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Wednesday, December 25, 2013

The 2013 HOF Ballot Collecting Gizmo!

The 2014 HOF Ballot Collecting Gizmo!

Final: Jan.9 - 11:30 ~ 209* Full Ballots ~ (36.7%* of vote ~ based on last year) (*new ballot/pct. record!)

99.5 - Maddux
95.7 - Glavine
89.0 - F. Thomas
79.4 - Biggio
———————————
67.9 - Piazza
61.7 - Jack (The Jack) Morris
56.5 - Bagwell
54.5 - Raines
42.1 - Bonds
40.7 - Clemens
36.8 - Schilling
26.8 - Mussina
25.4 - E. Martinez
24.4 - L. Smith
22.0 - Trammell
15.8 - Kent
12.0 - McGriff
10.5 - McGwire
  8.1 - L. Walker
  7.2 - S. Sosa
  5.7 - R. Palmeiro
———————————
4.8 - Mattingly
0.5 - P. Rose (Write-In)

Thanks to Butch, Ilychs Morales, leokitty & Barnald for their help.

As usual…send them in if you come across any ballots!

Repoz Posted: December 25, 2013 at 03:56 PM | 2002 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: history, hof

Reader Comments and Retorts

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Page 17 of 21 pages ‹ First  < 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 > 
   1601. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: January 08, 2014 at 11:45 AM (#4633212)
How one can group Glavine with Pedro rather than the other three is mind numbing. I'm sure it's the Maddux association and the 305 career wins, and if those are the things that one uses to evaluate players careers....so be it.


I wouldn't necessary put Glavine in the tier with Pedro. I'd put him in a tier between the top guys and the "inner ring suburbs" guys.

Tier 1: Maddux, Clemens
Tier 2: Petey, RJ
Tier 3: Glavine, Mussina
Tier 4: Schilling, Brown, Smoltz
Tier 5: Cone, Saberhage, Hershiser, Appier

"Stat nerds" can discount 305 wins all they want. They can run down a ground ball pitcher because he used his infield defense if they like. They can claim it was luck and umpire's bad calls or whatever they want to run with this week. At the end of the day, Tom Glavine is a no doubt, lock-down, not-quite-demi-god but definitely inner circle HOF pitcher. To argue otherwise on JAWS or whatever is to miss the forest for the trees.
   1602. Mickey Henry Mays Posted: January 08, 2014 at 11:47 AM (#4633216)

It's okay, I think it fixes itself on the flip, right? So just post 5 more times (make them good, though!).


Good thing, sorry guys I'll be more careful.
   1603. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 08, 2014 at 11:50 AM (#4633217)
One of the new pro-Morris arguments is that all of his innings (and, yes, there were a lot) were pitched while "logging ace-duty", as opposed to being a back-end 4th/5th starter (I guess?).

Problem is, he pitched like a back-end guy.


I think that's a bit unfair. Through his age 32 season, the Morris had a 3.55 ERA, good for a 115 ERA+. I doubt too many "back end" guys were putting up numbers like that. He compares through age 32 with guys like Chuck Finley, Tommy John, Robin Roberts, and Bartolo Colon.

But Morris was done being a good pitcher after that. Even his 21 win season at age 37, he was league average, and he mixed in some awful ERA seasons in 1989 and 1993-94. After his age 32 season, his ERA was 4.48, or a 92 ERA+. He was definitely a back-end guy then.
   1604. arrabin56 Posted: January 08, 2014 at 11:55 AM (#4633222)
Tier 1: Maddux, Clemens
Tier 2: Petey, RJ
Tier 3: Glavine, Mussina
Tier 4: Schilling, Brown, Smoltz
Tier 5: Cone, Saberhage, Hershiser, Appier


This makes me wonder what Smoltz would do if he were on the ballot this year. Besides taking away that terrible final season of stats, would Maddux bump him up to 1st timer like he may be helping Glavine clear 95%? Or would he and Glavine cancel eachother out in this means and both be in the 60-80% range?
   1605. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 08, 2014 at 11:59 AM (#4633228)
Still, if that's the best case for Morris, ugh. Through age 32 should be your peak.

Jack Morris:
Bert Blyleven: 176-160 3.01 ERA 3177 IP 125 ERA+
David Cone 129-78 3.17 ERA 1922 IP 125 ERA+
Curt Schilling 99-83 3.38 ERA 1691 IP 123 ERA+
Kevin Brown 121-92 3.42 ERA 1291 IP 121 ERA+
Andy Pettitte 155-82 3.94 ERA 1875 IP 117 ERA+

Jack Morris 162-105 3.55 ERA 2387 IP 115 ERA+
Larry French 177-153 3.47 ERA 2850 IP 115 ERA+
Mark Buerhle 161-119 3.83 ERA 2476 IP 115 ERA+

Morris was Mark Buerhle, then got worse. LOL.
   1606. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: January 08, 2014 at 12:00 PM (#4633229)
MHM - most of us have inadvertently hit code a time or two, it's cool.
What I meant before: if you're able to edit your post, you can see the code used to format your text as code or a quote or whatever. So, if you do that, and you see left bracket, the word code, right bracket ... your text ... left bracket, forward slash, the word code, right bracket --> replace the word code with the word blockquote or the word quote. Anyway, no matter now.
   1607. SouthSideRyan Posted: January 08, 2014 at 12:05 PM (#4633233)
I don't agree with the "Well Sosa(or whoever) isn't getting in because they're polling X so let's push him off the ballot" line of reasoning.

Blyleven was at 14.1% in his 2nd year on the ballot and went in on ballot 14 at 79.7%
Sutter was at 24.3% in his 6th year on the ballot and went in on ballot 13 at 76.9%

Blyleven needed an active campaign to get people to notice how good he was. Sutter needed voters to do a 180 on closers.

Sosa has 2 things which are suppressing his vote totals at the moment: PED hysteria and an overloaded ballot. With any luck, 4 guys will go in this year, and a new day will have dawned where voters fill their ballots helping to prevent backlogs.

Regarding PEDs, one would think if Bonds or Clemens can get in at some point during Sosa's stay on the ballot it will either change some minds(especially considering the lack of evidence against him) or turn off some voters to the point where they stop voting altogether.

Is it likely? Certainly not, but I'd rather Sosa stick around for that 1% chance of making a Blyleven or Sutter climb rather than get Whitakered off the ballot and not be heard from for 18 years.
   1608. The District Attorney Posted: January 08, 2014 at 12:07 PM (#4633239)
Harold Reynolds to Ken Rosenthal just now: "You're all over that Think Factory. Don't like that."
   1609. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 08, 2014 at 12:10 PM (#4633244)
Harold Reynolds to Ken Rosenthal just now: "You're all over that Think Factory. Don't like that."

No hugs for us, Harold?
   1610. Mickey Henry Mays Posted: January 08, 2014 at 12:10 PM (#4633245)
MHM - most of us have inadvertently hit code a time or two, it's cool.
What I meant before: if you're able to edit your post, you can see the code used to format your text as code or a quote or whatever. So, if you do that, and you see left bracket, the word code, right bracket ... your text ... left bracket, forward slash, the word code, right bracket --> replace the word code with the word blockquote or the word quote. Anyway, no matter now.


OK, I see. I had to physically type in "quote" in place of "code". Makes sense, unfortunately when I try it, the save button isn't registering. But as you say, no matter now.
   1611. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: January 08, 2014 at 12:11 PM (#4633247)
Harold Reynolds to Ken Rosenthal just now: "You're all over that Think Factory. Don't like that."

As the great western philosopher Yosemite Sam said, "All right, all right, don't rush me! I'm a-thinking! And my head hurts."
   1612. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: January 08, 2014 at 12:13 PM (#4633249)
OK, I see. I had to physically type in "quote" in place of "code". Makes sense, unfortunately when I try it, the save button isn't registering. But as you say, no matter now.


You've got a 15-minute window where you can make changes, even though the edit button will stay there for all eternity (presumably).

   1613. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: January 08, 2014 at 12:32 PM (#4633259)
T-minus 2.5 hours.
   1614. Mickey Henry Mays Posted: January 08, 2014 at 12:36 PM (#4633261)

You've got a 15-minute window where you can make changes, even though the edit button will stay there for all eternity (presumably).


Learned another thing. I could never figure that one out because it's happened a few times and I just wrote it off to happenstance.
   1615. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: January 08, 2014 at 12:39 PM (#4633269)
Harold Reynolds to Ken Rosenthal just now: "You're all over that Think Factory. Don't like that."


And this is the guy replacing McCarver? Awesome.
   1616. Joey B. has reignited his October #Natitude Posted: January 08, 2014 at 12:41 PM (#4633272)
The non-Snyder controlled D.C. talk radio guys on the air now actually mentioned the site by name and the Gizmo (indirectly) about twenty minutes ago. A lot of you will be happy to know that they're firmly in the pro-steroids contingent.
   1617. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: January 08, 2014 at 12:45 PM (#4633277)
The AP story on the likely inductees mentioned the Giz. It appears that the winter of 2013-14 is to the Giz what the winter of 1992-93 was to the roids.

   1618. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: January 08, 2014 at 12:59 PM (#4633293)
The non-Snyder controlled D.C. talk radio guys on the air now actually mentioned the site by name and the Gizmo (indirectly) about twenty minutes ago. A lot of you will be happy to know that they're firmly in the pro-steroids contingent.


You wonder how many editors/producers have said, "Fine, you can mention the website, but we're not referring to something called the 'Gizmo.'"

   1619. Bourbon Samurai Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:01 PM (#4633298)
Hall of fame announcement show live chat!
   1620. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:02 PM (#4633299)
Harold Reynolds to Ken Rosenthal just now: "You're all over that Think Factory. Don't like that."


Adding, "Its a trap!"
   1621. Bourbon Samurai Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:06 PM (#4633305)
Ooh, a defensive highlight for Bagwell
   1622. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:06 PM (#4633307)
Harold Reynolds to Ken Rosenthal just now: "You're all over that Think Factory. Don't like that."


Adding, "Its a trap!"

and hopefully Rosenthal replied "are you the biggest idiot ever?"
   1623. cardsfanboy Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:08 PM (#4633309)
First time I have been in a hotel in a long time, that had MLB network. Perfect timing.
   1624. Bourbon Samurai Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:09 PM (#4633310)
BBTF on the mlb network show!
   1625. Blastin Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:10 PM (#4633312)
Yesterday too.
   1626. Bourbon Samurai Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:12 PM (#4633315)
Ooh, a writer taking responsibility for not covering steroids in the 90's
   1627. Bourbon Samurai Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:12 PM (#4633316)
Rosenthal calls for eliminating the 5% rule
   1628. DL from MN Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:13 PM (#4633317)
I can't imagine why Harold Reynolds wouldn't like people here.
   1629. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:13 PM (#4633319)
Morris has actually crept up over three points in the last day or so. On my +10.2 Giz to Final projection, he's going to come in at 71.9%, which looks and sounds a lot better than 68 or 69.
   1630. DL from MN Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:13 PM (#4633320)
Biggio just needs to go from 66% to 73% among the non-Gizmo ballots.
   1631. cardsfanboy Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:14 PM (#4633322)
Jon Heyman with the quote of the day... "in some ways we did this to ourselves, by not doing a good job of covering steroids in the 90's"....

They are debating the 10 man per ballot rule, and worried about how it's going affect things in the future as someone might vote for 30 names.... and I don't see a problem with that. There are 550+ voters, a few guys going with big ballots in a few years isn't going to affect anything other than help keep a few guys from dropping off the ballot, it's not going to affect any of the eventual winners. Or make a travesty of anything.

Again, the deadspin vote is less of a travesty than the one vote for Morris only.
   1632. Joey B. has reignited his October #Natitude Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:16 PM (#4633325)
You wonder how many editors/producers have said, "Fine, you can mention the website, but we're not referring to something called the 'Gizmo.'"

Probably quite a few times!
   1633. Mickey Henry Mays Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:17 PM (#4633328)
I can't imagine why Harold Reynolds wouldn't like people here.


Probably because his career doesn't look as good when run through the filter, especially his baserunning.
   1634. Srul Itza Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:18 PM (#4633329)
Probably because he gets slagged on a regular basis.
   1635. John Northey Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:19 PM (#4633330)
I guess the embarrassment of 30 names would be due to a batch of non-HOF quality guys getting votes and how people would go 'puleese'. For example, Jim Deshaies getting a vote in 2001 despite a sub-500 record, 91 ERA+, and a black ink of 1. I have no idea why he was on the ballot beyond the 'well, he played 10 seasons' idea. Still, outside of die-hards (like those of us here) and his family who noticed?
   1636. Bourbon Samurai Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:20 PM (#4633332)
They showed a walk on Frank Thomas' highlight reel! Truly Billy Beane should never have written that book
   1637. Bourbon Samurai Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:22 PM (#4633334)
Huh, I did not remember Jeff Kent as a Dodger
   1638. John DiFool2 Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:23 PM (#4633338)
I would have liked to see Walker, Sosa, Palmeiro and Mattingly all fall off, simply because they aren't going to get in and the backlog would be better off without them.


I think Palmiero and Sosa need to stay on, because a lot can change in 15 years. To have a 3000 hit/500 HR guy and a 600 HR guy no longer even have a chance to undergo a reevaluation a la Bert would be absolutely shameful (even tho yes their hills will be even steeper than his was). For all we know 10 ballots from now they might be the two best remaining candidates (as there doesn't seem to be a huge number of soon-to-be-retiring slam dunks coming up). If Piazza starts an avalanche, in 2025 we might have him, Bags, Rocket, Barry, and maybe even Manny in there. They'll start to look a lot more appealing, esp. if we don't have many 500/600/3000 guys retiring (as I said).
   1639. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:23 PM (#4633339)
If Morris gets elected somehow, will you guys promise to lose your ####### minds? I'm hoping for a thread to rival the pooping etiquette, smashed groin, Mets immolation and Nomar threads. Thanks in advance!
   1640. Delorians Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:27 PM (#4633346)
Re:1635, not sure if you picked Deshaies at random, but in the weeks preceeding that year's election, he did actually launch a tongue in cheek 'one man, one vote' campaign to get that vote.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/mel_antonen/01/05/one.vote.hall.of.fame/
   1641. cardsfanboy Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:28 PM (#4633349)
If Morris gets elected somehow, will you guys promise to lose your ####### minds?


I'll perform a lobotomy on myself using a spoon, so that my brain power would meet the average bbwaa writer.

I love Reynolds and Costa bagging on the voting percentage and guys not getting 100%.
   1642. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:28 PM (#4633350)
I had no problem with the Deshaies vote. In the context of that year's voting it was harmless and a little bit of fun.
   1643. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:32 PM (#4633353)
At the end of the day, Tom Glavine is a no doubt, lock-down, not-quite-demi-god but definitely inner circle HOF pitcher. To argue otherwise on JAWS or whatever is to miss the forest for the trees.

The way "Inner Circle" is usually used , Glavine's not even close. He's a definite HoFer, but he's clearly in the Sutton/Perry/Niekro wing, not the Big Train/Grove/Seaver/Maddux wing.
   1644. Textbook Editor Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:33 PM (#4633354)
I had no problem with the Deshaies vote. In the context of that year's voting it was harmless and a little bit of fun.


Me either. Without knowing the story of all the bizarre votes over the years, it is possible that some writers were moved to "waste" a vote now and then simply to try to keep guys on the ballot/get them to the 5% range if they disagreed (in principle) with the 5% rule. Such a strategy works if there's only 3-5 Hall-worthy candidates each year (giving you 5-7 slots to fill with folks you want to make sure get over the 5% rule and stay on the ballot so they're considered more seriously at a later date).



   1645. John Northey Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:36 PM (#4633356)
I'd agree that the Deshaies vote was harmless. I remember his campaign for a vote and was glad he got it, but I'd bet strongly that other writers were annoyed and felt like 'what is this guy doing getting a vote'. But if a guy is put on the ballot then someone must have felt he was worth thinking about for the HOF so a vote is perfectly fine imo. I don't see any situation where a guy like Deshaies gets enough votes to get in or even to stick for a second ballot.
   1646. cardsfanboy Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:37 PM (#4633360)
Me either. Without knowing the story of all the bizarre votes over the years, it is possible that some writers were moved to "waste" a vote now and then simply to try to keep guys on the ballot/get them to the 5% range if they disagreed (in principle) with the 5% rule. Such a strategy works if there's only 3-5 Hall-worthy candidates each year (giving you 5-7 slots to fill with folks you want to make sure get over the 5% rule and stay on the ballot so they're considered more seriously at a later date).


Often times the writers would give a fan favorite/local favorite a vote as a tip of the cap to a player who is not going to make the hall or even the 5%. That tendency has dropped over the more recent years as the internet has led to a backlash against "unjustified" votes.
   1647. tfbg9 Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:38 PM (#4633362)
The way "Inner Circle" is usually used , Glavine's not even close.


Yep. I'd go with "Middle Ring" HOF'er.
   1648. Bourbon Samurai Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:39 PM (#4633364)
Reynolds supports Raines, which is nice I guess.Will any of these players say, "No, that guy should not be a HOF?"
   1649. Booey Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:39 PM (#4633366)
They are debating the 10 man per ballot rule, and worried about how it's going affect things in the future as someone might vote for 30 names....


They don't even need to remove the ballot cap altogether. Just up it to 20. Or even 15 would make a big difference.
   1650. John Northey Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:41 PM (#4633367)
Hrm... there is the stupid statement again. They mentioned again that Morris started game 1 of every postseason he was on the roster. But in 1993 he didn't get to pitch _at all_ in the playoffs and not because he was hurt but because he sucked. In 1992 he was 0-3 in 4 starts so he hardly helped. 1987 he lost his only postseason start. Yeah, 1984 and 1991 he was great (7-0 8 starts 14 ER in 61 1/3 IP 2.05 ERA) and in 1991 his club wouldn't have won otherwise but hardly the best ever or good enough to pull up his career to HOF level imo.
   1651. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:43 PM (#4633371)
They don't even need to remove the ballot cap altogether. Just up it to 20.


That's my feeling. I can't imagine ever needing more than 20, and I'm not sure unlimited would lead to more votes than a higher cap.

   1652. Bourbon Samurai Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:46 PM (#4633375)
That's a good ballot, Gammons
   1653. fra paolo Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:47 PM (#4633378)
Rosenthal calls for eliminating the 5% rule

This would be a mistake, as it would likely lead to fewer candidates being elected, as votes became less concentrated among the candidates, with low-hopers hanging around the bottom of the ballot for a decade or so.

I would keep the five-per-cent rule, but lift the fifteen-year limit on a candidacy, and have perpetual eligibility so long as a player could keep getting five per cent of the votes. This would also allow the abolition of the Veteran's Committee, which has done a worse job than the BBWAA in sustaining HoF standards.
   1654. cardsfanboy Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:48 PM (#4633380)
That's my feeling. I can't imagine ever needing more than 20, and I'm not sure unlimitied would lead to more votes than a higher cap.


I don't think unlimited would make any noticeable difference than upping it to 20. If they make it unlimited, I really doubt anyone would ever go over 17 anyway, (except as a "look at me" ballot)
   1655. Esmailyn Gonzalez Sr. Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:48 PM (#4633381)
The way "Inner Circle" is usually used , Glavine's not even close.

Yep. I'd go with "Middle Ring" HOF'er.

A Canadian might say he has a bite of the 4 foot...
   1656. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:50 PM (#4633382)
Rosenthal calls for eliminating the 5% rule



This would be a mistake, as it would likely lead to fewer candidates being elected, as votes became less concentrated among the candidates, with low-hopers hanging around the bottom of the ballot for a decade or so.


Yeah, we've batted this one back and forth. I think you need some kind of a floor. I think a better solution is a stepped-approach. 2 percent after Year 1, 4 after Year 2, 6 after Year 3, something like that. A system that requires not just some baseline of support, but actual progress.
   1657. Bourbon Samurai Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:50 PM (#4633383)
When are they going to make this ####### announcement?
   1658. Jim (jimmuscomp) Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:50 PM (#4633384)
pooping etiquette


I thought of this thread the other day while on the toilet. I laughed out loud.
   1659. cardsfanboy Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:51 PM (#4633385)
I would keep the five-per-cent rule, but lift the fifteen-year limit on a candidacy, and have perpetual eligibility so long as a player could keep getting five per cent of the votes. This would also allow the abolition of the Veteran's Committee, which has done a worse job than the BBWAA in sustaining HoF standards.


That is a horrible idea. 15 years is enough time. I'm fine with eliminating the 5% rule, but I think the better answer is to expand the ballot. I think that we can eliminate the 5% rule for the first ballot only I would be fine with.

Edit: or Sosh idea about a steeped ballot...drawback is that I think the crowded ballot like this year negates the advantage of a system like that.
   1660. dlf Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:53 PM (#4633389)
pooping etiquette


Was that a distinct thread separate from the wiping style thread or was it all one big dump.

Sorry.
   1661. Rusty Priske Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:55 PM (#4633390)
You know, I founded the VERSeOttawa Hall of Honour (which is for poetry in my city and nothing to do with baseball), and it made me realize how odd it is the we (and I am definitely including myself in here) argue AGAINST people being honoured. That's not really the way honouring people is meant to work.


Oh well... JUST SAY NO TO JACK!
   1662. John Northey Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:55 PM (#4633391)
I'd agree with that - keep 15 year rule, make the first year a 1 vote minimum then shift to 5% after that. Maybe after 10 years make it 10% just to clean off doomed accounts.
   1663. Bourbon Samurai Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:55 PM (#4633392)
That is a horrible idea. 15 years is enough time. I'm fine with eliminating the 5% rule, but I think the better answer is to expand the ballot. I think that we can eliminate the 5% rule for the first ballot only I would be fine with.


Yeah, I don't like the perpetual ballot idea, but I would be in favor of a grace period- maybe 3 or 4 years.
   1664. John Northey Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:58 PM (#4633395)
Oy am I sick of 'bucks on the pond' and that Klondike ad. Prefer real ads.

Edit: Sorry, not Klondike but EWC ad - thought it was Klondike due to the ads in the background.
   1665. Rusty Priske Posted: January 08, 2014 at 02:00 PM (#4633398)
Eligibility - 1 year. Vote for people whose performance deserves it. Don't play around with garbage like "who deserves to go in in the first year". Nonsense.
   1666. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: January 08, 2014 at 02:03 PM (#4633401)

Edit: or Sosh idea about a steeped ballot...drawback is that I think the crowded ballot like this year negates the advantage of a system like that.


If it accompanies an increase in the ballot limit, it should limit that problem, if not eliminate it altogether.
   1667. Rob_Wood Posted: January 08, 2014 at 02:04 PM (#4633402)
Wow, all the sportswriters are coming off very well (especially Rosenthal and Gammons). The only guy who looks like he is not up to the task is Harold Reynolds.
   1668. Bourbon Samurai Posted: January 08, 2014 at 02:10 PM (#4633407)
Interesting perspective about steroids from Smoltz. Smart guy.
   1669. AJMcCringleberry Posted: January 08, 2014 at 02:13 PM (#4633411)
Costas is a buffoon.
   1670. Guts Posted: January 08, 2014 at 02:14 PM (#4633412)
Costas is going nuts. Bonds is personally offending him by existing!
   1671. cardsfanboy Posted: January 08, 2014 at 02:14 PM (#4633414)
If it accompanies an increase in the ballot limit, it should limit that problem, if not eliminate it altogether.


Agree. I think that increasing the ballot limit is the single most powerful way to make a change. I don't think it's going to make much of a difference on the guys who are going to get in eventually, and getting current support, but I think it will prevent players from dropping off the ballot. The guys who would vote for 10+ guys in non-crowded years, are the guys who are going to vote for Ted Simmons, Whitaker or Brown, and you don't need many voters to keep a guy on the ballot.

Considering that the average names on a ballot is usually around 6, that absolutely means that there are a few people every year voting for 10 guys. Those are the guys who will prevent deserving candidates from dropping off.
   1672. cardsfanboy Posted: January 08, 2014 at 02:15 PM (#4633417)
Costas is going nuts. Bonds is personally offending him by existing!


I was going to say something similar, the vein on his neck was about to explode. When someone said that Reynolds was the only one coming off bad... Costas came off like a world class as-hat.
   1673. Repoz Posted: January 08, 2014 at 02:16 PM (#4633418)
Hey Costas...even a high horse has to stop once in while to get water.
   1674. Juan Uribe Marching and Chowder Society Posted: January 08, 2014 at 02:20 PM (#4633423)
Wow, all the sportswriters are coming off very well (especially Rosenthal and Gammons). The only guy who looks like he is not up to the task is Harold Reynolds.


Disagree. Rosenthal denied amphetamines are performance enhancing.
   1675. Juan Uribe Marching and Chowder Society Posted: January 08, 2014 at 02:21 PM (#4633424)
Interesting perspective about steroids from Smoltz. Smart guy.


I missed Smoltz. Care to summarize?
   1676. Rusty Priske Posted: January 08, 2014 at 02:22 PM (#4633426)
Rosenthal denied amphetamines are performance enhancing.


Seriously?! I normally quite like Rosenthal but that is... pretty ridiculous.
   1677. Juan Uribe Marching and Chowder Society Posted: January 08, 2014 at 02:23 PM (#4633428)
Seriously?! I normally quite like Rosenthal but that is... pretty ridiculous.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but he said steroids were in one camp--hurt the integrity of the game, and amphetamines and cocaine were in another camp--didn't describe this camp but seemed to suggest they were just for recreation.
   1678. Bourbon Samurai Posted: January 08, 2014 at 02:23 PM (#4633429)
That's an interesting pronounciation of cerebral
   1679. cardsfanboy Posted: January 08, 2014 at 02:24 PM (#4633430)
Seriously?! I normally quite like Rosenthal but that is... pretty ridiculous.


Costas pulled out the Amps are performance enabling drugs not enhancing.

I understand what people are trying to do with this, but it's a ridiculous position.
   1680. Fog City Blues Posted: January 08, 2014 at 02:28 PM (#4633433)
Last minute ballot reveal from Andrew Baggarly (10): Maddux, Glavine, Thomas, Bonds, Clemens, Bagwell, Piazza, Biggio, Raines, Martinez.
   1681. Juan Uribe Marching and Chowder Society Posted: January 08, 2014 at 02:30 PM (#4633436)
Costas pulled out the Amps are performance enabling drugs not enhancing.


Calling them performance-enhancing drugs is a self-fulfilling prophecy (that's not the right word but you get the drift). Just by the definition, you make a conceptual leap by not proving it. I guess my point is, the term can't define both amps and roids, but if the term must be used, it must fit both.
   1682. Swedish Chef Posted: January 08, 2014 at 02:31 PM (#4633437)
Again, the deadspin vote is less of a travesty than the one vote for Morris only.

Maybe that was the Deadspin vote.
   1683. Fanshawe Posted: January 08, 2014 at 02:32 PM (#4633440)
Costas pulled out the Amps are performance enabling drugs not enhancing.

I understand what people are trying to do with this, but it's a ridiculous position.


What do you mean? Everyone who has ever played a video game knows that all baseball players have a range of relevant abilities that can all be precisely rated on a scale of 1-100.
   1684. Juan Uribe Marching and Chowder Society Posted: January 08, 2014 at 02:33 PM (#4633441)
Again, the deadspin vote is less of a travesty than the one vote for Morris only.


How do you treat that guy if he's the beat writer for your team? I already knew he was old school and not very thoughtful, but now it's clear he's not even unbiased.
   1685. Juan Uribe Marching and Chowder Society Posted: January 08, 2014 at 02:35 PM (#4633442)
What do you mean? Everyone who has ever played a video game knows that all baseball players have a range of relevant abilities that can all be precisely rated on a scale of 1-100.


....and when you scale a guy all the way to 99 in every attribute in Edit Player mode, he promptly begins hitting infield flies while Aaron Miles is hitting 450-foot bombs.
   1686. Bourbon Samurai Posted: January 08, 2014 at 02:37 PM (#4633444)
Good Dave Stewart shout out. I know he's not HOF, but if I built a special "Bourbon Samurai's Baseball Experience HOF", he'd be in.
   1687. plim Posted: January 08, 2014 at 02:37 PM (#4633445)
How do you treat that guy if he's the beat writer for your team?


Ask CHB what Red Sox Nation thinks of him...
   1688. DA Baracus Posted: January 08, 2014 at 02:39 PM (#4633446)
How do you treat that guy if he's the beat writer for your team? I already knew he was old school and not very thoughtful, but now it's clear he's not even unbiased.


Are you talking about Gurnick or whoever sold their vote to Deadspin?
   1689. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 08, 2014 at 02:40 PM (#4633450)
   1690. Pete L. Posted: January 08, 2014 at 02:41 PM (#4633451)
@Weird_Meat, Ryan: comparing our databases, you are missing SHi Davidi, and Andrew Baggarly (juste posted). Let me know if you need the full ballot...scrambling here, more time later.
   1691. zonk Posted: January 08, 2014 at 02:41 PM (#4633452)
Piazza looks like he might have a slim chance...

Would a class of 5 be the biggest BBWAA class ever?
   1692. Mickey Henry Mays Posted: January 08, 2014 at 02:41 PM (#4633453)
I hope Maddux, Glavine and Cox can complete their speeches.
   1693. Bourbon Samurai Posted: January 08, 2014 at 02:42 PM (#4633454)
Harold Reynolds ballot- Biggio, Maddux, Glavine, Morris Thomas

He doesn't have a vote, but that's what he'd do.

Smoltz says the same.
   1694. JE (Jason) Posted: January 08, 2014 at 02:42 PM (#4633455)
Costas is a buffoon.

He is also the master of throwing strawmen everytime his view is under attack. I really believe his venerated status among sports media is a result of longevity and not much else.

As for Robothal, I wouldn't be too hard on him. He is evolving toward the majority sentiment here but you can't expect him to tell Costas that he's way out of line.

EDIT: Sue me, but I still hold the Leitch-Bissinger episode against Costas. That was some ugly ####.
   1695. Bourbon Samurai Posted: January 08, 2014 at 02:43 PM (#4633457)
wait...Bob Costas voted for Bonds and Clemens???
   1696. The District Attorney Posted: January 08, 2014 at 02:43 PM (#4633458)
Heh, they ask Reynolds and Smoltz who they'd vote for, and since God forbid they "vote against" anyone, they both explicitly say that they're going to tell you who they think will be elected instead. Harold, you keep wondering why we don't solicit the opinions of a player's contemporaries!
   1697. LargeBill Posted: January 08, 2014 at 02:43 PM (#4633459)
Last guesses:
1. Biggio crosses finish line by skin of his teeth 75.2%
2. Sosa survives 5.3%
3. Palmeiro falls off 4.8
4. Mattingly survives 6.4%
5. Piazza climbs to 69%
6. Morris gets to 71%
7. Four voters omit Maddux
   1698. Bourbon Samurai Posted: January 08, 2014 at 02:43 PM (#4633460)
Whoa...Costas was trolling us.
   1699. cardsfanboy Posted: January 08, 2014 at 02:43 PM (#4633461)
Costas would still put Bonds and Clemens in, even with his rabid ped hatred... I have to respect that from him.
   1700. McCoy Posted: January 08, 2014 at 02:44 PM (#4633462)
Would a class of 5 be the biggest BBWAA class ever?

First year 5 as well.
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