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Sunday, May 06, 2012

Sun: DH Chris Davis pitches two scoreless innings as Orioles beat Red Sox in 17

When Orioles manager Buck Showalter penciled in Chris Davis – the team’s everyday first baseman – into the designated hitter spot for Sunday’s series finale against the Red Sox, he certainly couldn’t have anticipated where Davis would end up in the game.

But after a six–hour, seven-minute, 17-inning marathon at Fenway Park, Davis – who struck out five times in seven at-bats at the plate – turned out to be the most unlikeliest winning pitcher.

After the Orioles used all eight available relievers, Davis went to the mound and threw two scoreless innings, helping the Orioles to a 9-6 win over the Red Sox.

Center fielder Adam Jones, moments after playing a part in a game-saving defensive play in the 16th, hit a three-run homer off Darnell McDonald – the Red Sox’s DH – over the Green Monster in left field for his team-high eighth homer of the season.

The Orioles earned their first three-game sweep at Fenway Park in 18 years, but the better news out of Boston is that two struggling bats have suddenly come to life.

Baltimore’s win sealed their fifth straight win in Boston and their first three-game sweep of the Red Sox here since June 10-12, 1994.

After their second extra-inning win in three games here, the Orioles will arrive home from their six-game road trip to New York and Boston sitting atop the AL East standings with a 19-9 record, a half-game in front of the Rays, and tied for the best record in baseball going into Sunday night.

 

DKDC Posted: May 06, 2012 at 08:19 PM | 97 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: orioles, red sox

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   1. Dan Posted: May 06, 2012 at 09:02 PM (#4125030)
Adrian Gonzalez went 0-8 in this game, including striking out facing Davis in the 17th as the tying run.
   2. DKDC Posted: May 06, 2012 at 09:07 PM (#4125034)
Some fun facts:

The last time both teams put in positional players to pitch in the same game: Ty Cobb v George Sisler (1925)

The last American League positional player to switch to pitcher and win the game was.....Rocky Colavito (1968) (edited-thanks)

The last player to start in the lineup and get the win as a pitcher was....Babe Ruth
   3. UCCF Posted: May 06, 2012 at 09:08 PM (#4125035)
For those who didn't watch, Davis was a pretty damn good pitcher. He was hitting 91-92 on the gun, and the one he struck Saltalamacchia out on was a nice off-speed pitch.
   4. Jolly Old St. Nick Done Jumped The Ship Posted: May 06, 2012 at 09:08 PM (#4125036)
I wonder how many other winning pitchers have also struck out themselves five times in the same game, and I wonder how many other games have ever wound up with position players taking both the win and the loss.

And quiet as it's kept, the Orioles now have the best record in baseball. All I can say to that is "wow".

EDIT: Both a coke and a correction to DKDC. Colavito won that game as a Yankee in 1968, not 1958.
   5. DKDC Posted: May 06, 2012 at 09:11 PM (#4125037)
Adrian Gonzalez went 0-8 in this game, including striking out facing Davis in the 17th as the tying run.


Darnell McDonald had more negative WPA: he got the loss and grounded into a double play to end the game.

And I missed this live, but apparently Matt Wieters didn't appreciate the shoulder Byrd threw in the bottom of the 16th. I think you usually show the ball to the umpire...
   6. Jolly Old St. Nick Done Jumped The Ship Posted: May 06, 2012 at 09:15 PM (#4125039)
The last time both teams put in positional players to pitch in the same game: Ty Cobb v George Sisler (1925)

That must have been some game. 17 runs in an hour and 42 minutes. Cobb got the save and neither of them allowed a run.
   7. DKDC Posted: May 06, 2012 at 09:16 PM (#4125041)
For those who didn't watch, Davis was a pretty damn good pitcher. He was hitting 91-92 on the gun, and the one he struck Saltalamacchia out on was a nice off-speed pitch.


Davis said after the game that the off-speed was a split-finger. I think he struck out Gonzalez on the same pitch.

Davis did not have nearly as good stuff when pitching from the stretch. He lost a good 5 MPH and elevated the fastball.

And quiet as it's kept, the Orioles now have the best record in baseball. All I can say to that is "wow".


They don't have an off day for 18 days and they now have to face the Rangers for 4 at home, then the Rays for 3, then the Yankees for 2. All of this with a completely depleted bullpen. It won't last much longer, but it's been a blast.
   8. JE (Jason Epstein) Posted: May 06, 2012 at 09:19 PM (#4125043)
Position players pitched for both teams? Wow! Because the Os and Sox are traveling tonight I suspect the starting pitchers who were on their throw days were unavailable.
   9. ajnrules Posted: May 06, 2012 at 09:21 PM (#4125045)
Good job, Chris Davis! Way to represent Longview, TX!
   10. Bruce Markusen Posted: May 06, 2012 at 09:29 PM (#4125047)
I think it's an embarrassment for baseball that both teams went to position players in a game that was still up for grabs. I mean, the game went 17 innings, not 27 innings.

One would think that with 12-man pitching staffs, managers would be better prepared to go deeper into a game with real pitchers.
   11. Dale Sams Posted: May 06, 2012 at 09:29 PM (#4125048)
I saw the gapper and thought the guy on first would score easily....then I saw how slow he was running and thought "Oh, God, they arn't really going to send him are they? It seemed like he had barely turned third when the cut-off man got the ball.

Now what exactly can Byrd do that Daniel Nava can't?
   12. Cowboy Popup Posted: May 06, 2012 at 09:32 PM (#4125050)
Adrian Gonzalez is hitting like Mark Teixeira (Well, not that bad, but its been a lousy 110 ABs).
   13. Lassus Posted: May 06, 2012 at 09:36 PM (#4125052)
I was just writing what Bruce wrote, and then saw he already wrote it. That is freaking ridiculous, and the word "embarrassment" fits it perfectly.
   14. Dan Posted: May 06, 2012 at 09:40 PM (#4125053)
#### Nava. Call up Linares to play CF. Let's go for the upside plays.

Adrian Gonzalez has really not consistently driven the ball since the ASB last year. He continued to hit well because of unsustainably high BABIP on line drives and grounders for the last few months of last season, but he's just not driving the ball with authority.


One would think that with 12-man pitching staffs, managers would be better prepared to go deeper into a game with real pitchers.


It's actually even more embarrassing and worse than that: the Red Sox have a 13 man pitching staff.
   15. DKDC Posted: May 06, 2012 at 09:40 PM (#4125054)
I think it's an embarrassment for baseball that both teams went to position players in a game that was still up for grabs.


I don't know about it being an embarrassment for baseball, but it is bad managing. To be fair, there were some extenuating circumstances here: the teams played a 13 inning game 2 days ago and the Sox starter only lasted 3 innings yesterday, and both starters were knocked out early today, and neither team has an off day for a long time. The two bullpens pitched a combined 50 innings in this series.

However, I still think the right move is to plug in tomorrow's starter or a starting pitcher on his throw day and then worry about tomorrow tomorrow. It's not that challenging to shuffle the roster around and get fresh arms from AAA.

Buck got lucky and looks like a genius, and as for Bobby V, it's just not his year so far.
   16. UCCF Posted: May 06, 2012 at 09:40 PM (#4125055)
I think it's an embarrassment for baseball that both teams went to position players in a game that was still up for grabs. I mean, the game went 17 innings, not 27 innings.

It didn't help that neither starter managed to go 5 innings.
   17. Answer Guy Posted: May 06, 2012 at 09:41 PM (#4125056)
Now what exactly can Byrd do that Daniel Nava can't?


Cost the team Michael Bowden.
   18. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: May 06, 2012 at 09:42 PM (#4125058)
As a viewer with no ties to either team, I thought the game coming down to two position players to be great fun. Loosen up, guys.
   19. Crispix Attacks 2: Swag Airlines Posted: May 06, 2012 at 09:44 PM (#4125061)
The last player to start in the lineup and get the win as a pitcher was....Babe Ruth

According to this, it was Merkin Valdez last year. And before him, Babe Ruth.
   20. Dan Posted: May 06, 2012 at 09:46 PM (#4125064)
Merkin Valdez is a pitcher. Wilson Valdez is your man.

I think all of those stats were referring to AL only.
   21. Dale Sams Posted: May 06, 2012 at 09:52 PM (#4125069)
As a viewer with no ties to either team, I thought the game coming down to two position players to be great fun. Loosen up, guys.


This ties in exactly with my post in the other thread. Basiclly:

"7-20...blowing a 9-1 lead....today. I'm glad my team can provide such joy and entertainment for the heads at MLB Network and the Baseball Nation at large"

If this was the Sox 2004-2009...then yes, the game would have been very very funny. Today, it is not fun. At all.

Normally i would assume that Beckett just couldn't go, and that any other starter they could even think of using was either unavailable or already threw a side session. Even if that isn't the case, you know they would trudge out the "It's May, you can't play like it's September in May"

   22. Zipperholes Posted: May 06, 2012 at 09:55 PM (#4125072)
I think it's an embarrassment for baseball that both teams went to position players in a game that was still up for grabs. I mean, the game went 17 innings, not 27 innings.

One would think that with 12-man pitching staffs, managers would be better prepared to go deeper into a game with real pitchers.
I don't think it's wise to manage in anticipation of a 17-inning game. Of course, if either manager had known it would go 17 innings, they would have had relievers go longer so they had someone left. But it's so rare that I don't think it's contingency you should plan for if it means possibly sacrificing effectiveness from one of the earlier guys.

The problem in my opinion is such a rigid use of modern relievers that managers don't think they can adapt to the slightest unusual situation. Specifically, why aren't they regularly throwing two or three innings, instead of never being used more than an inning at a time, so that they're capable of it when you need them to? I recognize the benefit of LOOGYs and mixing and matching in close games, but you should have somebody who can throw four innings in a pinch.
   23. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: May 06, 2012 at 09:56 PM (#4125073)
If I see Jerry Royster I'm going to punch him in the mouth. Sending Byrd home in the 16th was unbelievably stupid, he was out by 25 feet. You've got Sweeney, one of your few hot bats and 3 for 7 on the day coming up and all you need him to do is single off A ####### FIRST BASEMAN to win the game.

Of course, it's not like JJ Hardy was showing off his arm all weekend so I'm sure it stunned Royster that Hardy can throw.
   24. Dan Posted: May 06, 2012 at 09:57 PM (#4125075)
The 2 big issues with the managing/coaching of this game for the Red Sox:

A. Sending Byrd in the 16th and having him thrown out by at least 15 feet.

B. Sending McDonald out to pitch the 17th after you've already got the opposing team using a position player and basically conceding you the game.
   25. Dale Sams Posted: May 06, 2012 at 09:57 PM (#4125076)
Why Linares? Jus wonderin. He's 28 and doing 'pretty good' in Portland. At least Nava posted a 91 OPS+ at the MLB level (Byrd is sporting like a 6 OPS+ right now...no, really. 6. And he's slow as hell)
   26. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: May 06, 2012 at 10:01 PM (#4125078)
I thought both managers were dumb. If I was Bobby I would have stuck with a real pitcher as long as the Orioles were going with a position player and I thought Buck should have gone to a starter once he got the lead. I guess I understand finally deciding \"#### it, let's see what happens" but with the lead I would have been pissed if I were an Oriole fan if Chris Davis blew a 3 run 17th inning lead.

Sox should have gone to Doubront (tomorrow's starter if he was in the building) or Bard (Tuesday) and worried about tomorrow tomorrow. Get those guys in there then either use Beckett if he's available or call up Ohlendorf for a day. This was a winnable game given away by Bobby Valentine. Of course he also left a pitcher in the game who needed 11 stitches while his leg went numb on Saturday. My sympathy for Bobby V. is pretty well gone after this shitshow of the weekend. He is not the primary problem (the pitching is a travesty) but he ain't part of the solution.
   27. Crispix Attacks 2: Swag Airlines Posted: May 06, 2012 at 10:01 PM (#4125079)
To be fair, this game had Pedro Strop, Kevin Gregg, Matt Lindstrom, Jim Johnson, Alfredo Aceves, Franklin Morales, Matt Albers, Rich Hill, and Scott Atchison all used for 2 innings each. The real problem was that both starters were terrible and had to leave early.

Five of the relievers the Red Sox used are people who were starters very recently (Andrew Miller, Vicente Padilla, Aceves, Morales, and Hill). I blame Valentine for not using one of them as a long man today, not whoever assembled the bullpen.
   28. Dale Sams Posted: May 06, 2012 at 10:02 PM (#4125081)
why aren't they regularly throwing two or three innings,


Actually to Valentine's credit, he's been using relievers a lot longer than what I think of as 'normal'. I thought for sure Miller should have gone longer, but I see he hasn't been hardly used more than 1 inning per game in AAA

Which is why I don't understand why Valentine 'sounds destroyed'. He went beyond what I think is safe with a few of his relievers.

and worried about tomorrow tomorrow


Preaching to the choir here.

   29. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: May 06, 2012 at 10:04 PM (#4125083)
Why Linares? Jus wonderin. He's 28 and doing 'pretty good' in Portland. At least Nava posted a 91 OPS+ at the MLB level (Byrd is sporting like a 6 OPS+ right now...no, really. 6. And he's slow as hell)


He's better than pretty good (.969 OPS) and he can play center field. Plus, he has the added benefit of being better regarded than Nava. That's a little thing but I think there is a belief that Linares (who they spent some money on) is a better player than Nava. A 91 OPS+ with no speed or defense doesn't exactly make me feel like he's someone we need around.
   30. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: May 06, 2012 at 10:05 PM (#4125084)
Which is why I don't understand why Valentine 'sounds destroyed'.


I think that's my comment from the game thread, it was just a note on his press conference. He sounded about as bad as Francona in September, just a beaten man.
   31. Dale Sams Posted: May 06, 2012 at 10:18 PM (#4125090)
So...

Bowden (seems like a perfectly useful arm ) for an utterly replaceable 34 year old CFer.

Lowrie (yes yes, I know he'll get hurt any day now) and the already hurt Weiland for Melancon

....thank God we got Sweeney so I don't have to say anything about Reddick.
   32. Benji Posted: May 06, 2012 at 10:40 PM (#4125096)
He went 0-8 and helped my fantasy team! What a game that was. Made up for having to see Melo preening because he finally won a playoff game. I hope the Heat win by 50 next time.
   33. Chase Insteadman Wannabe Posted: May 06, 2012 at 10:51 PM (#4125099)
If someone told me that a Baltimore Oriole position player pitched two scoreless innings for a win, I would have bet money that it was Nick Markakis.
   34. Darren Posted: May 06, 2012 at 10:52 PM (#4125100)
Why is Melacon still down? Seems like he had a couple bad games, went to the minors and dominated but has been passed over 64 times now. You liked him enough to trade for him, give him a shot to work it out.
   35. DKDC Posted: May 06, 2012 at 11:01 PM (#4125106)
If someone told me that a Baltimore Oriole position player pitched two scoreless innings for a win, I would have bet money that it was Nick Markakis.


Buck said after the game that he was deciding between Markakis and Davis. Buck didn't come out and say it, but I think he went with Davis because he's more willing to expose Davis to potential injury (to arm or by line drive).

The best pitcher is probably Matt Weiters, who was actually Georgia Tech's closer, where he'd catch 8 innings and then
head out to the mound. It's a little different after 15 innings behind the plate and a several year layoff from pitching.
   36. Dan Posted: May 06, 2012 at 11:05 PM (#4125108)
If someone told me that a Baltimore Oriole position player pitched two scoreless innings for a win, I would have bet money that it was Nick Markakis.


Not Wieters? Wasn't Wieters the closer on his college team?
   37. Darren Posted: May 06, 2012 at 11:11 PM (#4125112)
He actually pitched to himself in college, just because he could.
   38. Chase Insteadman Wannabe Posted: May 06, 2012 at 11:12 PM (#4125115)
Not Wieters? Wasn't Wieters the closer on his college team?

Basically I did not say Wieters because of what DKDC mentioned about 15 innings behind the plate. Plus the Markakis draft year was one of the first years I actually followed the draft closely, so I still remember him as the guy most teams preferred as a pitcher. But are there any teams that can compare to the Orioles who apparently in Davis, Wieters, and Markakis have at least three possibly decent pitchers as position players?
   39. Crispix Attacks 2: Swag Airlines Posted: May 06, 2012 at 11:16 PM (#4125116)
He actually pitched to himself in college, just because he could.

Of course, he only had to throw one pitch per inning.
   40. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: May 06, 2012 at 11:17 PM (#4125118)
I think more teams should consider having a non-pitcher on the roster who has enough experience/aptitude as a pitcher some time in their past to act as a competent guys for situations like today (as well as other situations, like being on the wrong side of a 15-3 game in the top of the 9th).

In fact, if I had somebody like that who was probably going to make the roster, I'd have him pitch an inning or two in spring training to simulate such a situation.

This happens in football - for example, the Patriots have three QBs on the roster (Brady, Hoyer, and Mallett), but they also have a utility guy, Julius Edelman, who is a pretty good kick returner, a poor man's Wes Welker in the slot, started playing some defensive back in dime defenses, and was a starting QB at Kent State. Is he awesome at any of these roles? No. Does he cover you if you're screwed once a year? Yes - in fact, he played a lot of defense late in the season. So did Troy Brown, back in the day.

It's a smart move, it is totally doable, and if the Sox had a plan, they would've been more prepared to deal with it today.
   41. Crispix Attacks 2: Swag Airlines Posted: May 06, 2012 at 11:24 PM (#4125120)
A more likely plan is for the Sox to make sure their bullpen has several pitchers with a lot of MLB starting experience, like Vicente Padilla and Andrew Miller and Clayton Mortensen and Rich Hill. Wait, that didn't work.

WHY IS VICENTE PADILLA THERE IF NOT TO EAT INNINGS? HE BLOWS oh what does it matter.
   42. boteman Posted: May 06, 2012 at 11:28 PM (#4125121)
Despite the embarrassment, poor planning, lack of conventionality, I was tickled pink to watch a game with all these crazy zany twists and turns, culminating with two position players pitching against each other--designated hitters, no less, so both teams were forced to send them up to bat. How often do you see that?
   43. The Yankee Clapper Posted: May 06, 2012 at 11:29 PM (#4125125)
The last American League positional player to switch to pitcher and win the game was.....Rocky Colavito (1968).

I saw that game (on TV). IIRC, the Yankees quickly fell behind by a significant margin in the 1st game of a doubleheader, and brought in Colavito early to save the bullpen, but then rallied for 5 runs or so to put Rocky in position for the win. Colavito was at the end of his career as a hitter but the Yanks supposedly tried to interest him in coming back next season as a pitcher. He declined, but he had a helluva an arm.
   44. michaelplank Posted: May 06, 2012 at 11:38 PM (#4125129)
WHY IS VICENTE PADILLA THERE IF NOT TO EAT INNINGS?


He couldn't even do it in the All Star Game a few years back.
   45. boteman Posted: May 06, 2012 at 11:41 PM (#4125133)
WHY IS VICENTE PADILLA THERE IF NOT TO EAT INNINGS?

Clearly, he is eating SOMETHING.
   46. hokieneer Posted: May 06, 2012 at 11:44 PM (#4125135)
I think more teams should consider having a non-pitcher on the roster who has enough experience/aptitude as a pitcher some time in their past to act as a competent guys for situations like today (as well as other situations, like being on the wrong side of a 15-3 game in the top of the 9th).


Unless it's used as a tiebreaker, I can't see how you can justify determining a roster spot based off something so rare as position player pitching ability. That scenario is likely to come up 2-3 times a year, and most of those are because of blowouts.

EDIT: Needing an NL pitcher to PH/PR is a much more common occurrence, so I can see wanting to keep a Micah Owings around just in case.
   47. Honkie Kong Posted: May 06, 2012 at 11:47 PM (#4125137)
One of the things Fredi Gonzalez has done after last year's backlash from his bullpen usage is use his middle relievers to eat a lot of innings.
Over the past 2-3 weeks, Medlen has picked up a 3 inning save, Martinez a 2.2 today and Livan a 1.2 inning save yesterday. And generally be less rigid with the 7-8-9 inning role.

He has also shown willingness to let a reliever who has good stuff on the day to pitch multiple innings. Still does some hair wrenching stuff with "trying to make stuff happen" on the basepaths ( with a league leading offence, no less ), but still, it has been good to watch.

And yea, the Braves' starters have absolutely sucked this season so far.
   48. Jolly Old St. Nick Done Jumped The Ship Posted: May 06, 2012 at 11:53 PM (#4125139)
I saw that game (on TV). IIRC, the Yankees quickly fell behind by a significant margin in the 1st game of a doubleheader, and brought in Colavito early to save the bullpen, but then rallied for 5 runs or so to put Rocky in position for the win. Colavito was at the end of his career as a hitter but the Yanks supposedly tried to interest him in coming back next season as a pitcher. He declined, but he had a helluva an arm.

In 1960 I was at a Tigers game in Yankee Stadium when Colavito threw a perfect strike on the fly to home plate from right field, with his back pinned to the low wall and unable to get any running momentum. Colavito had an arm that was every bit the equal of those of Mays and Clemente, at least in terms of strength.
   49. TVerik Posted: May 07, 2012 at 12:02 AM (#4125142)
This is a great example of why the "beer and fried chicken in the clubhouse" thing could be harmful.
   50. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: May 07, 2012 at 01:49 AM (#4125158)
[41] is one of my favorite posts of 2012.
   51. Sweatpants Posted: May 07, 2012 at 01:52 AM (#4125159)
One of the things Fredi Gonzalez has done after last year's backlash from his bullpen usage is use his middle relievers to eat a lot of innings.
Over the past 2-3 weeks, Medlen has picked up a 3 inning save, Martinez a 2.2 today and Livan a 1.2 inning save yesterday. And generally be less rigid with the 7-8-9 inning role.
Part of that is just the way the team is designed. I made fun of it when they signed Hernandez, but the three long man plan has worked out okay so far. It wasn't really an option last season, when Martinez was the only long reliever they had.
   52. Curse of the Andino Posted: May 07, 2012 at 02:21 AM (#4125161)
Buck said after the game that he was deciding between Markakis and Davis. Buck didn't come out and say it, but I think he went with Davis because he's more willing to expose Davis to potential injury (to arm or by line drive).


Plus, Markakis almost started the year on the DL with the off-season surgery.
   53. birdlives is one crazy ninja Posted: May 07, 2012 at 02:31 AM (#4125163)
Why didn't Bobby use Clayton Mortensen in the 17th?
   54. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: May 07, 2012 at 03:07 AM (#4125166)
Mortensen had pitched 3.1 the day before when Cook got hurt/sucked. I'm guessing he wasn't available.


Buck said after the game that he was deciding between Markakis and Davis. Buck didn't come out and say it, but I think he went with Davis because he's more willing to expose Davis to potential injury (to arm or by line drive).


Well, if there's a position where a throwing arm is the least important, it's 1B or DH. Kind of a shame Davis' arm is wasted there, actually.
   55. Dan Posted: May 07, 2012 at 04:31 AM (#4125168)
Davis is a better third baseman than Reynolds, and probably better than Betemit. It's silly that they play more 3B than he does.
   56. Neutral Milk Dotel (Dan Lee) Posted: May 07, 2012 at 05:31 AM (#4125171)
Davis went 0-for-8?

Man, that's exactly why we need the DH. Pitchers just can't hit.
   57. RMc and His Roster of Rubbish Posted: May 07, 2012 at 07:23 AM (#4125181)
That must have been some game. 17 runs in an hour and 42 minutes.

It would've been even shorter, but FOX kept cutting to shots of Mary Pickford in the stands and running endless ads for Al Jolson's new TV show.
   58. Neutral Milk Dotel (Dan Lee) Posted: May 07, 2012 at 07:40 AM (#4125184)
If I hear Ben-Hur exclaim "YOU'RE RISKING A PATIENT'S LIFE!" one more time, I'm going to find Fred Niblo and give him a poke in the schnozz.
   59. base ball chick Posted: May 07, 2012 at 08:02 AM (#4125187)
you see AL guys - pitchers hitting is really teh kewl

didn't realize chris davis even got traded, but now he's got a GOOD chance to get in the rotation!!! good for him!!!!
   60. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: May 07, 2012 at 08:25 AM (#4125189)
That's ridiculous Lisa. The two pitchers combined to go 1 for 12 with 6 Ks and 2 DPs. They couldn't hit at all.
   61. Davo Mastroianni Posted: May 07, 2012 at 08:58 AM (#4125205)
This is how every team should use their 25th spot on the roster:

Right after the final out of the World Series, they should call up a half dozen fungible lifetime AAA offensive players, and say "Whichever one of you is our best pitcher during spring training will make it to the Major Leagues. So, spend all winter practicing."

Come Opening Day, that player--let's call him Daniel Nava--will be an outfielder/pinch-runner/mop-up pitcher. And by mop-up pitcher, I mean any time the Red Sox are behind by 6 runs or more, Daniel Nava will pitch. For the rest of the game. No matter how awful he is, or how tired he gets. He will be used solely in "Save the Bullpen" outings. (And in the 17th innings of days like yesterday, of course.)

This makes 10,000 times more sense than using your 25th spot on a 13th relief pitcher who can only give you 1 inning at a time. Really, by taking the role of the 13th pitcher, he would allow the Red Sox further flexibility in using other spots on the 25 man roster: Add an extra defensive specialist, or a pinch-runner type, or something else--someone who can actually contribute, and give them some ability to better maneuver their lineup late in games.
   62. Crispix Attacks 2: Swag Airlines Posted: May 07, 2012 at 09:01 AM (#4125207)
Watching the highlights, it seemed that Davis knew what he was doing as a pitcher, while McDonald looked like a random guy from a college intramural league. Every ball was about 70mph and chest-high.
   63. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 07, 2012 at 09:08 AM (#4125211)
And by mop-up pitcher, I mean any time the Red Sox are behind by 6 runs or more, Daniel Nava will pitch. For the rest of the game. No matter how awful he is, or how tired he gets. He will be used solely in "Save the Bullpen" outings. (And in the 17th innings of days like yesterday, of course.)

With 12 RPs, this should basically never be necessary.

The issue is that teams carry 7 0ne-inning specialists, instead of 4 short-guys and 3 long-guys. There are ample fringe SPs in every organization that could give you 2-4 IP regularly out of the pen. Hell, lots of these guys get converted in one-inning RPs.

This would solve a bunch of problems:
1) No need to force a struggling SP through 5 IP. This has the dual effect of keeping you in the game, and I believe a quicker hook would be good for SP health.
2) You can go extra innings w/o using 6-7 RPs.
3) You can break young starters in in the pen w/o having to worry about the Joba/Feliz/Bard/Hughes conversion issues if you need them to start.
4) You can rotate 4th and 5th SPs based on matchups and "hot-hands".

Edit: As to yesterday's game, I don't understand how once they got to Hill, they aren't leaving him in for 5-6 innings. He was a SP in the minors this year. Surely he can give you more than 33 pitches.
   64. Pat Rapper's Delight Posted: May 07, 2012 at 09:14 AM (#4125213)
As a Red Sox fan, I can't decide whether the low point of the season (thus far) is losing that 15-9 game to the Yankees a few weeks ago or losing a game where the winning pitcher was the other team's DH.
   65. Mattbert Posted: May 07, 2012 at 09:51 AM (#4125227)
I think more teams should consider having a non-pitcher on the roster who has enough experience/aptitude as a pitcher some time in their past to act as a competent guys for situations like today (as well as other situations, like being on the wrong side of a 15-3 game in the top of the 9th). [...] It's a smart move, it is totally doable, and if the Sox had a plan, they would've been more prepared to deal with it today.

It could be argued that the Sox do have somebody like that, but it didn't work out so hot for them yesterday. When the Orioles drafted Darnell McDonald, there was at least a little bit of a question as to whether he was a better prospect as a pitcher or an outfielder. IIRC, he won BA's high school player of the year award in large part because of his performance on the mound.

   66. AROM Posted: May 07, 2012 at 10:16 AM (#4125245)
Davis is a better third baseman than Reynolds, and probably better than Betemit. It's silly that they play more 3B than he does.


That's not saying much. Orioles really don't have a third baseman. Just a collection of 1B/DH who can stand in the spot.

Jim Johnson was the last real Oriole pitcher so I was wondering who they'd go to next. I think if the Orioles had taken a lead after Johnson's 2nd inning he'd go back for a third. But with the game still tied and being on the road, he would have had to pitch at least 2 more innings to potentially get a win. So at that point saving your pitchers and rolling the dice on a hitter makes sense.

I never would have guessed McDonald once had potential as a pitcher. He had poor control, low 80's velocity, and no offspeed pitches. It's been a long time and his arm must not be what it once was.

I was hoping for Matt Wieters. It would have been really cool to see Davis with a win and Wieters with a save. In addition to Markakis, Adam Jones probably has the best throwing arm of any current CF and was reported to throw 96 when he was drafted out of high school.
   67. TVerik Posted: May 07, 2012 at 10:23 AM (#4125251)
where the winning pitcher was the other team's DH.


Interesting. If a pitcher is always batted for in the AL with the DH, I wonder if there's some hyper-technical sense in which the above statement is true 99% of the time.
   68. zack Posted: May 07, 2012 at 10:28 AM (#4125254)
Pitch f/x had Davis throwing roughly half fastballs at 87-89 and half change-ups at 85. That's pretty excellent velocity for a fielder.

It had McDonald throwing basically all change-ups at 83, with a couple 88 fastballs, so it has no idea on him.
   69. BDC Posted: May 07, 2012 at 10:29 AM (#4125255)
Davis is a very good fielding first baseman who, so far, has hit well enough in the majors to keep a job as a shortstop or maybe a Gold-Glove-caliber second baseman. At 3B he's been caught in the middle: he doesn't quite field or hit well enough to be a major-leaguer at the position. I have always liked watching him play and am highly in favor of his becoming the next Brooks Kieschnick :)
   70. Nasty Nate Posted: May 07, 2012 at 10:50 AM (#4125266)
Where the hell was Josh Beckett?
   71. LionoftheSenate (feels sorry for the Pirates) Posted: May 07, 2012 at 10:56 AM (#4125271)
Adrian Gonzalez went 0-8 in this game, including striking out facing Davis in the 17th as the tying run.


There is this quote (a promise) from Adrian Gonzalez on Wednesday, May 2nd.

Gonzalez went 0-for-4, striking out with the bases loaded and two out in the seventh, then grounded out with a runner on third after the Red Sox had pulled within two runs.

“This game is all on me. I had two great opportunities and I didn’t come through,” Gonzalez said. “I should have come through one of those times and I just wasn’t able to. I feel great physically. I’m not tired at all. I just didn’t come through. It won’t happen again.

Story Here


I'm sure Adrian Gonzalez never expected to whiff facing a Quad-A first baseman just a few days later.
   72. Mattbert Posted: May 07, 2012 at 10:58 AM (#4125277)
I never would have guessed McDonald once had potential as a pitcher. He had poor control, low 80's velocity, and no offspeed pitches. It's been a long time and his arm must not be what it once was.

Indeed. The O's were firm in their decision* to have him focus on being an outfielder. I don't think he's pitched competitively, not even in the minors, in about fifteen years. So unless he'd been noodling around with his vestigial pitching skills on the side, it's understandable that he looked a little rusty (to say the least).

* Given the career Darnell has had, maybe he should have gone the pitching route. That's worked out okay for his cousin so far.
   73. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: May 07, 2012 at 11:06 AM (#4125290)
No talk about Byrd being safe if he slid?

   74. Crispix Attacks 2: Swag Airlines Posted: May 07, 2012 at 11:10 AM (#4125293)
Not so far, no.
   75. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: May 07, 2012 at 11:33 AM (#4125313)
On second look, I guess its only a possibility that Byrd is safe if he slides.

You know, everyone ####### that we don't treat DHes as "real baseball players". Then a manager actually does this and its called an "embarrassment".
   76. Kurt Posted: May 07, 2012 at 11:44 AM (#4125322)
I have faith in Wieters' ability to move his glove a few inches down, if Byrd had been sliding.

You might as well say McDonald would have gotten a swinging strike on Jones is he had thrown the pitch low, given that Jones' swing was up around his letters.
   77. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: May 07, 2012 at 11:59 AM (#4125343)
No talk about Byrd being safe if he slid?


What bothers me about that play is sending him at all. He was out by about 20 feet. The Orioles had a 1st baseman pitching and the Sox had a more than competent bat (Ryan Sweeney) due up. Watching the play unfold Royster has to be conservative and force Davis to successfully get Sweeney out.


Where the hell was Josh Beckett?


If he couldn't go on Saturday I suspect he couldn't have gone on Sunday. But Daniel Bard? Felix Doubront? Jon Lester? Hell, Scott Atchison for another inning? With the Orioles willingly punting the Sox HAD to keep rolling out real pitchers, this was a gimme.
   78. Nasty Nate Posted: May 07, 2012 at 12:12 PM (#4125355)
If he couldn't go on Saturday I suspect he couldn't have gone on Sunday.


I thought they bumped him mostly because they had to activate, and wanted to get a look, at Cook. But if he can't pitch in a 17 inning game, put his whiny ass on the DL.

   79. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 07, 2012 at 12:47 PM (#4125385)

I thought they bumped him mostly because they had to activate, and wanted to get a look, at Cook. But if he can't pitch in a 17 inning game, put his whiny ass on the DL.


I don't think they can risk Beckett's health at this point. If he goes down long-term, the season's starting to look very toasty.

I'll ask again, why wasn't Hill left in much longer? The guy's an SP, and started this year in the minors.

Surely, he could have given them 100 pitches; but he was yanked at 33.
   80. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: May 07, 2012 at 01:11 PM (#4125409)
I wonder how many other winning pitchers have also struck out themselves five times in the same game


I was curious -- since 1918, there are 12 games in which a pitcher has struck out 5 times, and they are 8-3 (with a reliever losing the other one) in those games.

The first game on the list is a fun one -- 1918-05-15, Lefty Williams loses to Walter Johnson 1-0 when he gives up a run (on a wild pitch?) in the 18th. Williams' game score was 109, the second-highest that we know of for a losing pitcher. A couple of months later Art Nehf put up a game score of 118 while losing 2-0 in 21 innings. Third-highest is Harvey Haddix.



   81. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: May 07, 2012 at 01:14 PM (#4125413)
I'll ask again, why wasn't Hill left in much longer? The guy's an SP, and started this year in the minors.


Hill had Tommy John surgery last June. He's back pitching ahead of schedule and is nowhere near ready to be stretched out.
   82. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: May 07, 2012 at 01:19 PM (#4125420)
That 33 pitches is the most Hill has thrown since 2009. He's not a starter anymore than Darren Oliver is. If you want to question Bobby for any of the reliever lengths I think Andrew Miller (1.1 IP, 17 pitches) and Vicente Padilla (1 IP, 31 pitches) are the guys.
   83. rlc Posted: May 07, 2012 at 01:45 PM (#4125453)
When the Orioles drafted Darnell McDonald, there was at least a little bit of a question as to whether he was a better prospect as a pitcher or an outfielder.


I don't remember that at all, but rather the question of whether he was a better prospect as an outfielder or a tailback. Gillick gave him a large bonus to keep him from wearing burnt orange on Saturdays.
   84. SoSH U at work Posted: May 07, 2012 at 01:47 PM (#4125458)
Gillick gave him a large bonus to stop him wearing burnt orange on Saturdays.


My retinas wish someone would do the same for Rickie Fowler on Sundays.

   85. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 07, 2012 at 01:48 PM (#4125461)

Hill had Tommy John surgery last June. He's back pitching ahead of schedule and is nowhere near ready to be stretched out.


But, if injury is the concern, isn't McDonald more likely to hurt himself than Hill? They seem equally expendable.
   86. AROM Posted: May 07, 2012 at 01:48 PM (#4125462)
I wonder how many other winning pitchers have also struck out themselves five times in the same game


If a pitcher even gets 5 at bats in a game, it means that he is pitching well enough to stay in the game for a while, and that his team has sent at least 45 men to the plate, at least 18 baserunners. That's a good recipe for a winning game. No surprise that pitchers are 8-3 in such games.

   87. Gamingboy Posted: May 07, 2012 at 02:21 PM (#4125499)
There is nothing I can say that hasn't already been said, implied or is just waiting to be said.
   88. Nasty Nate Posted: May 07, 2012 at 03:01 PM (#4125529)
I don't think they can risk Beckett's health at this point. If he goes down long-term, the season's starting to look very toasty.


If he's so hurt that he can't pitch an inning on 5-days rest, he should be on the DL.
   89. rlc Posted: May 07, 2012 at 03:22 PM (#4125543)
If a pitcher even gets 5 at bats in a game, it means that he is pitching well enough to stay in the game for a while, and that his team has sent at least 45 men to the plate, at least 18 baserunners.


Not necessarily. These two starters combined for 12 plate appearances and fewer strikeouts than Chris Davis yesterday - and they were both batting against HoF pitchers.
   90. The Yankee Clapper Posted: May 07, 2012 at 03:23 PM (#4125544)
As a Red Sox fan, I can't decide whether the low point of the season (thus far) is losing that 15-9 game to the Yankees a few weeks ago or losing a game where the winning pitcher was the other team's DH.

Tough call - probably worthy of extended debate.
   91. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili(Teddy F. Ballgame) Posted: May 07, 2012 at 03:33 PM (#4125556)
What's Tony Pena, Jr. up to these days?
   92. Chase Insteadman Wannabe Posted: May 07, 2012 at 04:00 PM (#4125590)
What's Tony Pena, Jr. up to these days?

Not hitting.
   93. Der_K Posted: May 07, 2012 at 04:16 PM (#4125599)
Not pitching well either (6.75 ERA w/ Pawtucket, four straight bad outings).

Incidentally, there was a minor league game that went 18 yesterday (Bradenton over Tampa), losing pitcher (Rabago) began the game at third.
   94. jingoist Posted: May 07, 2012 at 04:46 PM (#4125630)
What's the over/under on Valentine lasting until the All Star game
   95. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: May 07, 2012 at 05:47 PM (#4125683)
What's the over/under on Valentine lasting until the All Star game

Um... 5.5?
   96. HOLLA(R) Posted: May 07, 2012 at 05:50 PM (#4125685)
What's the over/under on Valentine lasting until the All Star game


Mauve.
   97. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: May 07, 2012 at 06:19 PM (#4125711)
What's the over/under on Valentine lasting until the All Star game


Yes?

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