe, although I haven't really spent any time there in a while, might be nicer nowadays. Anyway, if you like the outdoors and don't mind driving 30+ minutes everytime you want to go someplace or do something, you might like that area. It's pretty country out there.
Huh. I suppose the rush hour trains are packed (and smelly, farting on a crowded train should be punishable by flogging), but it's a train during rush hour, whaddya expect? Otherwise my only beef with the PATH is my superhuman ability to just miss trains during weekend hours. It runs 24/7, it's safe and reasonably clean, not sure why you'd hate it so.
Thanks ... yeah, on that site a lot of houses have already dropped their prices and compared to Manhattan they seem dirt cheap. Schools are the key to all of it for me.
The Harrison Schools are very good, but not elite (i.e. not Scarsdale). I'd say middle of the pack for Westchester; but Westchester has excellent schools.
IMHO good enough for anyone, but if one subsribes to "enfant le roi" school of thought that kids must have homemade baby food, and $30K pre-schools, it's probably a little too blue-collar for your tastes.
BTW, Snapper, where do you live?
Harrison, NY. Basically where I95 hits 287, in between White Plains and Rye.
Agree that it's way overpriced, but you can't sit down with your computer in a street cart, and a lot of places (like Dunkin Donuts) don't offer the same atmosphere.
Wow... I hate agreeing with David, but this is fine with me... I'm not complaining about overpaid public servants, though - it seems that these compensation packages are necessary to attract the appropriate talent.
I don't think I've argued anywhere in this thread that they ought to get raises -- I'm just not in favor of cutting their pay/benefits because they're "public workers" (on my dime... yada yada).
...and now I'm forced to agree with Ray.
This day keeps getting worse and worse.
FWIW - I like Starbucks coffee quite a bit. I want coffee that TASTES like coffee, not hot black water. I also like Caribou - but there aren't nearly as many so handy. My office has a cafeteria where they actually brew Starbucks - and it's 50 cents cheaper - I'm not going to start arguing for barista pay, but I have taken multiple blind taste tests with co-workers who scoff at me walking a few blocks away to get my afternoon cup from Starbucks and I've never missed yet... including one time the tester cleverly tried to serve up two cups of cafeteria brewed coffee. I don't know if they just clean their machines more, it actually does matter how they grind and brew or what, but it's worth the premium.
We had a small 2 BR in Inwood (not the nice part either) - but this was maybe just barely a middle-class lifestyle.
And it took me ~30 min to commute to my office... IN MANHATTAN.
Manhattan is great if you are either young or rich, preferably both.
I don't know if police/firefighters can "afford" to live where I live now, in San Francisco -- but they do build subsidized housing for them every now and again.
I don't think I've argued anywhere in this thread that they ought to get raises -- I'm just not in favor of cutting their pay/benefits because they're "public workers" (on my dime... yada yada).
I'm not in favor of cutting their pay, just their benefits, b/c their benefits have grown to the point of absurdity. Workers who never earned that much are retiring on $100K pensions, b/c they game the OT, or claim questionable diabilities.
Pension and retiree health care costs are bankrupting municipal gov'ts. Even if you kept the same benefits and just increased the min age when you can claim them, you'd save billions upon billions.
In this economy, there's no argument that you need those platinum benefits to get qualified employees. Even when the economy was booming, there have always been a huge number of candidates sitting for every NYPD and NYFD exam.
Is there anyone who wants to argue that a cop who made $90K should be able to retiree at 45 and collect a $75-90K pension, with full health coverage, for the next 50 years?
Which are part of their pay. Good lord son.
Starbucks tastes like burnt coffee. Coffee never tastes like that anywhere else.
I'll say their short cappuchino (need to go short to get the right foam/coffee ratio) is good. But their regular coffee is like turpentine. That's why everyone buys the mocha frapppe latte chino crap.
I'm pretty sure the extreme strong bitter coffee is a marketing ploy 1) to get you addicted to the very high caffeine level and 2) to drive you to buy the pricier drinks with lots of milk and foam and crap to hide the taste.
Which are part of their pay. Good lord son.
Everyone discusses pay and benefits; collectively it is compensation. When you ask someone how much they get paid, they cite the cash component. No one has any idea what the total value of their benefits are.
I want to cut their total compensation per year of service, not their cash pay. It could be achieved by cutting benefits, or by making them work more years, or wait until an older age, to achieve max benefits.
Even simple changes like OT doesn't count towards your pension calculation would have a huge impact. Do you think it's right that someone who makes $80K, and gets a 50% pension, can rack up an extra $80K in OT that last year, and basically retire at full pay? Cause that happens all the time, and is a clear abuse.
Well, then the point of your disagreement with Zonk is that you're in favor of cutting their compensation, while he (shockingly) is not.
Sure - because I'd like to do that, too.
From a class perspective, I have a lot more in common with the cop than I do with the board of directors and executives that drive my pay... This is the single biggest reason I'm a union supporter even though I'm not in a union -- unions drive wages higher and I earn wages. The higher unions drive wages, the higher my wages get driven or else private sector employers risk losing me to the public sector.
Call it a liberal trope all you want, but I have zero interest in racing to the bottom.
It's no accident that middle class wages and benefits across the board have fallen in tandem with the strength of unions.
As far as the retire at 45, then benies for 50 years -- I saw 48 above for early retirement. That's not full benefits. What's more - you can't use the general life expectancy (which isn't 95 anyway) to calculate. Break it down by demographics -- life expectancy for the blue collar worker really hasn't increased as much as overall life expectancy. Life expectancy rate increases are highly correlative with income.
I have no idea what the life expectancy is for firefighters and police officers -- I do know that firefighters are in the top tier of deaths on the job, which certainly factors in.... but I had a job that the statistics say has a much higher than average chance of killing before I even GET to retire -- and even if I do get to that age, the statistics further say I shouldn't expect to live to age 70 -- then you're damn right I should get to retire in my 50s.
This is BTF, you have to ask?
It isn't a coincedence at all. Those unions helped send jobs overseas thus destroying their strength. That's what happens when you take a short term view.
What's more - you can't use the general life expectancy (which isn't 95 anyway) to calculate. Break it down by demographics -- life expectancy for the blue collar worker really hasn't increased as much as overall life expectancy
A person who retires at 45 or 48 or 55 isn't going to die at 40 thus they move into that part of the demographic that can be expected to live longer.
Yeah, there are no shortage of people here willing to argue that.
Hah!
Coffee Bean & Tea Leaf "overheard in NY": FATHER: (to 5-year-old): Finish your juice, Natalie. You really want to stay well-hydrated today, honey.
Yankee games, of course. Duh. Anyway, I guess it's because access to the city is a big part of the appeal of northern Jersey to us. We don't really NEED to. In fact, the Willowbrook Mall park and ride usually suits me just fine.
Rule #1: *Never* ask where that watch came from.
Be ready for a ton of them. The guy who has the franchise rights for NYC has to open 100 of them or so in the next 5 years or so.
This is BTF, you have to ask?
--------------------------------------
742. RayDiPerna Posted: April 24, 2012 at 05:08 PM (#4115073)
Yeah, there are no shortage of people here willing to argue that.
--------------------------------------
744. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 24, 2012 at 05:10 PM (#4115077)
Hah!
Yeah, this thread has been a real BTF circle jerk, all right, organized by the Rothbard Society and the Club for Growth, with funding by the Landlords Association. I couldn't gather together a more objective trio if I went over to Brian Cashman's tobacco shop. Just promise me you'll never change, because in spite of everything I'd rather be governed by you three than by a bunch of pod people.
If it's not doable to get enough space for $1600-$1800 we may have to consider towns like Nutley, Belleville, and Bloomfield. Not a problem for me, but my wife doesn't share my affection for working class Jersey grit. I've even floated "let's get in on the ground floor of the Newark Renaissance" idea a couple of times. Have they built any luxury apartments near Penn Station and The Rock yet?
Good luck.
A terribly underrated solo album.
Any mass transit coming out of NYC after 6 PM is going to full of a lot of drunks. The thing with PATH is that it is the only way to get to NJ after midnight (other than driving).
If Unions are so weak, why are the police and firemen paid so much! I guess because you can't outsource cops to India or Vietnam.
Yes, public sector unions have negotiated a fat pension for themselves. Bully for the them. Isn't that what capitalism is all about?
Solutions to problems I never, ever plan to have for 1000, Alex.
Steer the f*ck clear. I've spent the last 3 years commuting to Newark. Cory Booker is a great mayor and a better person. The area near Newark Penn is much better than it was, even in 2009. Blahty freaking blah.
Eleven Eighty is a luxury building in Newark held in high regard by people I know who live there. It's about a 5-7 minute walk from Newark Penn, and no more than that from the Rock. There's a Dinosaur BBQ opening soon, and the Ironbound is a great place for Portugese food and culture. Hobby's Deli is as good as it gets. Rutgers-Newark off the broad street station is a cool area and it has McGovern's, which is an amazing bar. Blahty blah.
Real talk: Newark's still not there yet. Do yourself a favor and take Jersey City (Grove Street) instead. Or South Orange, even (but it is a college town.)
EDIT:
Agreed. I wish it was Christmas today.
Nutley is working class?!?! I don't think you know working class. Bayonne is working class.
I agree with Heinie, I'd skip Newark, unless it's Ironbound.
Nutley is working class?!?! I don't think you know working class. Bayonne is working class.
Hmm...maybe I don't, but compared to the other suburbs in Essex County? South Orange, Maplewood, Millburn, Verona, North Caldwell, Cedar Grove, Fairfield, Essex Fells, Roseland, Livingston.....yeah, I think Nutley, Bloomfield, and Belleville form an axis of at least semi-working class.
You mean it's not 100% white collar professional?
My town is like that too, at a higher price point. Lot's of skilled tradesmen (masons, plumbers, carpenters, contractors) and small business owners.
Just go to the Jackals games.
This afternoon, I got a venti triple mocha valencia latte... AT GUNPOINT!
Many commute from the suburbs (my mom has worked in both the police and fire credit unions for 20 years, and it feels like every firefighter or cop I met lives in Petaluma), but you can do it if you want to. A buddy of mine is a cop and just bought a house in the Ingleside. He's a native San Franciscan so he was keen on staying in the City, and, most importantly given our economic situation, he went to San Diego State so he barely has any student loan debt.
Most of the cops I know who haven't owned a home for 20-30 years live in Sunnyside, Ingleside, the Excelsior, St. Mary's, and Mission Terrace, which have traditionally been the haunts of working-class San Franciscans.
Pretty much this. Newark is New Jersey's city of the future and it always will be. Never a reason to go there other than the Ironbound, and really, how much Spanish/Portugese food can you eat? Casa Vasca is pretty good though, their bacalao is just like your old Galician grandma would make, assuming you had one.
Jersey City is awesome in that it's a walkable city and has great access to NYC, but parking can be a problem unless you're willing to pay for it. Since you and your wife are going to be working in NJ, I'm guessing that means two cars, so you might be better off further west. Speaking of which, Westfield is on the train line, not too far from Madison/Montclair, is pleasant and safe, and has a walkable downtown area. No idea about apartment availability/pricing though... I doubt you'll find many bargains there.
Really depends where in JC you are. I live a block off Grove St. and have no trouble with parking. Granted I don't drive to work and only move my car for street cleaning, but still it's not that bad.
As others have said, avoid Newark.
Just so the rest of you non-locals know... you could probably get a smallish house there for under $600K these days.
That having been said: while Westfield is on a train line, the Raritan Valley line is a PITA. (1) To go into the city, you have to change in Newark, so your one hour train ride, which would otherwise be an easy, relaxing ride, is broken up. (2) It runs only once an hour off-peak.
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