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Thursday, June 12, 2014

Tempers flare as Rockies beat Braves

The Rockies led 8-3 in the eighth when Dickerson fouled away a pitch and knocked off Laird’s facemask.

...

With his next pitch, Atlanta reliever David Carpenter hit Dickerson in the thigh and was ejected.

“I guess Carpenter thought it was on purpose,” Dickerson said.

Ah, those loveable scamps are at it again.

 

Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: June 12, 2014 at 09:34 PM | 41 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: braves, rockies, unwritten rules

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   1. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: June 12, 2014 at 10:36 PM (#4724615)
David Carpenter has had no control at all this year. I doubt it was intentional.
   2. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: June 12, 2014 at 10:51 PM (#4724620)
The snip in the excerpt is in an odd place. Dickerson fouled one off Laird's mask, play resumed, and Dickerson finished the KO by clocking Laird with a backswing. After he left and was replaced, Carpenter drilled Dickerson with the next pitch. The pitchers spent pretty much the rest of the game throwing inside regularly.
   3. zachtoma Posted: June 12, 2014 at 10:51 PM (#4724621)
I saw that part of the game, it was totally intentional, with Carpenter getting in Dickerson's face too once he glared back at the mound. But he only started jawing at him once the umpire got between Dickerson and him, haha. Unfortunately this is the kind of bullshit that will be used by bbtf as another opportunity to pile on the Braves and Braves fans.
   4. Brian White Posted: June 12, 2014 at 11:05 PM (#4724630)
Way to be intentionally misleading in the excerpt, there.
   5. DanO Posted: June 12, 2014 at 11:05 PM (#4724632)
I wasn't really planning on piling on the Braves or their fans, but with a persecution complex like that, how can I resist? The Braves are bad! And so are their fans!
   6. baxter Posted: June 12, 2014 at 11:54 PM (#4724650)
Was Tulowitzki rested this game?
   7. Walt Davis Posted: June 12, 2014 at 11:54 PM (#4724651)
At least Carpenter can hit something ... unlike the Braves' hitters!
   8. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: June 13, 2014 at 12:13 AM (#4724656)
Yeah, I guess I could have done a better job with the excerpt. I try to keep them short. I didn't give away Carpenter's idiotic quote. It's worth a click through.
   9. zachtoma Posted: June 13, 2014 at 12:13 AM (#4724657)
I wasn't really planning on piling on the Braves or their fans, but with a persecution complex like that, how can I resist? The Braves are bad! And so are their fans!


That's true, although a similar thing happened this weekend where Machado hit Norris twice on the backswing, taking him out of the game, and then got pitched inside by that A's, who missed him twice, but since the A's are darlings nobody slammed them as an org. To be clear, I think the catcher being hit was accidental in both games and throwing at the hitter was the wrong move in both cases.
   10. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: June 13, 2014 at 12:22 AM (#4724659)
Carpenter's quote is lame--he certainly did not look surprised to be ejected--but Walt Weiss wins the Stupid Award for:

"If you think a guy can foul a ball off and then at the same time hit the catcher on the backswing on purpose, you got no clue," Weiss said. "They made their decision. They made a bad choice."


Having played baseball for 30-plus years himself, he should know very well that no one can foul a ball off the catcher's face anytime he wants to.*

*Except Ichiro, of course. t
   11. Baldrick Posted: June 13, 2014 at 01:11 AM (#4724669)
That was Weiss's point.
   12. Commissioner Bud Black Beltre Hillman Posted: June 13, 2014 at 01:38 AM (#4724674)
That's true, although a similar thing happened this weekend where Machado hit Norris twice on the backswing, taking him out of the game, and then got pitched inside by that A's, who missed him twice, but since the A's are darlings nobody slammed them as an org.
Nobody slammed them as an org since they threw inside (edit: "missed him twice"...) after Machado cleared the benches over a tag and his team then threw at the tagger, *then* that crap with the backswing happened; the two situations aren't that similar.
   13. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: June 13, 2014 at 02:08 AM (#4724681)
Unfortunately this is the kind of bullshit that will be used by bbtf as another opportunity to pile on the Braves and Braves fans.


Why yes, yes it is. Because you are whiney little b*tches who's lost their dummy(pacifier?)
Now go get out of your dress, curl up in a ball and cry yourself to sleep!
   14. zachtoma Posted: June 13, 2014 at 03:17 AM (#4724685)
Nobody slammed them as an org since they threw inside (edit: "missed him twice"...) after Machado cleared the benches over a tag and his team then threw at the tagger, *then* that crap with the backswing happened; the two situations aren't that similar.


The throwing inside at Machado happened after Norris was taken out of the game. That's why Machado chucked his bat into the field. That's why he and Abad were ejected.

EDIT: Nevermind, I see what you mean now.
   15. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: June 13, 2014 at 06:41 AM (#4724689)
That was Weiss's point.


D'oh. I got the managers mixed up. This is your brain on drugs...
   16. DKDC Posted: June 13, 2014 at 07:34 AM (#4724692)
Also, Machado pre-empted any criticism for the As by tossing his bat.

If he hadn't done that, I think you would've seen more criticism towards Abad and the A's for being overly sensitive because of the backswing and Manny's poor manners.

It is interesting to see two backswing-related kerfluffles so close together when I don't remember ever seeing one before. I wonder if the Braves were overly sensitive because the Machado thing was in the news and it was on their minds.

I hope backswings don't get added to the list of macho BS reasons to start a beanball war.
   17. Joey B.: posting for the kids of northeast Ohio Posted: June 13, 2014 at 09:43 AM (#4724758)
Unfortunately this is the kind of bullshit that will be used by bbtf as another opportunity to pile on the Braves and Braves fans.

As if those tomahawk chopping, beer bottle throwing reprobates don't deserve to be piled on.
   18. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: June 13, 2014 at 09:52 AM (#4724768)
Was Tulowitzki rested this game?


Yes.
   19. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: June 13, 2014 at 10:06 AM (#4724778)
I hope backswings don't get added to the list of macho BS reasons to start a beanball war.


Yes. On the other hand, I don't think baseball can allow any upswing in backswing whackings. If certain guys become repeat offenders, then the league is going to have to do something (the only thing I can think of is requiring chronic violators to stand closer to the pitcher, which would be exceedingly difficult to monitor).

   20. stanmvp48 Posted: June 13, 2014 at 10:19 AM (#4724787)
I agree with all of the above. I do think that hitting Gattis in the ninth inning was also dumb and gratuitous. None of this would have happened if McCann was still on the Braves.
   21. puck Posted: June 13, 2014 at 10:53 AM (#4724829)
That was Weiss's point.


Minor thing--Weiss's point was that you can't intentionally foul a ball off, and then hit the catcher's mask on the same swing. Not that one can't foul the ball off the mask.

I would think you can, but it would be weird if it were intentional. But I didn't see the game, I don't know if there had been something going on between Dickerson and Laird.

Carpenter claimed that when he hit Dickerson on the butt, the pitch got away from him. If he admits it was intentional, does he really get a longer suspension?

At least they follow the unwritten rules. Carpenter threw to a non-dangerous spot and Gattis didn't make a fuss when he took the retaliatory pitch.
   22. DKDC Posted: June 13, 2014 at 10:58 AM (#4724834)
Yes. On the other hand, I don't think baseball can allow any upswing in backswing whackings. If certain guys become repeat offenders, then the league is going to have to do something (the only thing I can think of is requiring chronic violators to stand closer to the pitcher, which would be exceedingly difficult to monitor).


There have been a cluster of these in the last couple months, but it’s hard to tell if it’s a trend. It’s certainly possible the big looping uppercut swings we see today are to blame.

MLB’s multimedia search turns up the following, and I see as many repeat catchers as I do repeat hitters, so maybe both are to blame.

6/12/14: Gerald Laird is forced to exit the game with an injury after being hit in the head by Corey Dickerson's backswing
6/11/14: Alejandro De Aza gets a piece of Alex Avila's catcher's mask with his backswing
6/6/14: Alex Avila leaves the game in the 8th inning after being hit in the head with David Ortiz's backswing
6/8/14: Derek Norris exits the game after being hit on the mask by Manny Machado's backswing behind home plate
5/13/14: Derek Norris is shaken up after he is hit by Brandon Moss' backswing, but he remains in the game
5/13/14: Travis d'Arnaud gets hit in the head by Alfonso Soriano's backswing, and is later placed on the 7-day disabled list
9/13/13: Travis d'Arnaud is shaken up after getting hit in the head on Ed Lucas' backswing, but he remains in the game
9/6/13: Yan Gomes' bat shatters and he hits Mets catcher Travis d'Arnaud with his backswing in the bottom of the fourth inning
6/26/13: Jose Lobaton is shaken up after being struck in the head by Adam Lind's backswing, but remains in the game in the ninth inning
6/4/13: Jesus Sucre gets hit by Alexei Ramirez's backswing, but he remains in the game
3/23/13: Jesus Montero is hit in the head by Lou Marson's backswing and is forced to exit the game in the top of the second
8/1/12: Home-plate umpire Joe West is struck on the side of the head by Carlos Lee's backswing in the fifth inning
5/11/12: Yorvit Torrealba has his mask knocked off after Albert Pujols' backswing gets him in the face
5/11/12: Carlos Ruiz is shaken up on the play after Chris Denorfia's backswing gets the catcher in the arm
9/22/11: Angel Pagan hits his head in his backswing in the top of the first, but would remain in the game
9/17/11: Ty Wigginton's backswing hits Chris Stewart in the wrist, but he stays in the game
7/26/11: David Ross stays in the game after Xavier Paul's backswing strikes him in the head in the 18th inning
7/18/11: Chris Stewart gets hit in the back of the helmet on Aaron Miles' backswing, but stays in the game
6/19/11: After being hit in the head on a backswing, Russell Martin is attended to in the dugout by teammate Nick Swisher
5/16/11: Kyle Phillips stays in the game after being hit by Armando Galarraga's backswing during his at-bat
4/6/11: Catcher Ryan Doumit is hit in the head by Yadier Molina's backswing, but he stays in the game
10/1/10: Rockies catcher Miguel Olivo is hit by Albert Pujols' backswing and is carted off the field
8/15/10: Carlos Lee hits the home-plate umpire with his backswing in the sixth inning
6/20/10: Humberto Quintero is hit on the side of the catcher's helmet by Andres Blanco's backswing, sustaining a game-ending injury
5/22/10: Manny Ramirez's backswing makes contact with the catcher, sending Xavier Paul back to first
6/03/09: Jorge Posada gets hit by Marlon Byrd's bat as the hitter follows through on a swing
5/09/08: Cubs get a strike out throw out double play courtesy of Eric Byrnes' back-swing interference
   23. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: June 13, 2014 at 10:59 AM (#4724835)
Minor thing--Weiss's point was that you can't intentionally foul a ball off, and then hit the catcher's mask on the same swing. Not that one can't foul the ball off the mask.


But that isn't what happened, if Post 2 was accurate. He fouled the pitch off the mask on one swing, and then he hit the catcher with his backswing later in the AB. It's impossible to do the former intentionally (at least the off the mask part, and damn near impossible to foul a ball off in any direction intentionally), but it's obviously easy to intentionally hit the catcher on a backswing. But other than a situation like Machado's where the guy was already pissed off, there's generally no reason to think a player would do that.

   24. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: June 13, 2014 at 11:01 AM (#4724839)
There have been a cluster of these in the last couple months, but it’s hard to tell if it’s a trend. It’s certainly possible the big looping uppercut swings we see today are to blame.


WE're also more concussion aware now than we were in the past.

I see as many repeat catchers as I do repeat hitters, so maybe both are to blame.


You have about 7X fewer catchers than batters, so you ought to.

   25. DKDC Posted: June 13, 2014 at 11:20 AM (#4724859)
I think it is difficult to intentionally hit a catcher on the backswing without contorting unnaturally.

Yes, you would expect to see more repeat catchers, but the clustering of 8 different hitters and 4 different catchers involved in the last 8 incidents on that list does not look random. Of course that list is not exhaustive, I suspect that catchers get nicked in the mitt or mask all the time without anyone else noticing.
   26. Baldrick Posted: June 13, 2014 at 11:33 AM (#4724877)
5/13/14: Derek Norris is shaken up after he is hit by Brandon Moss' backswing, but he remains in the game

Huh?
   27. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: June 13, 2014 at 11:42 AM (#4724882)
I'm genuinely unsure whether I'm more tired of the Braves acting like red-asses or the Braves' fans getting outraged over people being upset at the Braves' red-assery.

I thought a lot of this #### would die down when McCann left, but I guess it's here to stay.
   28. Danny Posted: June 13, 2014 at 11:53 AM (#4724891)
5/13/14: Derek Norris is shaken up after he is hit by Brandon Moss' backswing, but he remains in the game

Huh?

It was Alexei Ramirez (not Moss, of course), and he pretty much threw his bat into Norris' knee.
   29. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: June 13, 2014 at 11:58 AM (#4724898)
I think it is difficult to intentionally hit a catcher on the backswing without contorting unnaturally.


A batter at the ML level should have enough bat control to not hit the defenders barring exigent circumstance.
   30. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: June 13, 2014 at 12:11 PM (#4724919)
It was Alexei Ramirez (not Moss, of course), and he pretty much threw his bat into Norris' knee.


That's part of the problem. Batters are setting up as deep in the box as they can, in order to counter the 95+ heat they see so often. They're still swinging for the fences, which generates deep backswing. That's going to drive hitting the defender. Calling the batter out of ro interference there should help.
   31. DKDC Posted: June 13, 2014 at 12:19 PM (#4724937)
Norris got clocked again in the head two days ago by Erick Aybar, and also by Carlos Santana back in 2012.

On the other hand, Machado clipped Pierzynski this week (and apologized immediately), and he also caused backswing interference a few weeks ago that took away a SB.

I seems to me there are both batters and catchers with the propensity to be involved in these types of things, so I certainly wouldn’t support a rule that calls the batter out for backswing contact. It’s definitely something MLB should gather some data on and think about other ways to protect catchers, and it’s probably money well spent relative to the potential legal liability.
   32. beefshower Posted: June 13, 2014 at 12:22 PM (#4724943)
I am a Tigers fan and I have to say I am really surprised that Avila only shows up twice on the list DKDC posted in #22. It seems like Avila gets drilled with a back swing at least once a week. He is also a magnet for foul tips as it seems like at least once a game he get's shaken up by a foul tip off the mask. I was listening to a game on the Tigers radio this past week and the announcers (Dan Dickerson and Jim Price) mentioned in passing that the Tigers had started a study on why Avila seems more susceptible to foul tips and back swings than other catchers. They also mentioned the team was going to work on his positioning among other things behind the plate. The announcers didn't go into much detail beyond that but I thought it was kind of interesting and if the Tigers are successful in protecting Avila there might be other teams that might look into what they are doing (if they aren't already.)
   33. PreservedFish Posted: June 13, 2014 at 02:37 PM (#4725136)
and then got pitched inside by that A's, who missed him twice, but since the A's are darlings nobody slammed them as an org.


I was listening to sports talk radio here in Oakland in the day or two after Machado flipped out after the Donaldson tag, but before the backswing and thrown bat game happened. The topic, at every hour, was this: Why don't the A's ever retaliate? Is Bob Melvin correct to take the high road? Does it send a message to other teams that they can hurt the A's with impunity?

It was apparently a huge break with organizational tradition and philosophy to throw at a hitter, and was probably done because Melvin had reached the point where he truly believed that turning the other cheek might endanger his players.
   34. TJ Posted: June 13, 2014 at 02:56 PM (#4725171)
Having played baseball for 30-plus years himself, he should know very well that no one can foul a ball off the catcher's face anytime he wants to


Derek Jeter could, if he wanted to. Derek Jeter could intentionally foul a ball of the backup catchers facemask as it sat on a shelf in the dugout. Derek Jeter could intentionally foul a ball off the catcher's facemask in such a controlled way that the ball would rebound off the mask and carry over the right field wall and land in the lap of a child Jeter promised a ball to and have the ball ruled a home run by MLB...
   35. stanmvp48 Posted: June 13, 2014 at 03:33 PM (#4725224)
LMAO.
   36. bunyon Posted: June 13, 2014 at 03:55 PM (#4725249)
If there really is an upswing in these, intent shouldn't matter. I agree that it is hard to monitor the back of the batter's box. But it isn't hard to monitor the catcher getting hit. So, stand as far back as you like but if you hit the catcher with the backswing (including the glove), you're out and no runners may advance.

Yes, I'm advocating changing catcher's interference to hitter's interference. The umpire should be able to control where the catcher sets up much more easily.
   37. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: June 13, 2014 at 05:15 PM (#4725423)
6/19/11: After being hit in the head on a backswing, Russell Martin is attended to in the dugout by teammate Nick Swisher


What?
   38. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: June 13, 2014 at 05:23 PM (#4725427)
Yes, I'm advocating changing catcher's interference to hitter's interference. The umpire should be able to control where the catcher sets up much more easily.


My feeling is the catcher shouldn't be forced to stand back (and thus, further away the field of play and the bases he might throw to) just to stay out of harm's way from the batter.

I don't think you need to change catcher's interference, necessarily. but the batter connecting with the catcher on the follow through is an issue the sport might need to address if it is on the upswing (and I have no idea if it is - just that we're more aware of the issues with catcher health, specifically concussions, that we didn't worry about before).

   39. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: June 13, 2014 at 05:44 PM (#4725451)
So, stand as far back as you like but if you hit the catcher with the backswing (including the glove), you're out and no runners may advance.

Or just move the catcher back a little. This isn't hard. Avila is getting clipped all the time because he sits too damn close.
   40. Hysterical & Useless Posted: June 15, 2014 at 02:12 PM (#4726593)
The back line of the batter's box gets rubbed out very quickly (if not in the natural course of play then somebody will stand there and deliberately take care of it. Then everybody just sneaks farther back. As was mentioned above, most everybody takes really big swings nowadays, resulting in a very long follow-through. I have long thought that the back edge of the box should be more strictly enforced; use plastic strips that could be anchored in the ground so they don't just disappear during the second at bat of the game.

Then you can work on getting catchers to set up properly so that they're out of range. As things are now, with batters creeping farther and farther back throughout the game, there's only so far the catcher can go before the umpire's too far away to call the strike zone.
   41. #6bid is partially elite Posted: June 15, 2014 at 05:55 PM (#4726741)

Derek Jeter could intentionally foul a ball off the catcher's facemask in such a controlled way that the ball would rebound off the mask and carry over the right field wall and land in the lap of a child Jeter promised a ball to and have the ball ruled a home run by MLB...


Were you a scriptwriter for Hobbit: Desolation of Smaug?

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