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Wednesday, September 12, 2012

The Bill James Online Mailbag

Bill James: Alive and well and living in the past.

Hey Bill, the Big Hurt, Frank Thomas, is by all measures worthy of the Hall of Fame. For a while I thought he might get lost in the depth of the next few ballots and the building backlog of qualified candidates. But, PED use appears to have permeated the debate as an overriding theme. Due to that voter focus, his Mitchell report participation and general advocation against PED use, nearly unique amongst players, may be taken as a strong positive. Do you think he will be elected on the first ballot?

Well, he’s probably a Hall of Fame player and I would suspect he will be elected on the first ballot, most likely.    The Hall of Fame is generally not kind to slow-moving sluggers.  Players of that kind do much better in MVP voting than in Hall of Fame voting.  But I would think he is above the line, and I don’t really see that the PED stuff has anything to do with it.

Bill, I know you like Jethro Tull but Aqualung over anything The Beatles have done ??? Best rock song of all time for me has to be I can see for miles by The Who.

But here’s a poke at you, you’re gonna choke on it, too.  How about Gimme Three Steps, Lynard Skynyrd?    Greatest song ever to play with a base stealer on first base. ..

Repoz Posted: September 12, 2012 at 06:20 AM | 68 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: history, hof

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   1. Spectral Posted: September 12, 2012 at 06:55 AM (#4233412)
I can't really fathom any reasonable person keeping Frank Thomas out of the Hall.
   2. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: September 12, 2012 at 07:16 AM (#4233414)
He should go in wearing an A's cap.
   3. OsunaSakata Posted: September 12, 2012 at 07:17 AM (#4233415)
This Hey Bill! has a great picture of Johnny Bench appearing in the Mission: Impossible television series.
   4. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: September 12, 2012 at 07:35 AM (#4233421)
Lynyrd Skynyrd sucks.
   5. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: September 12, 2012 at 07:41 AM (#4233424)
Lynyrd Skynyrd sucks.

Is that Freedom Rock? Well turn it up!
   6. ThisElevatorIsDrivingMeUpTheWall Posted: September 12, 2012 at 07:43 AM (#4233425)
Clearly, You Can't Catch Me by Chuck Berry would be a better base stealing song.
   7. RMc's desperate, often sordid world Posted: September 12, 2012 at 07:58 AM (#4233431)
Aqualung over anything The Beatles have done

This man is dead to me.
   8. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: September 12, 2012 at 08:00 AM (#4233434)

With Adam Dunn having a nice comeback season (even with a .205 average), I'm wondering if there's anyone that's TRULY similar to him statistically in baseball history. There are certainly plenty of his TYPE, but his stats seem so extreme. Very high HR's, BB, and K's, very low batting average, very little defensive value. His "through current age comp" list on BB-ref (Reggie Jackson, Killebrew, Colavito, Canseco, Thome are the top 5) doesn't seem very satisfying, as everyone has a significantly higher batting average than Dunn's .240 mark. Maybe there's another way to ask it.....is Dunn the most effective career .240 player ever? Thanks.

Asked by: markomachine


Answered: 9/10/2012

I'm still wondering why I get all these damned Adam Dunn questions.


this is great
   9. SOLockwood Posted: September 12, 2012 at 08:17 AM (#4233443)
Someone asked about Gehrig vs Ruth for the MVP in 1927. I'm surprised that James did not mention the fact that Ruth was not eligible for the award since he had already won it in 1923. The rules for the League Award (the MVP of the time) did not allow a previous winner to win it again.
   10. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 12, 2012 at 08:28 AM (#4233450)
I can't really fathom any reasonable person keeping Frank Thomas out of the Hall.


I couldn't fathom any reasonable voter keeping Rickey out, either, but there are still guys who didn't vote for him. Not everyone in the BBWAA is reasonable.
   11. Walt Davis Posted: September 12, 2012 at 08:40 AM (#4233461)
Well, I don't get Adam Dunn questions all the time.

WAR, 5000+ PA, BA<=250

Nettles 63
Da Evans 55
Wynn 53
Tenace 44
Cameron 43
Porter 38
Belanger 38
Sundberg 37
Donie Bush 37
McAuliffe 34
Blair 34

Dunn is 43rd on the list with a mere 14 WAR, surprisingly even less than Kingman. Heck, Carlos Pena smokes him with 23 WAR.

Fair enough, that includes silly stuff like defense and positional adjustments. By WAR batting he's 4th, 84 runs behind Wynn in just 800 PA. He's also 52 runs behind Tenace with 1600 MORE PA. He's 23 behind Evans but Evans has 3000 more PA so Dunn would have a chance to catch him. :-)

So we have to go with Tenace on rate hitting, Wynn on peak/career hitting and I'm sticking with Wynn overall because he was about half Dunn's size.

Of course those guys did other silly things to disqualify themselves like not strike every time Marty Brenneman sneezed. Dunn is the greatest hitter in history to hit less than 250 and strike out 2000 times. There's a reason for that.
   12. donlock Posted: September 12, 2012 at 10:22 AM (#4233579)
Feel obligated to always ask this question:
And we know that Frank Thomas was PED free because..?

He said so.

Oh.
   13. Clemenza Posted: September 12, 2012 at 10:23 AM (#4233580)
Lynyrd Skynyrd played in Milwaukee last week for the annual Harley Davidson party and the guy that was promoting the event on the local news referred to LS as "he". As in , "He will be playing on Saturday...". I was surprised Molly Hatchet wasn't the opener. She rocks.

   14. cardsfanboy Posted: September 12, 2012 at 10:37 AM (#4233603)
Feel obligated to always ask this question:
And we know that Frank Thomas was PED free because..?

He said so.

Oh.


He actively campaigned for testing, that helps remove some of the suspicion off of him.
   15. SoSH U at work Posted: September 12, 2012 at 10:45 AM (#4233615)
He actively campaigned for testing, that helps remove some of the suspicion off of him.


Yeah, while it doesn't prove he was clean, it's reason to look at him differently. While most everyone else in his profession was mum on the subject, he was out front clamoring for baseball to take action. It's more than possible that it was a clever ruse, but even if it was, good for Frank.

Now, if you want to ask why Griff and Maddux and others get assumed clean while similar guys have varying levels of suspicion tossed their way, that's perfectly fair. But Frank bought himself a little bit of good will.
   16. Lassus Posted: September 12, 2012 at 10:50 AM (#4233623)
12 - Doubting Thomas seems a pure ORLY? internet black-helicopter stance.

(Yes, I saw what I did there.)
   17. Mike Webber Posted: September 12, 2012 at 10:53 AM (#4233628)
Lynyrd Skynyrd played in Milwaukee last week for the annual Harley Davidson party and the guy that was promoting the event on the local news referred to LS as "he". As in , "He will be playing on Saturday...". I was surprised Molly Hatchet wasn't the opener. She rocks.

The band is just fantastic,
that is really what I think.
Oh by the way, which one's Lynard?
   18. AROM Posted: September 12, 2012 at 10:55 AM (#4233629)
Now, if you want to ask why Griff and Maddux and others get assumed clean while similar guys have varying levels of suspicion tossed their way, that's perfectly fair. But Frank bought himself a little bit of good will.


Maddux and Glavine have to be suspicious. Anybody who paid attention could read between the cut scenes back when that "chicks dig the longball" commercial came out.
   19. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: September 12, 2012 at 11:39 AM (#4233696)
I do like Jethro Tull but that's kind of silly. however not as silly as when Tull won the grammy for best metal band or metal performance or whatever it was over Metallica in the early 90s.
   20. The District Attorney Posted: September 12, 2012 at 11:55 AM (#4233723)
It was "hard rock/heavy metal", so they were eligible, I suppose.

However, ...And Justice for All was a great, classic album (unless you're a big fan of bass) and Mandolin Jester Huzzah! was not.

Of course, we're talking about a music award that has had the 1985 Chicago Bears Shufflin' Crew as a nominee.
   21. BDC Posted: September 12, 2012 at 12:13 PM (#4233742)
Here's some comps for Dunn, trying to get reasonably near him in terms of face-value rate stats. Arranged alphabetically because why not :)

BA  SLG  OBP    PA        Pos
Jack Cust           .242 .439 .374  2581       
*D79
Darren Daulton      .245 .427 .357  4340    
*2/93D7
Adam Dunn           .241 .501 .371  7134      
*73D9
Darrell Evans       .248 .431 .361 10737    
*53D/76
Bob Hamelin         .246 .464 .352  1508        
*D3
Chris Iannetta      .236 .431 .356  1930     
*2/35D
Howard Johnson      .249 .446 .340  5715 
*56/789D43
Don Mincher         .249 .450 .348  4725      
*3/97
Carlos Pena         .234 .472 .349  5446      
*3/D7
Ken Phelps          .239 .480 .374  2287      
*D3/9
Gary Roenicke       .247 .434 .351  3204   
*798/D35
Gene Tenace         .241 .429 .388  5527  
*23/59D47
Mickey Tettleton    .241 .449 .369  5745    
*2D39/7
Brad Wilkerson      .247 .440 .350  3753     7389
/D
Jim Wynn            .250 .436 .366  8011   
*897/D65 


Ken Phelps is not only the closest in the three major rate stats, but was a beast in the minor leagues for too long, shortening his career (not that he would have been as good as Dunn as young as Dunn). Though I suppose Bill James, who publicized Phelps's plight widely, really would be tired of talking about players like that. It's interesting how many of the list are catchers – if you can catch some and hit some HRs, nobody's greatly concerned about your batting average.
   22. Randy Jones Posted: September 12, 2012 at 12:19 PM (#4233749)
He actively campaigned for testing, that helps remove some of the suspicion off of him.


Yeah, while it doesn't prove he was clean, it's reason to look at him differently. While most everyone else in his profession was mum on the subject, he was out front clamoring for baseball to take action. It's more than possible that it was a clever ruse, but even if it was, good for Frank.

Now, if you want to ask why Griff and Maddux and others get assumed clean while similar guys have varying levels of suspicion tossed their way, that's perfectly fair. But Frank bought himself a little bit of good will.


On the other hand, he also played football in the SEC in the 80's.

Frank Thomas is one of my favorite players ever, he should absolutely be voted into the HoF as soon as he is eligible. However, the idea that he should be above suspicion of PED use is just silly.
   23. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: September 12, 2012 at 12:36 PM (#4233764)
Lynyrd Skynyrd played in Milwaukee last week for the annual Harley Davidson party and the guy that was promoting the event on the local news referred to LS as "he". As in , "He will be playing on Saturday...". I was surprised Molly Hatchet wasn't the opener. She rocks.

But neither can hold a candle to Mr. Led Zeppelin.
   24. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: September 12, 2012 at 12:37 PM (#4233766)
However, ...And Justice for All was a great, classic album (unless you're a big fan of bass) and Mandolin Jester Huzzah! was not.


no doubt about it. I guess they didn't trust Newstead at the time.

Lars Ulrich did have a great remark though when they ultimately won a grammy for something a year or two later when he said, "I'd like to thank Jethro Tull for not putting out an album this year."
   25. Lassus Posted: September 12, 2012 at 12:47 PM (#4233778)
How about Gimme Three Steps, Lynard Skynyrd?

This song is why the bad of classic rock just stomps whatever good there might be into dust. Burn it all.
   26. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: September 12, 2012 at 12:59 PM (#4233795)
On the other hand, he also played football in the SEC in the 80's.


My personal absolutely-no-evidence theory is that Thomas saw a lot of PED use while he was at Auburn and was pressured on the subject himself (and maybe even gave in to the pressure) and had a very visceral reaction against it, which led to him being so outspoken on the subject.

Also, WAR, BA<=245, 50% of games at one of LF/RF/1B/DH:

Rk          Player WAR/pos   BA
1      Greg Vaughn    27.7 .242
2      Carlos Pena    23.1 .234
3    Tom Brunansky    19.0 .245
4     Dave Kingman    14.8 .236
5        Adam Dunn    14.0 .241
6     Nate Colbert    12.8 .243
7         Rob Deer    11.8 .220
8     Mike Epstein    10.8 .244
9         Jim King    10.0 .240 


Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 9/12/2012.
   27. Jay Z Posted: September 12, 2012 at 01:00 PM (#4233798)
Lynyrd Skynyrd played in Milwaukee last week for the annual Harley Davidson party and the guy that was promoting the event on the local news referred to LS as "he". As in , "He will be playing on Saturday...". I was surprised Molly Hatchet wasn't the opener. She rocks.


Molly Hatchet was never the same once their singer, Danny Joe Brown, left for his side project, Danny Joe Brown and the Danny Joe Brown Band.

Last In Line by Dio, which IS better than any Beatles song, should be played any time a pitcher is one out from a no-hiiter.
   28. Shrike Posted: September 12, 2012 at 01:47 PM (#4233868)
Last In Line by Dio, which IS better than any Beatles song, should be played any time a pitcher is one out from a no-hiiter.


I can't let this pass unchallenged. On what grounds do you hold this opinion?
   29. smileyy Posted: September 12, 2012 at 02:02 PM (#4233885)
Re: Thomas and Steroids:

I don't find it to be a weird or shady position to feel that he needs to take steroids to be the MVP-caliber player he would be without steroids in a clean league, while at the same time not wanting to take steroids and thus campaigning for testing.

Well, maybe shady in the sense that if he really felt that way, he should have been open about it.
   30. smileyy Posted: September 12, 2012 at 02:05 PM (#4233891)
Re: Jethro Tull / Metallica:

I'm amused that a hard rock / heavy metal band sought approval (i.e., valued an award) from an organization that clearly did not understand them. "Waah! The establishment didn't recognize us for being groundbreaking and transgressive!" Only a "punk" band could be more ironic in that regard. I suppose that could be seen as a bellweather for Metallica's later commercial opinions.
   31. smileyy Posted: September 12, 2012 at 02:07 PM (#4233893)
Re: Jethro Tull / Lynyrd Skynyrd / Molly Hatchet:

I haven't heard much from that Pink Floyd guy in a while either. Is he a recluse? Does anyone know if he's dead?
   32. just plain joe Posted: September 12, 2012 at 02:11 PM (#4233899)
I haven't heard much from that Pink Floyd guy in a while either. Is he a recluse? Does anyone know if he's dead


Kicking back, counting his money?
   33. jwb Posted: September 12, 2012 at 02:14 PM (#4233902)
B.D. Cri's list has Don Mincher on it. Mincher was traded for Mike Epstein, who is on F. McG's list. Interesting.
   34. bjhanke Posted: September 12, 2012 at 02:42 PM (#4233942)
If you don't like Southern rock, or C&W, which describes me, Lynyrd Skynyrd is by far the most listenable Southern Rock / C&W band (Johnny Cash and Willie Nelson are playing in a wider set of genres). Less whiny. Rocks harder. The Charlie Daniels Band (which actually has someone named Charlie Daniels in it) will probably think it ironic that I don't like Neil Young because his sound is so whiny that it sounds like C&W to me. It's enough of a bother that I even prefer, by much, CSN to CSN&Y.

I really like I Can See for Miles, but it was specifically written for the American audience, according to Pete. My favorite Who song (and I think they are the greatest rock band of all time) is Anyway, Anyhow, Anywhere, but that's due a lot to the fact that I heard that single in 1965, and was immediately hooked. In other words, it's the FIRST great song by my favorite band of all time. I will admit that I find it odd that anyone would pick Miles over My Generation, on icon value alone.

I have nothing coherent to say about Tull getting labeled as a metal band. I don't know that there's anything coherent for anyone to say about it.

As for Adam Dunn, I figured that the best comp would be an easy win for Rob Deer. But Deer actually hit for so LOW a batting average that he drops way down the Dunn comparison list. "Hit for too low an average to keep up with Adam Dunn" is one strange epitaph. - Brock Hanke
   35. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: September 12, 2012 at 02:52 PM (#4233961)
Now, if you want to ask why Griff and Maddux and others get assumed clean while similar guys have varying levels of suspicion tossed their way, that's perfectly fair. But Frank bought himself a little bit of good will.

Maddux and Glavine have to be suspicious. Anybody who paid attention could read between the cut scenes back when that "chicks dig the longball" commercial came out.


I can't believe that Vladimir Guerrero doesn't get accused of steroid use more often. He broke the moon!
   36. Downtown Bookie Posted: September 12, 2012 at 03:11 PM (#4233986)
Clearly, You Can't Catch Me by Chuck Berry would be a better base stealing song.


I'll nominate Catch Us If You Can by the Dave Clark Five; but I reserve the right to nominate another song later; after I've had some time to think it over.

Last In Line by Dio, which IS better than any Beatles song....


This was said as a joke, right?

DB
   37. Tom Nawrocki Posted: September 12, 2012 at 03:27 PM (#4234017)
On the other hand, Starlin Castro's theme music could be Jane's Addiction's "Been Caught Stealing."
   38. Jay Z Posted: September 12, 2012 at 04:21 PM (#4234078)
Last In Line by Dio, which IS better than any Beatles song, should be played any time a pitcher is one out from a no-hiiter.


I can't let this pass unchallenged. On what grounds do you hold this opinion?


Well, it's a subjective thing. I don't really have a favorite song, I don't think. That's just an example of a type of song - pomp metal, whatever - that was outside the Beatles' sweet spot. The Beatles wrote a bunch of good songs, performed them well, but they still had a certain niche and there are plenty of other types of songs that other bands did better. Stones had their style at which they were better than the Beatles. Beatles would not have made a good Led Zeppelin. Then there is jazz, big band, classical etc. The Beatles were great, but their work is still a genre and it doesn't have to be someone's favorite.

The one that gets me is the Pet Sounds crap. I accuse the Pet Sounds worshippers of loving the fact that the author went up his own bunghole and that's something they can relate to. Pet Sounds is a dead end to me.
   39. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: September 12, 2012 at 04:27 PM (#4234089)
On the other hand, Starlin Castro's theme music could be Jane's Addiction's "Been Caught Stealing.


That's more of a Tim Raines song: "Been caught stealing, once, when I was 5."

EDIT: Carlos Beltran and Brady Anderson both had 31 SB, 1 CS years. So maybe the song is for one of them.
   40. SandyRiver Posted: September 12, 2012 at 04:42 PM (#4234116)
Feel obligated to always ask this question:
And we know that Frank Thomas was PED free because..?

He said so.

Oh.


Of course we don't KNOW that, and I've not seen anyone here claim otherwise. All we can do is weigh the available evidence. (The alternative is "guilty until proven innocent", which in this case equals "guilty", as it would be impossible to prove the negative.)
   41. BDC Posted: September 12, 2012 at 04:57 PM (#4234136)
The Beatles wrote a bunch of good songs, performed them well, but they still had a certain niche and there are plenty of other types of songs that other bands did better

I'd basically agree with you (there's a vast range of music that the Beatles couldn't even attempt to do, obviously). But within the pop of their era, they are marked by a great range. They did pop songs that sound a little country ("I'll Cry Instead") and a little swingy ("Can't Buy Me Love") and a little doo-wop-like ("Oh Darling") and they did novelty songs and ballads and show-tune-like stuff, weird ethereal songs and folk songs ("The Fool on the Hill") and guitar-heavy rock songs and God knows what all. You can find a whole bunch of other contemporary acts, from the Turtles to the Animals, that did one or two songs as well in a single mode or maybe one or two of the modes the Beatles used – in fact with a little time one could make a compilation of "Beatles-like" stuff, each of whose songs the Beatles would have been proud to acknowledge, and would fit in with their work (you can start with "I'm a Believer," I'll bet McCartney wishes he'd written that). But it remains that the Beatles wrote in all those modes, and very few others could do so. I would point to the Kinks and the Rolling Stones as two groups with a respectable range and very impressive work ("Sunny Afternoon" and "As Tears Go By" would be on my "Beatles-like" compilation, both as good as any Beatles song), but it still looks narrow alongside the Beatles'.

I do tend to agree with you on Pet Sounds :)
   42. vortex of dissipation Posted: September 12, 2012 at 05:25 PM (#4234162)
Dustin Ackley uses Skynyrd's "Simple Man" as his at-bat music.
   43. Eddo Posted: September 12, 2012 at 06:16 PM (#4234202)
My personal absolutely-no-evidence theory is that Thomas saw a lot of PED use while he was at Auburn and was pressured on the subject himself (and maybe even gave in to the pressure) and had a very visceral reaction against it, which led to him being so outspoken on the subject.

I could easily see this being the case.

What are the possibilities here? We do know that Thomas spoke up in favor of steroid testing as early as the mid-1990s (1995, I believe). But did he take steroids? And if so, what consequences should that have? The possibilities are...

1. Thomas never took steroids;
2. Thomas took steroids while in college, but stopped;
3. Thomas took steroids while in MLB, but stopped prior to advocating for testing;
4. Thomas took steroids through his whole MLB career, and his testing advocacy was a ruse.

I think everyone would agree that Thomas is a no-doubt Hall of Famer in case #1. The only thing you could ding (or, conversely, praise) him for would be not aggressively naming names of users.

Case #2 should have no bearing on his HOF case, rationally, as he never cheated while in MLB. However, some hypothetically zealous zero-tolerance people (no one specific comes to mind) might still say this keeps him out.

Zero-tolerance people shouldn't really see any difference between cases #3 and #4, as Thomas would have cheated, regardless of how long he did so. But in #3 (and #2), wouldn't it have been interesting if he had openly admitted to using, and how, as someone who had experienced steroids, he felt they should be addressed? Would that have made people sit up and take notice earlier than they did (after Bonds broke the two most hallowed records)?
   44. GGC don't think it can get longer than a novella Posted: September 12, 2012 at 08:12 PM (#4234288)
My favorite Skynyrd song is actually borrowed from JJ Cale. "Call Me The Breeze" sounds like swing crashing into southern boogie.
   45. Lassus Posted: September 12, 2012 at 08:21 PM (#4234293)
Let's ask Repoz what he thinks.
   46. John DiFool2 Posted: September 12, 2012 at 08:51 PM (#4234314)
Does anyone know if he's dead?


No no no no, he's on the outside, looking in.
   47. Everybody Loves Tyrus Raymond Posted: September 13, 2012 at 01:48 AM (#4234463)
"Sunny Afternoon" and "As Tears Go By" would be on my "Beatles-like" compilation, both as good as any Beatles song


I respect your point, but the Beatles had at least several songs better than either.

And those are both very good songs.

In My Life, Strawberry Fields Forever, A Day in the Life, I Want to Hold Your Hand ... that's another league.
   48. toratoratora Posted: September 13, 2012 at 01:51 AM (#4234464)
On the other hand, Starlin Castro's theme music could be Jane's Addiction's "Been Caught Stealing.

Totally tangenting, I would love to here someone like Tony Bennett do a real slow big band version of the song, just kinda croon it out. I think it would rock, especially the Da-da-dada, dadada part. I can so see Sinatra belting that out, maybe with a little leg kick to boot.
There's a couple songs out there I'd like to see radically different versions of. It's kinda fun to picture some strange combinations. Think how fun it would be to hear a speed metal version of The Devil Went Down to Georgia with guitars taking the dueling fiddle roles.. Even if it's an ugly effort, it would still be a blast to hear a good try at it
   49. DFA Posted: September 13, 2012 at 02:12 AM (#4234470)
On the other hand, Starlin Castro's theme music could be Jane's Addiction's "Been Caught Stealing."


Please tell me this is Mike Leake's at bat music!
   50. baerga1 Posted: September 13, 2012 at 02:43 AM (#4234472)
If you don't like Southern rock, or C&W, which describes me, Lynyrd Skynyrd is by far the most listenable Southern Rock / C&W band


Allman Brothers?
   51. PreservedFish Posted: September 13, 2012 at 02:59 AM (#4234474)
The one that gets me is the Pet Sounds crap. I accuse the Pet Sounds worshippers of loving the fact that the author went up his own bunghole and that's something they can relate to. Pet Sounds is a dead end to me.


Really? To me Pet Sounds is beautiful and weird and ambitious and wonderful.
   52. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: September 13, 2012 at 03:44 AM (#4234477)
The one that gets me is the Pet Sounds crap. I accuse the Pet Sounds worshippers of loving the fact that the author went up his own bunghole and that's something they can relate to. Pet Sounds is a dead end to me.
That opinion is worse than Angels baseball.
   53. Greg K Posted: September 13, 2012 at 04:18 AM (#4234480)
Totally tangenting, I would love to here someone like Tony Bennett do a real slow big band version of the song, just kinda croon it out. I think it would rock, especially the Da-da-dada, dadada part. I can so see Sinatra belting that out, maybe with a little leg kick to boot.
There's a couple songs out there I'd like to see radically different versions of. It's kinda fun to picture some strange combinations. Think how fun it would be to hear a speed metal version of The Devil Went Down to Georgia with guitars taking the dueling fiddle roles.. Even if it's an ugly effort, it would still be a blast to hear a good try at it

There is this.
   54. bjhanke Posted: September 13, 2012 at 05:23 AM (#4234485)
RE: Baerga (#50) - No, not the Allman Brothers. Lynyrd Skynyrd. The Allman Brothers sound, to me, very much Southern Rock with a country influence, which is just not my taste. Skynyrd sounds to me like rocked-out Western music, with little country influence. (No, I have no way to explain why I can tell the difference between Western and Country, but I generally can, and I prefer Western. It may have come from spending 3 years in Nashville, at Vanderbilt.) Actually, I prefer Nick Cave's versions of delta blues / C&W, but then, I really really like Nick Cave. I also suspect that C&W fans don't think of him as a C&W artist at all. Maybe a weird blues artist, but probably not C&W.

Don Malcolm, who really knows music, had to walk me through a certain amount of Brian Wilson's Pet Sounds-style stuff before I got my footing, but I now like it very very much. The more I know about it, the better it sounds. I even ended up going to the Smile concert tour stop in STL, and loved every minute. Usually, music that dense and complex is too much for my ears; I'm a bit tone deaf. But, as I said, the more Brian Wilson I listen to, the better it gets. But generally, the more a band sounds like The Who, the more likely it is that I'm going to like them. - Brock
   55. Repoz Posted: September 13, 2012 at 06:10 AM (#4234486)
In My Life, Strawberry Fields Forever, A Day in the Life, I Want to Hold Your Hand

Of course they are great. They're mostly Lennon songs including the non-Ob-La-Dickcheese part of A Day in the Life.
   56. depletion Posted: September 13, 2012 at 10:13 AM (#4234597)
Dustin Ackley uses Skynyrd's "Simple Man" as his at-bat music.

I don't care for Skynyrd a whole lot, but I really, really like this song.
   57. Loren F. Posted: September 13, 2012 at 10:29 AM (#4234622)
I thought Townsend once claimed that "I Can See For Miles" was his personal favorite Who song. I think it's good, but "Substitute" is definitely my favorite Who song.
   58. bjhanke Posted: September 13, 2012 at 12:09 PM (#4234781)
Pete Townsend finds it amusing, and always has, that rock commentators want early band history stories. So he has, by his own admission, lied repeatedly about things like this. The version I got was that he saw that Miles would play very well to an American audience, and sort of kept it in his back pocket until he needed a hit to help sell an album. Substitute is very good and very Who-like, especially as a song about class warfare. If that's your favorite Who song, you understand the band. - Brock
   59. GGC don't think it can get longer than a novella Posted: September 13, 2012 at 08:24 PM (#4235351)
Totally tangenting, I would love to here someone like Tony Bennett do a real slow big band version of the song, just kinda croon it out. I think it would rock, especially the Da-da-dada, dadada part. I can so see Sinatra belting that out, maybe with a little leg kick to boot.
There's a couple songs out there I'd like to see radically different versions of. It's kinda fun to picture some strange combinations. Think how fun it would be to hear a speed metal version of The Devil Went Down to Georgia with guitars taking the dueling fiddle roles.. Even if it's an ugly effort, it would still be a blast to hear a good try at it


I wanted to hear Boy era U2's take on Molly Hatchet's "Flirtin' With Disaster."
   60. The Mighty Quintana Posted: September 13, 2012 at 09:01 PM (#4235369)
Ryan Klesko also used "Simple Man" in Atlanta during the late-90's. Needless to say, it went over pretty well there.
   61. jack the seal clubber (on the sidelines of life) Posted: September 13, 2012 at 09:15 PM (#4235373)
The three best Skynyrd songs

Workin' for MCA
Sweet Home
Things Goin On

honorable mention
Gimme Back My Bullets
Was I Right or Wrong

If you grew up in the South in the 1970s there is very little chance you did not like them
   62. Morty Causa Posted: September 13, 2012 at 09:17 PM (#4235375)
41:

Yes, no pop group did the range of materials they did, musically and vocally. Moreover, they so assimilated their influences (R&B, Swing, Tin Pan Alley from one confluence; Country, Rockabilly, English stage and vaudeville from another) that they seem the least derivative of the great groups, and most dissimilar from everyone else. Even when The Beatles, or, later, Lennon on his own, did something like Yer Blues, it was rock/blues, but it was very different from the Stones or Zeppelin, etc. That's what they were such a shock. It was, like, where the hell does this come from. They took Rock 'N' Roll and pop in general to another level, more so even than Elvis. You could tell where Elvis came from. In a way, The Beatles were truly aliens. For the historian it makes them hard to categorize to group with fellow peers. They're unique.
   63. steM oG steL Posted: September 14, 2012 at 01:25 AM (#4235455)
Think how fun it would be to hear a speed metal version of The Devil Went Down to Georgia with guitars taking the dueling fiddle roles..

Steve Ouimette - Devil Went Down to Georgia
   64. bjhanke Posted: September 15, 2012 at 03:24 AM (#4236396)
I'd go:

Gimme Three Steps
Simple Man
Gimme Back My Bullets

which is to say that I like Skynyd at their hardest, which, given my tastes, is as it should be.
   65. bobm Posted: September 15, 2012 at 11:47 AM (#4236512)
[21] Here's some comps for Dunn, trying to get reasonably near him in terms of face-value rate stats.

From B-R PI:

Spanning Multiple Seasons or entire Careers, From 1901 to 2012, (requiring batting_avg<=.250 and slugging_perc>=.500), sorted by greatest Plate Appearances

                                          
Rk             Player   PA   BA   SLG   AB
1           Adam Dunn 7134 .241  .501 5862
2       Wilin Rosario  414 .249  .514  385
3         Dave Staton  122 .213  .509  108
4        Dixie Howell   79 .243  .500   74
5           Ken Tatum   51 .244  .533   45
6         Mack Hillis   39 .243  .541   37
7         Dusty Allen   32 .250  .536   28
8     Bubba Carpenter   31 .222  .556   27
9      Billy Milligan   28 .250  .500   24
10      Amaury Garcia   27 .250  .583   24
11        Ben Shelton   27 .250  .542   24
12     John Romonosky   27 .231  .500   26
13          Bob Adams   24 .250  .542   24
14      Bill Connelly   22 .211  .526   19
15        Felipe Lira   21 .211  .526   19
16         Fred Green   18 .176  .529   17
17       Brian McCall   16 .200  .600   15
18   Francisco Santos   15 .200  .533   15
19      Ron Blackburn   13 .250  .667   12
20        Steven Hill   12 .250  .583   12
21           Don Rose   12 .200  .500   10
22    Mark Saccomanno   11 .200  .600   10
23     Andy Cannizaro   10 .222  .556    9
24      Lance Clemons   10 .250  .875    8
25         Earl Jones   10 .200  .600   10
Rk             Player   PA   BA   SLG   AB
26     Gustavo Chacin    9 .125  .500    8
27      Dixie Upright    9 .250  .625    8
28       Guy Morrison    9 .125  .500    8
29   Clay Van Alstyne    9 .250  .625    8
30         Ray Sadler    8 .250  .625    8
31    Howard McGraner    8 .250  .500    8
32     Eddy Rodriguez    7 .200  .800    5
33      Dave Matranga    6 .167  .667    6
34        Jeff Tabaka    6 .250  .500    4
35        Gregg Olson    5 .250 1.000    4
36        Sam Gentile    5 .250  .500    4
37        Ollie Voigt    5 .250  .750    4
38       Joel Peralta    4 .250  .500    4
39        J.C. Romero    4 .250  .500    4
40    Tyler Thornburg    4 .250  .500    4
41      Jeff Fulchino    4 .250  .500    4
42        Mike Parisi    4 .250  .500    4
43     Lee Guetterman    4 .250  .500    4
44       Alberto Lois    4 .250  .750    4
45        Doug Clarey    4 .250 1.000    4
46        Jim Dunegan    4 .250  .500    4
47       Don Williams    4 .250  .750    4
48        Ted Pawelek    4 .250  .500    4
49       Tom Sullivan    4 .250 1.000    4
50       Bill Fincher    4 .250  .500    4
Rk             Player   PA   BA   SLG   AB
51       Fletcher Low    4 .250  .750    4
52        Bob Dresser    4 .250  .500    4
   66. bobm Posted: September 15, 2012 at 11:50 AM (#4236514)
Spanning Multiple Seasons or entire Careers, From 1901 to 2012, (requiring At least 5000 plate appearances), sorted by greatest Isolated Slugging %

Seasons/Careers found: 833.

                                        
Rk               Player  ISO    PA    AB
1             Babe Ruth .348 10620  8399
2          Mark McGwire .325  7660  6187
3           Barry Bonds .309 12606  9847
4        Hank Greenberg .292  6097  5193
5            Lou Gehrig .292  9663  8001
6          Ted Williams .290  9788  7706
7         Albert Pujols .285  8034  6854
8           Jimmie Foxx .284  9676  8134
9             Jim Thome .278 10277  8390
10        Manny Ramirez .273  9774  8244
11         Albert Belle .269  6676  5853
12          Ralph Kiner .269  6256  5205
13       Carlos Delgado .266  8657  7283
14        Juan Gonzalez .266  7155  6556
15          David Ortiz .262  7649  6539
16       Alex Rodriguez .261 11083  9594
17           Sammy Sosa .261  9896  8813
18            Adam Dunn .260  7134  5862
19         Mike Schmidt .260 10062  8352
20        Mickey Mantle .259  9907  8102
21          Willie Mays .255 12496 10881
22          Ken Griffey .254 11304  9801
23         Frank Thomas .254 10075  8199
24         Joe DiMaggio .254  7673  6821
25     Harmon Killebrew .253  9833  8147
   67. bobm Posted: September 15, 2012 at 11:55 AM (#4236518)
Spanning Multiple Seasons or entire Careers, From 1901 to 2012, Active Players, (requiring At least 6000 plate appearances), sorted by greatest Isolated Slugging %

                                       
Rk              Player  ISO    PA    AB
1        Albert Pujols .285  8034  6854
2            Jim Thome .278 10277  8390
3        Manny Ramirez .273  9774  8244
4          David Ortiz .262  7649  6539
5       Alex Rodriguez .261 11083  9594
6            Adam Dunn .260  7134  5862
7        Lance Berkman .248  7519  6234
8        Mark Teixeira .248  6543  5652
9         Jason Giambi .242  8617  7016
10      Miguel Cabrera .241  6394  5591
11   Vladimir Guerrero .235  9059  8155
12     Alfonso Soriano .232  7462  6882
13        Andruw Jones .231  8654  7591
14       Chipper Jones .227 10561  8944
15         Todd Helton .225  9011  7565
16      Aramis Ramirez .217  7521  6800
17        Paul Konerko .216  8691  7657
18      Carlos Beltran .214  8290  7265
19         Scott Rolen .210  8480  7362
20          Carlos Lee .199  8715  7920
21       Adrian Beltre .196  8632  7904
22        Vernon Wells .196  6722  6189
23         Raul Ibanez .191  7456  6729
24        Torii Hunter .190  7820  7120
25         Aubrey Huff .186  6772  6093
Rk              Player  ISO    PA    AB
26         Bobby Abreu .185  9914  8337
27       Miguel Tejada .172  9038  8278
28       Jimmy Rollins .162  8172  7437
29       Alex Gonzalez .152  6098  5633
30       Carl Crawford .149  6059  5615
31        Johnny Damon .149 10917  9736
32     A.J. Pierzynski .145  6173  5744
33       Michael Young .143  7975  7333
34         Derek Jeter .135 11811 10477
35         Mark Kotsay .130  6920  6290
36       Rafael Furcal .122  7200  6442
37        Adam Kennedy .112  6055  5473
38     Placido Polanco .104  7471  6837
39       Ichiro Suzuki .096  8643  8010
40       Jason Kendall .090  8702  7627
41        Omar Vizquel .080 11993 10566
42         Juan Pierre .066  7913  7186
   68. BDC Posted: September 15, 2012 at 11:57 AM (#4236519)
Interesting table in #65, bobm. The sample sizes are tiny – heck, some of those guys are relief pitchers – but it's plausible to infer that guys with Dunn's profile have often washed out of the major leagues before they get anywhere near his chance. My cutoff in #21 was 2,000 PAs, in other words a respectable career; but it's the very tip of a slugging iceberg.

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