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Friday, February 17, 2017

Texas Rangers: After almost killing someone, spending 3 years in prison, how Rangers’ Matt Bush is trying to reassemble his life | SportsDay

Evan Grant delves into Matt Bush’s struggle.

Jim Furtado Posted: February 17, 2017 at 09:00 AM | 107 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: matt bush, rangers

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   1. snowles Posted: February 17, 2017 at 09:35 AM (#5403600)
Yuck.
   2. Jose is El Absurd Pollo Posted: February 17, 2017 at 09:45 AM (#5403607)
It's a good article. It's obviously a fairly uncomfortable topic but Bush can't change the past and it seems like the steps he is taking are good for the future. I'm still perfectly content to boo the crap out of him though.
   3. ReggieThomasLives Posted: February 17, 2017 at 10:05 AM (#5403619)
He had so many chances. He didn't deserve one more.
   4. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 17, 2017 at 10:11 AM (#5403626)
He had so many chances. He didn't deserve one more.

I'm confident there are worse human beings playing pro sports, who also never paid for their misdeeds with 3 years in prison.
   5. Rusty Priske Posted: February 17, 2017 at 10:21 AM (#5403637)
I would be a lot more 'judgey' about Jose Reyes who was a scumbag and got away with it than I would be with Bush he did wrong, was nailed for it, punished, did his time, and is now trying to be a better person.
   6. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: February 17, 2017 at 10:26 AM (#5403643)
I'm confident there are worse human beings playing pro sports, who also never paid for their misdeeds with 3 years in prison.


And I'd be fine with looking down on them, too. Just because I boo the #### out of Bush doesn't mean I can't also boo the #### out of, say, Alfredo Simon.
   7. PreservedFish Posted: February 17, 2017 at 10:27 AM (#5403645)
He had so many chances. He didn't deserve one more.

What does this even mean? He should be in jail forever? He should be executed?
   8. baerga1 Posted: February 17, 2017 at 10:49 AM (#5403666)
He had so many chances. He didn't deserve one more.

What does this even mean? He should be in jail forever? He should be executed?


Or maybe Bush just beat RTL in a rousing game of Monopoly.
   9. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 17, 2017 at 10:50 AM (#5403668)
And I'd be fine with looking down on them, too. Just because I boo the #### out of Bush doesn't mean I can't also boo the #### out of, say, Alfredo Simon.

But if Bush has stopped doing bad things, what's the point of looking down on him? To feel better about yourself?

I understand disliking and booing unrpentent "evildoers", who are probably still doing wrong. But, if the guy has changed his ways, and paid a big price for his misdeeds, I don't see the point of the hostility.
   10. Shock Posted: February 17, 2017 at 10:54 AM (#5403673)
Is bbtf the most sanctimonious community on the internet?
   11. PreservedFish Posted: February 17, 2017 at 10:57 AM (#5403675)
Yeah I don't get booing him.
   12. Greg K Posted: February 17, 2017 at 11:01 AM (#5403677)
I understand disliking and booing unrpentent "evildoers", who are probably still doing wrong. But, if the guy has changed his ways, and paid a big price for his misdeeds, I don't see the point of the hostility.

It's an interesting tension in the Divine Comedy. At times Virgil applauds Dante for being a dick to the damned (or more often scolds Dante for pitying them), and at other times Virgil encourages him to treat certain damned with respect. They seem to be uniformly unrepentant. A common theme is that they blame someone else for their position, don't seem to grasp what their sin is, or just plain persist in the sin that got them there.

There does seem to be a egocentric purpose to Dante's treatment of them. He's clearly supposed to be learning something from the damned, and his reaction (whether sympathy or scorn) seems to be indicator of how well that learning is going. But there does seem to be some damned who deserve a measure of respect.

EDIT: Of course, the corollary for Bush might be purgatory rather than hell.
   13. Jose is El Absurd Pollo Posted: February 17, 2017 at 11:08 AM (#5403685)

I understand disliking and booing unrpentent "evildoers", who are probably still doing wrong. But, if the guy has changed his ways, and paid a big price for his misdeeds, I don't see the point of the hostility.


Some things are so bad that you get scorn forevermore. What those things are are best left to the individual to decide.
   14. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 17, 2017 at 11:14 AM (#5403692)
Some things are so bad that you get scorn forevermore.

Why? To what end?

If somebody flat out murders a person at 25, and does 40 years in prison, and honestly repents and trie his best to amend his life, you think we should all be dicks to him until the day he dies?

   15. Jose is El Absurd Pollo Posted: February 17, 2017 at 11:25 AM (#5403710)
If somebody flat out murders a person at 25, and does 40 years in prison, and honestly repents and trie his best to amend his life, you think we should all be dicks to him until the day he dies?


"Should" we? Probably not. But I'm human and my ability to forgive is limited. If someone murdered my family and found God in prison and did all kinds of good deeds eventually earning early release I don't think I'd be able to forgive that person. It's an emotional response. We have no obligation to like or respect anyone we find wanting.
   16. BDC Posted: February 17, 2017 at 11:30 AM (#5403718)
Some of the opprobrium must be motivated by the fact that Bush is getting well-paid, and cheered (at least by some) for playing baseball.

But of course, that's the best job he could get. If you'd be OK with him rebuilding his life while stocking shelves at Wal-Mart, then why not relief pitching?

But maybe there are some people who go to Wal-Mart to boo the stock clerks.
   17. Russ Posted: February 17, 2017 at 11:39 AM (#5403731)
He had so many chances. He didn't deserve one more.


Deserve ain't got nothing to do with it.
   18. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 17, 2017 at 11:46 AM (#5403739)
"Should" we? Probably not. But I'm human and my ability to forgive is limited. If someone murdered my family and found God in prison and did all kinds of good deeds eventually earning early release I don't think I'd be able to forgive that person.

And I get if the victim or victim's family can't forgive Bush. I wouldn't think badly of them if they were nasty towards Bush.

But what's the excuse for the rest of us?
   19. Eddo Posted: February 17, 2017 at 11:47 AM (#5403745)
And I get if the victim or victim's family can't forgive Bush. I wouldn't think badly of them if they were nasty towards Bush.

But what's the excuse for the rest of us?

Empathy for the victims?

I mean, I hear you - forgiveness is a good thing. But this is sports, and we root against players just for wearing a certain hat, so I think rooting against them because they killed someone years ago is OK, too.
   20. gef the talking mongoose Posted: February 17, 2017 at 11:51 AM (#5403750)

Some things are so bad that you get scorn forevermore. What those things are are best left to the individual to decide.


Obligatory --

"It's over. It's always been over."
   21. Man o' Schwar Posted: February 17, 2017 at 11:53 AM (#5403757)
But this is sports, and we root against players just for wearing a certain hat, so I think rooting against them because they killed someone years ago is OK, too.

We root against players on other teams during the game, not during their lifetimes. When Pujols was with the Cardinals, I'd root for him to strike out against the Cubs (sadly, it rarely happened). But after the game, I didn't continue to hold animosity toward him or wish that bad things would happen to him. If he had gotten killed in an offseason accident, I certainly wouldn't have been happy about it.

With Bush, it seems like people are not rooting against him during the game - they're rooting against him in life. I feel like if Bush were to get hit by a car tomorrow and have his career ended, this place would be full of people lining up to say "well, that's karma for you, enjoy your wheelchair jackass".

They are two very different things.
   22. gef the talking mongoose Posted: February 17, 2017 at 11:54 AM (#5403760)
0. Shock Posted: February 17, 2017 at 10:54 AM (#5403673)
Is bbtf the most sanctimonious community on the internet?


You need to get out ... well, actually, stay in ... more.
   23. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: February 17, 2017 at 12:13 PM (#5403782)
But if Bush has stopped doing bad things, what's the point of looking down on him? To feel better about yourself?


Just because he's stopped doing bad things (for now) doesn't mean that he's no longer a bad person.

Based on past interviews, I doubt Bush's sincerity, and I don't buy into his redemption narrative. I'm glad that he's not drinking anymore, since it reduces the threat that he poses to himself and the people around him, but if he's only doing it because he doesn't want to go back to jail rather than out of genuine contrition and desire for atonement, I don't see that as particularly praiseworthy.
   24. Brian C Posted: February 17, 2017 at 12:14 PM (#5403784)
"Should" we? Probably not. But I'm human and my ability to forgive is limited.

Try harder. You have nothing to forgive him for anyway, he didn't do anything to you.

At least Bush seems to be taking steps to be better. You, on the other hand, seem content to be a dick even as you acknowledge you're being one.
   25. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: February 17, 2017 at 12:17 PM (#5403787)
Some of the opprobrium must be motivated by the fact that Bush is getting well-paid, and cheered (at least by some) for playing baseball.

But of course, that's the best job he could get. If you'd be OK with him rebuilding his life while stocking shelves at Wal-Mart, then why not relief pitching?


I feel like something analogous to the ending of Goodfellas is appropriate here, where he has to live with the knowledge that life gave him a golden ticket and he willfully threw it away. He doesn't need to be crippled or homeless or starving or living in a gutter, but neither should he enjoy a position of respect and privilege, where his flaws are whitewashed and he's seen as a role model.
   26. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: February 17, 2017 at 12:24 PM (#5403790)
But maybe there are some people who go to Wal-Mart to boo the stock clerks.

The lazy overpaid one-dimensional stock clerks these days shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as the more fundamentally sound complete team player stock clerks in the 70's when I was growing up. These prima donnas now deserve all the boos I rain down on them.
   27. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: February 17, 2017 at 12:38 PM (#5403811)
To be totally fair, puff pieces like this one just put my back up. The Rangers are on some level embarrassed to have their brand associated with an #######, so they trade media access for free guerilla advertising. I don't much care for companies trying to shove #### down my brain-hole even at the best of times, even when the product being sold isn't "Matt Bush, a sane Christian who would never get drunk and drive over a dude's head." There's no way we'd be spending our morning reading about how Matt Bush has a dog and a girlfriend who loves him if he were a normal parolee working a normal job, rather than a pampered show pony propped up and enabled by an expensive support system just because he can throw a baseball real hard. And I feel like I'm complicit in the whole thing if I climb on board the Matt Bush redemption train and don't acknowledge that it's an endorsement of treating ex-cons like commodities, rather than people.

Did that make any sense? Maybe not. But it's how I feel, anyway.
   28. Khrushin it bro Posted: February 17, 2017 at 01:00 PM (#5403839)
Maybe the Rangers should change their name to the outlaws.
   29. Jose is El Absurd Pollo Posted: February 17, 2017 at 01:03 PM (#5403844)
Try harder. You have nothing to forgive him for anyway, he didn't do anything to you.

At least Bush seems to be taking steps to be better. You, on the other hand, seem content to be a dick even as you acknowledge you're being one.


I'll assume you've never booed or jeered anyone.
   30. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: February 17, 2017 at 01:08 PM (#5403848)
, but if he's only doing it because he doesn't want to go back to jail rather than out of genuine contrition and desire for atonement, I don't see that as particularly praiseworthy.


It's better than nothing.

Sure in a perfect world you shouldn't have to praise people for doing what they should have been doing all along (or fro stopping doing what they should never have been doing)

   31. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: February 17, 2017 at 01:13 PM (#5403849)
To be totally fair, puff pieces like this one just put my back up.


Yeah, it had my BS detector going off, but who knows? (Obviously Bush and people close to him might, I certainly don't)

Sometimes people do change, sometimes people do learn from their mistakes, some times... I think an issue here is that by all accounts Bush has been such a miserable POS, that him having an MLB career (even if he is sober and no longer committing felonies) just doesn't seem fair.
   32. Random Transaction Generator Posted: February 17, 2017 at 01:13 PM (#5403850)
But what's the excuse for the rest of us?


I'm a Jays fan, so I'm still allowed to think he's an a$$hole for plunking Bautista last year, right?
   33. Jose is El Absurd Pollo Posted: February 17, 2017 at 01:17 PM (#5403853)
Nah, not worth it.
   34. Brian C Posted: February 17, 2017 at 01:20 PM (#5403857)
I'll assume you've never booed or jeered anyone.

Actually, as it turns out, you're right, that's really not my thing. But then I'm a grown up, so there's that.
To be totally fair, puff pieces like this one just put my back up. The Rangers are on some level embarrassed to have their brand associated with an #######, so they trade media access for free guerilla advertising. I don't much care for companies trying to shove #### down my brain-hole even at the best of times, even when the product being sold isn't "Matt Bush, a sane Christian who would never get drunk and drive over a dude's head." There's no way we'd be spending our morning reading about how Matt Bush has a dog and a girlfriend who loves him if he were a normal parolee working a normal job, rather than a pampered show pony propped up and enabled by an expensive support system just because he can throw a baseball real hard. And I feel like I'm complicit in the whole thing if I climb on board the Matt Bush redemption train and don't acknowledge that it's an endorsement of treating ex-cons like commodities, rather than people.

Now this, I actually get. I'm not going to take issue with an ex-con trying to put his life back together. That's what ex-cons are supposed to do, after all.

But the marketing spin is ridiculous.
   35. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: February 17, 2017 at 01:21 PM (#5403858)
Yeah, it had my BS detector going off, but who knows? (Obviously Bush and people close to him might, I certainly don't)


It's kind of telling that they contacted Tufano, again, in order to get yet another "we forgive him but otherwise no comment," even though Tufano and his family have repeatedly indicated that they would prefer not to speak any further on the subject. A genuinely contrite and compassionate man would leave Tufano alone instead of badgering him with reminders about his suffering.
   36. Jose is El Absurd Pollo Posted: February 17, 2017 at 01:26 PM (#5403861)
It's kind of telling that they contacted Tufano, again, in order to get yet another "we forgive him but otherwise no comment," even though Tufano and his family have repeatedly indicated that they would prefer not to speak any further on the subject. A genuinely contrite and compassionate man would leave Tufano alone instead of badgering him with reminders about his suffering.


In fairness that was the writer of the article not Bush that contacted him wasn't it? If I'm reading it right it looks like Bush tried a couple of times shortly after the accident, was rebuffed, and has moved on.
   37. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 17, 2017 at 01:26 PM (#5403862)
Just because he's stopped doing bad things (for now) doesn't mean that he's no longer a bad person.

No, actually that's kind of the definition of no longer being a bad person. If you're no longer doing bad things, byt what definition are you bad?

All of us have temptations and inclinations to do bad things. Not doing them is what makes someone a good person rather than a bad one.

   38. Jose is El Absurd Pollo Posted: February 17, 2017 at 01:30 PM (#5403867)
Actually, as it turns out, you're right, that's really not my thing. But then I'm a grown up, so there's that.


That's twice in this thread you've decided to insult me. Which is fine, you're allowed to do that. But allow me to point out that I've not said anything negative about you and my initial comment was not directed at you.

It seems interesting that you think I'm a dick and childish for having an opinion about Matt Bush who didn't do anything to me but you feel appropriate to insult me despite me not do anything to you.
   39. Brian C Posted: February 17, 2017 at 01:35 PM (#5403871)
That's twice in this thread you've decided to insult me. Which is fine, you're allowed to do that. But allow me to point out that I've not said anything negative about you and my initial comment was not directed at you.

Well, the first was in reaction to you basically saying that you know it's not right but don't care. If that's not basically the definition of being a dick, I don't know what is.

The second wasn't directed at you specifically, if that helps. I just think booing is pretty childish in general.
   40. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: February 17, 2017 at 01:53 PM (#5403878)
No, actually that's kind of the definition of no longer being a bad person. If you're no longer doing bad things, byt what definition are you bad?


Matthew 5:27-28: "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery. But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."

Not doing bad things is important, but not sufficient. You also need to want to not do bad things and try to become the sort of person who doesn't want to do bad things, rather than merely refraining from doing them out of the fear of punishment by an external authority. You'll probably want to do them anyway, at least once in a while, because nobody's perfect. But you need to at least have the aspiration and put in a good effort.
   41. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: February 17, 2017 at 01:54 PM (#5403879)
In fairness that was the writer of the article not Bush that contacted him wasn't it? If I'm reading it right it looks like Bush tried a couple of times shortly after the accident, was rebuffed, and has moved on.


In theory, that's a reasonable defense, but in practice there's no way this reporter is writing this article if Bush and/or the Rangers aren't setting him on that path in the first place. They could have asked him not to bother the unhappy guy with life-altering injuries, and they apparently elected not to do so.
   42. Cargo Cultist Posted: February 17, 2017 at 02:34 PM (#5403898)
People rarely overcome their inner demons. I hate what Bush did, and I hate the light sentence he got for it, but we are where we are and I hope he's one of the rare few who actually overcomes his demons.

Because if he does, as a very visible pro athlete he can give hope to others in similar dark situations.
   43. Cargo Cultist Posted: February 17, 2017 at 02:40 PM (#5403903)
Maybe the Rangers should change their name to the outlaws.


No name change needed. There has always been a certain amount of outlawry among the real Rangers.
   44. Cargo Cultist Posted: February 17, 2017 at 02:41 PM (#5403905)
Second chances are good things. Third chances are not.
   45. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 17, 2017 at 02:49 PM (#5403911)
Not doing bad things is important, but not sufficient. You also need to want to not do bad things and try to become the sort of person who doesn't want to do bad things, rather than merely refraining from doing them out of the fear of punishment by an external authority. You'll probably want to do them anyway, at least once in a while, because nobody's perfect. But you need to at least have the aspiration and put in a good effort.

Right, but we can't know what's in someone else's heart. As long as you're not doing bad things, I should treat you as a decent person.
   46. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 17, 2017 at 02:51 PM (#5403913)
I hate what Bush did, and I hate the light sentence he got for it,

51 months in prison is light for a plea bargain in a case where no one died?

   47. Like Flies On Sherbert Posted: February 17, 2017 at 02:55 PM (#5403916)
Is bbtf the most sanctimonious community on the internet?


No, but it'd give the Spanish Inquisition a run for its money.
   48. Like Flies On Sherbert Posted: February 17, 2017 at 02:58 PM (#5403918)
Not doing bad things is important, but not sufficient. You also need to want to not do bad things and try to become the sort of person who doesn't want to do bad things, rather than merely refraining from doing them out of the fear of punishment by an external authority. You'll probably want to do them anyway, at least once in a while, because nobody's perfect. But you need to at least have the aspiration and put in a good effort.


Why? Not doing bad things should be sufficient. Trying to be a good person leads to sanctimony, denial of one's nature, and, ironically, evil deeds.
   49. Brian C Posted: February 17, 2017 at 03:00 PM (#5403919)
In theory, that's a reasonable defense, but in practice there's no way this reporter is writing this article if Bush and/or the Rangers aren't setting him on that path in the first place. They could have asked him not to bother the unhappy guy with life-altering injuries, and they apparently elected not to do so.

That seems like a stretch, though - it's standard practice to reach out to both sides in a story like this. And saying "We were going to reach out to the victim but Bush and the Rangers told us not to" would be pretty awful.
   50. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 17, 2017 at 03:02 PM (#5403921)
Second chances are good things. Third chances are not.
So... not big on that whole "three strikes" rule?
   51. Greg Pope Posted: February 17, 2017 at 03:13 PM (#5403933)
I think an issue here is that by all accounts Bush has been such a miserable POS, that him having an MLB career (even if he is sober and no longer committing felonies) just doesn't seem fair.

I was trying to put into words how I felt, and I think this sums it up. From stories that I read about him when he was younger, I probably didn't want him to put his life back together. He seemed like a real a-hole and when he was in jail, it felt like karma.

Contrast this with Michael Vick. It didn't seem to me like he was a jerk. He was involved in dog fighting, but he didn't seem to realize that it was wrong. It was just a learned part of his culture. Once he went to jail, he admitted he was wrong. He educated himself. And when he got out, he talked to all sorts of groups about how wrong dog fighting was. He actively has campaigned to end it. That strikes as something worth applauding.

I don't expect that everyone would agree with me. Maybe I'm making up a distinction there. But I was trying to figure out why I would support Vick and not Bush, and the comment above seems to crystalize it for me. Now I need to think about whether I should see a difference.
   52. Cargo Cultist Posted: February 17, 2017 at 03:14 PM (#5403935)
51 in prison is light for a plea bargain in a case where no one died? in prison is light for a plea bargain in a case where no one died?


"Bush was arrested and charged with two counts of DUI with property damage, one count of DUI with serious bodily injury, one count of leaving the scene of an accident with an injury, one count of driving with a suspended license, and 2 counts of leaving the scene of an accident with damage to property."

Ten years of time served should have been about the absolute minimum for that collection of crimes.
   53. Cargo Cultist Posted: February 17, 2017 at 03:19 PM (#5403943)
So... not big on that whole "three strikes" rule?


I would reduce it to a two-strike rule for violent crimes. Get convicted of two violent crimes, or three of any kind as it is in many states today, get an automatic life sentence. Keeping America safe requires keeping career criminals, especially violent ones, off the street.
   54. JAHV Posted: February 17, 2017 at 03:20 PM (#5403944)
I just think booing is pretty childish in general.


It doesn't strike me as all that much more childish than picking a random group of guys all wearing the same strange outfit and paying to watch them play a game while cheering for them despite not knowing any of those guys. Sports fandom is childish by its very nature. That's one if its features. Sure, there are ways it can manifest where it definitely crosses a line, but booing is harmless, and if it increases your enjoyment of attending a sporting event, go right ahead.
   55. Dr. Vaux Posted: February 17, 2017 at 03:32 PM (#5403958)
The problem is that when people do things and say things knowing that in return they'll get millions of dollars, it's pretty easy to doubt their sincerity. Of course, it doesn't have to be millions of dollars; people always do things for reasons other than pure inner motivation, so it's not necessarily bad to be insincere.

The vitriol really comes from the observation that it's easy to "put your life back together" when the good job part of that equation is possible to get. For these athletes, it is. For the average ex-convict, not so much. If the guy played baseball or football at a high level before he went to prison, people will line up to hire him again when he comes out. But if the guy worked in a normal job before he went to prison, he'll never work at anything higher than minimum wage again. So why should that guy go back to following the law? That's the biggest factor contributing to recidivism. If the world worked for everyone like it does for Matt ####### Bush, people would just do their time and resume their lives, chastened and improved, and we'd let bygones be bygones.
   56. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: February 17, 2017 at 03:39 PM (#5403964)
but he didn't seem to realize that it was wrong. It was just a learned part of his culture.


Did you read about what Vick actually did to some of those dogs?
   57. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 17, 2017 at 03:49 PM (#5403972)
Did you read about what Vick actually did to some of those dogs?

Yeah, what Vick did was sick ####. Way worse than mere violence. There are lots of murderers I hold in higher regard than Michael Vick.
   58. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 17, 2017 at 03:50 PM (#5403974)
"Bush was arrested and charged with two counts of DUI with property damage, one count of DUI with serious bodily injury, one count of leaving the scene of an accident with an injury, one count of driving with a suspended license, and 2 counts of leaving the scene of an accident with damage to property."

Ten years of time served should have been about the absolute minimum for that collection of crimes.


That's not remotely in line with how our criminal justice system works. People that intentionally cause severe bodily harm rarely serve ten years. Lots of rapists and people convicted of manslaughter get out before 10 years.

I would reduce it to a two-strike rule for violent crimes. Get convicted of two violent crimes, or three of any kind as it is in many states today, get an automatic life sentence. Keeping America safe requires keeping career criminals, especially violent ones, off the street.

You're giving someone life for 2 muggings, or two burglaries, or two assaults? That's flat out insane.

Grossly disproportionate punishment is inherently unjust.

The only crimes that justify life imprisonment are murder, rape, and possibly aggravated assaukt where the victim is permanently crippled.
   59. Brian C Posted: February 17, 2017 at 03:55 PM (#5403979)
If the world worked for everyone like it does for Matt ####### Bush, people would just do their time and resume their lives, chastened and improved, and we'd let bygones be bygones.

That sounds like a good argument for making things better for everyone else, but not so much a good reason to tear down the few who caught a lucky break.
It doesn't strike me as all that much more childish than picking a random group of guys all wearing the same strange outfit and paying to watch them play a game while cheering for them despite not knowing any of those guys. Sports fandom is childish by its very nature.

You're confusing the term "childish" with "trivial". There's nothing really childish about being a sports fan, like there is with having a temper tantrum when you see someone you don't like.

Sports is trivial, in the grand scheme of things. That's just not the same as being childish.
   60. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 17, 2017 at 03:58 PM (#5403985)
The vitriol really comes from the observation that it's easy to "put your life back together" when the good job part of that equation is possible to get. For these athletes, it is. For the average ex-convict, not so much. If the guy played baseball or football at a high level before he went to prison, people will line up to hire him again when he comes out. But if the guy worked in a normal job before he went to prison, he'll never work at anything higher than minimum wage again. So why should that guy go back to following the law? That's the biggest factor contributing to recidivism. If the world worked for everyone like it does for Matt ####### Bush, people would just do their time and resume their lives, chastened and improved, and we'd let bygones be bygones.

It's simple supply and demand. If you're really good at what you do, people overlook the criminal past. If not, why would they take the risk versus another person who's exactly as qualified?
   61. Bug Selig Posted: February 17, 2017 at 04:04 PM (#5403990)
This thread is nuts. Until just a few minutes ago, I thought we each got to form our own notions of who is worthy of our praise and goodwill and who isn't. Glad that's been cleared up.
   62. Brian C Posted: February 17, 2017 at 04:07 PM (#5403994)
This thread is nuts. Until just a few minutes ago, I thought we each got to form our own notions of who is worthy of our praise and goodwill and who isn't. Glad that's been cleared up.

I have a fainting couch available if people expressing opinions on a message board is too much for you.
   63. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 17, 2017 at 04:09 PM (#5403997)
This thread is nuts. Until just a few minutes ago, I thought we each got to form our own notions of who is worthy of our praise and goodwill and who isn't. Glad that's been cleared up.

Right. And then other people get to form their notions about what your choice says about you.
   64. Dr. Vaux Posted: February 17, 2017 at 04:10 PM (#5403998)
The point is that in this type of case, praising someone for doing something that he has every incentive to do is tantamount to disparaging someone for not doing something that he has no incentive to do.
   65. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 17, 2017 at 04:13 PM (#5404000)
The point is that in this type of case, praising someone for doing something that he has every incentive to do is tantamount to disparaging someone for not doing something that he has no incentive to do.

I for one am not praising Matt Bush at all. I'm just saying that people wishing him ill are going too far.
   66. Zach Posted: February 17, 2017 at 04:23 PM (#5404008)
They could have asked him not to bother the unhappy guy with life-altering injuries, and they apparently elected not to do so.

Journalists consider it a big no-no to let the subject of a story dictate who you talk to. In this case, it would be a convicted criminal telling you not to talk to the victim.

The victim doesn't have to talk if he doesn't want to, but that's his decision, not Bush's.
   67. AuntBea Posted: February 17, 2017 at 04:26 PM (#5404011)
I just think booing is pretty childish in general.


You're confusing the term "childish" with "trivial". There's nothing really childish about being a sports fan, like there is with having a temper tantrum when you see someone you don't like.


I very seldom go to games and can't recall ever booing, but I was under the impression that most booing wasn't a result of having a temper tantrum, but was more like the other side of the coin of cheering.

In some feisty soccer crowds, for the entire 90 minutes the crowd will cheer while their team has the ball and whistle (a euro form of booing) when the opponents have the ball.
   68. ReggieThomasLives Posted: February 17, 2017 at 04:33 PM (#5404015)
My problem with the article is it downplays his horrific history almost entirely.

A few weeks after the Padres drafted him in 2004, Bush was arrested on suspicion of felony assault, misdemeanor trespass, disorderly conduct, and underage drinking, after he allegedly fought with security trying to escort him out of a bar.[18]

In early 2009, Bush was allegedly involved in a drunken assault at a San Diego high school, which was caught on camera. According to witnesses, a drunken Bush beat up a high school lacrosse player with a golf club while screaming, "I'm Matt ####### Bush!", which was recorded on videotape. This led the Padres to designate Bush for assignment following the team's signing of Floyd and then trade him to the Blue Jays.[3][8] Only a month later, he assaulted and berated a woman at a party in Florida, and was released by the Blue Jays for violating a "zero tolerance" agreement.[11]


Mugshot from the Charlotte County Sheriff's Office.
On March 22, 2012, Bush was arrested and charged with two counts of DUI with property damage, one count of DUI with serious bodily injury, one count of leaving the scene of an accident with an injury, one count of driving with a suspended license, and 2 counts of leaving the scene of an accident with damage to property. In the incident, Bush hit 72-year-old motorcyclist Tony Tufano on the Tamiami Trail (U.S. Route 41) northbound in Port Charlotte, Florida, running over his head as he fled the scene in a Dodge Durango belonging to teammate Brandon Guyer. According to a witness, Tufano survived the incident because he was wearing a helmet.[19] Bush was arrested in North Port, three miles down the road from the accident. He was on the road after getting kicked out of a nearby strip club for trying to climb on the stage. When he was arrested, Bush had a blood alcohol content of .18, more than double the legal limit in Florida.[13] Bush spent the 2012 season housed at the Charlotte County Jail on $440,000 bail (reduced from an initial $1.015 million bond), and pleaded not guilty at his arraignment (via closed-circuit TV from the Charlotte County Jail) on May 21. Bush remains a suspect in two other hit and run accidents further north on the Tamiami Trail in Venice that occurred earlier that day.[20] The following Sunday, Rays general manager Andrew Friedman announced that Bush would never play for the Rays organization again.[21] The Rays placed Bush on the restricted list for the 2012 season, meaning that he was no longer on the 40-man roster, nor did he accumulate service time.[22] He was officially released on October 6.

On December 18, Bush accepted a plea bargain and pleaded no contest to one count of DUI with great bodily injury. He was sentenced to 51 months in prison. As this was Bush's third DUI conviction in 10 years, he was ineligible to drive legally in Florida for 10 years after his release from prison. In the process, Bush turned down a deal that had less prison time (3 years), but with 7 years probation owing to past alcoholism issues.[23][24] The Tufanos filed a $5 million civil suit against Bush, but settled in 2013 for a reported $200,000.[25]


I'm all for 2nd chances, but not for 4th, 5th, 6th etc chances. My sister never got a second chance after her drunk driver killed her. it's pure luck Matt didn't kill someone on multiple occasions, i don't think he should be allowed to play in the MLB. He's a self centered jerk, and when the leash gets loosened there is a not insignificant chance he does it again.
   69. Greg Pope Posted: February 17, 2017 at 04:38 PM (#5404017)
Did you read about what Vick actually did to some of those dogs?

I have not. I admit that it might change my opinion.
   70. Cargo Cultist Posted: February 17, 2017 at 05:22 PM (#5404048)
That's not remotely in line with how our criminal justice system works. People that intentionally cause severe bodily harm rarely serve ten years. Lots of rapists and people convicted of manslaughter get out before 10 years.


Bush has three previous arrests for drunken violence, and therefore has a well-established history. He would get at least 2 to 3 years consecutively on each of the DWI counts and three to four on the others, so at least ten. You may live in La-La Land, where the laws are not enforced, but I don't.
   71. Cargo Cultist Posted: February 17, 2017 at 05:26 PM (#5404058)
You're giving someone life for 2 muggings, or two burglaries, or two assaults? That's flat out insane.


Burglaries are crimes against property and not crimes of violence, but I guess you're not smart enough to know that.

Insanity would be torturing them to death. Severity would be hanging them. Putting away a violent repeat criminal who has shown his unwillingness to reform in order to protect the rest of society is extremely sane and just.

Many states already have this policy in place for three such crimes. I would just move it up to two. What you call "insanity" is just fine tuning. But then you're an idiot liberal, so you probably can't understand that either.
   72. bookbook Posted: February 17, 2017 at 05:39 PM (#5404069)
Not doing bad things is important, but not sufficient. You also need to want to not do bad things and try to become the sort of person who doesn't want to do bad things, rather than merely refraining from doing them out of the fear of punishment by an external authority. You'll probably want to do them anyway, at least once in a while, because nobody's perfect. But you need to at least have the aspiration and put in a good effort.


On the other hand, if you want not to do bad things merely because you don't want to do bad things, you're not actually overcoming anything. For Matt Bush, Michael Vick, and others (the current President springs to mind), going through a day without acting dastardly is a true moral accomplishment. For most of us, that's just a Tuesday. No star needed, or deserved.
   73. Brian C Posted: February 17, 2017 at 05:43 PM (#5404072)
But then you're an idiot liberal

Probably the first time snapper's been called a liberal.
   74. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 17, 2017 at 05:53 PM (#5404082)
Burglaries are crimes against property and not crimes of violence, but I guess you're not smart enough to know that.

Look who's not so smart. Burglary has long been considered a violent crime under common law, and that has been reaffirmed by the U.S. Supreme Court, due to the danger of confrontation with the residents. See James vs United States (2007).

But then you're an idiot liberal


Probably the first time snapper's been called a liberal.

You think he maybe has the wrong guy?

   75. Fancy Pants with a clinging marmoset on his Handle Posted: February 17, 2017 at 06:13 PM (#5404092)
Burglaries are crimes against property and not crimes of violence, but I guess you're not smart enough to know that.

So are all but two of Bush's collection of crimes, that had you wanting to put him away for life.

"Bush was arrested and charged with two counts of DUI with property damage, one count of DUI with serious bodily injury, one count of leaving the scene of an accident with an injury, one count of driving with a suspended license, and 2 counts of leaving the scene of an accident with damage to property."

Ten years of time served should have been about the absolute minimum for that collection of crimes.


You can't have it both ways. Either that "collection of crimes" is relevant, in which case all crimes against property are, or that collection really is just one count of "drunk driver hit a guy and drove off".
   76. Infinite Yost (Voxter) Posted: February 17, 2017 at 06:43 PM (#5404109)
Do you think CC calls people idiots because he's been called that so many times that it's the only insult he can think of?
   77. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: February 17, 2017 at 06:49 PM (#5404114)
Probably the first time snapper's been called a liberal.

You think he maybe has the wrong guy?


hey you're the bleeding heart who said:

Grossly disproportionate punishment is inherently unjust.


What's he supposed to think about that huh? huh? only a bleeding heart liberal would say something like that.

:-)
   78. Brian C Posted: February 17, 2017 at 07:13 PM (#5404119)
You think he maybe has the wrong guy?

No, because he got the idiot part right!!

(rimshot)

Kidding! Actually I agree with you 100% on what you're saying here.
   79. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: February 17, 2017 at 07:28 PM (#5404131)
On the other hand, if you want not to do bad things merely because you don't want to do bad things, you're not actually overcoming anything.
This is something that doesn't get brought up enough. I know exactly two people I'd consider to be saintly, and I get the impression that from both of them their saintliness is just their nature. They're wonderful people, but the guy I know who's learned the art of counting to ten in an effort to keep from angrily yelling at people is much more of a moral hero, even if he fails in his efforts more often than any of us would like.

That said, I know he's sincere in his efforts to improve himself. I have no way of knowing if Bush is truly repentant, or merely wants to stay out of jail.

(I also feel awful for Tufano. He seems like a guy who was enjoying his retirement, who is now doomed to spend his last few years as a wreck. That's horrible.)
   80. Cargo Cultist Posted: February 17, 2017 at 07:39 PM (#5404141)
Look who's not so smart. Burglary has long been considered a violent crime under common law, and that has been reaffirmed by the U.S. Supreme Court, due to the danger of confrontation with the residents. See James vs United States (2007).


The guy who is not so smart is you. Both the federal Uniform Crime Reports and the federal National Crime Victimization Survey, both of which I've done analytical work on, list it as a property crime. The Supreme Court has treated burglary as either violent or non-violent, depending on the circumstances. But no way is simple burglary with no one home a crime of violence. There's no one to be violent TO.
   81. Cargo Cultist Posted: February 17, 2017 at 07:41 PM (#5404143)
So are all but two of Bush's collection of crimes, that had you wanting to put him away for life.


Christ, you people are dumb. I think he should have got about a ten year sentence and said so.
   82. Walt Davis Posted: February 17, 2017 at 07:55 PM (#5404152)
CC is not a man for details. Regardless of what Bush was charged with, he plead guilty only to the one count of DUI with serious bodily injury and therefore that is all that he can be punished for. I don't know what a typical sentence is for that but to argue he should have been given a harsher sentence requires establishing the fact that 51 months is not sufficient for what he was convicted of. If you feel that he should not have been allowed to plea to only one of the counts then your argument is with the county prosecutor not Bush.
   83. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 17, 2017 at 08:19 PM (#5404166)
The guy who is not so smart is you. Both the federal Uniform Crime Reports and the federal National Crime Victimization Survey, both of which I've done analytical work on, list it as a property crime. The Supreme Court has treated burglary as either violent or non-violent, depending on the circumstances. But no way is simple burglary with no one home a crime of violence. There's no one to be violent TO.

Again, the case I cited is exactly on point to your example. The Supreme Court ruled that burglary is a violent crime for the purposes of a "three-strikes your out" law requiring three violent crimes.

WTF is "simple burglary with no one home"? There's no way for the criminal to know that no one is home.

The law has always allowed home owners to resist burglary with force, including deadly force. That's not indicative of a mere property crime.
   84. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: February 17, 2017 at 08:24 PM (#5404167)
Just out of curiosity, is punching hippies a violent crime?
   85. Brian C Posted: February 17, 2017 at 09:09 PM (#5404171)
Just out of curiosity, is punching hippies a violent crime?

No, but millionaire ballplayers loafing to first on a routine grounder is.
   86. Lassus Posted: February 18, 2017 at 06:48 AM (#5404221)
There's no way for the criminal to know that no one is home.

Have you lost your mind?
   87. Scott Lange Posted: February 18, 2017 at 09:45 AM (#5404262)
You would think a cite to a directly-on-point, recent Supreme Court case refuting someone's legal opinion would shut that person up, but...
   88. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 18, 2017 at 12:23 PM (#5404311)

Have you lost your mind?


No. A seemingly empty house could in fact contain a resident.

Say there are no cars in the driveway, and all the lights are out. How do you know the teenage kid or the elderly grandparent isn't home alone sleeping?
   89. Best Dressed Chicken in Town Posted: February 18, 2017 at 02:00 PM (#5404335)
Maybe Cargo Cultist is sitting there in the dark, a .357 in his right hand, slowly stroking his Doberman's #### with his left.
   90. manchestermets Posted: February 18, 2017 at 06:50 PM (#5404451)
Ten years of time served should have been about the absolute minimum for that collection of crimes.


Christ, you people are dumb. I think he should have got about a ten year sentence and said so.


Yes, because "should have been the absolute minimum" definitely means the same as "about". Also, ten years time served is likely a significantly longer sentence than 10 years.


Is this an SBB sockpuppet?
   91. Bug Selig Posted: February 20, 2017 at 12:57 PM (#5405033)
I have a fainting couch available if people expressing opinions on a message board is too much for you.
Says the guy who is pissing all over somebody else's. Gotcha.
   92. PreservedFish Posted: February 20, 2017 at 02:47 PM (#5405143)
Just out of curiosity, is punching hippies a violent crime?


This was a knockout comment.
   93. Ron J Posted: February 20, 2017 at 03:04 PM (#5405163)
#90 No. His is a special kind of idiocy.
   94. Lassus Posted: February 20, 2017 at 03:21 PM (#5405179)
No. A seemingly empty house could in fact contain a resident.
Say there are no cars in the driveway, and all the lights are out. How do you know the teenage kid or the elderly grandparent isn't home alone sleeping?


You didn't say "there's no way for a criminal who happens upon a dark house to know that no one is home", which I would have agreed with. But there are thieves who actually pay attention to those coming and going before robbing the place. There are plenty of ways for a criminal to be sure that no one's there.
   95. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 20, 2017 at 03:52 PM (#5405205)
There are plenty of ways for a criminal to be sure that no one's there.

Sure? No. They can have a high degree of certainty, but they can't be sure.
   96. The Good Face Posted: February 20, 2017 at 04:13 PM (#5405223)
But there are thieves who actually pay attention to those coming and going before robbing the place.


I hate to burst any bubbles here, but your average burglar isn't really a criminal mastermind. The vast majority of them are just looking for an opportunistic smash and grab, not engaging in detailed surveillance to perpetrate some ingenious Ocean's 11 style plan.
   97. Lassus Posted: February 20, 2017 at 04:17 PM (#5405228)
I hate to burst any bubbles here, but your average burglar isn't really a criminal mastermind.

I am indeed aware of this. But such people exist, and it's not exactly an ingenious cinematic mastermind plan to make sure no one's home.
   98. The Good Face Posted: February 20, 2017 at 04:39 PM (#5405253)
I am indeed aware of this. But such people exist, and it's not exactly an ingenious cinematic mastermind plan to make sure no one's home.


Most burglaries in the US do take place when the residents aren't home, in part because residents can call the cops and/or shoot burglars in the US. But that's not because burglars carefully stake out targets. They mostly look for places that seem easy to break into and that appear to have nobody home, but they seldom "make sure". That's because burglary is pretty much a terrible ROI unless you're some sort of fictional cat burglar/jewel thief who only targets the fabulously wealthy.* Most burglars tend to be the desperate, the stupid, the addicted, or some combination of the three. Interestingly enough, in the UK burglaries are far more likely to happen when people are home, probably because there's no risk of getting shot.

* I read a fascinating account a few years ago about a real life cat burglar, who was very skilled at B&E and very knowledgeable about what sort of valuables would fetch the best return. He did over a hundred burglaries a year and it took years before he was finally caught. He wound up clearing around $60k a year; apparently fences don't pay super well. Burglary is just a shitty way to make a living.
   99. ReggieThomasLives Posted: February 20, 2017 at 05:02 PM (#5405272)
Yes, but he didn't have a 9-5 or a boss, that's gotta be worth a prison stint.
   100. The Good Face Posted: February 20, 2017 at 05:14 PM (#5405278)
Yes, but he didn't have a 9-5 or a boss, that's gotta be worth a prison stint.


Yeah, but this guy was basically the Barry Bonds of burglars! And he was risking his life and committing hundreds of felonies a year for not much money.
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