Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Friday, July 06, 2012

The Atlantic: Barra: The MLB All-Star Game Continues Its Slide Toward Irrelevance

Slide, Pujols, Slide!

[D]espite the fans’ good judgment in picking [Josh] Hamilton, it’s not fair that [Albert] Pujols isn’t on this year’s All-Star squad. And I don’t care who you have to leave off the roster—well, that is besides Hamilton and maybe Derek Jeter—to put him on it.

One of the things wrong with baseball’s All-Star Game is that there simply aren’t enough recognizable names in the game. That’s one of the reasons ratings have been dropping steadily in the last few years. It’s true that all-star games are losing their appeal in all sports. ...

I have to ask: What’s wrong with fans’ memories? Does anyone think that 30 years from now Detroit’s Prince Fielder, Chicago’s Paul Konerko, the Yankees’ Mark Teixiera, or the Rangers’ Mitch Moreland will be remembered as being in the same class with Albert Pujols? I know Pujols is having a sub-par season, batting just .272 with 12 home runs, but hasn’t he proven over 12 major league seasons that he is undeniably an All-Star, with a career batting average of .326 with 458 home runs? Are we really voting for an All-Star squad or for the The Really Good Players Who Just Happen To Be Having Pretty Good Years squad?

The relentless drone of ESPN and countless sports websites have fostered a “What Have You Done Over The Last Couple of Months” attitude that detracts from what All-Star Games were once about. In the 1950s and into the early-1960s, few would have excluded Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, Ted Williams, Stan Musial, or Henry Aaron from the All-Star Game because they had a slightly off first half.

If you don’t understand that Albert Pujols in a class with these guys, then perhaps you need to rethink their definition of All-Star.

bobm Posted: July 06, 2012 at 10:54 AM | 49 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: albert pujols, all-star game, allen barra

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. Guapo Posted: July 06, 2012 at 11:55 AM (#4174519)
Does anyone think that 30 years from now Detroit’s Prince Fielder, Chicago’s Paul Konerko, the Yankees’ Mark Teixiera, or the Rangers’ Mitch Moreland will be remembered as being in the same class with Albert Pujols?


Mitch Moreland was selected to the All-Star Game?
   2. Famous Original Joe C Posted: July 06, 2012 at 11:59 AM (#4174530)

Mitch Moreland was selected to the All-Star Game?


Had to check - thankfully, no.
   3. TR_Sullivan Posted: July 06, 2012 at 12:05 PM (#4174541)
Somebody had to be left behind in Arlington and watch the clubhouse
   4. John Northey Posted: July 06, 2012 at 12:07 PM (#4174546)
Outside of their rookie seasons (none made it on rookie year)...
Mickey Mantle: not on the 1966 AS team at age 34 (did get some MVP votes though)
Hank Aaron: not on the 1976 AS team at age 42 (his final season)
Willie Mays: only missed due to military
Ted Williams: Only missed in 1952 (military)
Stan Musial: only missed due to being a rookie

Funny, if I had to guess I'd have thought Mickey Mantle would've been the only one to never miss, instead outside of Aaron's final season it was the only one missed.
   5. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: July 06, 2012 at 12:09 PM (#4174553)
Well, it seems like half the guys who have been to the game multiple times don't even want to be there. So Pujols gets his 3 day vacation this way.
   6. fra paolo Posted: July 06, 2012 at 12:19 PM (#4174567)
Are we really voting for an All-Star squad or for the The Really Good Players Who Just Happen To Be Having Pretty Good Years squad?


But if we don't vote for The Really Good Players... then the other journalists will be up in arms.
   7. Joey B. has reignited his October #Natitude Posted: July 06, 2012 at 12:23 PM (#4174572)
Well, it seems like half the guys who have been to the game multiple times don't even want to be there. So Pujols gets his 3 day vacation this way.

Do we know for sure that Pujols is done with the game and doesn't want to be in it any more? I'm not saying that you're wrong, I honestly don't know.
   8. Tom Nawrocki Posted: July 06, 2012 at 12:27 PM (#4174582)
I think he listed Moreland because he finished ahead of Pujols in the fan voting.
   9. The Long Arm of Rudy Law Posted: July 06, 2012 at 12:31 PM (#4174591)
If you don’t understand that Albert Pujols in a class with these guys, then perhaps you need to rethink their definition of All-Star.


He's right. I should rethink their definition of All-Star.
   10. jack the seal clubber (on the sidelines of life) Posted: July 06, 2012 at 12:33 PM (#4174593)
To me it seems that's the whole philosophical issue with the All Star game.....is it there for the players having the best half season, or is it there for the fans to see the "stars"? Until this is resolved any arguments over who belongs and who doesn't are pointless. Pujols doesn't belong if you look at his numbers over the first part of 2012.
   11. Loren F. Posted: July 06, 2012 at 12:37 PM (#4174600)
I think the Web and online voting must be having some impact on the fan voting. When I was a kid in the 1970s, I would get to vote using a paper ballot those two or three times I went to a ballgame in the first half of the season. I didn't have access to every candidate's first-half stats with one click from the ballot. And while I had newspapers obviously, I didn't have the visceral impact of daily videos of amazing catches, clutch steals, swinging strikeouts, or booming home runs from all over MLB, except for the highlights on "This Week in Baseball". So I was less informed and I voted a lot for the familiar names, especially in the other league (Joe Morgan is great and must deserve it, etc.).

Also, and this is a separate issue: in Mantle, Mays, Aaron, Williams and Musial, Barra picked five players who played at such a consistently high level that they pretty much deserved an All-Star berth every year, except in some cases the final year or two. Sure, maybe Musial didn't deserve it in 1959. And Aaron probably wasn't deserving in 1975 based on his first-half numbers but, you know, the year before he had frickin' broken one of the most hallowed records in sports. Etcetera. The point is, this is a unique, elite group of inner-circle Hall of Famers, and it isn't entirely fair to use this group as a benchmark for others.

   12. Tom Nawrocki Posted: July 06, 2012 at 12:43 PM (#4174610)
Until this is resolved any arguments over who belongs and who doesn't are pointless.


Well, there isn't really any way to resolve it.

As I said in the other thread, I think the idea of picking All-Stars based almost entirely on first-half numbers is a bad one, but I respect that some people feel that's how it should be done. Barra should have noted that his viewpoint doesn't necessarily belong to everyone.
   13. Comic Strip Person Posted: July 06, 2012 at 12:46 PM (#4174616)
I think one point to be made is that when the players Barra mentioned were playing, the league was half the size it is now, which meant there were fewer potential players, and fan bases, to sneak ahead of them in an off year.
The other observation I'd make is that Barra is understating Pujol's season by calling it "slightly off". When looking at the players on his list, the only full seasons with OPS+'s as low as Pujols is right now came when they were rookies or in their late 30s and 40s. I don't have time (or means?) to see half-season numbers for those players, but I think it's fair to say this is an unusually bad season for an all-time great hitter at this age.
When you consider that his old fan base (St. Louis) probably did not vote much for Albert, and his new fan base (LA of A) might not have either because of disappointment, this outcome shouldn't be that surprising.
   14. BDC Posted: July 06, 2012 at 12:48 PM (#4174619)
is it there for the players having the best half season, or is it there for the fans to see the "stars"?

It's always seemed from player comments that they're in favor of the former interpretation. Players are competitive, they look at the stats, and they like it to be acknowledged when they're ahead in current competition.

The latter was Bill James's attitude, as well as that of a lot of fans and probably a lot of statheads. Half-seasons are a SSS, and even if Mitch Moreland or Craig Gentry is hitting really well, it's still absurd to think they're greater players right now than Albert Pujols or Curtis Granderson (just to pick random examples).
   15. Comic Strip Person Posted: July 06, 2012 at 12:52 PM (#4174624)
Also, Barra's wrong about one thing: Albert Pujols isn't in Ted Williams' category. TW had a lifetime OPS+ of 190, even though he lost 3 years of prime and zero years of his decline. Albert Pujols has had 1 season over 190, and a lifetime OPS+ of 168. Albert's career is very comparable to the other guys, but none of them are in Ted Williams' category as a hitter.
   16. Joey B. has reignited his October #Natitude Posted: July 06, 2012 at 12:53 PM (#4174626)
To me it seems that's the whole philosophical issue with the All Star game.....is it there for the players having the best half season, or is it there for the fans to see the "stars"? Until this is resolved any arguments over who belongs and who doesn't are pointless. Pujols doesn't belong if you look at his numbers over the first part of 2012.

I agree that there is a legitimate philosophical difference of opinion up for debate here, but it has to be one or the other. If someone is going to tell me that Chipper Jones belongs in the All-Star Game, that's fine, but just don't then turn around and tell me that Pujols doesn't belong. If you're going to tell me that Bryce Harper, one of the best 19 year olds in the history of the game, hasn't done enough to be in it that's fine as well, but then don't tell me that Yu Darvish with his 102.2 career MLB innings pitched seriously deserves to be in there.

But at least the A.L. got that desperately needed 14th pitcher on the roster. This way none of them will likely have to get more than two outs.
   17. zonk Posted: July 06, 2012 at 01:03 PM (#4174634)
Columns like this remind me of what a friend who was a columnist for the college paper once told me -- he'd usually draft to the point of only needing minor changes two different columns in advance of the weekend's football game... one bemoaning the team's crappiness, the other lauding their greatness. That way, he could just enjoy the game and festivities, only needing a few spare minutes to dust off the right one to hand in after the game.
   18. jack the seal clubber (on the sidelines of life) Posted: July 06, 2012 at 01:05 PM (#4174637)
If you're going to tell me that Bryce Harper, one of the best 19 year olds in the history of the game, hasn't done enough to be in it that's fine as well, but then don't tell me that Yu Darvish with his 102.2 career MLB innings pitched seriously deserves to be in there.


That's it exactly..the consistency isn't there. Do we want to see,say, the 1973 Willie Mays in the game, to honor him for his past, or do we get a good young player in? The "casual" fan that MLB wants to watch the game probably has no idea that Chipper isn't the best 3b in baseball. I think most people know who Harper is and want to see him; where most casual fans aren't clear at all about who Darvish is.
   19. PreservedFish Posted: July 06, 2012 at 01:06 PM (#4174638)
I agree that there is a legitimate philosophical difference of opinion up for debate here, but it has to be one or the other.


Why? I claim my right to change my standards on a case-by-case basis.
   20. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: July 06, 2012 at 01:09 PM (#4174648)
I think one point to be made is that when the players Barra mentioned were playing, the league was half the size it is now, which meant there were fewer potential players, and fan bases, to sneak ahead of them in an off year.

And it's also a hell of a lot easier now to cast multiple ballots than it was when each ballot had to be cut out of a newspaper and mailed in a separate envelope with a first class stamp. In the days of Mantle, Musial and Williams they didn't even have ballots available at the ballparks.

OTOH if one team's fanbase got a jones about it back then, it was also easier to overwhelm the ballot box. In 1956 and 1957 a Cincinnati radio station promoted the idea of voting for a straight Reds ticket, and the Sunday Cincinnati Enquirer printed multiple ballots that made it easier to do so. The result was that in 1956 five out of the eight starters were Reds, and in 1957 only Ford Frick's override kept Willie Mays and Hank Aaron in the game as starters ahead of Gus Bell and Wally Post. Prior to Frick's action, only Stan Musial had survived the ballot stuffing campaign. After that, Frick took away the fans' vote altogether and gave it to the players, managers and coaches, and it wasn't restored to the fans until 1970.
   21. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: July 06, 2012 at 01:20 PM (#4174665)

1. Barra does have a good point, in that most of those guys are barely having better seasons than Pujols to begin with. Konerko is the only guy who is having a much better year at the plate.

2. On the other hand, Fielder, Tex, and Konerko are all guys who have very respectable careers to date. Nobody would be surprised in 30 years to see that they made the 2012 All Star team. Moreland, OTOH, not so much.
   22. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: July 06, 2012 at 01:44 PM (#4174694)
Mitch Moreland went on the DL three weeks ago, so Washington's failure to put him on the team and then immediately replace him can be seen as nothing other than a calculated snub.
   23. boteman Posted: July 06, 2012 at 01:49 PM (#4174702)
All this fuss over an exhibition game.

Wait, what?? It COUNTS???!!

We don't care about the vote, we just wanna see some dingers.
   24. Bob Evans Posted: July 06, 2012 at 01:56 PM (#4174713)
Barra should have noted that his viewpoint doesn't necessarily belong to everyone.

This should go without saying to all but the most easily butthurt.
   25. cardsfanboy Posted: July 06, 2012 at 02:03 PM (#4174723)
I'm fine with the competing philosophies on who is an all star. I'm not fine with any philosophy that puts Jeter on the roster again. The guy hasn't been an average player since 2009. You can't just keep putting a guy in who is hanging around because of his contracts/team.

Of course any voting system that didn't have McCutchen as a starter is a screwed up system that needs to be overhauled immediately.
   26. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: July 06, 2012 at 02:04 PM (#4174725)
We don't care about the vote, we just wanna see some dingers.


Amen.
   27. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: July 06, 2012 at 02:08 PM (#4174732)
To me it seems that's the whole philosophical issue with the All Star game.....is it there for the players having the best half season, or is it there for the fans to see the "stars"?

Its not binary. Its both. Melky Cabrera absolutely deserves to be in the ASG. And stars also belong.

   28. Srul Itza Posted: July 06, 2012 at 02:47 PM (#4174793)
Its not binary. Its both. Melky Cabrera absolutely deserves to be in the ASG. And stars also belong.


Which gets to the question -- how many "stars" are there, who should be there even if they are having mediocre or poor first halfs? With 35 man rosters, I just don't think it is that hard to find a place for them.
   29. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 06, 2012 at 03:08 PM (#4174811)
There's just too many teams and too many players to keep track of, and thus too few players who are household names.


Dear Commissioner - today there are too many players and teams - please eliminate five teams. No, I am not a crackpot.
   30. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 06, 2012 at 03:09 PM (#4174812)
Didn't Reds fans stuff the ballot one year in the 70s and got almost the entire Reds lineup into the game until the Commish intervened? Yea, this is totally a new thing that is ruining the game. The way to attract more fans is to allow them to engage with the game less!
   31. vortex of dissipation Posted: July 06, 2012 at 03:21 PM (#4174822)
Didn't Reds fans stuff the ballot one year in the 70s and got almost the entire Reds lineup into the game until the Commish intervened?


1957. Reds fans stuffed the ballot box, getting seven Reds starters in the lineup. The only Reds starter they didn't get elected was George Crowe, who led the Reds with 31 homers that year, but lost to Stan Musial (can't argue with that)! The commissioner replaced two Reds outfielders with Willie Mays and Henry Aaron (can't argue with that, either!), but let the other five Reds starters stand. After the season, the fans lost the vote until 1970.
   32. Randy Jones Posted: July 06, 2012 at 03:31 PM (#4174832)
Also, it was newspapers enabling the ballot stuffing. Apparently, at the time, the only way to vote outside of going to games was to cut a ballot out of a newspaper, fill it out, and mail it in. So at least one Cincinnati newspaper printed up multiple ballots, already filled out with all Reds players, in their Sunday edition.
   33. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: July 06, 2012 at 03:32 PM (#4174835)
Its not binary. Its both. Melky Cabrera absolutely deserves to be in the ASG. And stars also belong.


OK, let's try to do this:

C - Mauer, Pierzynski
1B - Pujols, Encarnacion
2B - Cano, Kipnis
SS - Jeter, Andrus
3B - Rodriguez, Cabrera
LF - Hamilton, Jackson
CF - Trout, Jones
RF - Bautista, Reddick

P - Verlander, Sale, Hernandez, Sabathia, Peavy, Weaver, Price, Harrison, Lester
RP - Rodney

With 26 players, we have all the players most likely to make the HOF at each position plus the 1st Half fWAR leader at each position. We've also represented all the teams except the Royals, so we can add Moustakas since the other 2 3B are questionable defenders.

Add the fan voting winners -- Napoli, Beltre, Fielder and Granderson -- and you've met all the criteria mentioned with 31 players.

If you insist on having a DH who's not a real player you can add Ortiz.

All we're missing is the mediocre relievers -- Perez, Cook, Nathan types -- and some other guys who nobody would really miss -- Dunn, Wieters, Butler, etc.

If someone really has strong feelings about another player not mentioned we have 2 more spots available on a 34 man roster.
   34. Gamingboy Posted: July 06, 2012 at 03:59 PM (#4174857)
In other news, baseball has been dying since 1845.
   35. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 06, 2012 at 05:25 PM (#4174905)
Funny, if I had to guess I'd have thought Mickey Mantle would've been the only one to never miss,

Joe DiMaggio is the only player to make the All-Star team every year he played.

As far as the article, I was stunned that LaRussa didn't find a way to add Pujols to his squad.
   36. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: July 06, 2012 at 06:10 PM (#4174940)
Didn't Reds fans stuff the ballot one year in the 70s and got almost the entire Reds lineup into the game until the Commish intervened?


See # 20. I answered that one about 2 hours before you asked it.

1957. Reds fans stuffed the ballot box, getting seven Reds starters in the lineup. The only Reds starter they didn't get elected was George Crowe, who led the Reds with 31 homers that year, but lost to Stan Musial (can't argue with that)! The commissioner replaced two Reds outfielders with Willie Mays and Henry Aaron (can't argue with that, either!), but let the other five Reds starters stand. After the season, the fans lost the vote until 1970.


vortex, I'll have a 16 oz. RC Cola

Also, it was newspapers enabling the ballot stuffing. Apparently, at the time, the only way to vote outside of going to games was to cut a ballot out of a newspaper, fill it out, and mail it in. So at least one Cincinnati newspaper printed up multiple ballots, already filled out with all Reds players, in their Sunday edition.

And Randy, I'll have a Stroh's
   37. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 06, 2012 at 07:02 PM (#4174981)
I'm not fine with any philosophy that puts Jeter on the roster again.

It shouldn't be a surprise that a 12-time All-Star who hits .303 (higher during most of the voting period) becomes a 13-time All-Star.
   38. AndrewJ Posted: July 06, 2012 at 08:23 PM (#4175118)
I like what Bill James suggested in his first Historical Abstract ... have precinct voting: Whoever finishes #1 at catcher in ballots cast at Turner Field (or at any NL park) -- whether they win by one vote or by 50,000 -- gets 16 points, #2 gets 15, #3 gets 14, etc. And you could make Internet/mail ballots a separate precinct.
   39. The District Attorney Posted: July 06, 2012 at 09:05 PM (#4175161)
Funny you should mention that! I just wasted a lot of time figuring out who the All-Stars would be by a method James described in June 2009 (registration required). Each fanbase votes for THEIR OWN players. Then:
The manager would pick the roster, within these limits:
1) That he must pick one player from each team,
2) That he must pick at least 8 players who finished first in the balloting in their precinct,
3) That he must pick at least 12 players who finished 1 or 2 in the balloting in their precinct,
4) That he must pick at least 16 players who finished 1, 2 or 3 in the balloting in their precinct, and
5) That he cannot pick more than two players from any team.
So, I made up this voting:
NYY:  1. Jeter (SS)        2. Cano (2B)        3. Granderson (OF)
BAL:  1. A. Jones (OF)     2. Wieters (C)      3. Hammel (SP)
TBR:  1. Price (SP)        2. Rodney (RP)      3. J. Molina (C)
BOS:  1. Ortiz (1B)        2. Pedroia (2B)     3. Saltalamacchia (C)
TOR:  1. Bautista (OF/3B)  2. Lawrie (3B)      3. Encarnacion (1B/3B)
CHW:  1. Konerko (1B)      2. Sale (SP)        3. Pierogi (C)
CLE:  1. Choo (OF)         2. A. Cabrera (SS)  3. Kipnis (2B)
DET:  1. Verlander (SP)    2. Fielder (1B)     3. Mi. Cabrera (3B/1B)
KC:   1. Butler (1B)       2. A. Escobar (SS)  3. Moustakas (3B)
MIN:  1. Mauer (C)         2. Willingham (OF)  3. Diamond (SP)
TEX:  1. Hamilton (OF)     2. Kinsler (2B)     3. A. Beltre (3B)
LAA:  1. Weaver (SP)       2. Pujols (1B)      3. Trout (OF)
OAK:  1. McCarthy (SP)     2. Parker (SP)      3. Reddick (OF)
SEA:  1. F. Hernandez (SP) 2. Ichiro (OF)      3. Seager (3B)
WAS:  1. Strasburg (SP)    2. Harper (OF)      3. G. Gonzalez (SP)
NYM:  1. Wright (3B)       2. Dickey (SP)      3. J. Santana (SP)
ATL:  1. Uggla (2B)        2. C. Jones (3B)    3. Heyward (OF)  
MIA:  1. Stanton (OF)      2. H. Ramirez (3B)  3. Infante (2B)
PHI:  1. Ruiz (C)          2. Hamels (SP)      3. Pence (OF)
PIT:  1. McCutchen (OF)    2. McDonald (SP)    3. N. Walker (2B)
CIN:  1. Votto (1B)        2. Cueto (SP)       3. Phillips (2B)
STL:  1. C. Beltran (OF)   2. Y. Molina (C)    3. Furcal (SS)
MIL:  1. Braun (OF)        2. Greinke (SP)     3. Hart (1B/OF)
HOU:  1. Altuve (2B)       2. Lowrie (SS)      3. W. Rodriguez (SP)
CHC:  1. S. Castro (SS)    2. LaHair (1B)      3. A. Soriano (OF)
LAD:  1. Kemp (OF)         2. Kershaw (SP)     3. Ethier (OF)
SF:   1. Cain (SP)         2. Posey (C)        3. Me. Cabrera (OF)
ARI:  1. Miley (SP)        2. A. Hill (2B)     3. Kubel (OF)
SD:   1. Headley (3B)      2. Street (RP)      3. Quentin (OF)
COL:  1. C. Gonzalez (OF)  2. Helton (1B)      3. Fowler (OF)
   40. The District Attorney Posted: July 06, 2012 at 09:12 PM (#4175166)
And I picked these teams.

C: Mauer (MIN), Wieters (BAL)
1B: Konerko (CHW), Ortiz (BOS)
2B: Cano (NYY)
3B: Moustakas (KC)
SS: Jeter (NYY), A. Cabrera (CLE)
OF: Hamilton (TEX), Bautista (TOR), A. Jones (BAL), Trout (LAA)
P: Verlander (DET), Weaver (LAA), F. Hernandez (SEA), McCarthy (OAK), Price (TB), Sale (CHW)

C: Y. Molina (STL), Posey (SF)
1B: Votto (CIN)
2B: Altuve (HOU), A. Hill (ARI)
3B: Wright (NYM), C. Jones (ATL)
SS: S. Castro (CHC)
OF: McCutchen (PIT), Braun (MIL), Stanton (MIA), C. Gonzalez (COL), Kemp (LAD - injured)
P: Strasburg (WAS), Dickey (NYM), Greinke (MIL), Street (SD), Kershaw (LAD), Hamels (PHI)

As James says:
I think it’s a better system; I think it makes a better game with stronger rosters, more meaningful participation from the fans, and it makes selection to the game a real honor. New York and Boston and LA fans can’t swamp the voting because there are more of them; they can only vote for their own guys. Fans are not asked (or not allowed) to vote on hundreds of players, many of whom they probably haven’t thought about all season. They’re asked to sort out the players on their home team.
I’d pay to watch [these] guys play a baseball game. Chone Figgins taking his at bat and getting congratulations for being an All-Star… .I’ve seen enough of that. No city gets shorted in the voting, nobody gets to go to the All-Star game because his old manager owes him a favor and he’s having a decent year. It’s all stars.
   41. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 06, 2012 at 09:18 PM (#4175169)
Yeah, anything to get around situations like this one time (in '60?) when Cincinnati fans stuffed the ballot box and...

Max of two dudes per team? Am I misunderstanding - that sounds way too low.

   42. Randy Jones Posted: July 06, 2012 at 09:19 PM (#4175170)
5) That he cannot pick more than two players from any team.


And this is where you lose me. The rest of the idea is ok, I don't really like it, but it's not awful. This is just incredibly stupid though. Almost every year there is at least one team that has 3 or more players who are clearly deserving all stars.

For example, under these rules, Jeter and Rivera basically make the all star team every year for the past 10 years and no other Yankees make it. Maybe A-Rod sneaks in over them in his MVP years. They had lots of other guys who were deserving all stars in those years.
   43. Bob Tufts Posted: July 06, 2012 at 09:53 PM (#4175197)
The All-Stars should be the players that are having the best year. Otherwise, it becomes the Irving Thalberg Award.
   44. Jim Wisinski Posted: July 07, 2012 at 02:21 AM (#4175319)
I like players having outstanding half-seasons getting named to the game. I could certainly see forgoing the guys having very good but not amazing years getting passed up in favor of established stars but I think it's great that someone like Fernando Rodney gets recognition for the ridiculous year he's having after so many years of being ordinary or worse.
   45. cardsfanboy Posted: July 07, 2012 at 02:45 AM (#4175323)
The All-Stars should be the players that are having the best year.


If the game was after the season ended, then I would agree.
   46. Walt Davis Posted: July 07, 2012 at 04:57 AM (#4175334)
The All-Stars should be the players that are having the best year. Otherwise, it becomes the Irving Thalberg Award

Alternatively, all-stars whould be the best players at their position regardless of whether they've had a hot or cold 300 PAs.

Anyway, "stars" are guaranteed to make it by the fan vote. If Pujols can't pull votes, what can we say other than he's not a star (yet) in AL fans eyes. I don't know what AL fans have been watching ... but apparently it hasn't been the NL for the last decade. But if the fans* want to see Jeter then they want to see Jeter and that means Jeter is a star (assuming there's anybody to compete against him ... I mean I don't think anybody thinks Napoli's a "star" but obviously there aren't any "real stars" at C).

The players' vote is structured stupidly and needs to be changed/abolished. You can't really praise or blame them for their picks as it's pretty random.

So really it's a question of whether the managers should go by half-season or "best" -- but they're also operating within the constraints of roster flexibility and the one-per-team rule so I'm not sure how many times they have to choose between "hot" and "best."

* The counter-argument being that (probably) there are more non-Jeter votes than Jeter votes so it's not like there's a fan consensus that they want to see him. Could be as many or more fans sick of seeing him there as voted for him.
   47. BDC Posted: July 07, 2012 at 08:21 AM (#4175342)
The All-Stars should be the players that are having the best year.

If the game was after the season ended, then I would agree


Another of Bill James's ideas (IIRC) was to consider the ~162-game stretch since the last ASG game. That's probably a good bellwether of who the best players are right now, but it's not an very intuitive way to think about voting.

I never vote anyway, honestly. I think it's the "Vote 25 Times!" announcements that killed my interest. They should ink your thumbprint and have Jimmy Carter monitor the ballots.
   48. TerpNats Posted: July 07, 2012 at 09:02 AM (#4175352)
I never vote anyway, honestly. I think it's the "Vote 25 Times!" announcements that killed my interest.
It's safe to say you never lived in Jersey City in the Frank Hague era.
   49. cardsfanboy Posted: July 07, 2012 at 10:16 AM (#4175367)
Another of Bill James's ideas (IIRC) was to consider the ~162-game stretch since the last ASG game. That's probably a good bellwether of who the best players are right now, but it's not an very intuitive way to think about voting.


That is more or less what I try to do. Roughly speaking I go 1/3 current season, 1/3 combined since last all star break, 1/6 last three years and 1/6 career. Not completely locked into those percentages, but basically I start with every player at the position having a decent year, then look at their numbers since the all star break of last year(or in cases like Buster Posey their entire last year) and make a subjective adjustment based upon how good they "really" are (last three year average) and whether they get props for their career.

The players' vote is structured stupidly and needs to be changed/abolished. You can't really praise or blame them for their picks as it's pretty random.


Agreed, even a simple change such as saying "if the players vote matches up with the fan vote, then that is their vote" would be just fine, the stupidity of allowing their second choice to go in is beyond stupid. Right now it's a massive hindrance and is largely the sole responsibility for the all star snubs.

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Francis
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogMLB - Royals' Ned Yost keeps managing to win - ESPN
(9 - 12:55pm, Oct 25)
Last: The elusive Robert Denby

NewsblogOT: The Soccer Thread, September 2014
(931 - 12:52pm, Oct 25)
Last: Biff, highly-regarded young guy

NewsblogOT: Politics, October 2014: Sunshine, Baseball, and Etch A Sketch: How Politicians Use Analogies
(3770 - 12:51pm, Oct 25)
Last: BDC

NewsblogPhils' philospophy beginning to evolve | phillies.com
(8 - 12:43pm, Oct 25)
Last: Cargo Cultist

NewsblogDave Dombrowski: Injury worse than expected, Miguel Cabrera 'is as tough as you can possibly be' | MLive.com
(9 - 12:32pm, Oct 25)
Last: madvillain

NewsblogGambling Bochy creature of habit when it comes to pitchers | CSN Bay Area
(2 - 12:26pm, Oct 25)
Last: Leroy Kincaid

Newsblog9 reasons Hunter Pence is the most interesting man in the World (Series) | For The Win
(20 - 12:25pm, Oct 25)
Last: BDC

Hall of MeritMost Meritorious Player: 1959 Ballot
(7 - 11:46am, Oct 25)
Last: lieiam

NewsblogRoyals get four AL Gold Glove finalists, but not Lorenzo Cain | The Kansas City Star
(17 - 11:46am, Oct 25)
Last: BDC

NewsblogOT: Monthly NBA Thread - October 2014
(391 - 11:43am, Oct 25)
Last: Tom Cervo, backup catcher

NewsblogYost's managerial decisions make for extra-entertaining World Series | FOX Sports
(2 - 11:13am, Oct 25)
Last: Everybody Loves Tyrus Raymond

Newsblog2014 WORLD SERIES GAME 3 OMNICHATTER
(517 - 10:40am, Oct 25)
Last: RoyalsRetro (AG#1F)

NewsblogBoston Red Sox prospect Deven Marrero enjoying turnaround in Arizona Fall League | MiLB.com News | The Official Site of Minor League Baseball
(2 - 10:32am, Oct 25)
Last: Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer

NewsblogBuster Olney on Twitter: "Sources: Manager Joe Maddon has exercised an opt-out clause in his contract and is leaving the Tampa Bay Rays immediately."
(82 - 9:30am, Oct 25)
Last: TerpNats

NewsblogCurt Schilling not hiding his scars - ESPN Boston
(23 - 7:32am, Oct 25)
Last: Merton Muffley

Page rendered in 0.6292 seconds
52 querie(s) executed