User Comments, Suggestions, or Complaints | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertising
Buy MLB playoff tickets, plus 2011 World Series, 2011 ALCS tickets and NLCS game tickets. We also have Texas Rangers playoff schedule, tickets to Red Sox games and Yankees game tickets. Plus, buy Phillies baseball tickets, Tigers playoff tickets and the biggies like ALDS baseball tickets and 2011 NLDS tickets. |
Demarini, Easton and TPX Baseball Bats
|
AllianceTickets.com has cheap MLB Tickets. Get all your Colorado Rockies Tickets, Seattle Mariners Tickets, San Francisco Giants Tickets and all your favorite baseball tickets here. We also carry cheap Denver Broncos Tickets, Seattle Seahawks Tickets and Denver Nuggets Tickets. |
Page rendered in 0.5218 seconds
54 querie(s) executed
Reader Comments and Retorts
Go to end of page
Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.
Inverted W and all that.
Other than Nationals fans for having to listen to his endlessly running clap-trap.
Why does it seem sadder in baseball than other sports? People thought Blake Griffin, for example, was unlucky, but it didn't make people think "Well, Blake Griffin's career, at least the career we had hoped he would have, is already over." Same deal with Kenyon Martin. There was a ton of sorrow about Willis McGahee's injury, but it was all because he missed the end of the Fiesta Bowl, not because it might ruin his career (he was still drafted #23 overall).
I think it's because all these pitcher arm injuries seem like the product of luck...they are not caused by any particular on-the-field incident, and we never know when they will happen. And it's only pitchers.
Primey.
Yup, with Willingham out they need someone for left.
Somebody's career is damaged by being drafted by the Clippers every year. We've grown numb to the lives ruined by Donald Sterling.
That's more articulate than anything I have to add...
It's another reason why relieving is easier.
Yep. This is one of the best diagnoses/prognoses that a pitcher with acute arm pain can get. It’s no sure thing he’ll come back and be a dominant force again, but I like his odds too.
Edit: Coke to 19.
Yeah we'll probably see him at some point in 2012 but 2012 will be his rehab season. I don't see how 2012 will be a fully healed season for Stephen.
In this case, Tony Gwynn and San Diego St. did right by the kid, too. (from what I've read, at least.)
All baseball fans have to feel like they got cheated. At least with Wood and Prior we got to see them at their peak for more than six weeks.
Of course, as an Expos fan I enjoy any bad news for the Washington Nationals.
Takes a while to build up that arm strength. Liriano is a decent comp - was a top 5-10 pitcher immediately upon entering the majors, had a good fastball and great slider. Took him his 3rd year back from the injury to get that velocity back - IIRC in 08 and 09 he was only around 90 with his fastball. So while Strasburg could easily be ready to go at the beginning of 2012 he may never be the electric pitcher he was - or we may have to wait a while until he rounds back into that form.
It's just one data point (though there are others) but I'm coming around to this line of thinking. Beyond staying within the margins of what is reasonable, there is simply no way to prevent injuries to young starting pitchers.
Ten, twelve years ago it was reasonable to try a new approach. So a sea change happened, and the new approach was tried, but, AFAICT, hasn't really produced better results.
Pitchers often break. You don't know whether or when it's going to happen. For the most part, you're powerless to prevent it.
After his 7th or 8th start, I posted a list of starting pitchers with consecutive K>=IP starts to begin a career. I mentioned that he was tied with Herb Score. A few people on this site got faux-angry for "cursing" Strasburg.
I officially apologize for bringing up Score's name when I did.
As a former and bitter Expos fan, I am wearing a big S for schadenfreude right now. This made my day.
As a current baseball fan who has no ties to either team but enjoys watching good players, I say #### you to both of you.
I know Kerry Wood never became Nolan Ryan like a lot of people hoped, but it's 12 years after his TJ and he's still in the majors, and has averaged more than 10 K/9 over his entire career. He was, for all practical purposes, as good in 2003 as he was in 1998, maybe better. His 2002 wasn't all that far off, either.
Of course, he's continued to have arm problems throughout his career, but it's not like his surgery put an end to his effectiveness.
I seem to recall reading that Ryan was injured numerous times in the 70's and 80's. For instance in 1975 he had elbow surgery.
####. #### FUCK #### FUCK ####. It doesn't help that he's on my BBTF DMB team.
I was trying to remember who had him. Thanks for saving me the trouble of looking it up.
Kerry Wood basically had one season that was as good or better than his rookie season and it wasn't like Kerry had a great rookie season.
This reminds me of what I have heard some doctors say about longevity. Everything is important at the margin (good eating; lots of veggies in the diet; alcohol in moderation; no smoking; regular exercise), but all of that is merely at the margin. The single most important factor in longevity is your genes. We all have or know a grandma that smoked 2 packs a day into her 90's, and a thin runner who did it all right and died in their 50's.
I think there are some pitching arms that are just genetically much better built to stand the strain than others. I guess Nolan Ryan is the best example (a freak in this regard), but there are other guys that you can trot out for 200+ innings every year, and they keep going and going, and some guys who have more brittle arms or bones or ligaments or joints (Mike Hampton comes to mind), that can work themselves into perfect physical strength and can incorporate stretching routines that would make a yoga master proud and (to again quote Bill Murray)...it just doesn't matter.
Shooty wins again!
I mean, seriously though: Roger Clemens and Christ Carpenter were both pretty badly hurt when they were young. Strasburg's gone for a year or two, but it ain't over yet.
Yeah. The waiting might well be worse.
Rk Player GmScA ERA+ GS W L IP Year Age1 Dwight Gooden 70 229 35 24 4 276.2 1985 20
2 Dwight Gooden 65 137 31 17 9 218.0 1984 19
3 Fernando Valenzuela 65 135 25 13 7 192.1 1981 20
4 Frank Tanana 65 135 33 16 9 257.1 1975 21
5 Felix Hernandez 63 158 12 4 4 84.1 2005 19
6 Mark Fidrych 62 159 29 19 9 250.1 1976 21
7 Kerry Wood 61 129 26 13 6 166.2 1998 21
8 Dwight Gooden 61 126 33 17 6 250.0 1986 21
9 Bret Saberhagen 60 145 32 20 6 235.1 1985 21
10 Fernando Valenzuela 60 122 37 19 13 285.0 1982 21
11 Bill Gullickson 60 119 19 10 5 141.0 1980 21
12 Bob Welch 60 174 13 7 4 111.1 1978 21
13 Stephen Strasburg 59 141 12 5 3 68.0 2010 21
14 Mark Prior 59 122 19 6 6 116.2 2002 21
15 Dennis Eckersley 59 144 24 13 7 186.2 1975 20
16 John Candelaria 59 128 18 8 6 120.2 1975 21
17 Clayton Kershaw 58 142 30 8 8 171.0 2009 21
18 Ismael Valdez 58 125 27 13 11 197.2 1995 21
19 Britt Burns 58 143 32 15 13 238.0 1980 21
20 Dennis Eckersley 58 101 30 13 12 199.1 1976 21
Mariano Rivera. Discussion over.
Um, no.
Yeah, I'd disagree with this. Wood in 2001 looks very similar to Wood in 1998 - I think easily as good as his rookie year. Wood in 2002 was a little below his rookie year, but an above average starter. Wood in 2003 was again, as good or better than his rookie year, but with an extra 50 innings.
Wood is similar to Strasburg in being dominating, and being 21 at the time of his injury. He's different in that a huge part of Wood's dominance was that insane slider, which he shelved after the surgery. It seemed to me that he had to re-learn how to pitch, because his go-to pitch was off limits.
I love Kerry Wood, but I don't think there is any doubt that Stephen Strasburg is a more polished pitcher than Wood was at 21 - maybe than Wood ever became. The most basic evidence of that is that Strasburg's walk rate is 2.3/9 IP. Kerry's Wood's rate at 21 was exactly twice that, and his career rate is 4.3. I think Strasburg's got the promise of a much higher ceiling.
The unanswerable question, of course, is if he'll get healthy, or continue to scuffle with injuries. This is lousy news.
He had to watch Crossroads.
But that was more depressing than this.
Pure gold, Guy. I laughed for 30 seconds.
I'm no athletic trainer, but to me that inverted W motion always looks like an elbow injury waiting to happen. It makes my elbow hurt just watching a guy do it.
With Strasburg next year, they're a better team but they aren't going to win anything. Finish a few games under 500, draft, say, 14th. Maybe a little better in 2012.
However, now they'll suck next year. Finish in the bottom 5, maybe, draft high. Strasburg is back on the hill in DC in, let's say, June 2012. They still finish bottom 10. That's two more good drafts. If I'm them, I focus on college players unless there is a high schooler that can reasonably be projected to come back quick. Then 2013 dawns with Strasburg healthy, Harper up and your recent high picks knocking on the door. Throw in a couple decent FA picks and they're a contender.
But it still sucks. It's not like it HAD to happen. He coulda been a freak. He was in every other regard. What I'm curious about is why does it always take for them to get to the majors before the arm goes snap. Like Shooty mentioned above, Ynoa just got TJ at 17. I feel like THAT would be more common, but it always seems like they get to the bigs for a little while and then the arm goes haywire. Fine through college. Fine through the minors. (I'm sure there are counterexamples to what I'm thinking about, but everyone that immediately comes to mind - Prior, Wood, Rich Harden - were guys that were generally fine until they started throwing in the bigs.)
There's no coasting in the bigs? They feel like they need to reach back for a little more? The adrenaline pumps a little harder? Or, maybe, we just don't hear about the guys who don't make it to the bigs before their elbows snap because they never go to the bigs.
Not a Cubs fan, huh? I'd rather be homeless than watch that atrocity.
Edit: Meaning Game 6 of the 2003 NLCS of course.
Because to get drafted in the majors and to become a big major league prospect you have to survive high school and or college healthy. If some 19 year old stud in college blows out a tendon and has to get major surgery he isn't coming back anytime or soon or even getting that surgery. Basically it is a selection bias.
Sometimes thats all you can do, but I really think it instead should be treated as a lesson in pitching mechanics. After the articles earlier this year, the more I read up on the whole "upside down", "inverted W", the more I watch pitchers and see correlation between that and injuries.
Strasburg's arm action and break is pretty similar to Mark Prior's.
Not to be the bearer of bad news to Nats fans, but Drew Storen also scares me.
These both make sense to me. I guess I'm more interested in if anyone can remember a guy who was hyped like Prior or Strasburg but who blew out in AAA or something before even making it. I can't immediately off the top of my head.
The soccer thread or the NBA thread?
Exactly. And maybe there's just nothing we can do about it.
Perhaps the answer is, get a pitcher to the bigs as soon as he's ready talent wise, send him out there every 5 days for his 100-120 pitches and don't worry about it.
Some will get hurt, some won't. There's basically nothing we can do about it besides avoiding outright abuse.
Right. I'm just wondering if anyone can remember somebody hyped on the Prior or Strasburg level who never got to the majors period. That is all.
edit: Like the first person I thought of was Brien Taylor. But I'm too young to know how hyped he was. Did he even get hurt? Or was he just bad? He missed his entire age-22 season, so I assume he got hurt somewhere.
I don't disagree with you in any way. I am literally just asking if anyone can remember such a case.
Ryan Anderson?
i'd say dibble, only because i can't remember the last time bunning ever admitted he was wrong.
I think you may be over-rating him a bit.
One issue with this is that if they're as hyped as, say, Prior or Strasburg, they must be as good as those two were and pitchers that good just don't spend much time in the minors. Prior pitched 51 innings in the minors before being called up for good. Strasburg pitched 55. That's a pretty small window in which to get hurt.
As it turns out, Prior pitched over 300 innings in the majors before getting hurt. Strasburg only had 68. But guys like Anderson or Taylor who were highly hyped weren't as good as those two (minor league HR rate/BB rate/K rate pre-injury or callup: Ryan Anderson--0.5/5.3(!!)/12.0, Taylor--0.3/4.7(!!)/8.7, Prior--0.2/3.2/13.9, Strasburg--0.2/2.1/12.0), and therefore spent more time in the minors. Both Anderson and Taylor pitched over 300 miL innings before getting hurt, roughly the same number of pro innings as Prior. It's just that Prior was already in the majors for two years.
You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.
<< Back to main