There’s plenty of Pauls…but no Peters.
Dissatisfaction over a seeming discrepancy between the visitors bullpen mound and the Coors Field main mound caused Cardinals manager Tony La Russa to seek an umpires’ review of the two following Friday night’s loss and led to an animated exchange with the Rockies grounds crew Saturday.
Cardinals starting pitcher Chris Carpenter complained to La Russa and pitching coach Dave Duncan after the first inning Friday, noting that the main mound was much steeper than the one on which he had warmed.
Carpenter made it through seven innings, allowing only one run, but complained of having little command of his curveball while having to make an adjustment to account for the mound’s steeper face.
“When a pitcher like him says something about it, what are you supposed to do, forget about it?” Duncan said.
The umpiring crew measured the two mounds Saturday and found no discrepancy. The finding didn’t prevent La Russa and Duncan from a testy back-and-forth nearly four hours before first pitch with Rockies head groundskeeper Mark Razum.
Repoz
Posted: September 27, 2009 at 04:24 AM |
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1. Anonymous Observer Posted: September 27, 2009 at 05:44 AM (#3333747)However, the Cardinals found Almond Joys to be satisfactory.
AO
Booo.
I was surprised they kept Wainwright in so long. Looking at his gamelogs, it seems unusual (8 IP, 36 batters, 130 pitches). Does TLR fear his middle relief, was it some kind of pre-playoff test of Wainwright's mettle? He definitely pitched a good game but didn't seem so dominant that the long outing was the only way to victory.
If this were a non-Pujols universe, Wainwright would probably be my favorite player. There's nothing to not love about him from a Cardinals' point of view.
Well, LaRussa is a lawyer.
DB
So Tony is laying the groundwork (no pun intended) for demanding action even if all the information points to no action being required.
It would not be surprising if they drag the St. Louis groundskeeper out to Colorado to get the Cards to shut up.
Impressive note about Wainwright's second half: his season ERA has gone down in 17 of his last 18 starts.....
Gotta love baseball people. LaRussa and Duncan were wrong, and provably so, yet they didn't just refuse to apologize to the groundskeeper, they keep arguing with him.
That's Tony LaRussa in a nutshell, right there. In 20+ years of watching him, I don't think I've ever seen him admit to being wrong.
No wonder he and George Will get along so well.
Now, here's the real question. Could Duncan and La Russa be suspicious becuase of anything they might have been involved with in the past?
Go Braves!
How do you know that?
They're trying hard not to, though. They are now 3-3 in the last six games against the worst two teams in the league, including today's epic meltdown of errors and wild pitches and backfiring intentional walks.
Actually it is if Philadelphia finishes with a better record than St. Louis, and Rockies were to claim the wild-card, Phillies and Rockies would be the first round.
The Dodgers-Cardinals record enters into it if Atlanta is the wild-card. Then Atlanta plays whichever team between Dodgers and Cardinals has best record.
It makes sense, too, if a team is looking for an edge. Take this case. A pitcher complains about the difference after a game on Friday but the umpires only inspect the mounds on Saturday. That gives the groundskeepers have plenty of time to adjust the bullpen mound. And if they do get caught, what would happen? A fine and maybe some closer scrutiny? It's certainly worth trying.
Edit: Zumsteg also mentions that one of the problems with altering the pitcher's mound is that free agency and trades are more common now, so there's more opportunities to players and teams to betray each other. So ballfan's point about LaRussa's relationship with the groundskeeper might be on the mark.
Are there numbers on that? I'm calling BS on the "trades are more common now" part.
This is an interesting point; I for one wasn't aware that there was history between these men. Good job ballfan pointing that out.
DB
Actually, that's a misquote. It just claims that if a pitcher cooperates with teh growndskeeper, they might turn on him if he is traded or leaves through free agency. There's nothing about that being more common now.
you think so? I figure with upcoming free agency that trades happen more now than they did in the past, Holliday twice in calendar year, the Pirates etc.
I could be totally wrong, but my gut reaction is that significantly fewer major league players are traded today than before free agency. (In part because many trades nowadays involve only one MLB player switching teams, whereas in the past, major leaguers were probably traded for each other more often.)
Along with free agency, I think there being more teams now plays a part in that as well (more teams = more trading partners).
Perhaps. After all, La Russa is a lot of things, but idiot isn't one of them; and, in general, it's not very smart to get into a fight with a man who makes his living working with a shovel on a large open field.
DB
my gut says the opposite, there seems to be a ton of smaller names traded because of upcoming free agency, that normally wouldn't happen if it wasn't for the upcoming free agent. And players getting traded multiple times in a calendar year seems to happen a lot more.
TLR plays politics and lawyer, he really doesn't do the Bobby Cox being an a-hole type of thing. Weird way to end a game though, with a baserunning gaffe by Albert. And I did not know that Tulowitzki(sp) had 30 homeruns this season.
of course easy blown calls at first base is how you earn your Cardinal wings....
I was thinking about that, but didn't see, if he tagged up then if I remember the rule, the run wouldn't have counted, it would have only counted if he didn't tag up and scored before the appeal on Albert(or something like that, it's a weird rules lawyer type of call) and if they don't appeal the out at third. (probably wrong on that)
And if he had tagged up, then appealing would have nothing to do with it, it's a timing play. If Lugo touches home before Pujols is tagged, the run counts.
[edited for clarity]
God is right (duh). The only area where Lugo tagging up matters is the Rockies could have gone for the fourth out appeal if he hadn't. But either way, it's a timing play, since there's no force involved.
I'd guess he didn't actually cross the plate before Albert was doubled up, but it would be nice to get confirmation.
That occurred to me but then the mounds would be of different diameters. I would think that would be evident to someone looking at them if there was a marked difference in slope.
There are actually specific regulations regarding the angle of the slope, but I doubt your average umpiring crew would have a sophisticated enough knowledge of physics to inspect that competently. See Rule 1.06, diagram 3.
One of the replays I saw on TV was a split screen of Lugo and the main camera. It did not look like Lugo touched home plate before they got Pujols at first.
So explain to me again what happens if Lugo does cross home plate first without tagging up?
The run would have counted, unless the Rockies appealed back at 3B?
So what happens if (like yesterday) it's the end of the game?
Do the umpires let everyone walk off the field, and then announce the tying run has scored?
Do they ask the Rockies to come to bat?
Part of me wishes that did happen, just to see the confusion from the announcers/umpires/reporters.
4 hours? really? did they have bathroom breaks? have you ever argued with someone for 4 hours? that's pretty intense.
as i understand the rules, if he crosses before pujols is doubled up, the rockies need to appeal to third before they leave the field. but i don't think he did, so its moot. boy, was i flummoxed by that ending. lugo messed up, he should have kept running and hoped to beat the double play and hoped the rockies miss the appeal, which they prob. wouldn't anyway.
That brings up the question of what "they" means, and what "leave the field" means. Everyone ran out to short rightfield to mob Clint Barmes after that play, so most of the team was still on the field for quite some time. But if Todd Helton is already in the dugout at that point, has the team left the field? If one player is left on the playing surface, is the team still considered to be on the field? What if that player is in foul ground but not in the dugout?
The umpire will point to the plate and signal the official scorer to let him know that a run has scored. So if anyone on the Rockies is paying attention at all, they'll see that happening. Presumably, they would have still had an opportunity to record the appeal.
This could have been a huge mess. Thank goodness Julio Lugo didn't feel like trying very hard.
Correct. That would be the advantageous "fourth out" that wipes the run off the board.
In terms of what constitutes "off the field," a team is "on the field" in this sense as long as one non-catcher player is in fair territory. Once the 8th position player crosses the foul line, the team loses its right to appeal.
The big issue on these types of plays is whether the umps realize it at the time. If the umps are on the ball, they should be noting the run counts long before the Rockies have completed the on-field celebration, allowing them the opportunity to appeal the play.
But if the umps screw up (which has happened on a couple of the failed fourth-out scenarios), and aren't alerted to the fact that the run should have counted until after the team has left the field, that's when the fun begins. In a game-ending situation like this one, I don't know if the teams would have been brought back out or a protest would needed to be filed.
This one of the relatively few instances where the MLB rules are actually specific enough to be useful. They actually define the term "leaving the field."
Rule 7.10 (d)
For the purpose of this rule, the defensive team has “left the field” when the pitcher and all infielders have left fair territory on their way to the bench or clubhouse.
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