A child under the age of two cries on take-offs/landings because the change in pressure hurts their ears.

I'm with them on that one. If you're 18 months old and have no idea why your head feels like it's going to implode, it's gotta be terrifying.

One thing I've noticed on Amtrak lately is adults letting their kids play video games without headphones. That pisses me off. Also pisses me off when adults do the same, but most have the good sense to wear the 'phones rather than turn up the game to drown out the noise of the train.

Btw: why do some people feel the need to be condescending to other people on the internet?"

If this was addressed in part to me: I wasn't trying to be condescending. The "eggshell-thin skin" bit may have been over the line, so my apologies for that. But my questions weren't sarcastic or rhetorical. I'm genuinely curious what your answers to those are.

@Athletic in Powderhorn:
No, mostly directed at Traderdave's comment here:
"Young women do not dig on such contempt for kids, families etc. It tends to cool their ardor for engaging (with you) in the activity that creates kids."

For answers to your questions:

Pot, meet kettle. Why should others rearrange their vacation plans to save you a minor annoyance? Why is your comfort more important than theirs? Bring an iPod and a good pair of these and most of your problems are solved.

Because it hurts kids to travel on planes. I mean, that's not really a great solution. I understand that you want to go to Hawaii, but if it's hurting your kid, and that's making them cry, I don't find that to be terribly responsible.

Similarly, a lot of families end up taking flights with long connections and inconvenient routing in order to save money on the tickets. This ends up making them miserable. Unsurprisingly, they express that misery.

And I have an iPod and noise canceling headphones. Small childrens' screams go right through it.

I addressed this already. Not everyone has the free time to drive halfway across the country to soothe the eggshell-thin skin of a small minority of fliers.

The majority of people traveling with their kids on the plane aren't doing so for the benefit of that child. I understand that you might prefer a different vacation. I'm not saying that it should be illegal for children under the age of 5 to fly. I'm merely stating two things: 1. That it's rude to bring your very small child. and 2. That I wish a carrier would adopt a policy of no kids under the age of 4.

That's it.

1101. Again that is a huge generality.

Because it hurts kids to travel on planes. I mean, that's not really a great solution. I understand that you want to go to Hawaii, but if it's hurting your kid, and that's making them cry, I don't find that to be terribly responsible.

That's not what you were saying before. Before, it was annoying, rude, the kids don't get anything out of it, and the parents were selfish. Now, it's all about the kids' well-being? I don't think so. You're all about you. We get it. Accept that every one else feels the say way about themselves, and nobody else feels the same way about you.

FWIW, making my kid clean her room makes her cry. People in surrounding homes can probably hear her cry. Does that mean I should never make her clean her room? You'll excuse me if I don't take parenting advice from someone who actively doesn't want to be a parent.

And I have an iPod and noise canceling headphones. Small childrens' screams go right through it.

In my experience noise-isolating earbuds work much better (noise canceling are better for low frequencies iirc). I can't hear anything with my Shures stuffed deep into my earcanals. Some people hate canalphones because of this, but it's what makes them block sound out so well. My wife is one of those people, uses stock iPod earbuds, and hears everything going on around us over the movie we're watching.

it isn't parenting advice it is advice on how to behave within a society.

Kids are a gigantic -- and by the way, essential -- part of societies. They're learning how to fit in. Grown-ups should probably try and cut them some slack.

Considering that we are (or at least I am) railing against the parents who appear to do nothing or do very little to train their kids to be part of society I don't see why cutting kids slack is relevant to the discussion. I mean it isn't like a two year old decides whether or not he is going to take a vacation to Rome this spring.

That's not what you were saying before. Before, it was annoying, rude, the kids don't get anything out of it, and the parents were selfish. Now, it's all about the kids' well-being? I don't think so.

FYI: I'm pretty consistent about saying it's rude. That to me, is a bigger reason than it hurting the kids, because vaccinations hurt kids, too, but those are necessary. I assumed you knew that it hurt your kids to fly and your vacation was more important to you, so I didn't really mention it too much.

Again, the only person who's getting something out of a family vacation on a plane ride is the parents--they're getting their preferred destination. If the kids are 1 and 2, they don't really know what's going on, and they don't like the process of air travel (not that anyone does, really). Now, you feel like it's worth it to you to be rude to everyone around you and hurt your kids ears because you really want to go to your preferred destination. You are well within your rights to do so, just don't pretend that it isn't rude to people around you, because it is. I wish I had the option of opting out of being on the same plane, but I don't.

FWIW, making my kid clean her room makes her cry. People in surrounding homes can probably hear her cry. Does that mean I should never make her clean her room?

If your child cried loudly enough to be heard next door, and I was your neighbor and it happened for hours at a time, I would probably talk to you about it. Actually--check that. If I could hear your daughter crying for hours regularly, I would probably call the police because I'd be concerned.

You'll excuse me if I don't take parenting advice from someone who actively doesn't want to be a parent.

Uh, all I ever said was that I don't think that you should take infants/toddlers on plane vacations. I never said that I hated kids.

tship:

I wasn't being condescending, I was offering you some advice in the pursuit of women. If you can cloak your thin-skinned self absorption and misplaced hostility you might get more action. I usually charge $400/hr for advice but you just got that for free.

I wasn't being condescending, I was offering you some advice in the pursuit of women. If you can cloak your thin-skinned self absorption and misplaced hostility you might get more action. I usually charge $400/hr for advice but you just got that for free.

Gosh, I wonder why anyone would interpret your tone as condescending.

I normally would hate to put out such a learned professional as yourself, but luckily I charge $400/hr for sarcastic responses, so it looks like we're even.

But hey, thanks for the tip. Hey, in the spirit of our new friendship, I've found that women like to be treated as people, not just as objects of pursuit.

You can't blame him. His name is Trader Dave after all. I bet he has a two heads for one special going on too.

Because it hurts kids to travel on planes."

I've never know this to happen. My sisters and I all flew as small children; it didn't hurt us. My three nieces and nephew, all very young, have flown multiple times. They seem like very well-adjusted sorts. Kids are more resilient than you think. In my experience, the type of kid who'll pitch a fit on a plane is just as likely to pitch a fit in a restaurant, a theater, or in any public place when they're not getting their way.

Since when does not wanting kids = hostility?

I find children adorable at best, obnoxious at worst. I also think that the vast majority of people, upon making the decision to have/not have children, need to apply a little more consideration that the typical "well, I want kids--let's have 'em!" Economic factors should apply. Social factors should apply. Genetic factors, too. The kind of environment the child will be growing up in should apply.

But some people go "Wheee, I want kids", and that's it.

Not to mention that there aren't enough jobs to go around already....

Because it hurts kids to travel on planes.

You don't know what you're talking about. My four year-old kid has traveled on a plane, I don't know, twenty times? Including twice to Europe. With suitable toys, a DVD player and other distractions, he does just fine.

I am sure there are many kids that simply cannot handle it, but my guess is, looking at all of the other kids on planes who seem to do just fine like mine does, that they are a small minority.

I'm merely stating two things: 1. That it's rude to bring your very small child.

This is NOT true. It's rude even if the child doesn't make any noise?

I've never know this to happen. My sisters and I all flew as small children; it didn't hurt us. My three nieces and nephew, all very young, have flown multiple times. They seem like very well-adjusted sorts. Kids are more resilient than you think. In my experience, the type of kid who'll pitch a fit on a plane is just as likely to pitch a fit in a restaurant, a theater, or in any public place when they're not getting their way.

tship is talking specifically about kids crying when the pressure changes during takeoffs and landings. It doesn't happen with all kids, but it does seem to happen to a lot of the toddler set- it seems like they get really scared by the pain in their ears and freak out. Which is totally understandable.

I remember as a little kid the change in pressure was rather painful and uncomfortable. I don't know if planes have gotten better or I have gotten used to it but I barely notice it nowadays when I fly.

Also I flew to Nebraska a couple of weeks ago and on the Memphis to Omaha leg of the trip they put us in a little plane and the seats did not recline. DC to Memphis had seats that reclined. Also, while it is extremely easy to get in and out of Reagan they charge you for WiFi while Memphis does not.

tship is talking specifically about kids crying when the pressure changes during takeoffs and landings.

No he isn't. He is noting that is a time when they do it. He is talking about them crying the whole flight.

I've never know this to happen. My sisters and I all flew as small children; it didn't hurt us. My three nieces and nephew, all very young, have flown multiple times.

Perhaps this is an individual thing.

I grew up in Southeast-Asia. Flew back to the US at least 2x a year.

As a child, I remember having terribly painful compression episodes multiple times during take-offs and landings.

Like flaming lances of searing, screaming pain, painful.

I'd never take off without chewing gum to desperately try and equalize things.

Ever.

As an adult?

Never happens.


[edit]
(Which isn't to say that I approach, or rationalize, my way through the pain today. I just *never* feel pain during take-offs and landings, where I did when I was younger)

This is NOT true. It's rude even if the child doesn't make any noise?

If you are certain that the child will not make noise, then I guess it wouldn't be rude. However, the default assumption should be that the child will make noise.

tship is talking specifically about kids crying when the pressure changes during takeoffs and landings. It doesn't happen with all kids, but it does seem to happen to a lot of the toddler set- it seems like they get really scared by the pain in their ears and freak out. Which is totally understandable.

That's right. For some children, that crying continues through the whole flight.

Votto has 3 RBIs tonight on 2 doubles. One because Prince Fielder can't catch a one hopper hit right at him. The other double was a 120 ft pop fly down the LF line.

I guess the baseball gods hate Glen Beck.

If you are certain that the child will not make noise, then I guess it wouldn't be rude. However, the default assumption should be that the child will make noise.

You have been told repeatedly that isn't true (at least no more noise than any given passenger).

Again, the only person who's getting something out of a family vacation on a plane ride is the parents--they're getting their preferred destination. If the kids are 1 and 2, they don't really know what's going on, and they don't like the process of air travel (not that anyone does, really). Now, you feel like it's worth it to you to be rude to everyone around you and hurt your kids ears because you really want to go to your preferred destination.

As a parent, I've got to say that I never know what is going to be good for my child and what is going to hurt them. That makes me sound like a terrible parent, but it's true. I have a pretty good guess a lot of the time, but I'm often surprised when she reacts the opposite of what I expect. We took her on a car vacation this spring, and she responded very poorly...and regressed in many ways for a month thereafter. I took her on another vacation this month which involved airplanes. Some of the moments in the airplane (and the rest of the trip) were tough, but on the whole, the vacation put her in situations that were challenging for her and she has made some tremendous developmental leaps. I had no way of knowing either of those would happen before hand. Both kinds of vacations hurt her in many ways, because she was put in situations where she was expected to tolerate/embrace something new. The airplane trip was the best thing for her development that has happened in a long time. I believed that it would be good for her to go on that trip to get to spend time with her aunt and uncle, and would be worth the trade off of travel stress. As it turned out, it was good for her development in many ways. What is in the kids interest isn't always obvious.

Of the 6 flights I've taken with my 3 year old, she's never had ear problems.

this has to be a record on double posting. 6 hours baby.

I guess the baseball gods hate Glen Beck.

St. Louis was just shut out for the second night in a row, by the Astros. With the Reds' victory, they're now 6 games off the pace.

Who cannot but see the Hand of Providence in this?

I don't think anyone can see it since it appears to be shoved up the collective arses of the cardinals.

I am sure there are many kids that simply cannot handle it, but my guess is, looking at all of the other kids on planes who seem to do just fine like mine does, that they are a small minority.

I agree. The problem is not "kids." The problem is "kids that have crappy parents who don't properly control them."

I never suggested that you shouldn't bring a child on a plane or into a restaurant. I suggested that you shouldn't bring a child on a plane or into a restaurant until you have good reason to believe that the child is mature enough to behave appropriately (or, in the case of a restaurant, you can remove the child if there's an issue). This is out of consideration in part for the child's safety (running in the aisles of a plane or in a restaurant is asking for trouble), and also for the other people that are sharing your space.

If a kid is crying for 10 minutes during takeoff and landing because his ears hurt, then he's not a problem at all. It's irritating because the sound of a child crying is genetically designed to make adults miserable so that they do something about it, but I can take a few minutes of nuisance. My problem is when the adults that are with the child don't do something about it.

St. Louis was just shut out for the second night in a row, by the Astros. With the Reds' victory, they're now 6 games off the pace.

The lead is seven Srul.

Took all three kids on a trip to Baltimore a few years ago to meet mom, who was already there for a conference (so our hotel and her airfare was paid for, as was mine, making it a rare affordable vacation for us). It was the youngest's (3 or 4 at the time) first flight, and this one was miserable. Freak April snowstorm turned what should have been a two-hour flight into a 7-hour nightmare, including changing planes and sitting for at least two hours on the tarmac for deicing and other things.

When we finally landed, three fellow passengers approached me to express amazement at how well behaved my kids had been throughout the ordeal, with two noting they had handled it better than most of the adults.

The point: My kids are really cool and this thread gave me a chance to brag about them.

I hope they're well dressed.