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Wednesday, December 26, 2007

The Baseball Analysts: Lederer: Q&A: Tracy Ringolsby on the BBWAA

And on top of the umpty ump go-round on the BBWAA/internet writers situation…we get Ringolsby’s HOF picks.

Tracy: Alphabetically, Bert Blyleven, Dave Concepcion, Rich Gossage, Jack Morris, Lee Smith and Alan Trammell. The biggest debates for me were Tim Raines, who obviously was overshadowed by Rickey Henderson, but also if you take Vince Coleman’s five top years, I would say he outperformed Raines, too, and I don’t see Coleman as a Hall of Famer.

...Rich: You sent me an email last year, saying that you had come around on Blyleven. I commend you for being open minded on the subject and changing your vote. My next project is to have you see the light on Raines. I would be remiss if I let the comparison to Coleman go by without comment. Yes, they both played left field, led off, and stole a lot of bases. But, other than that, the difference between Raines and Coleman is like night and day. Raines hit .294/.385/.425; Coleman, .264/.324/.345. That’s 141 points of OPS. Over the course of their careers, Raines got on base twice as often and had twice as many total bases as Coleman.

I know you referenced their top five years, but the truth is that Raines (.334/.413/.476 with an OPS+ of 151) was a much better player than Coleman (.292/.340/.400 with an OPS+ of 104) at their respective peaks, too. I don’t think the five-year numbers are much different. We agree on Coleman. He’s not a Hall of Famer. But we disagree on Raines. I believe he is very worthy. I hope you keep an open mind on Raines and give him a closer look next year.

Tracy: That’s probably not the only one we disagree on. Raines will have to get in line for me, behind Dawson and Murphy and Rice, while I still try and sort those three out. I know there is support for each of them, but I guess what I have the hardest time dealing with is why Rice’s support seems stronger when I would put him third out of the three, and I’m not convinced yet on any of the three. Now that’s where a vote gets difficult because I have so much respect for the people that Dawson and Murphy are that it is hard not to put them on my ballot.

Repoz Posted: December 26, 2007 at 07:15 AM | 41 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: hall of fame, history, media, online

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   1. Jose Molina wants a nickname like "A-Rod" Posted: December 26, 2007 at 08:41 AM (#2653505)
you can't be serious. coleman better than raines? this has to be one of the dumbest things ive seen said by a mainstream writer - and ive seen a lot of dumb things said. and this has nothing to do with ballfan simply coming to things from a different point-of-view from the stat heads. this is just plain stupid. rains was superior, significantly so in many areas, than coleman in every area except SB (and even there it's very close - they both stole a ton of bases at a great rate.) ringolsby is simply not a very intelligent human being.
   2. grandcosmo Posted: December 26, 2007 at 09:11 AM (#2653507)
>>>>Raines will have to get in line for me, behind Dawson and Murphy and Rice, while I still try and sort those three out....I’m not convinced yet on any of the three.

I like how he seems to imply that the situation is still fluid as to whether players who have been out of the league for over a decade are worthy of going into the Hall of Fame or not.

Rice retired in 19-freakin'-89 for God's sake. Either he belongs in the HOF or he doesn't.
   3. Shock Posted: December 26, 2007 at 09:32 AM (#2653509)
I'm not really one of the guys who sees Raines as a no-doubter for the HOF. Unlike many primates, I can actually see the case against him, and I'm not too upset when a writer says he's not going to vote for him. With that said, comparing Raines to Vince F'ing Coleman is just absolutely insane. I mean totally nuts. Why not compare Mark McGwire to Sean Casey while we're at it?

Is that how most of the BBWAA sees Raines? Vince Coleman with a longer career? Holy hell.
   4. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 26, 2007 at 10:56 AM (#2653510)
The writer in question is an accomplished fellow who also drops by BBTF every so often. It may be that knowing the denizens of these parts and their predisposed nature for mass hysteria he is purposefully taking what seems to be an outrageous position.

Something to consider.
   5. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: December 26, 2007 at 11:58 AM (#2653515)
My Boxing Day morning resolution is that if I can't say anything nice about the dumbest writer in the entire BBWAA, I shouldn't say anything at all.
   6. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 26, 2007 at 01:34 PM (#2653531)
It may be that knowing the denizens of these parts and their predisposed nature for mass hysteria he is purposefully taking what seems to be an outrageous position.


If that's the case, Harvey, he has succeeded beyond his wildest dreams.
   7. Shooty is obsessed with the latest hoodie Posted: December 26, 2007 at 01:40 PM (#2653533)
I bet 10 bucks Ringolsby said that just to #### with us. I'm claiming that as a shout out. There is no way a human being who can type a complete sentence would think Coleman was ever better than Raines.

So yeah, I'm with Harvey on this one.
   8. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: December 26, 2007 at 01:49 PM (#2653536)
There is no way a human being who can type a complete sentence would think Coleman was ever better than Raines.
Have you ever met a sportswriter? They're basically the people who flunked out of gym class and journalism school, and were rejected by McDonalds.
   9. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 26, 2007 at 01:54 PM (#2653539)
Ringolsby should have been asked to explain how Coleman's best five season were better than Raines'. That would have been extremely entertaining.
   10. Shooty is obsessed with the latest hoodie Posted: December 26, 2007 at 01:55 PM (#2653540)
Have you ever met a sportswriter? They're basically the people who flunked out of gym class and journalism school, and were rejected by McDonalds.

Mom!
   11. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 26, 2007 at 01:56 PM (#2653541)
BTW, giving us a big FU at the expense of Raines' candidacy would be pretty juvenile.
   12. J. Sosa Posted: December 26, 2007 at 01:59 PM (#2653542)
Sportswriting is a tough gig. I would not want it. That said...

Vince Coleman???!!!!
   13. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: December 26, 2007 at 02:12 PM (#2653544)
The writer in question is an accomplished fellow who also drops by BBTF every so often. It may be that knowing the denizens of these parts and their predisposed nature for mass hysteria he is purposefully taking what seems to be an outrageous position.

I think you're giving him way too much credit. My guess is that he just tossed the Raines/Coleman comparison out there without having spent much (any?) time thinking about it, and once Lederer pointed out the stupidity of the comparison he changed the subject to Rice, Dawson and Murphy.
   14. Handle's Messi-ah Posted: December 26, 2007 at 02:22 PM (#2653549)
In a way, the BBWAA gives the writers 15 years to decide. I realize many people take the HOF very seriously and each vote seems almost life and death, but I can also see where a writer thinks he has 15 years to make a final decision. I respect his patience.
   15. Shooty is obsessed with the latest hoodie Posted: December 26, 2007 at 02:34 PM (#2653556)
In a way, the BBWAA gives the writers 15 years to decide. I realize many people take the HOF very seriously and each vote seems almost life and death, but I can also see where a writer thinks he has 15 years to make a final decision. I respect his patience.

Except a ridiculous number of worthy candidates drop off the ballot because of the 5% rule. It would be nice if we could keep arguing for Whitaker or Will Clark. Whoops!
   16. Howie Menckel Posted: December 26, 2007 at 03:44 PM (#2653587)
"Have you ever met a sportswriter? They're basically the people who flunked out of gym class and journalism school, and were rejected by McDonalds."

That's the kind of comment that is so inane that it diminishes the author more than it does the intended recipients of the insult. Even if it were later claimed to be sarcasm, it would have failed just as spectacularly on that front.

That said, the comparison of Raines to Coleman in terms of peak case for the Hall is preposterous.
   17. zonk Posted: December 26, 2007 at 03:59 PM (#2653604)
Wow.

Forget his BBWAA membership card, column space, and HOF vote... Anyone that says this:

The biggest debates for me were Tim Raines, who obviously was overshadowed by Rickey Henderson, but also if you take Vince Coleman’s five top years, I would say he outperformed Raines, too, and I don’t see Coleman as a Hall of Famer.


Probably shouldn't really be allowed to even watch baseball.

Do us all a favor and take up curling, Tracy....
   18. Shooty is obsessed with the latest hoodie Posted: December 26, 2007 at 04:18 PM (#2653622)
Do us all a favor and take up curling, Tracy....

Hey, he at least recognizes Coleman isn't a HOFer. He doesn't seem to have an opinion on Otis Nixon, though.
   19. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: December 26, 2007 at 04:25 PM (#2653631)
I think people are overreacting. Overall, he has a really good ballot, including the three best backloggers, and leaving off Rice - who has a better shot to get in this year than some might realize.

I disagree vehemently with his position on Raines, but his stance on Blyleven shows he's willing to hear out the opposing point of view and change.

BTW, giving us a big FU at the expense of Raines' candidacy would be pretty juvenile.

Two things: 1) not necessarily what Harv was saying. It's not a matter of vote for Raines or say he's Coleman. A person can think he's better than Coleman but still far short of Hall-worthy. I thought post #4 theorized that he said his position in a way to stir things up, not that he took a position in order to stir things up.

2) That's just Harv's theory anyway. TR doesn't post under HW's name.

Have you ever met a sportswriter? They're basically the people who flunked out of gym class and journalism school, and were rejected by McDonalds.

Oy. Have you ever met a sportswriter? THe people I know who have, such as Sean Forman, who saw them in action at the winter meetings, have a consierably higher opinion of them than this. Second, this guy isn't just a sportswriter. He was elected head of the BBWAA and given the Spinks Award. I have a lot of trouble believing his opinion isn't worthy of respect (even if I think it's wildly off the mark) and that he isn't a passionate baseball fan.

Living in Chciago, I can tell you some sportswriters (cough Jay Mariotti cough) well deserve every negative thing you can say about them. But those guys aren't given the highest awardds possible by their peers. (Actually, with Mariotti, you get some occasssional evidence that other sportswriters think he's scum as well, but that' another story).
   20. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: December 26, 2007 at 05:07 PM (#2653653)
Have you ever met a sportswriter? They're basically the people who flunked out of gym class and journalism school, and were rejected by McDonalds.

Oy. Have you ever met a sportswriter? THe people I know who have, such as Sean Forman, who saw them in action at the winter meetings, have a consierably higher opinion of them than this. Second, this guy isn't just a sportswriter. He was elected head of the BBWAA and given the Spinks Award. I have a lot of trouble believing his opinion isn't worthy of respect (even if I think it's wildly off the mark) and that he isn't a passionate baseball fan.


Of course what David wrote was his usual hyperbole, and Sean isn't the only one who could name scores of exceptions to that hit-and-run description.

That said, lots of those Spink awards were given out largely on a basis of seniority and and not due to any discernable merit. Most of them are eminently worthy of the honor, but it's a long leap between Leonard Koppett and Murray Chass. I also note some obvious omissions, such as Thomas Boswell, who for all his faults has certainly been one of the game's premier writers for the past 30 years. That award of Ringolsby's in and of itself means very little.
   21. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: December 26, 2007 at 05:08 PM (#2653655)
He was elected head of the BBWAA and given the Spinks Award. I have a lot of trouble believing his opinion isn't worthy of respect
It isn't. That's undeniable. Equating Raines to Coleman deserves zero respect. It wouldn't matter if he had won the Pulitzer and the Nobel Prize. It's like comparing Thomas Jefferson to the guy who finished seventh on the most recent season of Survivor -- so monumentally stupid that it would discredit whoever said it no matter what his credentials were.

And yes, I've met sportswriters. I've met journalists, and I've found very few of them even in more 'serious' parts of the media who I would trust to find their way out of a phone booth, if phone booths still existed -- but the sportswriters I've encountered are even lower, because few people think the field is important enough to care about the quality of the work. (When I say the "quality of the work," I don't refer to the technical aspects of writing, although I wouldn't exactly say I was impressed with many sportswriters in that arena, either.)
   22. Frisco Cali Posted: December 26, 2007 at 05:13 PM (#2653660)
Have you ever met a sportswriter?

Yeah. Josh Adande ("J.A." now), Dennis Manoloff, Victor Chi off the top of my head. Each of them very smart, hard workers.
   23. Maury Brown Posted: December 26, 2007 at 05:31 PM (#2653671)
What's funny is how the majority interview was about the BBWAA process, yet everyone has honed in on Tracy's HOF selections.

Read the link... look at the comments regarding the BBWAA inclusion process. Every time there is an interview with someone on the topic, the landscape shifts.

I can tell you this... I've interviewed more than one that have said directly that there is no way that some of the members should be included in the BBWAA based upon the number of games they take in. As someone that contacted me and was at the NY office of The AP for 8-years said, "Look at the list. It's a joke." He said that he knew personally of a key AP member that never went to games -- less than 5 a year -- that was on the Badge List. He brought up how one columnist lived in Vegas... how in the world would you get in 40 games a year if you lived in Vegas?

All that said, everyone that has looked at the list sees value in having these types in the mix with the BBWAA. What got screwed up was by making Neyer and Law the only two that didn't make it in, they brought focus on the whole process -- the subjective manner of saying that members have to attend a, as Ringolsby says, "cover the team on a regular basis." If 4 or 5 had not been selected, there wouldn't have been nearly the bluster -- Neyer and Law would have most likely been lost in the mix.
   24. Adam S Posted: December 26, 2007 at 05:36 PM (#2653674)
I think people are overreacting. Overall, he has a really good ballot, including the three best backloggers, and leaving off Rice - who has a better shot to get in this year than some might realize.

I disagree vehemently with his position on Raines, but his stance on Blyleven shows he's willing to hear out the opposing point of view and change.


I agree. It's better than 80% of the ballots we've seen. The Coleman thing is dumb but less dumb than two suggestions I got last week from world experts in their field who generally provide a lot of insight. Everyone is entitled to throw out some bad off the cuff ideas - especially in this sort of interview.

Credit to Ringolsby as well for geting out there and trying to give poeple an insight into the BBWAA process. After the whole Law brouhaha it reflects well on him that he is getting out there and generating some more constructive debate.
   25. GGC for Sale Posted: December 26, 2007 at 05:55 PM (#2653685)
What's funny is how the majority interview was about the BBWAA process, yet everyone has honed in on Tracy's HOF selections.
That's the part that Repoz quoted. I clicked on the article earlier but didn't read much of it. I'm burnt out this offseason for various reasons. The offthefield stuff never was my favorite part of the game anyways.
   26. Cowboy Popup Posted: December 26, 2007 at 06:12 PM (#2653698)
I respect Tracy for showing in that thread when he knew how hostile of an evironment that was going to be.

That being said, here are some things I learned about Vince Coleman on BBref.com thanks to this thread. He scored 100 runs only twice in his career. He only really played five-seven full seasons, depending on what you define as a full season. 107 SB and 14 CS is just out of this world sick, holy cow. He was pretty much a full time leftfielder, so no bonus points for center at all. He once only had 28 (!) RBIs in a full season. He hit above .280 three times, only once in a 500 AB season. He struck out an awful lot for a guy with no power.

I had a much higher opinion of Coleman before I looked at the numbers.
   27. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 26, 2007 at 06:13 PM (#2653700)
BTW, giving us a big FU at the expense of Raines' candidacy would be pretty juvenile.

Two things: 1) not necessarily what Harv was saying. It's not a matter of vote for Raines or say he's Coleman. A person can think he's better than Coleman but still far short of Hall-worthy. I thought post #4 theorized that he said his position in a way to stir things up, not that he took a position in order to stir things up.


That's exactly what I thought both men were saying, so I still stand by post, Chris. It's one thing to say that Raines doesn't belong in the HOF, but it's another thing to say Coleman was better than Rock at his peak. That's just irresponsible.
   28. Kyle S Posted: December 26, 2007 at 07:55 PM (#2653795)
I object to the tone employed by many posters here in responding to Tracy's hall of fame selections. Calling someone names serves no purpose except a cathartic one, and is completely counterproductive toward persuading them to change their mind. If you disagree with him, why not just say so in a civil manner and then support your case with evidence, as Rich did in the quoted portion above?

For my part, Mr. Ringolsby, I applaud your choices of Blyleven, Gossage, and Trammell for your Hall of Fame ballot, and respectfully encourage you to reconsider Tim Raines. Others more eloquent than myself can make his case well. I'd like to give you and the BBWAA the benefit of the doubt regarding the addition of the internet BBWAA members this year, but circumstantial evidence makes the exclusion of just Rob and Keith very fishy. I urge you to carefully re-consider them (as well as your justification for excluding them this time) next year.
   29. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: December 26, 2007 at 08:18 PM (#2653819)
That said, lots of those Spink awards were given out largely on a basis of seniority and and not due to any discernable merit. Most of them are eminently worthy of the honor, but it's a long leap between Leonard Koppett and Murray Chass. I also note some obvious omissions, such as Thomas Boswell, who for all his faults has certainly been one of the game's premier writers for the past 30 years. That award of Ringolsby's in and of itself means very little.

Fair enough. Looking at the list, it seems it's a combination of merit and longevity. Boswell really came into his own in the early 1980s. (From memory, Maury's link of BBWAA members had Boswell show up later than I would guess, not getting his membership until around then). Boswell will get his in the next decade.

That's undeniable. Equating Raines to Coleman deserves zero respect.

Two things:

1) there's a differnce in whether or not you deny something or if it's deniable.

2) There's a huge difference between disdaining an opinion and disdaining the person who has the opinion. Everyone - without exception - has some opinions that are absurd and nusto. That doesn't mean all people ought to be scorned.
   30. Shooty is obsessed with the latest hoodie Posted: December 26, 2007 at 08:32 PM (#2653834)
2) There's a huge difference between disdaining an opinion and disdaining the person who has the opinion. Everyone - without exception - has some opinions that are absurd and nusto. That doesn't mean all people ought to be scorned.

I love that tv show The Lost World. It's got dinosaurs and ghosts and lizard people and cleavage and volcanoes and pirates. Goddam I love that show!
   31. GGC for Sale Posted: December 26, 2007 at 08:44 PM (#2653845)
If I hated everyone that I ever disagreed with here, I'd hate all of you. If I loved everyone that I ever agreed with here, I'd love all of you.
   32. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: December 26, 2007 at 08:53 PM (#2653851)
Jeez, get a room.
   33. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: December 26, 2007 at 08:57 PM (#2653856)
What about 110 > 90 don't you people understand?!?!???
   34. JRVJ (formerly Delta Socrates) Posted: December 26, 2007 at 09:03 PM (#2653867)
Neyer just wrote about Ringolsby's interview (personally, I don't think Neyer should have commented on Ringoslby's interview, due to their recent brushfire, but that's just me)

http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3168797&name=Neyer_Rob

In any case, anyone who actually looks at the careers of Coleman and Raines HAS to realize that Ringoslby either (a) Had a brain cramp; or (b) Got confused.

Ultimately, it was an interview, not a court deposition, so I'll give the man the benefit of doubt since he picked Blyleven, Gossage and Trammell for the HoF.
   35. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: December 26, 2007 at 09:45 PM (#2653896)
In any case, anyone who actually looks at the careers of Coleman and Raines HAS to realize that Ringoslby either (a) Had a brain cramp; or (b) Got confused.

That's what I was trying to say above. I don't think TR was trying to provoke anyone and I doubt he seriously believes that Raines and Coleman are similar in any way. I think the comparison just popped into his head and he tossed it out there without much thought.
   36. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 26, 2007 at 09:59 PM (#2653912)
"I don't think TR was trying to provoke anyone and I doubt he seriously believes that Raines and Coleman are similar in any way. I think the comparison just popped into his head and he tossed it out there without much thought."

I kind of took it that way, too. The acid test will be whether he repeats it in the future...
   37. JRVJ (formerly Delta Socrates) Posted: December 26, 2007 at 10:04 PM (#2653923)
Yeargh/Vlad,

Do you think the negative reaction to Ringolsby's Raines/Coleman mess-up is a case of BTF posters getting back at him?

I'm pretty sure it is, which is sad, because I see a lot of benefit in writers participaing in forums such as these, and I really don't get why some people get-off on dissing writers for a mess-up that apparently was cleared up between Ringolsby, Neyer and Law (one of the first things I learned as I was moving from my teens to adulthood was to avoid, as much as possible, becoming "enemies" with people out of solidarity with someone else who had the original misunderstanding with that person).
   38. Justin T drives a crooked hoss Posted: December 26, 2007 at 10:09 PM (#2653929)
I think you guys are in such disbelief that someone could legitimately believe such a thing that you are rationalizing it for Ringolsby. He says in the quote that Raines was one of the biggest debates for him, indicating he had given it a good deal of thought. If we're gonna credit him for deducing that Blyleven and Trammell belong, then we should assume he has put in a similar amount of thought on the Raines question.

After all, he specifically cited their best five years, not some vague statement like "Vince Coleman did a lot of things just as well as Raines, and he's not a HOFer."
   39. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: December 26, 2007 at 10:11 PM (#2653933)
Do you think the negative reaction to Ringolsby's Raines/Coleman mess-up is a case of BTF posters getting back at him?

Maybe, although it's such a facially stupid comment that it's easy to understand why people would react in the way that they have, esp. in light of the fact that Raines already seems so underappreciated. But I'm sure TR's earlier comments played a role.

I don't have a ton of sympathy for TR because he was pretty obnoxious in that other thread. I'd love to have more writers participate, but I see no reason to bend over backwards to accomodate them just because they're public figures. If a writer joins in and makes an inflammatory or stupid comment he's going to get called on it. That's the nature of the beast.
   40. JJ1986 Posted: December 26, 2007 at 10:14 PM (#2653935)
Didn't Ringolsby not vote for Wade Boggs because he didn't have enough power for a corner guy? It makes perfect sense that he'd be against Raines,
   41. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 26, 2007 at 10:22 PM (#2653946)
"Do you think the negative reaction to Ringolsby's Raines/Coleman mess-up is a case of BTF posters getting back at him?"

It's a strange/dumb enough assertion that I think just about anybody would get some negative attention for forwarding it in an (apparently) serious fashion. Some people here might have retributive desires toward Ringolsby (which would be kind of sad), but if they do, I don't think this thread is a good example of such.

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