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So wait, you're saying that shopkeepers selling things on their shelves is bad for them? Someone finally came in and cleaned the bodega out of stale Fig Newtons, and they're mad about it?
Don't know if anyone else heard this story, but Wal-Mart uses some crazy data modeling to anticipate demand and allocate inventory in advance of natural disasters.
Now, now -- he lets his run free.
Free-range condiments are the only way to go.
If the shopkeeper complains because s/he's sold all of his or her inventory, then said shopkeeper is an imbecile.
I'm all for market forces setting prices, but I would advise business owners to avoid gouging (excessive price hikes that are purely driven by situations like this), as it probably isn't in their long-term interest. (Anecdotally I know many people who remember businesses that do this and refrain from patronizing them afterwards.)
Besides bread and D-cells, I did not get the sense that there were a run on any items or that people were preparing to be on their own for four+ days. The lack of space in a Manhattan apartment cannot be overemphasized. I picked up a few things Friday and Saturday, but I would have bought most of those items over the weekend anyway (pasta, milk, an incredible amount of corn-based snacks). I didn't see anyone with two shopping carts full of everything they could get their hands on. Ballparking, I think most people were spending between $20 and $40 to get them through the weekend. This is all anecdotally, of course, but that's what we're working with here.
It all seemed like perfectly normal behavior. Considering public transportation was shut down* it was safe to assume that little would be open Saturday evening and well into Sunday. Why wouldn't people want to stock up on a few items (liquor, Saturday's dinner)? I'm surprised as much was open as it was Saturday night (we didn't walk far, so we just open saw a bodega and the restaurant we ate in) and Sunday afternoon.
No one delivered the Sunday portion of the Times, though.
*I asked only rhetorically 100-200 posts ago whether the subway should have been closed and I see SBB is still not buying it, incredibly
That's exactly what I'm saying. You can't possibly think stores want customers to walk in, only to find an empty shelf where the thing they want to buy is supposed to be.
I would've assumed that ketchup would go bad otherwise.
Maybe he's like you and doesn't need fancy modern gadgets and doo dads like cellphones and televisions and cd recorders, consarn it.
Which explains why the CUSTOMER might be annoyed, but not the STORE. The STORE has done what it's supposed to do: sold its merchandise. Plus, in situations like this nobody (rational) blames the STORE for the run, so how does the shopkeeper suffer, exactly?
And what do you know?! This being the U.S., they had merely to stop by the nearest grocery or convenience store and get some of whatever it is they *would* prefer to eat in the event that the power went out for several days. (Like maybe the guy who had the decade-old Vlasics really wanted peanut butter, and vice versa.)
EDIT: And, in an shocking bonus, if the power *doesn't* go out (unlike, say, the roughly half-million people in Virginia who've been out for about 2 days and counting) -- they can still eat the food later!! Hooray!! And the store gets restocked!!
I have never seen it, but perhaps I just consume such massive quantities of ketchup that it never has the chance to go bad. I would never put it in the fridge...cold ketchup, yuk...
You've taken a survey?
Yeah sure the store sells all a bunch of product but we're also assuming that the store owner didn't have any extra costs involved in selling those items. Did it cost him extra to stay open? Did he stock up and did that cost extra? How much should risk on his part be factored into the cost? How much are his costs going to go up just to repair his own shop? So on and so on.
I still say most people can last 3 days with whatever the hell is in their house. And, again, the idea that even in a power outage they will have ZERO access to outside food seems fantastical.
- you would have no water - electric pumps for water pressure. you have no A/C or fans and it's probably VERY hot out and you don't want to be cooking - and if you have an electric stove you WON'T be cooking.
and you be shocked how much more water you drink when there is no AC and it is HOT out
oh yeah - and no bath/shower neither
- it's not real too fun to live with no flashlights (you need batteries) and your cell phone might not work. if your street is flooded out, you ain't drivin nowheres. if your street is blocked by live power lines/downed trees, you ain't goin nowheres. if a large section of your huge city got no power, the gas stations/food stores will be closed. you better hope you got an old fashioned radio/batteries for after your laptop/cell phone battery is dead if you wanna find out what is open where and when you might could be getting the electric back
trouble with you is you are spoilt and you've never run into trouble
after 1 day, you better have eaten all the food in the fridge because it will be spoilt after that
the next day, all the food in your freezer will be thawed and you'd better cook it because it's gonna rot
there are all KINDS of people don't have 3 days of food which don't need cooking or microwaving or refrigerating in the house
Is that a new type of heirloom pickle? Sounds trendy!
For a day or so during a crisis, I don't expect that customers will hold it against them. I'm not sure why you're ignoring the fact that this is a pretty normal occurrence under threat of a hurricane. The supermarket where I normally shop was sold out of bottled water. I'll still be returning there a few times this week to buy my staples.
I'd wonder what you think about #503, regarding the long-term business interest of short-term gouging. Although, I will say, many folks are too lazy to bear a grudge, which may even that all out. (I, on the other hand, have some grudges older than some of the people posting here.)
Well, set a price that qualifies as "gouging" when it comes to D batteries in Manahattan and then we'll be able to talk about how people will take it.
If you need batteries would you want the guy in front of you buying all 50 of them because he thinks he might need them during the storm and what the hell they don't cost all that much? Pricing is a way to force people to prioritize and ration their supplies. Thus allowing more people to get the goods they need.
- you would have no water - electric pumps for water pressure. you have no A/C or fans and it's probably VERY hot out and you don't want to be cooking - and if you have an electric stove you WON'T be cooking.
and you be shocked how much more water you drink when there is no AC and it is HOT out
oh yeah - and no bath/shower neither
- it's not real too fun to live with no flashlights (you need batteries) and your cell phone might not work. if your street is flooded out, you ain't drivin nowheres. if your street is blocked by live power lines/downed trees, you ain't goin nowheres. if a large section of your huge city got no power, the gas stations/food stores will be closed. you better hope you got an old fashioned radio/batteries for after your laptop/cell phone battery is dead if you wanna find out what is open where and when you might could be getting the electric back
trouble with you is you are spoilt and you've never run into trouble
after 1 day, you better have eaten all the food in the fridge because it will be spoilt after that
the next day, all the food in your freezer will be thawed and you'd better cook it because it's gonna rot
there are all KINDS of people don't have 3 days of food which don't need cooking or microwaving or refrigerating in the house
Ray lives in Manhattan not rural Arkansas. Most of this stuff isn't going to happen to his neighborhood.
It wasn't my argument, but I'm not sure it's in a shopkeeper's interest to sell out items unevenly like that. I'm open to being persuaded otherwise. Costs involved in reacting to that and replenishing the supply, unpredictability, opportunity costs when you don't have the item to sell to the next customer, etc. Seems like a hassle, and not like anyone's done you a favor.
If they were buying Mercedes two at a time, fine, but no store owner is going to be elated that some schmucks bought out his bread and batteries.
My TV & CD recorder, sir, are wood-burning.
But they still require remotes.
#### that, I'm a man. I don't plan things like that!
Which explains why the CUSTOMER might be annoyed, but not the STORE. The STORE has done what it's supposed to do: sold its merchandise. Plus, in situations like this nobody (rational) blames the STORE for the run, so how does the shopkeeper suffer, exactly?
Because he wouldn't haven't been able to auction off his Doritos and his D batteries without hearing it from a bunch of Communists.
FWIW my old GF and I used to sell discount camera film of every possible variety on the DC Mall during the Bicentennial Summer, when every other vendor was jacking up their prices. It hurt me so much that in 2011 dollars we were taking in over $1900 a day with no overhead but an umbrella, and on the 4th of July the gross was the equivalent of over $15,000. Price gouging is not only dirty pool during times of crisis, it's also dumber than a post if you ever want to retain your long term customers.
Suddenly I got inspired to design a ketchup heater for the people who just don't want to wait for their room-temperature condiments. I predict it will be this year's hottest Christmas gift.
Rationing is also a way to force people to ration their supplies. One pack of D batteries per person, no exceptions.
And if you need more than one pack?
Hell if I'm making pasta and there's an open jar of sauce in the fridge I just dump it straight on, let the hot pasta warm the sauce. Of course having said that, maybe you don't refrigerate opened jars of sauce either?
(To be clear, I do refrigerate ketchup and it's never occurred to me not to.)
i live in the 4th largest city in the country, not rural arkansas
when hurricane ike came through in 08, all of those things i listed in 515 were dead accurate.
i don't know why you think that manhattan losing power for more than a couple minutes/hours is physically impossible - or that broken glass from lots of shattered windows would make going around not difficult
floods happen, stores shut down because the drone who work in em can't afford ray's sky high rent and have to get there from somewheres else
saying - gee, what could happen and refusing to admit that anything COULD happen and refusing to plan for it is stupid - see all the people who refused to evacuate before katrina - see all the people who refused to leave the bolivar peninsula before ike
Peanut butter I don't refrigerate, but oddly some people do.
I was going to but then figured it might reflect poorly on me.
All of which are perfectly valid, reasonable reasons to raise prices, and I have no problem with any of that.
I'm talking about the nitwit down at the corner gas station who, in the midst of a 4-day power outage around here, began selling $2.50 bags of ice for $50. The rest of his merchandise stayed at regular price, so unless his acquisition costs multiplied by 2000% (doubtful), he was just taking advantage of the situation.
And understand: I don't think there should be rules preventing this. Hey, if people are willing to pay it, more power to the guy. But I certainly met plenty of people determined never to patronize the guy's station anymore. Enough to make a significant difference in his bottom line, assuming they all stuck with it? No clue. Just seems like a risk to me.
But price gouging during regular times is A-ok? Tons of industries price gouge.
FWIW my old GF and I used to sell discount camera film of every possible variety on the DC Mall during the Bicentennial Summer, when every other vendor was jacking up their prices. It hurt me so much that in 2011 dollars we were taking in over $1900 a day with no overhead but an umbrella, and on the 4th of July the gross was the equivalent of over $15,000.
And the people selling the product at "gouged" rates were doing brisk business as well.
Please don't pretend to know what I've gone through.
i live in the 4th largest city in the country, not rural arkansas
when hurricane ike came through in 08, all of those things i listed in 515 were dead accurate.
i don't know why you think that manhattan losing power for more than a couple minutes/hours is physically impossible - or that broken glass from lots of shattered windows would make going around not difficult
floods happen, stores shut down because the drone who work in em can't afford ray's sky high rent and have to get there from somewheres else
saying - gee, what could happen and refusing to admit that anything COULD happen and refusing to plan for it is stupid - see all the people who refused to evacuate before katrina - see all the people who refused to leave the bolivar peninsula before ike
The next time I see streets in Manhattan look like rivers will be the first time.
Yeah, but not if it requires batteries; then McCoy has no use for it.
And understand: I don't think there should be rules preventing this. Hey, if people are willing to pay it, more power to the guy. But I certainly met plenty of people determined never to patronize the guy's station anymore. Enough to make a significant difference in his bottom line, assuming they all stuck with it? No clue. Just seems like a risk to me.
Depends on the situation. I'm assuming the area was without power (4 days without power) and quite possibly the water was no longer potable. If so the gas station was probably using a gas generator to make ice (or he simply bought a ton of ice beforehand, which has cots and risks involved) and some sort of water purifier. If so all of those things cost a great deal. He might also only have a limited amount and again if he charged say 4 bucks for that ice most people would buy as much as they could regardless of need. So it is quite possible that once everything is factored in the 50 bucks while perhaps excessive (and perhaps not) it wasn't as excessive as 2.50 to 50.
I was on board with the whole "this storm was way over-hyped thing" (although I think some preparedness is important, and my complaint is that constantly overhyping storms leads people to be less prepared for the real issues in the long run). However, your dislike for ketchup cannot be defended.
If you can't plug it into the wall I see no point to it.
I live in a Chicago suburb, not rural ####### Arkansas, and almost everything Lisa listed happened to me when we had nasty thunderstorms and wind that knocked trees down into power lines.
Maybe. It's not your decision to make for other merchants, though.
What a shock -- politicians inducing runs and trying to score points by mandating low prices. What a bigger shock -- their amen corner coming out of the woodwork on BTF.
You go to another store.
But it seems odd to complain about a system that won't allow you to buy as much as you want when the system is designed to alleviate the problem of people buying as much as they want and leaving nothing for others.
No, he had power, and the water was potable. And he wasn't making it himself; it was normal commercially-bagged stuff. Less than 15 minutes away I found several stores with craploads of $1.99 bags, so this guy could've easily driven there himself, loaded his car, driven back, and sold them for $6-$8/bag at a healthy profit.
Again, if he can get the $50, more power to him, but I do think it can harm long-term customer relationships.
"If it hasn't happened yet, it's never going to happen." No offense, McCoy, but that's a tremendously foolish way to think about it.
And I'm sure 7 years ago someone said something similar in New Orleans.
#### happens and Mother Nature is a #####. Most of the time this stuff is, like Irene, overkill by the media but if you don't prepare for the disaster, you are monumentally screwed. I have a cousin who lives on the Outer Banks and it drives her nuts to be evacuated (which they are with some regularity) but her feeling is the inconvenience of an evacuation is better than the catastrophic effects of just saying "ah screw it, I'll ride it out."
You guys don't even know what you're ######## about anymore.
This. We had enough food in our house to survive for 72 hours, but on Friday evening we thought to ourselves that we really didn't want to have to eat pretzels, pop tarts and other old crap we had been avoiding eating since we made the regretful decision to purchase it in the first place and went to the store and bought stuff we would have preferred to eat. Because even if we weren't to be trapped in our apartment for three days by rivers of sewage flowing through the streets, the delivery options were sure to be limited for a day or so. And we bought bottled water because we will drink the water in any event and it seemed to be as good a time as any to stock up on water.* And even armed with that rationalization, we walked aimlessly around the supermarket like almost everybody else there thinking "Wait, why am I here again?" But like everybody else, we waited 20 minutes on line to buy water, doughnuts and alcohol. It may have been silly, but it made us feel prepared, and comfortable in the knowledge that if the apocalypse was coming, we would be facing it while both drunk and on a sugar high, which seemed a good way to do it.
If the apocalypse had come when I was single, I would have been one of those spending my last days subsisting on refrigerated ketchup. Of course, that would have been after I exhausted my supply of refrigerated mustard and barbecue sauce.
*Not stocking up on water in this event would seem to be more irrational than stocking up on it
Politicians and their amen corner?
1) Possibly, but folks standing in deep lines at a retailer is a good situation, not to mention that the throughput is faster.
2) He's still getting whatever markup over wholesale, so profits are higher.
3) ??
4) The shopkeeper is probably insured.
Yeah, that's one situation where it seems some degree of price increases are advisable. You're not likely to see those tourists again. Even if they're back next summer, it's not likely they're going to seek out the nice longhair with affordable film.
I've finally found something on which Ray and I agree.
Whining just to whine. The best you've come up with is no bread for Ray and runs on products are inherently bad.
Don't worry, I didn't really expect you to understand.
Not to mention not understanding that you could have drunk the water out of your water heater rather than a nice fresh Evian bottle?
Evian is horrible. I'll take the water heater.
QFT
It's Obama's fault, or Bush's, I forget.
Anyone who keeps their ketchup in the refrigerator probably puts ketchup on hot dogs.
When you explain yourself so poorly, you shouldn't.
You guys dodged a bullet and are on here complaining about it while many of your neighbors in the region are still flooded and without power. In the areas where the storm hit hardest, one of the reasons they're back up and running is that they did a really good job mobilizing in advance of the storm and staging to get recovery underway quickly. There were lots of trees downed on I95, but they had them cleared within a few hours of the rain stopping. Yes, TWC and all of the news networks oversold the storm, but these same networks gave us 24-7 coverage of the Anna Nicole story, so it's not like this is something new for them. Faced with a hurricane striking a region unaccustomed to dealing with them, it looks like things went pretty well.
If anyone should be complaining, it's the people who actually suffered because of this storm.
Did you get a hang nail once, Ray Ray? Did the ouchie hurt?
I did not. But I did consider using Bailey's Irish Creme that had been expired for 4 years in my coffee. But the bottle was unopened. And I didn't accept that Bailey's Irish Creme could expire. But I guess it is cream?
Ray should refrigerate himself.
This thread is far more interesting now that I blocked Ray and SBB. I should have done this ages ago!
Who doesn't? Along with spicy mustard and some kraut! Not a huge fan of relish or yellow mustard, personally, but I can see the appeal. Part of the problem is that at about 4 condiments in, you've drowned your dog even if you're using properly moderate condiment proportions.
WHICH I BOIL, BEEYATCHES!
I find it amusing that Ray Ray imagines himself as a tough hard survivor when he is probably soft and doughy.
I find most - if not all - of Ray's reasoning soft and doughy, but it should be said he was rather tough playing softball.
There was never a bullet, always a Cat 1/Tropical Storm. That's what was anticipated, and that's what happened. Nothing was "dodged."
Your imagination has run wild.
So then we have established that you are not Ray and you do not live in Manhattan.
And I'm sure 7 years ago someone said something similar in New Orleans.
Well, I'm sure we can find someone saying that New Orleans is actually on Venus but I think that is besides the point. New Orleans is a city built below sea level and that sea happens to be next door.
No offense, McCoy, but that's a tremendously foolish way to think about it.
So Ray should buy a canoe? Or should he simply buy a pack of Ramen noodles?
Again, if he can get the $50, more power to him, but I do think it can harm long-term customer relationships.
so then the guy is an idiot if there is a ready supply of cheap ice just down the road and any customer that buys from him is an idiot as well.
Maybe. It's not your decision to make for other merchants, though.
Didn't say that it was, but if you act like a ####### dog towards your customers just because they're at a temporary disadvantage, don't be surprised if you pick up a few fleas. Not everyone thinks that life should be nothing but a goddam auction.
You guys dodged a bullet and are on here complaining about it while many of your neighbors in the region are still flooded and without power. In the areas where the storm hit hardest, one of the reasons they're back up and running is that they did a really good job mobilizing in advance of the storm and staging to get recovery underway quickly. There were lots of trees downed on I95, but they had them cleared within a few hours of the rain stopping. Yes, TWC and all of the news networks oversold the storm, but these same networks gave us 24-7 coverage of the Anna Nicole story, so it's not like this is something new for them. Faced with a hurricane striking a region unaccustomed to dealing with them, it looks like things went pretty well.
Just to make sure we're clear I'm not complaining but you going to the store to pick up extra milk, eggs, and D batteries doesn't make the recovery happen quicker. As far as I can tell Ray wasn't bvtching about the states mobilizing, and even said he understands the various governments taking it seriously, he wasn't complaining about the media and his fellow citizens over-hyping this storm.
But that's wrong. Certain places got it worse than was expected, certain places didn't get it as bad. It could have been worse for you guys, but it wasn't. The impact upstate was greater than expected. Why is this hard for you to understand? You're making it sound like hurricanes always behave perfectly as predicted, when that's not the case.
Your imagination has run wild.
Not at all. Look at the news from outside NYC and tell me that this thing did no damage.
I'm just saying that bad #### can happen, often unexpectedly, and stocking up on a few staples makes tremendous sense, and the ongoing objection to this doesn't make much sense unless we're married and you're just at that "sticking-to-principle-can't-back-down-now" stage.
So you bought cheap film and then charged prices that were expected for normal rolls of film in normal situations or did you simply undercut the inflated price with your own high but lower than price?
Most assuredly bad stuff can happen. I believe Ray's point was that the "bad stuff" that was talked about heading towards NYC was overblown and that individuals did not have to take it to such heightened levels.
I have no idea what went on in NYC before and during this storm both in regards to the hype and what individual people did.
I think the only thing I found amusing so far is people's weird habit of stocking up on milk and eggs before a disaster.
15 minutes on the Interstate isn't exactly just down the road, but yes, any customer paying $50 for a bag of ice would've fit my definition of idiot.
The guy himself isn't an idiot if he can get it, although again I think it's maximizing short term gain versus long term relationships. I know I've avoided the place since (though to be honest it's easy to do; not sure if I'd be so principled if there weren't several other stations within spitting distance).
Agreed; that is odd behavior. Milk is, like, the ultimate perishable.
Kinda depends on the hurricane warning now doesn't it?
Not if you intend to make cheese from it and sell it to famished survivors!
So you bought cheap film and then charged prices that were expected for normal rolls of film in normal situations or did you simply undercut the inflated price with your own high but lower than price?
We bought fresh European Kodak** / Fuji / Agfa film from fully licensed NYC wholesalers***, had it UPSed down to DC about 3 times a week, and sold it at about a third below the suggested retail price. We still had plenty of margin, and really all we were doing was following a discount retail model that's become fairly standard in the past 30 years. Hard as it seems to believe, in 1976 discount stores of any kind in Washington were very few and far between, and discounting camera film in the DC area was simply unheard of. We actually got a fair amount of free publicity from the Post for our little vending spot, and it sure didn't hurt. Every other store and street vendor sold film at list price, and on the 4th itself the other vendors all raised their prices. We kept ours at our usual discounted price and were taking in sales from 10:00 AM till dusk. Obviously we'd prepared for the big demand by stocking up a ton of extra film well in advance.
**Which unlike U.S. Kodak, came with pre-packaged mailers for factory developing. Since this variety of Kodak at the time was generally unavailable outside the New York area, this gave me a huge selling point with foreign tourists, who were used to buying the developing along with the film back in their own countries. I can still hear all the French and German tourists asking "You have zee Kodak film weeth processing?", and I had to repeat my answer several times before they'd believe it.
***Who advertised weekly in the "Opportunities for Buyers" page of the Times's business section.
Sure! I kind of like ketchup. I don't share Ray's Raylike disdain for it. When I have a burger at The Burger Box (now very infrequently), I get ketchup for the fries. But I don't fix burgers or fries at home, so I have little use for actually owning the stuff. As an obnoxious foodie, I keep several kinds of prepared mustard around for use in homemade salad dressings and other recipes, but AFAIK there are no foodie recipes that call for ketchup.
If I had any, it would be in the fridge and stay there. All this taking it out and warming it up and putting it back in to cool seems to me like a recipe for botulism.
Ketchup on hotdogs: no.
Ray doesn't have a point. He's just b!tching to #####. So weird that someone who seems to be doing OK in the world is always complaining about some injustice being perpetuated against him, this time in the form of not being able to get bread on a Sunday night.
"Heightened levels" included buying lots of batteries, bread and water. Batshit insane, those people!
Once the power's been out an hour, I consider the milk a lost cause.
Heating and cooling is not how one gets botulism.
Huh. That never would've occurred to me. I would've, y'know, just bought cheese.
This may be partially because I wouldn't have the slightest idea on how to turn milk into cheese.
Well, that's a relief as I look forward to three-day-old leftovers for supper tonight.
What do you put on hot dogs if not ketchup? Mustard is disgusting
Sweet pickle relish.
Ray's political philosophy in a nutshell: Lucky Ducky!
Sonoran Hot Dog: Yes
Chili Cheese Dog: Yes
Coney Dog: Yes
Kraut: Yes
Slaw and pulled pork: Yes
I had never heard of that until now.
It sounds disgusting.
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