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Saturday, November 03, 2012

TFT: Mitchell: The Hall of Fame and these Giants

Must locate my ‘68 Junior Scholastic issue (“Robot Fang Blennies: Just a Fad?”) that got all bubbly about Jim Ray Hart’s HOF chances.

This second World Series win in three years is a fantastic accomplishment for the San Francisco Giants; and it is also an opportunity to reflect on some of the players who were key parts of this win and, in some cases, both World Series wins by taking a brief, if early, look at there Hall of Fame chances.  There are four players on the team Buster Posey, Pablo Sandoval, Matt Cain, Tim Lincecum, who have played well enough to establish a chance at being elected to the Hall of Fame.Interestingly, these four players were among the few holdovers from 2010 to be part of the 2012 team.  The remaining Giants are either two young or are clearly not on a Hall of Fame path.

...Pablo Sandoval is an intriguing Hall of Fame possibility because many fans do not realize that he just completed his age 25 season and has had two very strong years, 2009 and 2011, as well as an off-year in 2010 and an unspectacular 2012.  Nonetheless, Sandoval is one of only 95 players to accumulate 2,000 plate appearances with an OPS+ of 125 or better, Sandoval’s thus far is 129, by the end of his age 25 season.  Of those 95 players, 40 are already in the Hall of Fame or still on the ballot, while another 15 are still active.  For Sandoval to get in the Hall of Fame, he will have to maintain or improve on this level of offensive performance for another decade or so which will be difficult, but many of the players who started out the way the Panda did, have managed to do that.  A bigger challenge for the Panda will be to stay healthy and keep his weight under control, particularly as this will allow him to remain a third baseman longer.  Sandoval’s is a very difficult future to anticipate because in five years he could be one of the top hitters in the game or he could have eaten his way out of the starting lineup or even the sport.  If Sandoval ends up with borderline numbers he, like Lincecum, will be helped by his memorable nickname and personal style.  His three home runs in the first game of this recent World Series won’t hurt either.

Repoz Posted: November 03, 2012 at 07:27 AM | 36 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: giants, hof

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   1. Bug Selig Posted: November 03, 2012 at 08:36 AM (#4291508)
EDIT - Never mind.
   2. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: November 03, 2012 at 08:49 AM (#4291515)
These Giants remind me of the 1998 Yankees. Aside from the aging Tim Raines (who is qualified but may not make it), they had no obvious HOFers, but a lot of young potential: Jeter, Pettitte, Bernie, Posada, Rivera, but no one really established yet. If I had to pick one and only one to make it (aside from Raines), it probably would have been Cone or Bernie.

For the Giants, I'll take Posey.
   3. BDC Posted: November 03, 2012 at 09:27 AM (#4291524)
Initially, of course, I thought the mention of Sandoval was inane, but here are comps for Sandoval: careers through age 25, centered on him in terms of PAs and OPS+, with WAR Fielding Runs and Stolen Bases for additional info:

Rk            Player Rfield   PA OPS+  SB     Pos
1      John Mayberry     
-3 2082  134   8    *3/D
2       Tony Lazzeri      9 2428  133  62   
*4/65
3       Bobby Murcer    
-12 2044  133  38  *89/56
4      Richie Hebner    
-21 2515  131   8    *5/3
5       Bill Bradley     28 2362  129  65  
*5/361
6     Pablo Sandoval      2 2311  129  11  
*5/32D
7         Kent Hrbek     15 2547  128   9    
*3/D
8        Rick Monday     
-7 2401  128  53    *8/7
9        Braggo Roth     
-9 2074  127 145  *9/857
10         Joe Mauer    
-10 2388  127  30    *2/D
11    Enos Slaughter      7 2149  126  15   
*9/87
12       Scott Rolen     36 2552  125  50      
*5
13       Kip Selbach     11 2177  125 147 
*7/9648
14   Ginger Beaumont     
-1 2336  125 127  *8/739
15          Jim Wynn    
-22 2348  125  81  *8/765
16        Steve Kemp    
-12 2483  124  15   *7/D9
17        Joe Morgan    
-38 2573  124 113   *4/78 


Three HOFers, with some other HOM and HOVG types mixed in. Plus Bill Bradley is in the Basketball Hall of Fame.

Sandoval's problem in reaching the HOF is not going to be his hitting ability per se, but the intersection of that with his glove. Hall of Famers who hit like Sandoval are middle infielders, or catchers, if Joe Mauer keeps up the good work. Somewhere between John Mayberry (Sr.) and Richie Hebner sounds much more like Sandoval's upside career at the moment. They were better ballplayers than I remembered, and had fine, substantial careers, but the Hall of Fame is not really on the cards unless Sandoval gets a whole lot better and more durable.

Posey has an obvious shot, though at the age of 14 with just 3 years' experience it's futile to project. Pitchers, one never knows. TFA pegs their cases correctly as of now, and Cain and Lincecum are at peak as good as many a HOF pitcher, but you just absolutely never know which way a pitcher's career will go.

EDIT: Admittedly, Enos Slaughter of the HOF/HOM was not a middle infielder or catcher. But he's got to be the least likely comp for Sandoval on Earth. Slaughter played till he was about 61 years old, and Sandoval could carry an Enos Slaughter on each shoulder around the bases with no noticeable drop in speed.
   4. bjhanke Posted: November 03, 2012 at 10:05 AM (#4291551)
Bob - I'm aware you may have made a joke here, and if so, I did get it, but just in case - the Bill Bradley on this list was a power-hitting Gold Glove quality third baseman for Cleveland at the start of the American League. He was well on his way to the Hall of Fame (which didn't exist at the time any more than the Gold Glove did, of course), until a series of injuries and illnesses destroyed his career between 1905-1907. He was not, that I am aware, related at all to the basketball player from Crystal City, MO. It's worth noting that the two numbers that really stick out on the list are Bradley's and Rolen's Rfield numbers. OPS+ is fine, but OPS+ AND a Gold Glove is something more. - Brock Hanke
   5. BDC Posted: November 03, 2012 at 11:04 AM (#4291577)
No, of course, Brock, the later Bill Bradley was too busy with Rhodes Scholarships and plotting his political rise to play a few years in MLB à la his pal Dave DeBusschere :)

OPS+ AND a Gold Glove is something more

Indeed, and even at that, as we've noted in several HOF threads, the BBWAA is not likely to go nuts over Rolen (though he's a safe, and deserving, bet for the HOM). Still less Sandoval, who is adequate for now (good instincts in the infield, it seems to me, and quick enough with a good arm) – but doesn't figure to morph into Aurelio Rodriguez mid-career.
   6. Tippecanoe Posted: November 03, 2012 at 12:37 PM (#4291626)
Seems like I should have known that Bill Bradley was from Crystal City. The Bottle Rockets are also from there, I believe.
   7. cardsfanboy Posted: November 03, 2012 at 12:42 PM (#4291630)
Seems like I should have known that Bill Bradley was from Crystal City.


My Sister, Nephew and Niece live there, they have mentioned Bill Bradley before, I never put it together that he was the hof baskeball player(mind you I'm not a basketball guy so that could explain it)
   8. cardsfanboy Posted: November 03, 2012 at 01:33 PM (#4291683)
I always like trying to figure out who will be a future hofer on a team. I think it's more fun to figure out who will be the surprise guy who does just enough when he's under 30 to have the post 30 hof career. Just looking at the 1980 Padres, did anyone see Ozzie Smith as a future hofer?
   9. phredbird Posted: November 03, 2012 at 01:37 PM (#4291692)
Posey has an obvious shot, though at the age of 14 with just 3 years' experience it's futile to project.


he's got a chance at some serious counting stats!
   10. bjhanke Posted: November 03, 2012 at 02:45 PM (#4291793)
Bob -Thanks for the confirmation - I was about 97% sure you were kidding there, but there was always the off chance....

I'm old enough to remember Bill Bradley the basketball player. Crystal City isn't far south of STL - any closer and it would be a suburb - but the STL fans really became fans of his in spite of his taking his team right through STL high schools in the state tourney every year, and then not going to Mizzou to play. For those of you who are not basketball fans, Bill was a big forward who could shoot from anywhere, and is in the NBA Hall of Fame, I think, although probably in the outer circle. Yes, I've heard that the Bottle Rockets are from CC, too. For those of you not in the STL area, they are one damn good bar band, if they ever show up in your town. The Padres knew Ozzie had a Gold Glove and enough bat to be really worth something, but, like the Garry Templeton for whom he was traded, he had become disgruntled with his management and was acting out in public about it. The big difference is that, while both players got over being prima donnas when traded, Garry just coasted on his talents for the rest of his career, while Ozzie kept working on developing his into the Hall. I don't know if the Padres knew about his work ethic at the time they had him or not, I do know that Whitey Herzog knew about it. - Brock
   11. BDC Posted: November 03, 2012 at 03:14 PM (#4291835)
Cheers, Brock! Bradley is in the Basketball HOF as a college player; he would not be there on his NBA career alone, though it was decent enough. I know him best as a writer, because he is one of the very few pro athletes to have written every word of his own memoirs (others include Ken Dryden, Michael Oriard, and Pat Jordan). His book Life on the Run (as Bradley agreed with me the one time I met him :) is very good.
   12. Walt Davis Posted: November 03, 2012 at 04:03 PM (#4291907)
Richie Hebner sounds much more like Sandoval's upside career at the moment. They were better ballplayers than I remembered

Hebner was something of a product of his times, being platooned pretty heavily throughout his career. Murtaugh especially loved the mix-n-match lineups. For example on the 71 Pirates:

1B: Roberston, Oliver, Davalillo
2B: Cash, Stennett, Maz
3B: Hebner, Pagan, Cash
SS: Alley, Hernandez
LF: Stargell, Clines (but that was genuine backup really)
CF: Oliver, Clines, Davalillo
RF: Clemente, Davalillo, Clines

Much the same in 72:

1B: Stargell, Robertson (66)
2B: Cash, Stennett (49), Max (14)
3B: Hebner, Pagan (31), Robertson (11)
SS: Alley, Hernandez (61)
LF: Davalillo, Stargell, Clines, Stennett, Robertson all had 20+
CF: Oliver, Clines (16)
RF: Clemente, Clines (38), Davalillo (31)

Ahh, the joys of 10-man pitching staffs.
   13. Steve Treder Posted: November 03, 2012 at 05:01 PM (#4291980)
Just looking at the 1980 Padres, did anyone see Ozzie Smith as a future hofer?

Certainly not, and meanwhile many saw Garry Templeton as a future HOFer.
   14. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: November 03, 2012 at 05:16 PM (#4291991)
Hall of Famers who hit like Sandoval are middle infielders, or catchers, if Joe Mauer keeps up the good work.

I think that overstates the case against him, as he could also take the "long, productive career" route to the HOF. He would need to stay healthy, which he has had some trouble with the last two seasons. But if he was really a 129 OPS+ hitter or better as he has shown the ability in some seasons, that would look fine in a 3B/1B career with some durability and longevity to it. The WS MVP won't hurt him in that regard.
   15. Booey Posted: November 03, 2012 at 05:30 PM (#4292004)
I don't see much of a HOF chance for Panda, but it does seem likely that at least one of the Posey/Freak/Cain trio will make it. If not though, would the Giants be the first team to win two titles without any HOFers? Few teams have even won 1 title without a HOFer. In the last 30 years:

2008 Phillies - Anyone who looks likely? Howard and Utley dropped off too quickly, and Rollins MVP the previous season was well beyond his true level of ability. They didn't get Pedro until 2009 and Halladay until 2010. Hamels has a shot, I suppose.

2002 Angels - Any shot for anyone? Vlad didn't arrive until 2 years later.

1997 Marlins - Only make the list cuz of steroid backlash. Brown has already been snubbed and Sheffield likely will be.

1988 Dodgers - Was Sutton still on this team when they won the WS or did he retire already? I know he played for them early in the season. If the former, strike them from the list.

1984 Tigers - Surprisingly no one, though Trammell and Whittaker are obvious snubs and Evans has a good argument too. Unfortunately, Morris is the one most likely to make it.

1981 Dodgers - Too bad Fernando-mania didn't last...



Probably a few more in the previous 8 decades that I'm too lazy to look up...
   16. cardsfanboy Posted: November 03, 2012 at 05:39 PM (#4292011)
Probably a few more in the previous 8 decades that I'm too lazy to look up...


I would think that is probably not true, I mean sure there will be a handful of teams of course, but I would think that the more teams in the playoffs, mean lower quality teams eventually making it to through the world series.
   17. Walt Davis Posted: November 03, 2012 at 07:38 PM (#4292084)
But if he was really a 129 OPS+ hitter or better as he has shown the ability in some seasons, that would look fine in a 3B/1B career with some durability and longevity to it.

That's a really, really long career. That's Tony Perez long. Unless perhaps he does stay at 3B the entire time but even then I'd think he has to make it to 10,000 PA.

HoFers and not roughly in that OPS+ range, integration era:

McGriff 134: >10,000 PA, 493 HR, >1500 RBI, not gonna make it by vote
Kaline 134: >11,500 PA, >3000 hits
B Williams 133: >10,500 PA, 2700 hits, >400 HR, >1400 RBI ... probably doesn't make it today
Cepeda 133: >8500 PA, no real milestones, 1 MVP, VC selection
Palmeiro 132: >12,000 PA, woulda made it
Gwynn, Carew, Yaz, Winfleid, Clemente, Murray: 10-13,000 PA, all >3000 hits, 3 >450 HR, batting titles, etc.
Rice: the less said the better
Henderson: could there be a worse comp to Panda? :-)
Mattingly, Raines, Murphy: if no Murphy (9000 PA, 2 MVPs) then no Panda at 9000 PA
Molitor, Perez and Banks

Cepeda and Rice are the most promising and if Panda ever wins an MVP or wins 5 rings with 12 WS HR or something, he might squeak in the way they did. Perez would be the best super-long career comp.

Panda's already 25 and has just 2300 PA. 7700 PA without decline in 15 years is certainly doable but ...

I get 34 players, integration era, with at least 2000 PA through age 25 and an OPS+ between 125 and 135. By WAR, Sandoval is 27th on that list. Del Ennis and Juan Gone are probably the most similar. He's also in a group with Jimmy Wynn, Rick Monday, Kent Hrbek. Among 3B, he's behind Hebner and Horner. (And Rolen and Jim Ray Hart and Brett ... and Chipper and Mathews and Schmidt and Santo...)

HoFers on this list: well, after I add an upper limit of 3000 PA, there are none although Mauer might well make it. The best by WAR are Bobby Bonds, Hart, Nomar, J Clark, Rolen. Among active players, he's also behind McCutchen on this list. I note he also has only 76 HR which is 16th on this list of 20. Of the 14 HoF-eligible guys on the list, I think only 3 even made the 5% cut in their first year.

I stand corrected, Chipper had only a 122 OPS+ through age 25 and less than 2000 PA. Solid player but that guy's got no chance at the HoF. :-)

Although he shows up on zero comp lists, Madlock seems a fair comp to Panda. Panda probably won't ever hit for that kind of average but Madlock's career 305/365/442 in this day and age probably translates to something pretty similar to Panda's 303/353/490 line. And both pack a few too many pounds around the middle. I look forward to Sandoval's season at 2B.

Whoa, Panda was +15 defensively in 2011? Methinks 'tis not his true talent!





   18. bjhanke Posted: November 03, 2012 at 08:19 PM (#4292124)
The 1939-40 Reds won a pennant and a World's Championship with only Ernie Lombardi in the Hall so far. Bucky Walters is their best bet for another. What they had, essentially, was four infielders all of "inner circle of Hall of Very Good" players all having their career peaks. Frank McCormick is the most obvious of these, but the other infielders have just about as much value as Frank. - Brock Hanke
   19. Dag Nabbit is part of the zombie horde Posted: November 03, 2012 at 08:28 PM (#4292132)
Probably a few more in the previous 8 decades that I'm too lazy to look up...

I would think that is probably not true,


It just plain ain't true. Every world champ from 1903-80 has at least one member in the Hall of Fame.

If you throw in managers, the 1981, 1984, and 1988 teams have someone in, too. And the 1997 and 2002 squads could very well end up with one also.
   20. bookbook Posted: November 03, 2012 at 08:30 PM (#4292135)
Well, expanded playoffs make it more likely that merely above average teams win the title. At the same time, the percentage of players making the hOF is plummeting. The Tigers dynasty didn't have Trammell and Whitaker as HOFs to lead them, after all.
   21. Booey Posted: November 03, 2012 at 10:45 PM (#4292263)
I would think that is probably not true, I mean sure there will be a handful of teams of course, but I would think that the more teams in the playoffs, mean lower quality teams eventually making it to through the world series.


Well that, plus the VC has had decades to pick through those players and pad the numbers of several of those teams. Are there any WS winners without any HoM players?

Edit: other than the obvious recent ones, of course
   22. zachtoma Posted: November 04, 2012 at 12:54 AM (#4292413)
I'm not counting out Lincecum as a HoFer, he clearly has the talent and I really believe he will bounce back from this season. His career up to age 27 looks like a Hall of Famer's to me.
   23. Walt Davis Posted: November 04, 2012 at 01:29 AM (#4292427)
I'm not counting out Lincecum as a HoFer, he clearly has the talent and I really believe he will bounce back from this season. His career up to age 27 looks like a Hall of Famer's to me.

Me neither but he's got an unimpressive comp list. If he pitches another 2700 innings like Gibson did, I like his chances. :-) I think it's quite hard to judge young SPs at the moment. The HoF comps all have so many more IP and wins and it's not clear that somebody like Lincecum will even get the opportunity to match those numbers. How far will voters lower their standards? Maddux, Clemens, Johnson, Pedro, Glavine mean they won't necessarily have to lower them anytime soon.

I'm guessing Schilling will be the approximate in/out line for recent starters -- 3200 IP, 127 ERA+, 3000 K, excellent postseason with some good storylines. Lincecum has two CYAs which will help with the storyline but, alas, if that ends up being the only highlights on his resume, that looks a bit like a disappointment -- 2 CYAs at a young age, we thought he'd be an all-time great ...

Lincecum needs 2000 IP, 140 wins and 1700 K to match Schilling. If he bounces back to 2010-11 levels, he's got a reasonable chance at that.

Halladay is an interesting case right now. 134 ERA+ but only 2700 IP, 199 wins, only 2000 K. No reason to think he'll fall off a cliff to the extent that he doesn't make it to 3000 innings and 220-ish wins but that guy's still short of 3000 K. I'm reasonably confident that the two CYA and other CYA finishes will be enough to put him over the line but, compared to historical HoF comps, he's more Drysdale than slam dunk.

Hmmm ... something funny going on, Halladay's page only has comps through age 31 and it's presented as if he retired -- glitch.
   24. Ebessan Posted: November 04, 2012 at 02:19 AM (#4292454)
2008 Phillies - Anyone who looks likely? ...Utley dropped off too quickly

Position players with more 7 WAR seasons than Utley (at least six) since 1940: Aaron, Boggs, Bonds, Mathews, Mays, Musial, Pujols, Rodriguez, Schmidt, and Williams. The other players with five are Brett, Clemente, Mantle, Morgan, and Frank Robinson. Even if you want to call Chase a beneficiary of being a BIS SuperGod, those are fifteen iconic no-doubt HoF players. As a Phillies fan, that almost everyone seems to agree that his HoF goose is cooked is unbearably depressing.
   25. Kiko Sakata Posted: November 04, 2012 at 02:38 AM (#4292463)
Are there any WS winners without any HoM players?


I think the aforementioned 39-40 Reds, unless Walters made it recently.
   26. Baldrick Posted: November 04, 2012 at 04:12 AM (#4292474)
Position players with more 7 WAR seasons than Utley (at least six)

??? Utley had five consecutive years above 7 WAR, according to BB-Ref. Not coincidentally, those are the only five years of his career he cleared 115 games.

I know he's considered a good defender, but his WAR is pumped up by some crazy good fielding numbers. Is/was he really that good?
   27. Matt Welch Posted: November 04, 2012 at 10:35 AM (#4292520)
Probably the only 2002 Angels who ever really had a shot were Troy Glaus and K-Rod, and they both fizzled. I assume the '84 Tigers will eventually be represented; they really are the analogue for the '70s Dodgers when it comes to massive Hall of Very Good representation (down to having their version of Don Sutton likely being the first to make the Hall). '97 Marlins are super-HoVGy as well....

Trying to think if there's ever been a team like the recent Phils in terms of having a core of totally legitimate star power that played at HoF levels during their primes but never built HoF careers....
   28. BDC Posted: November 04, 2012 at 11:11 AM (#4292534)
Lincecum, despite his two-CYA peak, just has an awful lot of comps, as Walt notes, meaning that players with similar career starts abound, and he is surprisingly nothing special (though on the very good side of "nothing special," obviously). Here's a list very tightly centered on him in terms of career starts and ERA+, ranked by Wins:

Player               W  GS ERAFrom   To   Age     IP
Lon Warneke        118 200  123 1930 1937 21
-28 1662.0
Eddie Rommel       118 196  123 1920 1926 22
-28 1808.2
Lefty Leifield     116 200  118 1905 1912 21
-28 1648.2
Justin Verlander   107 199  124 2005 2011 22
-28 1315.1
Claude Hendrix     105 182  119 1911 1917 22
-28 1728.1
Andy Pettitte      100 190  117 1995 2000 23
-28 1249.0
Jeff Tesreau        98 178  120 1912 1916 24
-28 1421.2
Andy Messersmith    93 195  123 1968 1974 22
-28 1514.1
Jack McDowell       91 191  117 1987 1994 21
-28 1343.2
Steve Barber        91 196  118 1960 1966 22
-28 1340.0
Josh Beckett        89 193  116 2001 2008 21
-28 1188.2
Jon Lester          85 187  119 2006 2012 22
-28 1163.0
Ned Garver          85 197  120 1948 1954 22
-28 1530.0
Tim Lincecum        79 188  120 2007 2012 23
-28 1214.0
Dan Haren           79 187  122 2003 2009 22
-28 1226.2
John Lackey         79 182  116 2002 2007 23
-28 1161.1
Steve Rogers        73 191  119 1973 1978 23
-28 1390.0
Ben McDonald        70 177  115 1989 1996 21
-28 1158.1 




Stars all, through that age. Actually, the further back you go, the less that number of starts is remarkable, but even Lefty Leifield, no big star, was a key pitcher on some very good Pirates teams in the 1900s.

But longevity is such a roll of the dice, with pitchers, that the list ends up containing no HOFers. Andy Pettitte has a shot, and is still adding to it, but his longevity is extreme, and one would be wary of extrapolating Lincecum to such a career length.

I like to use Starts as a benchmark for comparison in that it allows for cross-era comparison better. But of course it also produces a pretty wide range of IP totals over a small range of Starts, and Lincecum, as Walt notes, is on the low end of the IP continuum here. But I suspect that future HOF voters will look more at Starts and less at IP to assess career length, because the role of starters has simply changed so much. The alternative is never to elect anyone to the Hall because nobody pitches as much as Eddie Rommel or Lon Warneke used to.
   29. Booey Posted: November 04, 2012 at 12:52 PM (#4292594)
How far will voters lower their standards? Maddux, Clemens, Johnson, Pedro, Glavine mean they won't necessarily have to lower them anytime soon.

I'm guessing Schilling will be the approximate in/out line for recent starters


I think Smoltz will also make it fairly easily, though that's with the extra credit he'll get as a starter/closer combo like Eck. I suspect Mussina might also get elected via the Blyleven and Jack Morris (sigh) route.

If not for the steroid admissions, I think Pettitte would have been selected eventually too as this generations version of Morris (a good pitcher that people want to believe is a great pitcher cuz of their postseason reputation).
   30. Baldrick Posted: November 04, 2012 at 02:20 PM (#4292637)
Lincecum, despite his two-CYA peak, just has an awful lot of comps, as Walt notes, meaning that players with similar career starts abound, and he is surprisingly nothing special (though on the very good side of "nothing special," obviously). Here's a list very tightly centered on him in terms of career starts and ERA+, ranked by Wins:

I'm not saying 2012 didn't happen, or shouldn't count, but it's at least worth pointing out that going INTO this year, he had a career ERA+ of 137. I think when people talk about his HOF case, they imagine him returning to something like that.
   31. BDC Posted: November 04, 2012 at 04:56 PM (#4292740)
That's a good point, Baldrick. Many of the comps in my list were more consistent than Lincecum has been (and therefore not as good at their best). There are a few other cases like Lincecum's. Verlander had an off-year in 2008. Steve Barber was weak in 1964. Warneke got beaten up in 1937, and we have all lived through the on-and-off careers of some of the other recent stars. Verlander would seem the closest comp, as a definite CYA pitcher at his best, and he's also one of the recent comps with the best chance at the HOF.
   32. OCF Posted: November 04, 2012 at 05:42 PM (#4292780)
Are there any WS winners without any HoM players?

I think the aforementioned 39-40 Reds, unless Walters made it recently.


Walters was 15th on the 2012 HoM ballot results, so he hasn't made it. (And his standing will now decline for a while as a surge of candidates hits the top of the ballot.) Lombardi was abut 60th.
   33. zenbitz Posted: November 04, 2012 at 09:10 PM (#4292887)
Sandoval has a pretty high variance which i think is good for his HOF chances. He is really an amazing athelete.. him having a few .330/.400/.550 years is not out of the question, and he's a solid 3B.

He will have to stay in shape though.
   34. Booey Posted: November 05, 2012 at 12:41 PM (#4293289)
Are there any WS winners without any HoM players?

I think the aforementioned 39-40 Reds, unless Walters made it recently.


Do the '91 Twins have anyone? Puckett didn't make the HoM, right?
   35. Steve Treder Posted: November 05, 2012 at 01:06 PM (#4293322)
He will have to stay in shape though.

That's the issue in its entirety. He's been unable to keep his weight under control on a sustained basis, and unless he manages to start doing so, he'll almost certainly keep getting hurt.
   36. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: November 05, 2012 at 01:53 PM (#4293402)
I know he's considered a good defender, but his WAR is pumped up by some crazy good fielding numbers. Is/was he really that good?

To my eye, he was always well positioned, quick, smart, very good to his left, steady glove with just enough arm to be a high quality DP tandem with Rollins. He'd have an occasional case of the yips for 5 games and get it straightened out. How all that relates to WAR numbers, I can't venture a guess.

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