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Wednesday, October 16, 2013

Stop Trying To Make Cardinals Hatred Happen. It’s Not Going To Happen.

Who could ever hate us? We are so awesome and we are even polite enough to let everyone know it!

A few weeks ago I met a senior vice president at a DC public relations firm. It being the post-season, we got talking baseball. He’s a huge fan. Season tickets to the Nationals. Weekend season tickets to the Orioles. He even moved to the Navy Yard area of DC so he could walk to games.

When I told him I’m a die-hard St. Louis Cardinals fan, the mood shifted. “I loathe the Cardinals,” he said. “That’s impossible,” I replied. Nobody hates the Cardinals. We’re a well-run organization with strong values. Our fans are the best in baseball. Hating the Cardinals is like punching your mother. Even if you were tempted, you just wouldn’t do it.

But that Sunday at our church in Virginia, I was talking to the kindergarten teacher at our Lutheran school. She’s a die-hard St. Louis Cardinals fan. She introduced me to a new mother at church whose allegiance to the Cards was showcased on the diaper bag she was carrying around. As we all chatted about the Pirates series, the kindergarten teacher’s husband (a Nationals fan) interjected that he hated us and the Cardinals.

I found it jarring. Two people in the same week saying something I’d never heard in more than three decades of being a Cardinals fan….

And, yes, it is frustrating to see a team play as well as the Cardinals do, with such a great team relationship as they have, year after year — if it’s not your team. No one says you have to love them. But you can’t hate them. It just reflects poorly on you. If the Cards were cheating their way to these victories, if they were buying them, if they were rude on and off the field … then fine. But in the absence of that, hatred is not a healthy option….

If you hate the Cardinals because you need a few more months to recover from them beating your team, that’s fine. But if you hate the Cardinals because, like Drew Magary, you hate Midwesterners and their casseroles and churchgoing, you may want to reconsider.

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: October 16, 2013 at 05:26 PM | 127 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: best fans in baseball, cardinals

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   1. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: October 16, 2013 at 06:00 PM (#4574907)
If you hate the Cardinals because you need a few more months to recover from them beating your team, that’s fine. But if you hate the Cardinals because, like Drew Magary, you hate Midwesterners and their casseroles and churchgoing,

Both of these seem like pretty good reason to hate
   2. Bob Tufts Posted: October 16, 2013 at 06:05 PM (#4574912)
But I like KC and do not like St. Louis - and that includes the town, people and teams.
   3. Sleepy supports unauthorized rambling Posted: October 16, 2013 at 06:10 PM (#4574922)
FWIW, I'm still angry at the Braves over the way the 1996 NLCS ended, so I can understand Nats fans pain. And even to some extent Braves fans, Pirates fans, etc.

Strangely I'm not bitter towards the Giants over last year. Funny how these things work.
   4. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: October 16, 2013 at 06:13 PM (#4574930)
Wait, isn't Drew Magary a midwesterner? I thought he lives in Minnesota. At the very least he's lived there. He's a #### writer with sub-Bleacher Report talent, but he's still a midwesterner.

And this article just makes me hate the Cardinals more.

Well then! Now don’t get me wrong. We all find East Coast elitist sneering to be persuasive, lacking in any sort of insecurity, and totally charming.


#### off, flyover state.

This whole article is every single thing that makes the Cardinals insufferable.
   5. Home Run Teal & Black Black Black Gone! Posted: October 16, 2013 at 06:15 PM (#4574931)
Any fan base that considers their own fanship a sign of moral superiority is very, very easy to dislike. Hello, Cardinals, Red Sox and Cubs fans.
   6. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: October 16, 2013 at 06:20 PM (#4574938)
Wait, are you a Yankees fan T&B? Because they definitely deserve inclusion in that list.
   7. Steve Treder Posted: October 16, 2013 at 06:21 PM (#4574939)
This whole article is every single thing that makes the Cardinals insufferable.

Absolutely.
   8. AJMcCringleberry Posted: October 16, 2013 at 06:22 PM (#4574941)
Hating the Cardinals is what any good person does.
   9. Shibal Posted: October 16, 2013 at 06:23 PM (#4574943)
I don't think too many people loathe the Cardinals. They just loathe the city.

Loathe is a harsh word though. Maybe pity is the right one to use. People living in St. Louis either count down the days they can move to Chicago, or just wish they could move there.

It's kind of sad, so it is nice that the people there have something to enjoy.
   10. Canker Soriano Posted: October 16, 2013 at 06:27 PM (#4574948)
I have no problem hating the Cardinals. Lived in St Louis for years, hated them then. Moved away, still hate them. Love the Midwest, like the Royals and KC, Chicago, Minneapolis, Milwaukee... but hate the Cardinals.

The Cardinals are that smug guy you know who does things well and will let you know about it... not overtly, but in a way that still screams "look at how awesome I am". They're that guy you'd really love to punch in the face one day, or who you secretly chuckle at when he bombs the big meeting or his kid gets knocked out in the spelling bee. They're the franchise equivalent of Steve Garvey.
   11. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: October 16, 2013 at 06:35 PM (#4574959)
The Cardinals' excellence is wasted on their fans, who would love them even if they sucked.

Boo and hiss a little, you repressed weenie doormats.
   12. Home Run Teal & Black Black Black Gone! Posted: October 16, 2013 at 06:35 PM (#4574960)
Not a Yankees fan. You can call Yankees fans a lot of things, but I don't think they widely believe that _the very act of rooting for the Yankees_ is a sign of superiority. They just think the Yankees are better than your team.
   13. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: October 16, 2013 at 06:40 PM (#4574970)
You must not live in New York, T & B.

edit: I see you live in NYC. How have you never encountered any of the many thousands of Yankees fans who think that all things Yankee are the epitome of class, which by extension makes themselves great people for rooting for the Yankees?
   14. Balkroth Posted: October 16, 2013 at 06:41 PM (#4574972)
The city sucks, and was rated as one of the most depressed cities around recently. So we have to like the cardinals if you live in the city, their isn't much else to do, well besides all the awesome free stuff.

The rest of the midwest is all cause of kmox and it's 50kw broadcast tower for years. People in mid missouri may not understand it though.
   15. SouthSideRyan Posted: October 16, 2013 at 06:45 PM (#4574978)
This whole article is every single thing that makes the Cardinals insufferable.


Seriously, the excerpt reads like it's from the Onion.

ETA: The title of the article is from Mean Girls where Lacey Chabert's character is trying to make the word "fetch" happen. Later in the film, the scene below happens when all the girls are apologizing for their misdeeds and it's pretty appropriate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnsMCnAxxzo

Shut up, it's a good movie.
   16. God Posted: October 16, 2013 at 06:51 PM (#4574989)
It already has happened. Been happening for years. But if it hadn't, the existence of this article would be good enough reason to start.
   17. Natty Fan Posted: October 16, 2013 at 06:58 PM (#4575001)
Let me be clear -- I don't hate the Cardinals. I would, however, take some small pleasure in watching them fall short of the World Series this year because I've personally encountered more and more Cardinals fans* (especially since last year's NLDS victory over the Nats) that espouse the following:

1. The Cardinals' success comes from their virtuous actions (they spend wisely, draft smartly, play the "right" way), and, more importantly,

2. The Cardinals' virtuous actions are actually a reflection of their humble, sainted and knowledgeable fans.

Essentially, a lot of Cardinal fans honestly believe that a team of multimillionaire professional athletes has been molded into winners by the passive influence of the "Best Fans in Baseball"(TM) and their midwestern values.

This obnoxious, passive-aggressive humble-bragging is perfectly reflected in this article ("...the organization and community of St. Louis does aim to promote good sportsmanship, a value the club has spent many decades cultivating." Ack. Really?). It's a particular phenomenon I've only seen from fans of three professional sports teams: the Cardinals, the Green Bay Packers and the Pittsburgh Steelers. I have no bad feelings for Adam Wainwright or Carlos Beltran or Yadier Molina (or Aaron Rodgers, or Troy Polamalu) -- I like all those guys. But when fans of those teams play the "We're Just Better People" card ... yeah, I get a little kick out of seeing those teams lose.**

* Disclaimer #1: I've never seen this behavior from any Cardinals fan on BBTF.
** Disclaimer #2: I don't think the Cards are going to lose this year, so the joke's on me, right? I will , however, be very happy to see Carlos Beltran get a ring.
   18. Pat Rapper's Delight Posted: October 16, 2013 at 07:06 PM (#4575023)
Was BFiB™ accepted as "fact" before Joe Buck started repeating it as Gospel Truth on FOX telecasts? I don't have any recollection of it before then.

Joe Buck, who grew up in...... St. Louis, watching his dad call games forever for...... St. Louis.
   19. SouthSideRyan Posted: October 16, 2013 at 07:12 PM (#4575045)
IIRC, BFIB came about from a Sporting News Article where they named St. Louis the best sports city(or maybe their fans the best fans) in an article that they ran every year(with almost always varying cities) Cardinals fans co-opted it as their own and haven't let it die.
   20. Sleepy supports unauthorized rambling Posted: October 16, 2013 at 07:19 PM (#4575087)
RC, BFIB came about from a Sporting News Article where they named St. Louis the best sports city(or maybe their fans the best fans) in an article that they ran every year (with almost always varying cities) Cardinals fans co-opted it as their own and bitter fans of lesser teams haven't let it die.


fixed.
   21. Bourbon Samurai in Asia Posted: October 16, 2013 at 07:21 PM (#4575097)
#### Pete Kozma
   22. Howie Menckel Posted: October 16, 2013 at 07:24 PM (#4575102)

it's really this......

"you could never make up for what happened in the 1985 World Series — literally the worst call in sports history —"

..... that makes Cardinals fans so loathsome.

Up 3-2 in the World Series, leading by a run in the 9th inning of Game 6 - and one umpiring call lands Jorge Orta on first base against their closer. That's it. 3 outs to go, runner is 3 bases away from even tying the game - but the Cardinals #### the bed the rest of the 9th inning, then don't even bother to show up in Game 7, practically, for what seemed to be the express purpose of earning the privilege of being able to whine about it for all of eternity.

and "literally the worst call in sports history" ? - the douche meter just exploded.

   23. Tripon Posted: October 16, 2013 at 07:25 PM (#4575103)
This whole article is reason number one why people should hate the Cardinals and their fans.
   24. Spahn Insane Posted: October 16, 2013 at 07:27 PM (#4575107)
Hello, Cardinals, Red Sox and Cubs fans.

Cub fans tout their "moral superiority"? Really? I think Cards fans are pretty much unique in this regard, but your mileage, etc. Red Sox fans, post '04, are just Yankee fans with fewer rings and funnier accents.

What galls about the whole BFiB™ thing is this: anybody can be a "good fan" when your team wins all the time. It's the smug assumption that Cards fans' innate awesomeness has something to do with the product the franchise puts on the field that rankles.
   25. God Posted: October 16, 2013 at 07:30 PM (#4575110)
The Cardinals are easily the best franchise in baseball.

(At drinking and driving.)
   26. Spahn Insane Posted: October 16, 2013 at 07:31 PM (#4575113)
And what 22 said. Jeebus, you've only won about 20 division titles and a couple world series titles since the Denkinger call. Get over that #### already.

Of course, this was one instance where the fans WERE reflective of the team on the field, which showed up for game 7 acting like petulant, entitled children, with corresponding results.
   27. God Posted: October 16, 2013 at 07:36 PM (#4575120)
The Orta call robbed the Cardinals of one out. They only ever ended up getting one out in that ninth inning, and even that out -- a bunt -- was made on purpose by the other team. Even if Orta had been properly called out, that inning would have kept going until KC won. The Denkinger call didn't cost them ####.
   28. greenback calls it soccer Posted: October 16, 2013 at 07:36 PM (#4575121)
fixed.

You have a valid point, but the Cardinals have been using some version of BFIB as a marketing ploy for a while. Every sports franchise wants to make the community feel like it has a special connection with the team. The Cardinals have succeeded, in large part by winning a boat-load of games.
   29. Spahn Insane Posted: October 16, 2013 at 07:39 PM (#4575127)
The Orta call robbed the Cardinals of one out. They only ever ended up recording one out in that ninth inning, and even that out -- a bunt -- was made on purpose by the other team. Even if Orta had been called out, that inning would have kept going until KC won. The Orta call didn't cost them ####.

Well now, I wouldn't go that far, but they fell apart like a cheap toy immediately after the call, which can't be blamed on Don Denkinger. Clark's error, Porter's passed ball, etc. And of course, they didn't show up for Game 7 except for the purpose of getting Herzog and Andujar ejected.
   30. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: October 16, 2013 at 07:40 PM (#4575131)
For the record, I have been to St. Louis many times and I really like the city as a place to visit. I think its quite underrated.

RC, BFIB came about from a Sporting News Article where they named St. Louis the best sports city(or maybe their fans the best fans) in an article that they ran every year (with almost always varying cities) Cardinals fans co-opted it as their own


It should be noted that The Sporting News was based in....you guessed it, St. Louis!



I found it jarring. Two people in the same week saying something I’d never heard in more than three decades of being a Cardinals fan….


This is what is hilarious. Cardinals fans are always so shocked to find out that not everyone loves and admires them. I mean Yankees fans are loathed, but they own it. They love it. They call themselves the Evil Empire. Red Sox fans are pretty loathed now but I think most fans get why - they're successful.

Cardinals fans are the smart kid in the classroom who loves to tell everyone how smart he is and thinks by virtue of his intelligence, he must also be popular, then is stunned to find out everyone in the class secretly hates him.
   31. Srul Itza Posted: October 16, 2013 at 07:47 PM (#4575140)
I see you live in NYC. How have you never encountered any of the many thousands of Yankees fans who think that all things Yankee are the epitome of class, which by extension makes themselves great people for rooting for the Yankees?


BS. The line was "fanship [being] a sign of moral superiority." Yankee fans do not consider themselves morally superior. Socially, mentally, physically and financially superior, yes. But Morals? This is New York, home of Wall Street and Madison Avenue. Morals are for suckers.
   32. Tilden Katz Posted: October 16, 2013 at 07:50 PM (#4575149)
What do you expect from a website that posts stories like How Liberalism Destroyed the American Jew?
   33. smileyy Posted: October 16, 2013 at 08:02 PM (#4575164)
(Removed due to the fallibility of human memory.)
   34. Jay Z Posted: October 16, 2013 at 08:09 PM (#4575167)
Who would be the least hated team? I can't imagine anyone hating the Padres. Tiny media market, West Coast. Dodgers don't seem to take them seriously. Chargers are the tragic team in that town. Padres snuck in a couple WS, more than their history probably deserves.
   35. Greg K Posted: October 16, 2013 at 08:12 PM (#4575173)
When I told him I’m a die-hard St. Louis Cardinals fan, the mood shifted. “I loathe the Cardinals,” he said. “That’s impossible,” I replied. Nobody hates the Cardinals. We’re a well-run organization with strong values. Our fans are the best in baseball.

This guy just oozes self-awareness.
   36. God Posted: October 16, 2013 at 08:25 PM (#4575193)
She's at least self-aware enough to know that she's not a guy.
   37. Bob Tufts Posted: October 16, 2013 at 08:29 PM (#4575199)
Wilbert Robinson was willingly "goin' to Kansas City".
St. Louis is famous for Lewis and Clark leaving it.
   38. The elusive Robert Denby Posted: October 16, 2013 at 08:31 PM (#4575200)
As I've told my friends who are Cardinal fans, I admire the franchise and the way it's run. The thing I hate is the sanctimonious blowhards who pretend like they're a part of the team because they bought a Yadier Molina jersey.
   39. Greg K Posted: October 16, 2013 at 08:54 PM (#4575250)
She's at least self-aware enough to know that she's not a guy.

Hey, being totally unaware of other people (and their genders) is totally fine!
   40. Tripon Posted: October 16, 2013 at 08:55 PM (#4575253)
4. Jay Z Posted: October 16, 2013 at 08:09 PM (#4575167)
Who would be the least hated team? I can't imagine anyone hating the Padres. Tiny media market, West Coast. Dodgers don't seem to take them seriously. Chargers are the tragic team in that town. Padres snuck in a couple WS, more than their history probably deserves.


The A's or the Pirates, if I had to make a bet. The A's get that small town feel, while I don't see how anybody can hate the Pirates after nearly three decades of futility, and finally making it to the post season this year.
   41. Howie Menckel Posted: October 16, 2013 at 09:13 PM (#4575288)

I'd go Padres also.
Some Pirates fans are Steelers fans and/or Penguins fans, and therefore will be despised.
Some (?) A's fans are also Raiders fans, so ditto.

But San Diegans - they got nuthin. well, except perfect weather.
   42. Rusty Mitchener Posted: October 16, 2013 at 09:17 PM (#4575296)
On BFIB:

I recall it starting during the late 90s Big Mac Trade/Big Mac Re-Signing/HR Chase and Pete Gammons being the one who started it. The media, the organization, and some fans latched onto it after that.

Nowadays, 90% of the time BFIB is mentioned it's in a derogatory way to take a shot at Cardinals fans. It's played out.

It's always funny how those that rightfully call it preposterous that one fan-base can broadly be painted the best, has no problem broadly insulting that fan-base. You're just as stupid as the BFIBs.
   43. Bug Selig Posted: October 16, 2013 at 09:27 PM (#4575310)
I don't think too many people loathe the Cardinals.


First time around here?
   44. Bob Tufts Posted: October 16, 2013 at 09:38 PM (#4575333)
I do give STL credit for having the best home uniforms in MLB. Classic!
   45. SouthSideRyan Posted: October 16, 2013 at 09:48 PM (#4575364)
I do give STL credit for having the best home uniforms in MLB. Classic!


Tigers.
   46. Rough Carrigan Posted: October 16, 2013 at 10:05 PM (#4575398)
Their fans are a bit too self congratulatory but it's a hell of a well run organization for an outfit named after an Italian actress from the 1960's.
   47. Kurt Posted: October 16, 2013 at 10:22 PM (#4575420)
Moneyball disqualifies the A's; they're probably in the top half of the league hate-wise.

I think the Padres are a good choice.
   48. JE (Jason Epstein) Posted: October 16, 2013 at 10:51 PM (#4575483)
Moneyball disqualifies the A's; they're probably in the top half of the league hate-wise.

Disagree. Nearly everyone who hates the book takes it out on any fan of the game perceived to be a stathead, not the organization or its fans.

I found Mollie's piece entertaining, but concur with some here that it's bound to increase hatred of the Cards, not lessen it.
   49. Ben V-L Posted: October 16, 2013 at 11:08 PM (#4575524)
Ten reasons why baseball fans should like the Cardinals:

1. They win without being in the top 10 in salary.

2. They win in spite of being in a decaying, rustbelt city.

3. They draft well and develop well, playing with a team stocked full of rookies and homegrown talent.

4. They knew when to cut strings with Pujols.

5. They make smart personnel moves: moving Carpenter up the defensive spectrum to 2B. Doesn't happen often, and this was a spectacular success.

6. They make smart personnel moves: assessing Berkman and Beltran better than their competitors did.

7. They make smart personnel moves: signing Molina to 5 years at 15M per seemed like too much. And then he upped his game to become a bargain. Not sure how that worked, but what the hell.

8. Mike Matheny is a cool guy who isn't the slightest bit like Tony LaRussa.

9. They use personnel wisely: Matheny's juggling of playing time seems to have helped keep the gimpy Beltran, Holliday, and Craig in the lineup most of the season.

10. They use personnel wisely: Matheny's use of young pitchers has been impressive. Nearly all are delivering. No one is overused. Wacha gets the nod in the postseason. Very cool.

And the thing common to all this is Mozeliak. He may be the best GM in the game right now. Isn't this better than watching a team win because they have double the payroll of their competitors?

   50. God Posted: October 16, 2013 at 11:20 PM (#4575545)
I do give STL credit for having the best home uniforms in MLB. Classic!


Dodgers.

Actually, you could make a pretty good argument that the four best home uniforms in baseball belong to the four teams who are still playing.
   51. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: October 16, 2013 at 11:29 PM (#4575569)
Disagree. Nearly everyone who hates the book takes it out on any fan of the game perceived to be a stathead, not the organization or its fans.

Disagree. Every time the A's get knocked out of the playoffs, or miss the playoffs entirely, we get inundated with tons of gleeful articles about it. Lot's of people are rooting against the A's. Hard.
   52. SoSH U at work Posted: October 16, 2013 at 11:30 PM (#4575572)
Actually, you could make a pretty good argument that the four best home uniforms in baseball belong to the four teams who are still playing.


I was thinking that the other night. I think the Cards/Dodgers/Tigers are all locks for that distinction, while the Sox would battle with the Yankees for the final ticket.

Oh, and my primary objection to Ben's list is I don't think St. Louis is a Rust Belt city.
   53. WSPanic Posted: October 16, 2013 at 11:38 PM (#4575584)
Ten reasons why baseball fans should like the Cardinals:


Sometimes it's like they don't even know they're doing it...
   54. JE (Jason Epstein) Posted: October 16, 2013 at 11:43 PM (#4575591)
Every time the A's get knocked out of the playoffs, or miss the playoffs entirely, we get inundated with tons of gleeful articles about it. Lot's of people are rooting against the A's. Hard.

You are referencing a gaggle of idiotic sportswriters, Fancy Pants, not legions of baseball fans. And, other than one or two BTF bucketheads from 2010-11, I now of no one who chortles whenever the A's don't make the postseason.
   55. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: October 16, 2013 at 11:59 PM (#4575599)
Perhaps, but since the argument is about which team is least hated, it doesn't take much to remove a team from the discussion.
   56. Long Time Listener, First Time Caller Posted: October 17, 2013 at 12:03 AM (#4575601)
#49:

On the one hand, I don't like seeing teams buy their way to a championship.

On the other hand, I've never seen a Dodgers fan make an obnoxious top ten list about how it is everyone's duty as a good fan to admire the Dodgers

In conclusion, go Dodgers. Tie-breaker was: likelihood of a Dodger player driving drunk and killing someone (probably approximately the national rate) much much lower than likelihood of a Cardinal player doing the same (even money)
   57. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: October 17, 2013 at 12:03 AM (#4575603)
4. They knew when to cut strings with Pujols.

Or they dodged a bullet when he didn't take their offer.
Oh, and my primary objection to Ben's list is I don't think St. Louis is a Rust Belt city.

It isn't? What is it then? My eyes have seen disappearing manufacturing jobs all around me. The city of St Louis proper is a hellhole with a school system that the state of Missouri deemed unworthy of certification mostly because a cool 9% of kids read at grade level. It's not that the state has super high standards either. Kids who go to the city schools are almost certain to be behind the rest of the country in education, that is if they survive the deadly surroundings. The formerly booming North Side is dead since the loss of manufacturing jobs here. If this isn't a Rust Belt city, what is?
I was thinking that the other night. I think the Cards/Dodgers/Tigers are all locks for that distinction, while the Sox would battle with the Yankees for the final ticket.

Really? There are many things to like about the Red Sox but the uniforms aren't among them. Clearly the Green and Gold Home Whites of the A's are among the Top 4 (OK I don't expect many to agree on this)
   58. SoSH U at work Posted: October 17, 2013 at 12:17 AM (#4575609)
If this isn't a Rust Belt city, what is?


Cities in the Rust Belt. The Rust Belt is the steel-industry intensive cities around the Great Lakes and parts of the Northeast. That's just what it is. St. Louis may have suffered a somewhat similar fate as Cleveland, Detroit, etc., (then again, so have a lot of places) but it's not generally considered part of the Rust Belt.

Really? There are many things to like about the Red Sox but the uniforms aren't among them. Clearly the Green and Gold Home Whites of the A's are among the Top 4 (OK I don't expect many to agree on this)


I'm not the biggest fan, but the Sox home unis generally score well among observers of all things sartorial. But I'm with you, I'd actually choose the A's over both NY and Boston (had forgotten about Oakland earlier).

   59. Shibal Posted: October 17, 2013 at 12:18 AM (#4575610)
St. Louis does have some good strip joints, gotta give them credit for that.

Wait, that's East St. Louis.

Never mind.
   60. base ball chick Posted: October 17, 2013 at 12:28 AM (#4575615)
i'm surprised about the cardinal fan hate goin on

the BFIB thingy is silly like the pink hats or yankee fans, but gotta tell you that when i did go to baseball games, i mean when houston had baseball games, cards fans were the nicest visiting fans.

i would think that the "astros" have much less hate than the padres because no one knows they exist.

except bitter, hate filled ex-astros fans who want jim crane and bud selig and nolan ryan tarred and feathered and rode outta town on a rail
   61. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: October 17, 2013 at 12:28 AM (#4575616)
it's really this......

"you could never make up for what happened in the 1985 World Series — literally the worst call in sports history —"

..... that makes Cardinals fans so loathsome.

Up 3-2 in the World Series, leading by a run in the 9th inning of Game 6 - and one umpiring call lands Jorge Orta on first base against their closer. That's it. 3 outs to go, runner is 3 bases away from even tying the game - but the Cardinals #### the bed the rest of the 9th inning, then don't even bother to show up in Game 7, practically, for what seemed to be the express purpose of earning the privilege of being able to whine about it for all of eternity.


I don't have anything particular against the Cardinals in general, but that 1985 team was far and away the most loathsome team in history. You couldn't match the combined creepiness of Clark, Andujar, Tudor, Coleman, and Herzog in a million years.
   62. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: October 17, 2013 at 12:35 AM (#4575618)
I don't have anything particular against the Cardinals in general, but that 1985 team was far and away the most loathsome team in history. You couldn't match the combined creepiness of Clark, Andujar, Tudor, Coleman, and Herzog in a million years.

they were so loathsome that an inanimate fan* attacked Tudor

*fan meaning the metal kind with rotating blades, not a person
   63. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: October 17, 2013 at 12:36 AM (#4575621)
Nope, not one iota of racism in this Post-Dispatch columnist's effort:
Hey, baseball is the primary religion in Our Town. Out here it’s a place to be seen, maybe flash some gang signs on the matrix and bat a beach ball.
   64. Zach Posted: October 17, 2013 at 12:39 AM (#4575622)
It isn't? What is it then? My eyes have seen disappearing manufacturing jobs all around me. The city of St Louis proper is a hellhole with a school system that the state of Missouri deemed unworthy of certification mostly because a cool 9% of kids read at grade level. It's not that the state has super high standards either. Kids who go to the city schools are almost certain to be behind the rest of the country in education, that is if they survive the deadly surroundings. The formerly booming North Side is dead since the loss of manufacturing jobs here. If this isn't a Rust Belt city, what is?

That's what I don't get about the "midwestern wholesomeness" angle. Seems like you should fall out of the top 10 in murder rate for a couple of years before you start going Norman Rockwell on everybody.
   65. Zach Posted: October 17, 2013 at 12:40 AM (#4575623)
they were so loathsome that an inanimate fan* attacked Tudor

*fan meaning the metal kind with rotating blades, not a person


Best fan in baseball.
   66. SoSH U at work Posted: October 17, 2013 at 12:42 AM (#4575624)
You couldn't match the combined creepiness of Clark, Andujar, Tudor, Coleman, and Herzog in a million years.


I don't know, I think you can make a good argument that the creepiness was matched in 999,999 years less than that.

The team that supplanted the Cards as NL pennant winners had no shortage of creeps (Dykstra, Backman, Mitchell and Knight, heading the cast, with Straw, Doc, Carter and Hernandez appearing on some lists as well.
   67. boteman is not here 'til October Posted: October 17, 2013 at 01:11 AM (#4575634)
"Creepy" is a term that I associate with tweens, teens, and 20-somethings to express their fear at encountering something new to them. What do you old codgers mean by it?

For myself, I just hate the Cardinals for ruining my sports wet dream in the NLDS last year, by throwing the shortcomings of the Nationals right in their face.

I prefer to avoid specific people who have done me wrong rather than labeling wide swaths of same. Generalizing the attributes of a few to the entire group to which they belong is much like what was named in post #63. I thought that was frowned upon here?
   68. SoSH U at work Posted: October 17, 2013 at 01:31 AM (#4575638)
"Creepy" is a term that I associate with tweens, teens, and 20-somethings to express their fear at encountering something new to them. What do you old codgers mean by it?


I was just using Andy's term. I wouldn't call the 1985 Cards or 1986 Mets creepy, but whatever they are, they're not far off from one another.
   69. DFA Posted: October 17, 2013 at 01:50 AM (#4575640)
Any fanbase that anoints itself as the best fans in baseball deserves to be hated. St. Louis, like every other city in 'Merica, loves a winner. They are no better or worse than any other place. They have a terrific front office, like a handful of other teams. Accident of birth, whatever.
   70. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: October 17, 2013 at 06:13 AM (#4575658)
you hate Midwesterners and their casseroles and churchgoing


I don't hate midwesterners for their churchgoing. I hate them for their dishonesty, censoriousness, and emphasis on conformity.
   71. just plain joe Posted: October 17, 2013 at 07:45 AM (#4575664)
Wilbert Robinson was willingly "goin' to Kansas City".


I'm pretty sure it was Wilbert Harrison who was goin' to Kansas City. That's okay, when you get to be our age (60+), it is difficult to remember everything, there is only so much room for stuff in the brain.
   72. AROM Posted: October 17, 2013 at 07:57 AM (#4575668)
I don't hate the Cards, but I can understand why some people do. The attitude of this writer is particularly loathesome.

"I don't have anything particular against the Cardinals in general, but that 1985 team was far and away the most loathsome team in history. You couldn't match the combined creepiness of Clark, Andujar, Tudor, Coleman, and Herzog in a million years."

Clark I get. Coleman had that firecracker incident, so yeah. Andujar just seemed like a weird but entertaining character. What's so bad about Tudor? I don't remember anything pro or con about him off the field. He was just a guy who had no fastball but really, really knew how to pitch.
   73. Bitter Mouse Posted: October 17, 2013 at 08:08 AM (#4575673)
you hate Midwesterners and their casseroles and churchgoing


In Minnesota they call it hot dish*, which is nearly enough reason to hate them right there.

* Casserole, not Church going. If they called church going "Hot Dish" that would be awesome. Not that I go to church.
   74. zonk Posted: October 17, 2013 at 08:29 AM (#4575679)
I hate the Cardinals.

I hate the Cardinals more than I hate the Yankees, the Cowboys, the Fighting Irish, the Dodgers, and the Mets combined. I respect the Cardinals as an organization and I love Stan Musial like any rational American, and I actually do like the Cardinal fans as people that I 'know' digitally on BBTF - but I hate the Cardinals.

I believe Busch Stadium should be bulldozed, preferably while the 50k most earnest and morally superior Cardinals fans are inside. I think the earth should then be salted after the demolition. I hope some sort of supernatural or metaphysical advance is made whereby it is proven that the Cardinals' historic success is due to their double-dealings with beelzebub... I hope it involves sexual relations similar to those that South Park at one time liked to show between Saddam Hussein and Satan. I hope this causes MLB to vacate every Cardinal title in its history. I will then drink the tears of Cardinal fans, young and old.

I hate the Cardinals. It's the easiest thing I've ever done.
   75. Shibal Posted: October 17, 2013 at 08:32 AM (#4575681)
WTF is racist about that comment?

Nope, not one iota of racism in this Post-Dispatch columnist's effort:

Hey, baseball is the primary religion in Our Town. Out here it’s a place to be seen, maybe flash some gang signs on the matrix and bat a beach ball.


   76. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: October 17, 2013 at 08:43 AM (#4575687)
That's what I don't get about the "midwestern wholesomeness" angle. Seems like you should fall out of the top 10 in murder rate for a couple of years before you start going Norman Rockwell on everybody.

The people in the ballparks in places like St. Louis and Detroit aren't citizens of the central cities. They're suburbanites and outstaters.
   77. Smiling Joe Hesketh Posted: October 17, 2013 at 08:54 AM (#4575690)
Yup, over the past 2 weeks between articles like this and the Cardinals themselves acting like prissy insufferable asshats, I've got a good hate for them going.
   78. TDF, situational idiot Posted: October 17, 2013 at 09:00 AM (#4575693)
   79. SandyRiver Posted: October 17, 2013 at 09:05 AM (#4575694)
But San Diegans - they got nuthin. well, except perfect weather.


Only if "perfect" is equivalent to "boring" (or to "absent".) Give me distinct seasons any time, with bright fall colors and lots of winter snow.

My interest in baseball coincides with the final third of Musial's career, so I find it easy to like the Cardinals in general, and cannot understand why Zonk's opinion of today's team is so strongly opposite of his (appropriate) feelings toward The Man and his legacy. But then I'm not all that swift...
   80. J. Sosa Posted: October 17, 2013 at 09:18 AM (#4575700)
I didn't have any strong feelings one way or another about the Cardinals until La Russa. Since then the Cardinals have been near the top of teams I dislike the most.

I don't dislike the Yankees as much as I once did after George died. Kind of took the oomph out of it as did 2004. Somebody said they disliked the Rays more than the Yankees in another thread and most disagreed. I think that's a true statement for me as well. Maddon and the Rays irritate me as a Red Sox fan. I dislike their stadium, Maddon's smugness, the fact that an excellent team gets no support, and that they have been mostly better than the Red Sox lately despite budget constraints. Also Carl Crawford. Never forget Carl Crawford. I make no claims to rationality, but seriously. Carl Crawford. Non wife beating division, probably my least favorite Red Sox player of all time. Free agent, I get it, but at times I half thought he was more of a double agent.

I'd probably go Rays 1, Cardinals 2, and Yankees 3.
   81. Smiling Joe Hesketh Posted: October 17, 2013 at 09:20 AM (#4575702)

I believe Busch Stadium should be bulldozed, preferably while the 50k most earnest and morally superior Cardinals fans are inside. I think the earth should then be salted after the demolition.


Judging by the appearance of downtown St. Louis, some would say this has already been done.
   82. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: October 17, 2013 at 09:24 AM (#4575707)
I don't have anything particular against the Cardinals in general, but that 1985 team was far and away the most loathsome team in history. You couldn't match the combined creepiness of Clark, Andujar, Tudor, Coleman, and Herzog in a million years.

they were so loathsome that an inanimate fan* attacked Tudor

*fan meaning the metal kind with rotating blades, not a person


And don't forget the Busch Stadium tarp that crippled Coleman on behalf of fans all over the nation.

-----------------------------------

You couldn't match the combined creepiness of Clark, Andujar, Tudor, Coleman, and Herzog in a million years.

I don't know, I think you can make a good argument that the creepiness was matched in 999,999 years less than that.

The team that supplanted the Cards as NL pennant winners had no shortage of creeps (Dykstra, Backman, Mitchell and Knight, heading the cast, with Straw, Doc, Carter and Hernandez appearing on some lists as well.


Straw, Doc and Hernandez were merely dime a dozen druggies of the sort found on scores of teams throughout the years, and Mitchell gained total redemption with his Vicks Vap-o-Rub commment**. I'll grant you Dykstra even with his incredible entertainment value to BTF, and yeah, Carter can be a bit Garveyish, but you'll have to bring me up to speed about Backman and Knight. Collectively the Mets were arrogant, but that hardly sets them apart from the crowd.

But other than Andujar, which of those five Cardinals had any redeeming value other than baseball talent? If you want to make it a close call, then surely Herzog's neverending whining about one blown call has to be the tiebreaker.

**He said he used to swallow it, rather than rub it on, because "It makes me feel like a champion." Now how in the hell can you hate a guy like that?

-----------------------------------

What's so bad about Tudor?

Nothing other than that he was a thoroughly sour human being who walked around with a permanent giant chip on his shoulder. His personality would have made Joe Dimaggio look like Ernie Banks by comparison.
   83. Rants Mulliniks Posted: October 17, 2013 at 09:41 AM (#4575715)
He said he used to swallow it


The guy that invented Vaseline, which is just Vap-o-Rub without the menthol and camphor, ate a spoonful of it everyday and lived to be 96!
   84. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: October 17, 2013 at 09:43 AM (#4575716)
WTF is racist about that comment?

Nope, not one iota of racism in this Post-Dispatch columnist's effort:

Hey, baseball is the primary religion in Our Town. Out here it’s a place to be seen, maybe flash some gang signs on the matrix and bat a beach ball.


Us wholesome, primarily white Midwesterners actually watch the baseball game. You hedonistic West Coasters just play around and some of you black fellers flash gang signs because that's all I know about LA is that you have gangs.

I'd say like the Padres or Rockies are least hated. Mariners might be up there. A's are still kinda hated from when they were a dominant team in the late 80s and some fans may still hate them from the 70s. Oakland teams are just easy to hate.

I don't get all the St. Louis city bashing. The city itself has hallowed out some, but the downtown has come back quite a bit. The city suffers by being landlocked, so its city proper population is quite small, but the metro area has been growing, unlike other Rust Belt towns. The city still has some cool areas like Central West End, Forest Park, Soulard, the Landing is okay I guess, and the Bottle District next to the stadium is finally on track I believe. Its a nice town, just snotty fans.
   85. Kurt Posted: October 17, 2013 at 09:48 AM (#4575719)
I'd say like the Padres or Rockies are least hated.


The Rockies have the Christian thing working against them. What about the Royals?
   86. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: October 17, 2013 at 09:53 AM (#4575722)
I'd say like the Padres or Rockies are least hated. Mariners might be up there.

I'll bet if you could rank teams according to how much they're hated, it would almost perfectly correlate to their success over the past few decades. It's pretty hard to work up much hatred towards teams that make the postseason about once or twice a decade.
   87. Shibal Posted: October 17, 2013 at 09:58 AM (#4575728)
Ah, the infamous 'dog whistle' where everything said by a white guy is racist code. I get it now.

I'm going to go with the Twins or Padres for least hated. The Rockies have the altitude-related stats which annoy me so I can't throw them into the mix.
   88. Shibal Posted: October 17, 2013 at 09:58 AM (#4575730)
The Rockies have the Christian thing working against them. What about the Royals?


David Glass. Walmart. Royals.
   89. tshipman Posted: October 17, 2013 at 10:02 AM (#4575732)
I'm a Giants fan, and I have a real conundrum in that my utter loathing for the Cardinals is making me consider rooting for the Dodgers to beat them.
   90. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: October 17, 2013 at 10:05 AM (#4575736)
What about the Royals?


Cardinals fans don't like us and some Yankees fans still hate us from the 70s.
   91. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: October 17, 2013 at 10:21 AM (#4575749)
you hate Midwesterners and their casseroles and churchgoing


Also, Magary stated that he disliked crappy church lunch casserole, not that he was opposed to church. Having been fed crappy church casserole on many occasions, I concur.
   92. zonk Posted: October 17, 2013 at 10:26 AM (#4575754)
I'm a Giants fan, and I have a real conundrum in that my utter loathing for the Cardinals is making me consider rooting for the Dodgers to beat them.


I understand it's hard... but it's the right thing to do. Never to the extent I hate the Cardinals, but once upon a time when the Astros weren't pitiful -- us Cubs fans used to have a near-term/short-term hatred for the Astros (as the Cubs/Astros were simultaneously battling in the NL Central).

Obviously, there was that dreadful WS that will not be mentioned from a few years back where the Astros played the White Sox. I found it necessary to put direct rivalries aside and focus on the most evil entity at hand, the White Sox... I was mostly hoping for an asteroid to impact the stadium before the series was decided, but that was a remote possibility.

I understand that the Cubs/Astros rivalry was rather limited in time/scope, and that the Dodgers/Giants rivalry/hatred is any many ways, more akin to the Cubs/Cardinals rivalry... and as such, you might very well be tempted to root for the Cardinals because of that.

However, I must plead with you to understand that the Cardinals are a far, far worse and more insidious evil. They are far, far more dangerous in the current chronology -- I mean, gunning for their 4th WS in 10 years?

In the near-term, the right thing to do is set aside the justified hatred for your ancient and eternal enemy and focus on hatred of the greater evil.... Think it like the time Hulk Hogan and Rowdy Roddy Piper teamed up or the Cylon rebels and Colonials getting together.... sometimes, such unthinkable - temporary - alliances are necessary. Sometimes you have to consider the basic needs of humanity and humankind -- the very planet -- in determining who to root for. Immediately after the next 2 games - you can go right back to wishing ill on the Dodgers... but for two more games, it is imperative that we as a nation come together in wishing the Cardinals ill. Do it for your children. Do it for your grandchildren.
   93. TDF, situational idiot Posted: October 17, 2013 at 10:42 AM (#4575767)
Stop Trying To Make Cardinals Hatred Happen. It’s Not Going To Happen.
As is quite clear here, and at the places the author frequents, and pretty much everywhere baseball fans congregate, no one is "trying" and it has already "happened":

People hate the Cardinals.
   94. Bitter Mouse Posted: October 17, 2013 at 10:45 AM (#4575769)
I'm a Giants fan, and I have a real conundrum in that my utter loathing for the Cardinals is making me consider rooting for the Dodgers to beat them.


No. I understand what zonk is saying above, but come on. If you are a SF Giants fan (and really, why would you lie) then you know these things to be true. 1) Hate is hard for residents of Northern California, it does not come naturally. 2) Southern California, and especially the Dodgers, exists just to harness and clarify the hate that is present.

Hey my three least favorite teams are Dodgers, Yankees, and then Cardinals. But really hate, that is reserved for Dodgers.
   95. SoSH U at work Posted: October 17, 2013 at 10:51 AM (#4575780)
I'll grant you Dykstra even with his incredible entertainment value to BTF, and yeah, Carter can be a bit Garveyish, but you'll have to bring me up to speed about Backman and Knight.


Backman? The DUI-drawing, deadbeat, domestic-violence suspect who lied to the Diamondbacks about his past and then whined that he's been treated unfairly because no one else will hire him to be their manager. You need a refresher course on that guy?

Mitchell has a healthy string of battery incidents that really rub out any Vapo Rub comments. Knight is just Tudor in different colors.
   96. zonk Posted: October 17, 2013 at 10:52 AM (#4575782)
You're either with us or with the Cardinals.
   97. Willard Baseball Posted: October 17, 2013 at 10:56 AM (#4575789)
What seems to be completely lost in this Cardinals BFIB claim is that their moral superiority must totally ignore drunk driving and marijuana use. You have LaRussa, Hancock, Kile, Freese, etc., with problems.

I live in Missouri, and to listen to the abuse that LaRussa took from these fans was amazing. According to many Sports Radio callers and fans I spoke/listened to, LaRussa was a terrible manager who did way too much and didn't know what he was doing.

The fans do actually believe they are part of the team. One fan I spoke to over the weekend claimed the team was always good because they only look for "high-character" guys. When I mentioned Shelby Miller's problems, he claimed that STL almost released him because of his drinking issues, and that they don't let him pitch in the playoffs because of his personal issues, and that is why they are so successful.

I would rather be around 50 Yankees fans than 5 STL fans.
   98. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: October 17, 2013 at 11:18 AM (#4575811)
Shelby Miller was in trouble for getting into a drunken fight, right? Developing prospects the right way! (Well, except the team did suspend him afterwards).
   99. Perry Posted: October 17, 2013 at 11:20 AM (#4575817)
The Rockies have the Christian thing working against them. What about the Royals?


The Rockies "Christian thing" is totally overblown from what I can tell. I mean, I've lived here 15 years, I read and hear about them just about every day, and until that first USA Today (I think) article hit in 2007 I literally had no idea they regarded themselves as any more "Christian" than any other team. Nor have I seen any sign of it since. They do seem to place an emphasis on having good "character" guys, and they definitely make an effort to be community oriented and fan friendly (all of which I appreciate), but as far as being overtly religious....Nah, not that I can see. If they are they're doing a pretty good job of keeping it under wraps.
   100. Perry Posted: October 17, 2013 at 11:27 AM (#4575829)
Wait, isn't Drew Magary a midwesterner? I thought he lives in Minnesota. At the very least he's lived there. He's a #### writer with sub-Bleacher Report talent, but he's still a midwesterner.


Magary lives in Maryland and went to college in Maine (after a year at Michigan). He's a Vikings fan, so maybe he lived there as a kid or something. I think he's a pretty good writer myself -- his book on parenting was quite funny. Haven't read his dystopian sci-fi novel but it got pretty good reviews.
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