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Thursday, June 28, 2018

The Luke Heimlich case and why one baseball team’s pursuit is full of logical landmines

“The Royals, and particularly their general manager, Dayton Moore, see MLB and the platform it provides as a conduit to a greater purpose. Moore’s deep religious convictions guide the organization, and the significant consideration it’s given to signing Heimlich follows the axiom of hate the sin, love the sinner.”

“Should the Royals sign Heimlich without properly addressing these concerns, they will be branded, accurately and damningly, an organization of hypocrites more concerned with its players viewing sexual acts than admitting to sexually assaulting a kindergarten-aged girl.”

Hank Gillette Posted: June 28, 2018 at 03:11 AM | 135 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: kansas city royals, morality, second chances

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   1. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: June 28, 2018 at 08:59 AM (#5701324)
"Moore’s deep religious convictions guide the organization, and the significant consideration it’s given to signing Heimlich follows the axiom of hate the sin, love the sinner.”


Standard Christianist claptrap to PR over the hypocrisy of their actions. Same ####, different day.
   2. , Posted: June 28, 2018 at 09:08 AM (#5701331)
Yep. I know there are a lot of Christians on this board and many of them are probably good and decent people who are concerned that others come to Christ.

They should consider that modern American Christianity makes most people want to puke and run away from any God so worshipped.

EDIT: To be on topic: If the Royals want to sign an awesome lefty arm cheap, just do it. Don't build it up as a moral exercise. The man is free, not in legal jeopardy and available. That's all anyone needs. If he really is reformed - or even innocent of the charge - it will eventually show. But a PR tour to justify the signing on moral grounds is grotesque. If Moore believes he should sign Heimlich, he should do it. If he doesn't, he shouldn't. Anything else is BS.
   3. Spahn Insane Posted: June 28, 2018 at 09:27 AM (#5701339)
Standard Christianist claptrap to PR over the hypocrisy of their actions. Same ####, different day.

I'll enjoy the trainwreck that is the Royals even more knowing Moore's a bible thumper.
   4. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: June 28, 2018 at 09:32 AM (#5701343)
I think Heimlich has fully admitted to the charge - so I don't think potential innocence is in the cards.

By no means am I particularly religious, nor do I want to turn this into an OT-Religion (or OTP-adjunct) thread, but I do think it should be pointed out that at least the strain of Christianity (Catholicism) that I'm most familiar with has significant elements of penance, forgiveness, and absolution heavily intertwined.

Absolution isn't free - nor is it just a timeboxed concept... but, via the doctrines by which I lay no great claim to be either an expert nor a disciple of - sins should be confessed fully and sincerely, penance is doled out and performed, forgiveness results.

Please do note - I am not making a case for Heimlich... and my bona fides on the veneered hypocritical application of such are well documented.... but, I'm just saying that it is an element of Christianity. By definition.

I feel like we went through all this before two years ago - Heimlich was a top 10 prospect in the 2017 draft, before the news broke shortly before the draft...

Religion aside, the practical reality is that this sort of sin/crime has extraordinarily high rates of recidivism, so I'm not sure what either Heimlich or a potential signer ought to do here... Pledging some manner of continued donations to a charity in this realm would probably be at least the cost of entry to the discussion.
   5. BDC Posted: June 28, 2018 at 09:34 AM (#5701344)
Rangers' ownership is practically the Invisible Hand at this point, but I don't recall them employing any rhetoric over signing Matt Bush except "he's not currently in prison." There were media takes on the morality of it all, but from a team perspective (IIRC) it was like, "he's on the roster, so what."
   6. , Posted: June 28, 2018 at 09:35 AM (#5701346)
Forgiveness isn't celebratory.

As to whether he did it, yes, he signed a confession. But he claims it was a deal and that he's innocent. If he wanted forgiveness, he'd admit what he did and do what he could to make amends. He hasn't and he isn't.

Let him pitch and I'll hope for a 115mph comebacker at his eye on the pitch where his rotator cuff shreds like stale parmesean.
   7. , Posted: June 28, 2018 at 09:36 AM (#5701349)
@BDC: Right. That is exactly as it should be. Signing a player isn't a moral statement. If someone, like Moore, believes it is, then there is no way they should sign him. Moore doesn't get to mix his religion and his business and come off looking good here.
   8. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 28, 2018 at 09:38 AM (#5701353)
By no means am I particularly religious, nor do I want to turn this into an OT-Religion (or OTP-adjunct) thread, but I do think it should be pointed out that at least the strain of Christianity (Catholicism) that I'm most familiar with has significant elements of penance, forgiveness, and absolution heavily intertwined.


Mainly if you think you can make a quick buck on a depreciated asset. Or is the sincere and devout Mr Moore in the habit of staffing his operation with penitent child molesters from the mailroom to the boardroom?

Don’t be a sucker.
   9. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: June 28, 2018 at 09:44 AM (#5701358)
Mainly if you think you can make a quick buck on a depreciated asset. Or is the sincere and devout Mr Moore in the habit of staffing his operation with penitent child molesters from the mailroom to the boardroom?

Don’t be a sucker.


I'm not... I'm just saying.

Setting aside Heimlich (or let's pretend it's a "different" Heimlich, per Bunyon above - since his story blew up last year before the draft, I haven't followed it closely) -

Here's an idea from the Moore side if he wanted to demonstrate some sincerity. Heimlich's 2017 draft projections had him going somewhere in the top 10... so a slotting of somewhere in the ~2 million dollar range. Presumably, yes - he'd be signing now for peanuts... maybe a few thousand. So - in consort with the contract, donate 2 million and the change to whatever.

In any case, I have little desire to help either Moore or Heimlich here, so whatever...
   10. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: June 28, 2018 at 09:46 AM (#5701360)
the significant consideration it’s given to signing Heimlich follows the axiom of hate the sin, love the sinner.”


Just because you love the sinner doesn't mean that you need to hire him and irresponsibly throw him into a work environment where he's going to come into close contact with small children every day, placing both him and them at risk unnecessarily.
   11. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 28, 2018 at 09:50 AM (#5701365)
But what if you could potentially make a profit on that decision? Jesus loves a happy buck doesn’t he?
   12. winnipegwhip Posted: June 28, 2018 at 09:51 AM (#5701366)

Let him pitch and I'll hope for a 115mph comebacker at his eye on the pitch where his rotator cuff shreds like stale parmesean.


Ladies and Gentleman introducing Bunyon!!!! The newest nominee for Supreme Court Justice.
   13. Hysterical & Useless Posted: June 28, 2018 at 09:51 AM (#5701367)
a work environment where he's going to come into close contact with small children every day,


Jocks can be pretty immature, I'll grant, but we should at least pretend that they're grown-ups.
   14. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: June 28, 2018 at 09:53 AM (#5701369)
As to whether he did it, yes, he signed a confession. But he claims it was a deal and that he's innocent.


A lot of the pieces carrying water for Heimlich's redemption narrative try and portray the situation as a play by the girl's mother to gain advantage in a custody battle. This is probably the point at which it's worth noting that Heimlich's brother was the one who turned him in, and that they haven't spoken in the five years since Luke's plea.

I can't imagine any circumstances where I'd willingly confess to diddling a toddler if I hadn't actually done it.
   15. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: June 28, 2018 at 09:57 AM (#5701374)
One of the other pieces about this situation noted how insulting it was to Jarrod Dyson for Moore to compare Dyson's positive test for amphetamines to Heimlich's child molestation.

Dyson apparently thinks so, too.
   16. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: June 28, 2018 at 09:58 AM (#5701376)
But what if you could potentially make a profit on that decision? Jesus loves a happy buck doesn’t he?


I suppose you could also pledge some percent of his salary going forward on top of the initial donation.

IDK... I know the BBTF rule is that when one proposes something - on whatever whatif basis - one must then defend it to the death, but I might have to break that rule because I REALLY don't have a problem with Heimlich digging ditches or whatever.

And since the Royals aren't my laundry, if they DO sign him, I plan to contribute my own snark (and FTR - I oppose MY laundry, the Cubs, signing him... despite my Moore-covering attempts, I don't think it's worth the headache of actually trying to work a "how about if we..." gambit).
   17. Infinite Yost (Voxter) Posted: June 28, 2018 at 10:02 AM (#5701379)
I think Heimlich has fully admitted to the charge - so I don't think potential innocence is in the cards.


Nah, he told he NYT it was a scam for reduced punishment. Like Vlad, I find that a little hard to believe -- the stigma is so great that there's almost no amount of reduced sentence that could compel me to plead guilty if I weren't guilty. This first blew up because it was discovered that he was supposed to be registered as a sex offender in Benton County, and wasn't. That #### follows you around, and it makes you a pariah. I don't know enough about prison to say for sure that it's actually worse, but it feels pretty close.
   18. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: June 28, 2018 at 10:04 AM (#5701380)
But what if you could potentially make a profit on that decision? Jesus loves a happy buck doesn’t he?


Prosperity gospel don't lie, #######.
   19. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 28, 2018 at 10:04 AM (#5701381)
How about he goes to play in Japan and can consume all the loli anime he wants?
   20. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: June 28, 2018 at 10:11 AM (#5701388)
So... reading a bit more - again, my background was limited to the stories from more than a year ago - yeah... I guess I picked a bad case to make a broader point. Dude sounds totally unrepentant and I concur - that's not something I can see an innocent person pleading guilty to.

   21. perros Posted: June 28, 2018 at 10:14 AM (#5701391)
Jocks can be pretty immature, I'll grant, but we should at least pretend that they're grown-ups.


You stole my line.

I don't blame Heimich for denying it, considering child molesters are social pariahs (even though he was a child himself). The whole sex offender registry thing is pretty obscene in its denial of ex-con rights. Because of the whole stay so many feet away from kids, there's like ten houses in all of Miami Dade that a registered offender can reside, f'rinstance. Many take to finding vacant lots and such "in the zone".

If we aren't willing to allow for even the most stringent laws under strict court guidance to work, might as well get on back to the good ol' days the lynch mob.
   22. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 28, 2018 at 10:20 AM (#5701395)
By no means am I particularly religious, nor do I want to turn this into an OT-Religion (or OTP-adjunct) thread, but I do think it should be pointed out that at least the strain of Christianity (Catholicism) that I'm most familiar with has significant elements of penance, forgiveness, and absolution heavily intertwined.

Absolution isn't free - nor is it just a timeboxed concept... but, via the doctrines by which I lay no great claim to be either an expert nor a disciple of - sins should be confessed fully and sincerely, penance is doled out and performed, forgiveness results.

Please do note - I am not making a case for Heimlich... and my bona fides on the veneered hypocritical application of such are well documented.... but, I'm just saying that it is an element of Christianity. By definition.


100% correct. Confession (and absolution) is one of the 7 sacraments for Catholics and Orthodox. You could say, without much exaggeration, the entire religion is based on repentance and forgiveness.
   23. winnipegwhip Posted: June 28, 2018 at 10:22 AM (#5701399)
If they sign him and he meets his potential the Royals getting Lynch, Singer and Kowar in the draft with Heimlich they have quickly rebuilt the farm system on the mound overnight.
   24. Rally Posted: June 28, 2018 at 10:33 AM (#5701414)
Like Vlad, I find that a little hard to believe -- the stigma is so great that there's almost no amount of reduced sentence that could compel me to plead guilty if I weren't guilty.


I agree, but I am not sure that a 15 year old necessarily understands that. Not saying I buy his story now, but it is at least somewhat plausible and we can't judge his motivations assuming the understanding that a mature adult would have.
   25. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 28, 2018 at 10:35 AM (#5701418)
Please do note - I am not making a case for Heimlich... and my bona fides on the veneered hypocritical application of such are well documented.... but, I'm just saying that it is an element of Christianity. By definition.

100% correct. Confession (and absolution) is one of the 7 sacraments for Catholics and Orthodox. You could say, without much exaggeration, the entire religion is based on repentance and forgiveness.


Well it wouldn’t be a proper discussion of child molestation without bringing the Papist position into it.

By the way, “The Keepers” on Netflix is a horrifying documentary.
   26. winnipegwhip Posted: June 28, 2018 at 10:54 AM (#5701435)
I agree, but I am not sure that a 15 year old necessarily understands that. Not saying I buy his story now, but it is at least somewhat plausible and we can't judge his motivations assuming the understanding that a mature adult would have


The Portland paper had an article in February on this case which was more balanced than the Oregonian article last summer. It seems that the overriding part of pleading guilty was that Luke would face the penalties prescribed and it would eventually be scrubbed from the record in the future if he met the demands of the court....which he did. Experts who dealt with Heimlich in his "rehabilitation" gave positive remarks.

If he is to be punished for life for this why do we have separate laws for juveniles?
   27. DJS Holiday-Related Pun Posted: June 28, 2018 at 11:02 AM (#5701442)
I thought given the slant of politics-threads commenters, I'd see a lot of progressive positions on criminal justice. But nope, some of the most strident around here suddenly become far right law 'n' order types here on a teenage offender that wasn't deemed by the state as likely to re-offend, no longer has to be registered as a sex offender, and now has no legal restriction on anything he does.

I think it's likely that he did it, but let's not pretend that every person who pleads guilty to get a much lesser sentence actually did the crime. His actual sentence, encouraged by his parents to take it, left him the chance of having a completely normal life, with no registry and sealed records after five years. And no, him denying the charges wasn't something he suddenly did a 180 on after-the-fact. The court-ordered therapist's report indicated that he denied doing it before the guilty plea, denied it after the plea, and denied it all through therapy.


This provider is in no position to make a judgment on the subject of Luke's guilt or innocence. He pled guilty in court and was sentenced for that crime. He was given several opportunities throughout his treatment to admit to the crime, but he did not do so. He did, on multiple occasions, show tremendous guilt and responsibility for the impact this has had on his family. He expressed how, even though he knows he shouldn't feel responsible, he cannot help but feel responsible for how his parents and siblings are being affected.

Even if Luke actually committed the offense for which he pled guilty, his recidivism risk remains very low. Compared to the average … client, significantly low. It is for this reason that I encourage Luke to pursue getting his registration requirement waived and his record sealed as soon as legally possible. For Luke, these consequences do nothing to protect the community and serve no other useful purpose than to create barriers to his future success, whether it be applying for jobs or applying for college/university admissions.

Luke's continued denial that he committed the crime for which he pled guilty is not a risk factor for sexual recidivism. … This writer considers Luke to have completed his treatment and is discharging him from services.


Now, I'm certainly not going to say Luke deserves "a big round of applause" as the judge said when ending Heimlich's probation, as it's quite possible he did a pretty awful crime at at least 13 and 15 and the victim has to live her whole life. But if we're comfortable saying that nobody guilty of a sex crime, no matter the lack of future crimes, the age, the degree, should be ever admitted back as a full-time member of society, then we should simply come and state that. And I don't buy an admission as requirement for this to be intellectually serious; Heimlich's actions are consistent both with a teenage sex offender that is lying and an actual innocent teenager who, pressured by his family, took a generous plea bargain. Giving the same incentives for an actually innocent person to lie (again, this is theoretical, not saying Heimlich is necessarily innocent of the crime in the philosophical sense) to have a life as there are to take a much milder plea bargain doesn't seem like all that productive a bargain.

And there's something vaguely classist with that whole notion of "Sure, Heimlich can have a life, but he has to be a member of the poor person caste and dig ditches or cut sheet metal or pick up garbage from the side of the road."

Now, I do agree with bunyon on the Royals moral bleatings being a little absurd and over-the-top. Just frigging say "He's a really good prospect that's served his time, has no further legal restrictions, and was deemed by the judges and the therapists to not be a danger to anyone and unlikely to reoffend." No need to bring Jesus into the whole thing.

There was much less hemming-and-hawing about Angel Villalona, welcomed back to baseball with open arms after a murder charge that suddenly went away after he gave the victim's family $138,000, the family asked the judge to drop the case, and the star witness then conveniently disappeared.
   28. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: June 28, 2018 at 11:12 AM (#5701445)
I thought given the slant of politics-threads commenters, I'd see a lot of progressive positions on criminal justice. But nope, some of the most strident around here suddenly become far right law 'n' order types here on a teenage offender that wasn't deemed by the state as likely to re-offend, no longer has to be registered as a sex offender, and now has no legal restriction on anything he does.


For someone who makes a living attempting to reconcile data points in an objective manner, you sure seem awfully impressed by YR or Sam walloping low A hanging curveballs 500 ft "that one time".
   29. Infinite Yost (Voxter) Posted: June 28, 2018 at 11:24 AM (#5701456)
I'd see a lot of progressive positions on criminal justice. But nope


Since we're not actually talking about criminal justice, I don't know why you'd expect that. But then you're an adherent of a political philosophy for teenaged boys and billionaires, not serious grown-ups, so I don't know why I would expect subtlety from you, either.
   30. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 28, 2018 at 11:34 AM (#5701459)
Does anyone know why this case wasn't sealed?

It seems odd to me that the Judge would find it appropriate to not have him register as a sex-offender, and expunge the records when he reached 21, then why was the plea made public? It seems to completely defeat the purpose.
   31. DJS Holiday-Related Pun Posted: June 28, 2018 at 11:36 AM (#5701461)

Since we're not actually talking about criminal justice, I don't know why you'd expect that. But then you're an adherent of a political philosophy for teenaged boys and billionaires, not serious grown-ups, so I don't know why I would expect subtlety from you, either.


Kill 'em all and let God sort them out, eh Strom? Top marks for subtlety there. You're going to need more if you're going to keep falsely maintaining this progressive façade long-term. It's easier for Rickey, who simply takes the most violent position on any position.

And if you think issues such as societal entry for criminals has nothing to do with criminal justice, well, that's an interesting position. So ban-the-box has nothing to do with criminal justice either?
   32. DJS Holiday-Related Pun Posted: June 28, 2018 at 11:40 AM (#5701465)
Does anyone know why this case wasn't sealed?

It seems odd to me that the Judge would find it appropriate to not have him register as a sex-offender, and expunge the records when he reached 21, then why was the plea made public? It seems to completely defeat the purpose.


If I'm not mistaken, the name came out when he didn't give Oregon an update at his birthday, which was required by state law for registered sex offenders for offenses from other states. This was a few months before the records would have been sealed (I think it was April and the five years ended in like August or September). They later dropped the charges after they believed he was unaware of violating Oregon law.
   33. DJS Holiday-Related Pun Posted: June 28, 2018 at 11:42 AM (#5701466)
<dupe>
   34. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 28, 2018 at 11:45 AM (#5701469)
If I'm not mistaken, the name came out when he didn't give Oregon an update at his birthday, which was required by state law for registered sex offenders for offenses from other states. This was a few months before the records would have been sealed (I think it was April and the five years ended in like August or September). They later dropped the charges after they believed he was unaware of violating Oregon law.

Unfortunate. Especially if he didn't do it.
   35. winnipegwhip Posted: June 28, 2018 at 11:47 AM (#5701472)
Does anyone know why this case wasn't sealed?

It seems odd to me that the Judge would find it appropriate to not have him register as a sex-offender, and expunge the records when he reached 21, then why was the plea made public? It seems to completely defeat the purpose


IIRC this came about because of a mess-up in the Eugene,OR sheriff's office.

From the Portland Tribune Feb 1 2018

Heimlich was near the end of his third season pitching for Oregon State when word of his juvenile adjudication was made public — nearly three years after his probationary term was over and little more than two months before the end of the five-year period.

If 16 or older, a juvenile offender in Washington must notify state officials of any address change through the five-year period in which he is registered as a sex offender. (The timeline is two years if the offender is 15 or younger. Heimlich had turned 16 by the time his case came to court in August 2012.) Heimlich gave notice of a couple of moves during his time in Corvallis. Shortly after his 21st birthday — Feb. 3, 2017 — he received a citation from Benton County for failure to re-register. Oregon officials had incorrectly determined him to be a resident of the state. Washington state rules do not require re-registration on a 21st birthday. Heimlich's attorney, Stephen Ensor, took the case to court, and the citation was dismissed.

In the interim, however, The Oregonian learned of Heimlich's case and printed a story on his legal situation, including a quote from the niece's mother saying she was "appalled " that Oregon State would have him on its team. (The newspaper did not name the mother to protect the identity of the child.)

   36. winnipegwhip Posted: June 28, 2018 at 11:51 AM (#5701477)
Here is the link to the full article.

Luke Heimlich Article

The article is long and full of lots of details which SJW's abhor.
   37. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: June 28, 2018 at 11:53 AM (#5701479)
Does anyone know why this case wasn't sealed?

It seems odd to me that the Judge would find it appropriate to not have him register as a sex-offender, and expunge the records when he reached 21, then why was the plea made public? It seems to completely defeat the purpose.


He did have to register as a sex offender for 5 years.... Per this (from 2017) - his plea was entered August 12, 2012... so his registration/terms of the plea would have required check-ins and registry until August 2017. It sounds like he DID initially register when he began college - but didn't show up for an April 2017 check-in (what I assume would have been his last? IDK). This popped him in a database, then came to the attention of the police doing a regular check of the registry, etc, etc...

IOW - if the piece above is accurate - had he done his April 2017 check-in (and I presume, address update?) - it sounds like it would have indeed been expunged.

The other angle here - as I said, I do know he was initially a high draft prospect. He'd have still been listed in the sex offender register at the time of the draft - he was a junior at the time.

If I have everything accurate, what he could/should have done -

1) Show up for his April check-in.

2) Declare loudly that he had no intentions of forgoing his senior season - was NOT going to sign in the 2017 draft and planned to stay and complete his degree/last year of eligibility.

...then - he'd have entered the draft in 2018. The record would have expunged, and I presume - absent someone speaking up on the matter - it's entirely possible no one would have known.

His 2018 season wasn't as good his 2017 season - so maybe we might have stories about Heimlich's decision costing him a few hundred K, but I suspect - sans his legal problems - it's not like he'd have fallen off the boards. He was likely still going to be a first rounder, probably high first rounder.

EDIT: Cokes...
EDIT2: Well, some cokes - as it sounds like there's still disagreement on the exacting details. IDK...
   38. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: June 28, 2018 at 12:01 PM (#5701492)
Great thread would read again, other than the puzzling #36.

I read the article you linked Winnipeg, it read like a classic "puff piece". Except this time the "puff" wasn't an improved off season regime or new pitch, but how a guy who probably molested a toddler is ready to move on with his life.

Uplifting stuff.
   39. DJS Holiday-Related Pun Posted: June 28, 2018 at 12:07 PM (#5701500)
Unfortunate. Especially if he didn't do it.

As I said, I'm not sure he didn't do it. If forced at gunpoint to pick a side, I'd probably lean onto "did it" rather than "didn't do it." But I'm not sure and generally speaking, I believe all criminals, after having served their sentences and all criminal/civil remedies being dispensed with, should be able to -- from a moral standpoint -- be able to seek out normal lives. Not that I'd *force* anyone to ignore Heimlich's history, of course. I don't personally feel the whole public auto-da-fé thing is necessary, though.
   40. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: June 28, 2018 at 12:19 PM (#5701515)
I read the article you linked Winnipeg, it read like a classic "puff piece". Except this time the "puff" wasn't an improved off season regime or new pitch, but how a guy who probably molested a toddler is ready to move on with his life.


You should read the SI piece that will inevitably come up in a search.

In any case, since we've reached the point where it's all going to devolve into the usual irony of alleged individualists seeing only broad, generalized currents in their unending beef with the oddly entirely uniform hordes of SJWs and progressives...

I will just say this. It's hard to imagine myself as Heimlich - too many years since I was 15 maybe to imagine it, but I just really cannot see pleading guilty to something like this if I was completely innocent.

But - if I had - even under the most generous reading of 'oops' regarding how the story came to light (not to mention - being on the cusp of my probation ending AND potentially being in line for millions of dollars), I also cannot see how I wouldn't be damn sure there would be no cracks to fall through. I.e. moving out of state? I'd be checking with the local authorities, perhaps even insisting on some kind of sealed "he checked in!" document. I'd probably even seek legal consultation in advance - even if it meant maxing out the plastic to ensure the expunging happened as the plea agreement was laid out.

In short, such a plea agreement, abiding by it to the absolute, most generous limit, would have likely become a central part of life for the entire duration of it, to the most lengthy extent imaginable.
   41. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: June 28, 2018 at 12:34 PM (#5701534)
And there's something vaguely classist with that whole notion of "Sure, Heimlich can have a life, but he has to be a member of the poor person caste and dig ditches or cut sheet metal or pick up garbage from the side of the road."


I think it's less about that and more about the family entertainment sector being a spectacularly poor choice for someone with a history of child molestation. If he genuinely is "reformed", for whatever definition you choose to use there, then it seems like the best method of keeping him that way would be to help him get gainful employment doing something that doesn't bring him into close proximity to large numbers of young children on a regular basis, particularly if he's going to be presented to them as the sort of prestigious figure and role model (as professional athletes often are) who would be easily able to groom one if he were so inclined. If he wants to be good, help him actualize that desire and don't put temptation in his path.

If Dayton Moore is convinced by the strength of his character and wants to help him make a fresh start, great! Hire him to work the phones selling season tickets, or train him as the new intern in your accounting department, or make him a prep cook in the stadium kitchen.
   42. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: June 28, 2018 at 12:43 PM (#5701543)
If Dayton Moore is convinced by the strength of his character and wants to help him make a fresh start, great! Hire him to work the phones selling season tickets, or train him as the new intern in your accounting department, or make him a prep cook in the stadium kitchen.


I think Dayton is convinced that he can help his team win ballgames and later for all that other stuff. Which he should just come out and say.
   43. , Posted: June 28, 2018 at 12:57 PM (#5701570)
I think Dayton is convinced that he can help his team win ballgames and later for all that other stuff. Which he should just come out and say.

This was my point. The other discussion (What is an appropriate punishment and when should it end) is great but this is the bit that galls me. Moore isn't making a religious or moral decision. He's making a business decision. A distasteful one, perhaps, for him. But if he wants to wrap himself in God and Bible on all his other decisions, he has to make this one seem like it's bigger than it is, more meaningful. My gripe here isn't with Heimlich, who, I think, given what the justice system ruled, should be free to pursue whatever profession will have him (I won't ever root for him and will root against him, as I have throughout the CWS). And if Moore simply says, "hey, I can get a great arm, cheap!" then fine. Don't make it more than that.
   44. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: June 28, 2018 at 01:02 PM (#5701575)
I'm with ya Bunyon.
   45. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: June 28, 2018 at 01:32 PM (#5701610)
I will just say this. It's hard to imagine myself as Heimlich - too many years since I was 15 maybe to imagine it, but I just really cannot see pleading guilty to something like this if I was completely innocent.


Oh I can definitely see myself pleading guilty. You are sitting in a room with a couple of cops, your lawyer, your mom or dad and a district attorney. The DA says "son, if you plead guilty we will put this under lock and key, no one will ever know. Or, you plead not guilty, you will go to court and when you are found guilty you will go to prison...as a child molester. Have you ever seen Oz or Law and Order? No matter, google it when you get home. Hey doesn't matter to me, my case against you is strong and I'm going to win it in about 20 minutes and I'll still have time to go get a nice dinner. What do you prefer?"

I mean if I'm that 15 year old kid the only time I would need between the end of his speech and saying "guilty" is the time I would need to change my drawers.

Honestly I'm 47 years old. I seriously think if I was ever accused of being a child molester I would jump off the nearest tall building rather than take even the slightest chance I would spend one night in prison as a child molester.

The other stuff about being more careful about not letting things fall through the cracks, yeah I get it and I agree but at the same time 20 year olds make mistakes.
   46. Zach Posted: June 28, 2018 at 01:52 PM (#5701623)
The current criminal justice system is built around tactical guilty pleas, not trials. That has a lot of unfortunate consequences.

One of those consequences is that a guy who insisted on his innocence before the plea bargain, during the plea bargain, throughout his therapy, and after his therapy was over has nonetheless legally admitted guilt to a crime with life-altering consequences.

It seems to me that we should try harder to give people like that their day in court, instead of pressuring them to give it up in hopes of lesser punishment.
   47. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: June 28, 2018 at 01:56 PM (#5701630)
Oh I can definitely see myself pleading guilty. You are sitting in a room with a couple of cops, your lawyer, your mom or dad and a district attorney. The DA says "son, if you plead guilty we will put this under lock and key, no one will ever know. Or, you plead not guilty, you will go to court and when you are found guilty you will go to prison...as a child molester. Have you ever seen Oz or Law and Order? No matter, google it when you get home. Hey doesn't matter to me, my case against you is strong and I'm going to win it in about 20 minutes and I'll still have time to go get a nice dinner. What do you prefer?"


Yeah - but it's the "something like this" that is key... that's where I just I'd be saying "isn't there something else I could plead guilty to?" Even a something else with less lenient terms.

Anyway - since we've sort of rounded about criminal justice generally, I feel it might be appropriate to put in a plug...

Forget Oz or L&O - I've got some friends and family who volunteer for the above org and I've met many of the exonerees. Contrary to what I imagine is popular myth - a settlement windfall for the wrongly accused/convicted/imprisoned - is the exception, NOT the rule. In many instances, agreements get reached specifically to disallow any civil charges or settlements in exchange for an agreement by the authorities to stop fighting the overturning of a prior conviction. In some instances - the same kind of agreements are reached in exchange supporting release on parole.

Just saying that if folks are truly concerned about the harsh nature of the criminal justice system, the way it can sometimes work against innocent, alleged defendants -

I can say without absolute, positive confidence - without ever having met him, nor knowing no more than anyone about the absolute truth of the matter - there are far better and far more in need sort than a college graduate, now free of legal penalty regardless, who may or may not be in line for a very lucrative career.
   48. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 28, 2018 at 01:57 PM (#5701631)
The current criminal justice system is built around tactical guilty pleas, not trials. That has a lot of unfortunate consequences.

One of those consequences is that a guy who insisted on his innocence before the plea bargain, during the plea bargain, throughout his therapy, and after his therapy was over has nonetheless legally admitted guilt to a crime with life-altering consequences.

It seems to me that we should try harder to give people like that their day in court, instead of pressuring them to give it up in hopes of lesser punishment.


The problem is that the vast majority of people who take plea deals are, in fact, guilty. So, you'd be adding tremendous expense to the system so that 98.9% of indictees get harsher punishment, 1% of the guilty get off scot free, and the 0.1% that are innocent still get found guilty most of the time.
   49. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: June 28, 2018 at 02:16 PM (#5701650)
The problem is that the vast majority of people who take plea deals are, in fact, guilty. So, you'd be adding tremendous expense to the system so that 98.9% of indictees get harsher punishment, 1% of the guilty get off scot free, and the 0.1% that are innocent still get found guilty most of the time.


I disagree - strongly - with your assessment of proportionality.
   50. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 28, 2018 at 02:26 PM (#5701656)
What percentage of convicted criminals do you think are actually innocent? The vast majority have long rap sheets before they ever see a day in jail.
   51. Tom T Posted: June 28, 2018 at 02:28 PM (#5701658)
You are sitting in a room with a couple of cops, your lawyer, your mom or dad and a district attorney.


But...but...I thought his father IS the district attorney?


But seriously....

We DO need to allow for reformation and return to society, but I suspect we all have some boundary beyond which we would have difficulty accepting the latter. Obviously, we have --- as a group --- concluded there are some actions beyond which return is NOT going to happen (hence the death penalty, life w/o parole), and not all of us would inherently agree with these "breakpoints". Not entirely sure how close to/far over the line I find a teen admitting to diddling a toddler on multiple occasions and then not being repentant about it....
   52. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: June 28, 2018 at 02:36 PM (#5701666)
We can agree that the state over prosecutes most everything, in order for DA's and judges to get elected by being "tough on crime."

We may have a disconnect when the same people who are apparently super duper flaming left wing criminal rights activists when it comes to a teenager diddlying the hoochie of a kindergartner jack off into the corners about THE LAW when it comes to throwing toddlers in cages at the southern border.

We can agree that Heimlich probably doesn't deserve a lifetime sentence of hanging out on the "sex criminal" registry if he did his time and saw the error of his ways, but he doesn't seem to be doing that. He seems to be shouting \"##### set me up."

We're going to disagree on the notion that he's owed a starting pitching slot in MLB, or that Dayton Moore is interested in drafting him out of the Christian forgivey forgiveness of his forgiveywivey heart.
   53. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 28, 2018 at 02:36 PM (#5701667)

I think it's less about that and more about the family entertainment sector being a spectacularly poor choice for someone with a history of child molestation. If he genuinely is "reformed", for whatever definition you choose to use there, then it seems like the best method of keeping him that way would be to help him get gainful employment doing something that doesn't bring him into close proximity to large numbers of young children on a regular basis,
First, I'm not sure why you think baseball players are spending a lot of time hanging out with young children. Second, the notion that sex offenders are high risks for reoffending turns out to be nonsense. I mean, sure, I wouldn't let him make an appearance on behalf of the team at an elementary school, but I don't think these are real concerns. The real issue is that people don't like child molesters, and don't want them to have nice things.
   54. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 28, 2018 at 02:37 PM (#5701668)
We DO need to allow for reformation and return to society, but I suspect we all have some boundary beyond which we would have difficulty accepting the latter. Obviously, we have --- as a group --- concluded there are some actions beyond which return is NOT going to happen (hence the death penalty, life w/o parole), and not all of us would inherently agree with these "breakpoints". Not entirely sure how close to/far over the line I find a teen admitting to diddling a toddler on multiple occasions and then not being repentant about it....

I think this is absolutely correct.

To me, some of the sex crimes (child molestation, rape with violence) are further beyond the pale than some homicides. I can imagine a getting angry enough to commit manslaughter. I can't imagine ever raping someone. I'd much rather be neighbors with somebody who killed a guy in a bar fight, than one who abducted and raped a woman.
   55. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 28, 2018 at 02:45 PM (#5701681)
he real issue is that people don't like child molesters,

For really good reason. Unrepentant child molesters and rapists are evil people. It's not a crime of utility.

A drug dealer shoots another drug dealer, or an innocent person gets caught in the crossfire, you can understand why he did what he did. I can't understand rape or child molestation.
   56. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: June 28, 2018 at 02:47 PM (#5701684)
What percentage of convicted criminals do you think are actually innocent? The vast majority have long rap sheets before they ever see a day in jail.


The data suggests that the absolute floor is at least 1% - and before you say "ooo - 1%" - that's a factor of 10 times more than your 0.1%. It's almost certainly higher than that - the 1% figure comes a comparison in the 90s of DNA-based exonerations vs the total murder of capital crime prisoners that is now quite dated , when DNA-based exonerations were just becoming a thing.

FWIW - the org I linked to above (and to which I'd highly encourage donations) is not linked to or related to the Innocence Project. Indeed - the Innocence Project tends to take on the rather low-hanging fruit where something like DNA evidence can overturn a murder conviction. Centurion generally takes the cases where the faulty conviction cannot be overturned by DNA evidence, but rather - conclusive disproving of the original case via confessions (by the actual perpetrators or just witnesses who lied for any number of reasons).

That's just capital cases.

So... if a pure comparison of scientifically/DNA-based exonerations vs. the total capital conviction rate is already 1% based on early 90s date - at least thricefold DNA exonverations since... Toss in a few that don't fall into the DNA exoneration realm (and the further exonerations since the numbers above), we're at "several" percent.

Now, add in non-capital crimes where five years or whatever is almost always a "too bad, so sad" situation.

I'd probably guess somewhere in the 5 to 10% realm.

Indeed - I think your rather lazy "rap sheet" statement is part of the problem... In quite, quite often plays a strong role in wrongful convictions of ALL types. Even sans an actual conviction - arrests still get recorded... still come up in investigations... and in plenty of cases, police and prosecutors just a take a "Oh well, even if the person is innocent, s/he probably got away with something else" realm.
   57. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 28, 2018 at 02:47 PM (#5701685)
he real issue is that people don't like child molesters,

For really good reason.
Hey, I'm not the Mel Hall fan around here; don't think I'm saying they're wrong. I'm just saying that other arguments against signing him are rationalizations; this is the reason.
   58. perros Posted: June 28, 2018 at 03:14 PM (#5701706)
You are sitting in a room with a couple of cops, your lawyer, your mom or dad and a district attorney


A vague class bias was mentioned above, but there's an overwhelming class bias across the board. The most populsr off-off-topics are about conspicuous overconsumption and lots of travel. People here are well off and can't really imagine the above scenario.

Plus, this is a middle school kid we're talking about. I think a lot of us tend to repress memories of the typical #### that we went through then, particularly dealing with sex.

And then we have the snappers who imagines everybody arrested is guilty. He should have been a ####### cop. As recent history has shown, a lot of innocent people have been framed up over the years. And you're lucky if the cops didn't shove a night stick up your ass or find that you hanged yourself in custody.

The irony is the people who aren't habitual defenders are the ones who are most likely to be railroaded, 'cos average clean nose joe has no idea what he's up against.

Crime and punishment is one area where I'm down with the (civil) libertarians 100 percent.
   59. DJS Holiday-Related Pun Posted: June 28, 2018 at 03:22 PM (#5701712)
hence the death penalty, life w/o parole

Well, I did say after criminal/civil penalties. Someone with life in prison or executed obviously wouldn't be back in society, under this definition.
   60. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: June 28, 2018 at 03:40 PM (#5701723)

A drug dealer shoots another drug dealer, or an innocent person gets caught in the crossfire, you can understand why he did what he did. I can't understand rape or child molestation.

I don't get why being able to understand murder makes it less evil.

I understand why someone would want to murder someone, but I've managed to go my whole without murdering anyone. It really hasn't been that hard, even though there have been times where I might have done it in a consequence-free world. A murderer is succumbing to an impulse that almost everyone has from time to time but manages to suppress.

Meanwhile, the child molestor is dealing with impulses that don't make any sense to the vast majority of people. The reason I don't molest children isn't because society says not to. It's because it holds absolutely zero appeal to me. I therefore can't even begin to put myself in the molestor's mindset, but I have to assume it's a life-consuming impulse (often triggered by their own abuse as a child), because why else would someone do those kinds of things, given all the terrible consequences that accompany being caught? I have pity for someone like that, and I'm not willing to just dismiss their whole existence as evil, even though I too wouldn't want one living near me and would have a hard time rooting for a team that goes out and signs them.
   61. asinwreck Posted: June 28, 2018 at 03:47 PM (#5701730)
The most vile aspect of Dayton Moore’s comments was this passage:

“We were very interested in Luke last year. And obviously this accusation came out. So we immediately put everything on pause, as we should, to gather facts, gather information. He went out and performed this year. Not only did he achieve athletic excellence, he achieved academic excellence along the way. He went undrafted, all 30 teams. I think teams are still trying to find out more and more information. They’re trying to come to grips with this. This is something that happened in their family. Their family has dealt with this. Their family remains very close today, all parties involved.

It’s a very complex deal.”

Calling a conviction based on a guilty plea an “accusation” is a particularly blatant discrediting of a sexual assault victim. This is not a complex deal; this is Dayton Moore waving away a due process judgement that Heimlich molested a small child.
Whether Heimlich has cause for embarking on a professional baseball career or not after completing the terms of his sentence is a good question, but the way Moore characterizes the case is horrible. I would not trust him with the care of my child.
   62. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: June 28, 2018 at 03:48 PM (#5701733)
The irony is the people who aren't habitual defenders are the ones who are most likely to be railroaded, 'cos average clean nose joe has no idea what he's up against.


I think I'd disagree with most likely.

I'd say easier - for the reason you mention... but I don't think I'd say most likely because it all constitutes a feedback loop.

I mean, I don't think all or even most police/prosecutors are looking to railroad anyone and everyone... more often than not - it's just "the job" and like I imagine everyone, some days - you just 'do the job' via the path of least resistance... and that quite often means likely is good enough.

If you want a true railroading - I'd look at something like the case of Barry Beach. The wiki entry is fairly complete - but brother, if even a tiny fraction of he and his family have relayed - he was nothing more than a convenient patsy so the local PD could pin a murder the son of one its own was likely a party to.

EDIT: and let me just add -- may former prosecutor, MT Governor, and now rich lobbyist Marc Racicot burn in hell sooner rather than later.
   63. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 28, 2018 at 03:53 PM (#5701740)
I'd probably guess somewhere in the 5 to 10% realm.

I'd potentially buy 1%. But, I think 5-10% is crazy.

I would actually think capital cases would have a higher false conviction rate, just because the police and DA are under such public pressure to get the guy. With a car theft, there's no one screaming for the guy's head, so the police and DA have less incentive to railroad someone.
   64. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: June 28, 2018 at 03:58 PM (#5701746)
I'd potentially buy 1%. But, I think 5-10% is crazy.


Do the math. Again - the number quoted above was based on then 285 such convictions overturned. The number has ballooned to nearly 1000 since.

I would actually think capital cases would have a higher false conviction rate, just because the police and DA are under such public pressure to get the guy. With a car theft, there's no one screaming for the guy's head, so the police and DA have less incentive to railroad someone.


Disagree - while there are no shortage of falsely convicted that end up so thanks to incompetent, indifferent, or otherwise really, really awful representation - unlike non-capital crimes, there are more levers available (unfortunately, those levers often require the death penalty be pronounced).

Meanwhile - the police chief may be under pressure to convict someone... but down in the trenches among the police and prosecutors? It certainly helps to convict someone in a high profile case - but for the majority of them, your promotions and career are very much a a matter of clearance rates, conviction rates, etc.
   65. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 28, 2018 at 04:07 PM (#5701754)
Indeed - I think your rather lazy "rap sheet" statement is part of the problem... In quite, quite often plays a strong role in wrongful convictions of ALL types. Even sans an actual conviction - arrests still get recorded... still come up in investigations... and in plenty of cases, police and prosecutors just a take a "Oh well, even if the person is innocent, s/he probably got away with something else" realm.

If someone is a career burglar, and gets convicted for a burglary they didn't go, while getting away with 50 they did do, I don't really consider that an innocent man going to jail. Likewise a drug dealer.
   66. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: June 28, 2018 at 04:18 PM (#5701764)
First, I'm not sure why you think baseball players are spending a lot of time hanging out with young children.


There are tons and tons of kids at the ballpark. Asking for autographs, chasing foul balls, all that good stuff. At PNC Park, kids can even come down on the field and have a catch with their parents after the game is over, if they want. I've been to minor league games where the Boy Scouts set up tents in the outfield and camp out under the stars on regularly scheduled Scout Nights at the ballpark.

It's a target-rich environment for a pedophile with a documented history of molestation, and even a lot of people who have communicated the concept of "stranger danger" to their kids probably wouldn't think twice about their son or daughter approaching a professional athlete.

Second, the notion that sex offenders are high risks for reoffending turns out to be nonsense.


There seems to be a considerable rate of recidivism for child molesters according to the studies cited on this page by the Justice Department. For example, 16.3% of those who molested girls re-offended within 15 years, according to Harris and Hanson, while a study of Canadian sex offenders by Hanson, Scott, and Steffy in 1995 claimed a recidivism rate on sexual offenses of 35.0% over the 15 to 30 years after their release from prison. The page also notes that the actual rates are likely much higher than the official statistics indicate, due to victims' reluctance to report offenses of this nature.

Every offender is different, but on the whole, I think it would be better for everyone if Heimlich came into close contact with as few children as possible.
   67. PreservedFish Posted: June 28, 2018 at 04:23 PM (#5701771)
If The Wire is at all accurate, even the lowliest police officer is concerned with his conviction rate and similar stats, because everyone is judged on those statistics, from the Mayor and DA on down.
   68. jmurph Posted: June 28, 2018 at 04:35 PM (#5701778)
There are tons and tons of kids at the ballpark. Asking for autographs, chasing foul balls, all that good stuff. At PNC Park, kids can even come down on the field and have a catch with their parents after the game is over, if they want.

It's almost impossible to imagine that you're making this argument in good faith.
   69. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: June 28, 2018 at 04:38 PM (#5701780)
If someone is a career burglar, and gets convicted for a burglary they didn't go, while getting away with 50 they did do, I don't really consider that an innocent man going to jail. Likewise a drug dealer.


Well, I guess if Dan cared anything about the principles he claims to hold dear - he'd want a word with you... but since he's pretty much a flimflam man, I'll take it upon myself to say that I strongly disagree.

Unlike posers - I'm not going to lay any grand claims to being a avowed and complete civil libertarian... but I am enough of one that I see no possible, earthly way a legitimate, just, and fair criminal justice system can possibly exist under such conditions.

If we're going to be living in a world where it's not about the crime you actually did or did not commit - just some subjective, hazy, veneered take on the 'measure of the person', then it's all just pointless.

Might as well not even bother with the pretense. It's all just a waste of time.

Hell, I'm not even particularly religious - but whether it's God, karma, gods, or whatever (including even the absence of anything else) - I leave the absolute truths and complete judgments to something more omniscient and wiser than myself...

Here on earth, it needs to be laws, evidence, procedure, in honest service of that truth. And the limits of human beings mean that we should narrowly focus on that specific item at issue.
   70. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: June 28, 2018 at 04:46 PM (#5701787)
It's almost impossible to imagine that you're making this argument in good faith.


Why so? Teams use all kinds of targeted marketing designed to bring kids to the ballpark. E.g. here. I don't think I've ever been to a game where there weren't small kids in my section of the stands. And they're all predisposed to like and trust the ballplayers.
   71. Zach Posted: June 28, 2018 at 04:54 PM (#5701794)
This provider is in no position to make a judgment on the subject of Luke's guilt or innocence. He pled guilty in court and was sentenced for that crime. He was given several opportunities throughout his treatment to admit to the crime, but he did not do so. He did, on multiple occasions, show tremendous guilt and responsibility for the impact this has had on his family. He expressed how, even though he knows he shouldn't feel responsible, he cannot help but feel responsible for how his parents and siblings are being affected.

Even if Luke actually committed the offense for which he pled guilty, his recidivism risk remains very low. Compared to the average … client, significantly low. It is for this reason that I encourage Luke to pursue getting his registration requirement waived and his record sealed as soon as legally possible. For Luke, these consequences do nothing to protect the community and serve no other useful purpose than to create barriers to his future success, whether it be applying for jobs or applying for college/university admissions.

Luke's continued denial that he committed the crime for which he pled guilty is not a risk factor for sexual recidivism. … This writer considers Luke to have completed his treatment and is discharging him from services.


I think this quote needs to be repeated in this thread. It's quite an extraordinary passage.

This is a psychiatrist talking about his area of specialty. He has presumably dealt with guilty people before -- even guilty people proclaiming their innocence. And yet he is extremely open to the possibility that Heimlich was wrongly convicted. He brings it up several times, despite opening the passage by observing that it's not his place to judge the correctness of the verdict. He says the recidivism threat is "significantly low", "[c]ompared to the average ... client" He recommends that the "registration requirement be waived and his record be sealed as soon as legally possible."
   72. SoSH U at work Posted: June 28, 2018 at 04:56 PM (#5701799)
Why so? Teams use all kinds of targeted marketing designed to bring kids to the ballpark. E.g. here. I don't think I've ever been to a game where there weren't small kids in my section of the stands. And they're all predisposed to like and trust the ballplayers.


But the ballplayers' time with the kids, alone in particular, is nearly non-existent. Simply being in the same large arena isn't what most of us would consider access.
   73. jmurph Posted: June 28, 2018 at 05:00 PM (#5701810)
Yeah again it's just impossible to believe that's a good faith argument.
   74. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: June 28, 2018 at 05:08 PM (#5701815)
But the ballplayers time with the kids, alone in particular, is nearly non-existent.


Until the wrong parent turns their back at the wrong time. Or he uses some of the regular blocks of contact with young fans, like the pre- or post-game autograph signings down the outfield lines, to make contact and start grooming a potential victim. Or just seeing a bunch of kids all day starts getting him into bad thought loops, increasing the chance that he'll re-offend when he's on his own time.

I honestly, really, truly don't think it's a good idea.
   75. DJS Holiday-Related Pun Posted: June 28, 2018 at 05:33 PM (#5701832)

Until the wrong parent turns their back at the wrong time. Or he uses some of the regular blocks of contact with young fans, like the pre- or post-game autograph signings down the outfield lines, to make contact and start grooming a potential victim. Or just seeing a bunch of kids all day starts getting him into bad thought loops, increasing the chance that he'll re-offend when he's on his own time.


In some cases, yes, but I'm not seeing it from the basic facts of this particular case. We're talking someone who was 13 and 15 and has done everything he was supposed to do rehab-wise.
   76. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: June 28, 2018 at 05:41 PM (#5701841)
The psychiatrist om the case who has spent a lot of time with Heimlich states "his recidivism risk remains very low. Compared to the average … client, significantly low."

Yet, internet yahoos think he will be grooming victims while milling about with thousands in a baseball stadium.
   77. perros Posted: June 28, 2018 at 05:52 PM (#5701846)
It's quite an extraordinary passage.

This is a psychiatrist talking about his area of specialty.


The more scientists get a grasp of neurobiology, the more the legal system needs to take its findings into account. The irony is so much of what's called science in the courtroom isn't -- ballistics and forensic evidence is used to make positive statements of fact rather than using it to rule out possibilities. The point should be to prevent harm to people, including the accused. Understanding the social context of crime is also vital.

There isn't some Luke Heimlich that exists yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Certainly not as a teen and young adult.
   78. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: June 28, 2018 at 05:55 PM (#5701848)
The psychiatrist om the case who has spent a lot of time with Heimlich states "his recidivism risk remains very low. Compared to the average … client, significantly low."


It might be lower than the risk from the average pedophile, but I bet it's still higher than the risk from someone who never pled guilty to groping a toddler in the first place.

Yet, internet yahoos think he will be grooming victims while milling about with thousands in a baseball stadium.


It's a bad view of the game, but it put them on top of the field, especially close to the Yankees' 28-year-old right fielder, Mel Hall. Each time he jogged out to his position between innings to warm up, the girls would ask him to toss them a ball. Hall would fake as if he would, but then he wouldn't, and then he'd smile at them. This went on, inning after inning. Typical Hall: He was playful and mischievous, lacking the aloofness of most ballplayers, somehow more accessible and fun loving. Often, when they played the Red Sox, as they were on this day, he'd wear a T-shirt underneath his jersey saying, "Boston Sucks."

He toyed with the girls all game long — "You want the ball?" — but never gave them one. When Hall moved from right field to left field to start the second game of the doubleheader, he continued to make teasing gestures toward them. After the girls left the game early to beat the traffic, Andrea's father said they should write Hall and ask him to autograph a baseball.

Two weeks went by. They were studying at the Fairfield Public Library for their freshman year final exams when they became bored, and decided to write that letter to Hall. They addressed it to Yankee Stadium, stuck in the mail, went back to studying, and didn't think about it again.

Until a Friday afternoon soon after, when somebody called Jennifer at home claiming to be Mel Hall. He said he had noticed the blond, wholesomely beautiful girl in the stands that day, and wanted to get to know her better — perhaps she and her family would like to come to Yankee Stadium for the game tomorrow? He said he got lots and lots of fan mail but never opened it. The fact that he happened to open her note must mean it was destiny.

It was too ridiculous. She was sure somebody was messing with her, so she hung up. Maybe it was the boy she had a crush on, a huge Yankee fan who really liked Mel Hall. The two had just gone to the movies and ... the phone rang again. She hung up. This happened several more times, stretching over a couple of hours. It was a preposterous notion: Mel Hall, the major leaguer on the field that day, from the Yankees, calling her?

Yes, impossible, said her father, who was also a big Yankees fan: It couldn't be Hall because the game had already started, and Hall was in the lineup that night. But the phone rang again, and the person claiming to be Hall said he was the designated hitter that night, so he could sneak into the clubhouse and use the phone. He said he would prove to Jennifer that he was who he said he was: When he came up to bat, he would tap home plate with his bat three times.

The Diaz family gathered around the television. Jennifer's grandfather, a huge fan too, was there, and a family friend from down the street also came by. Hall strode up to the plate, charismatic as always, stylish in his ‘80s Jheri curl, a natural hitter in his element. But the first pitch came in, and ... Hall did nothing. Jennifer was embarrassed. She had always been so gullible.

Still, everyone kept watching. And before the next pitch, Hall tapped home plate with his bat three times. Then he took his bat and pointed at the television camera.

Twenty years later, Jennifer would testify in court: "We were all ecstatic."
-Greg Hanlon, "The Many Crimes of Mel Hall", SBNation.com

But yeah, that kind of thing could never happen. I'm obviously the crazy one.
   79. DJS Holiday-Related Pun Posted: June 28, 2018 at 06:12 PM (#5701856)
Mel Hall wasn't a 13-year-old for one of the incidents. And when he actually did anything, his career was already long over. Nobody's saying a team shouldn't pay heightened attention to how Heimlich behaves.
   80. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: June 28, 2018 at 06:45 PM (#5701869)
I think this quote needs to be repeated in this thread. It's quite an extraordinary passage.

This is a psychiatrist talking about his area of specialty. He has presumably dealt with guilty people before -- even guilty people proclaiming their innocence. And yet he is extremely open to the possibility that Heimlich was wrongly convicted. He brings it up several times, despite opening the passage by observing that it's not his place to judge the correctness of the verdict. He says the recidivism threat is "significantly low", "[c]ompared to the average ... client" He recommends that the "registration requirement be waived and his record be sealed as soon as legally possible."


The psychiatrist om the case who has spent a lot of time with Heimlich states "his recidivism risk remains very low. Compared to the average … client, significantly low."

Yet, internet yahoos think he will be grooming victims while milling about with thousands in a baseball stadium.


Good points and perhaps.

Per what I said above - sure... imperfections and all - the system should work itself as it does, on the exact specifics of the case.

I'm not gonna quibble with the legal suggestions around the criminal penalties of the matter.

In terms of risk, though - I do think people are overstating the conclusions.

First, I have no idea if the psychiatrist in question actually is a specialist in this area. I think it's a mistake to just assume that the court-mandated handler of the case is actually specified in the field. S/he might be... or might not be. It's very much a good thing that part of the sentence included this element - but it's also a bit of stretch to assume the mandate is matching specialized analysts/therapists with the matter at hand.

Second, I would much more strongly quibble with the "lot of time". The court-ordered therapy might be as little a single, all-day session. It might be quarterly individual sessions. Googling around - it's hard to be sure. From what I can tell - "Level 1" is the lowest possible adjudication, and that seems to mean a group session for a day and then an annual "check-in".

FWIW, I have a still good friend/ex-GF who is a social worker/therapist who does specialize in juveniles. She used to work for a public clinic - and they also get cases from criminal referrals. In such instances, there are forms that they have to complete - including such assessments. This is in Illinois - not Washington - but the meatgrinder is one of the reasons she left the clinic. It's a lot of stress to complete an assessment on the rehabilitation of someone you might spend very little time with (Washington's statutes sound like they're actually better than Illinois).... especially since they know full well such assessments are going to be held as the linchpin in an assembly line.

Strictly for purposes of criminal adjudication and disposition? I'd wholly agree that the counselor's recommendation should hold sway... and the disposition should follow accordingly. Going back to the imperfections of humanity - best we've got.

Beyond that? Well... let's just say I doubt anyone here would - or should be - comfortable with Luke around their kids. The guy still has a life to live - and obviously, needs some room to do so. I'm just saying that the high rate of recidivism is not a myth.

What's more - although kids subject to all manner of trauma are remarkably resilient, with nearly astonishing recovery capabilities from terrible things that have befallen them.... molestation is one of those exceptions. It's something that can really #### them up. Most often - especially sans intensive and dedicated help - it's going to lead real problems in life... from the relatively 'mundane' - unhealthy relationships, including higher acceptance of physical abuse, etc to more individually dangerous (drug/alcohol abuse and the spiral that can often entail) to worse - a statistically inordinate number of abused/molested kids become such themselves.

Lest anyone think I'm just solely suggesting harsher, more punitive and lifelong punishments - I'm not.

If I were a godlike dictator - we'd be talking about specialized incarceration, intensive, dedicated, and highly specialized psychiatric treatment, a rare instance where I think psychiatric drugs are the "best we have today", etc.

That would certainly be expensive - very expensive.... but if you really want to alleviate the problem, I think it's worth the social investment. Economists can debate whether, in the grand scheme, it's actually more cost-effective.
   81. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 28, 2018 at 06:45 PM (#5701870)
The more scientists get a grasp of neurobiology, the more the legal system needs to take its findings into account. The irony is so much of what's called science in the courtroom isn't -- ballistics and forensic evidence is used to make positive statements of fact rather than using it to rule out possibilities. The point should be to prevent harm to people, including the accused. Understanding the social context of crime is also vital.

There isn't some Luke Heimlich that exists yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Certainly not as a teen and young adult.


Preventing future harm is only one aspect of the criminal justice system. There's also getting justice for the victim (retribution) and rehabilitation.

Neurobiology can weigh in on the first and the last, but retributive justice is necessary, regardless of the causes of the crime.
   82. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 28, 2018 at 06:47 PM (#5701871)
Why so? Teams use all kinds of targeted marketing designed to bring kids to the ballpark. E.g. here. I don't think I've ever been to a game where there weren't small kids in my section of the stands.
Um, duh? I don’t think anyone here doesn’t know that. But, uh, so what? How many games have you been to where there were players in your section of the stands?
   83. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 28, 2018 at 06:48 PM (#5701872)
Well, I guess if Dan cared anything about the principles he claims to hold dear - he'd want a word with you... but since he's pretty much a flimflam man, I'll take it upon myself to say that I strongly disagree.

Unlike posers - I'm not going to lay any grand claims to being a avowed and complete civil libertarian... but I am enough of one that I see no possible, earthly way a legitimate, just, and fair criminal justice system can possibly exist under such conditions.

If we're going to be living in a world where it's not about the crime you actually did or did not commit - just some subjective, hazy, veneered take on the 'measure of the person', then it's all just pointless.

Might as well not even bother with the pretense. It's all just a waste of time.

Hell, I'm not even particularly religious - but whether it's God, karma, gods, or whatever (including even the absence of anything else) - I leave the absolute truths and complete judgments to something more omniscient and wiser than myself...

Here on earth, it needs to be laws, evidence, procedure, in honest service of that truth. And the limits of human beings mean that we should narrowly focus on that specific item at issue.


You're entirely focused on procedural justice. That's not the only aspect of justice.

I'd also prefer that criminals get convicted for all the crimes they commit, and none of the ones they don't. But, that's not the real world.

A guilty man going free because of procedural error is equally unjust to an innocent man going to jail where the system worked flawlessly, and a simple mistake was made.
   84. perros Posted: June 28, 2018 at 07:14 PM (#5701879)
A guilty man going free because of procedural error


The times this happens is due to serious police and prosecutor misconduct -- the system is set up to give them both tremendous benefit of the doubt. Like I said, you'd have made an excellent cop -- find the guilty, coerce a confession, and frame them up.

Neurobiology can weigh in on the first and the last, but retributive justice is necessary, regardless of the causes of the crime.


Retribution makes it nearly impossible to get at the facts of a case, esp the high-profile one where a scapegoat will do lacking a convictable suspect.
   85. DJS Holiday-Related Pun Posted: June 28, 2018 at 07:38 PM (#5701884)
Well, I guess if Dan cared anything about the principles he claims to hold dear - he'd want a word with you... but since he's pretty much a flimflam man, I'll take it upon myself to say that I strongly disagree.


Whew, if a real nasty POS like you thinks I'm terrible, well, I'm doing something right. I appreciate the compliments.
   86. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 28, 2018 at 07:41 PM (#5701887)
The times this happens is due to serious police and prosecutor misconduct -- the system is set up to give them both tremendous benefit of the doubt. Like I said, you'd have made an excellent cop -- find the guilty, coerce a confession, and frame them up.

I didn't say he shouldn't go free. I just said it was an injustice.

Retribution makes it nearly impossible to get at the facts of a case, esp the high-profile one where a scapegoat will do lacking a convictable suspect.

If the criminal justice system doesn't provide retribution, you're going to get vigilante justice. The first responsibility of the justice system is to get justice for the victim.
   87. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: June 28, 2018 at 08:08 PM (#5701896)
You're entirely focused on procedural justice. That's not the only aspect of justice.

I'd also prefer that criminals get convicted for all the crimes they commit, and none of the ones they don't. But, that's not the real world.

A guilty man going free because of procedural error is equally unjust to an innocent man going to jail where the system worked flawlessly, and a simple mistake was made.


Wow. I cannot disagree more with the last statement.

I'm not trying to SJW the conversation, but jeez...

Another guy I've met through Centurion would be a case in point - Ed Baker was convicted solely and entirely on the testimony on the actual perpetrator who fingered him in exchange for exchange for a guilty plea and lighter sentence. His arrest, prosecution, and defense were hardly "flawless" - but they also weren't obviously or conclusively "flawed", at least in a sense that would allow for any recompense.

What's more - after 26 years in prison, starting when he was 17 - after the judge threw out his original conviction as a stated "miscarriage of justice", the DA again put the screws to him and basically agreed not to seek a new trial in exchange for him agreeing not to file any civil suits.

I've gotten to know Ed somewhat - he's a regular at my own family holidays and whatnot (he was a poor south Philly kid - all of his family is either dead or scattered to the winds) - and one of the conversations I just really (still) struggle to comprehend is why he signed the agreement. There are points of the conversations around his incarceration that he won't really talk about, but let's just say that I get the impression that those of us who might claim we'd take a few million for time in jail have no idea what we're talking about. I mean - it's just beyond my comprehension. A realm my mind cannot piece together.

He works for the city of Philadelphia Streets & San and delivers sandwiches in the evenings now. He's 61. I think about the fact that he's not going to get in enough time to get a fully city worker pension, his social security earnings aren't going to reach anything approaching topline levels, and the pure and simple fact is this: Most of his youth, his wild oats years, and even most of his 'middle age' was spent in prison for a crime he didn't commit. He only ended the ordeal in exchange for trading away half a life in exchange for... an agreement not to extend the ordeal.

I really struggle with how you can create that equivalency.

Individuals get away with crimes and society fails to hold them accountable. I understand the idea that we failed the victims and protect potential victims. In this case, it is the exact and precise opposite. Society was the perpetrator of a crime - wrongfully locking a human being in hell for more than two and half decades and then just casting him about for not even so much as a "sorry".

If you really - and give it some thought - think that is just and proper... then your society is not one that I have any desire to be a part of. It is at best, callous, wrong, and unjust. In more hyperbolic moments - I would say that is downright evil.
   88. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: June 28, 2018 at 08:15 PM (#5701900)
Whew, if a real nasty POS like you thinks I'm terrible, well, I'm doing something right. I appreciate the compliments.


I didn't say you're terrible - I said you're a flimflam man.

There are too many of those in the world to warrant much special consideration.

You're nothing but a sheep who thinks his slightly off-key baa'ing makes him special. You're not.
   89. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 28, 2018 at 08:16 PM (#5701901)

If you really - and give it some thought - think that is just and proper... then your society is not one that I have any desire to be a part of. It is at best, callous, wrong, and unjust. In more hyperbolic moments - I would say that is downright evil.


I said nothing that would indicate that I think what you describe is right or proper. It's a travesty. I'm shocked that a higher court wouldn't set aside the agreement as coerced.

But, when the police or DA screw up and a guilty man goes free, and rapes or kills again, that's also a travesty.
   90. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: June 28, 2018 at 08:29 PM (#5701909)
I said nothing that would indicate that I think what you describe is right or proper. It's a travesty.

But, when the police or DA screw up and a guilty man goes free, and rapes or kills again, that's also a travesty.


But that's the key distinction - and the important one.

The police and/or DA #### up in failing to arrest, prosecute, and incarcerate a guilty man - there is likely, if not certainly, to be no penalty. To the extent there is one - it's lack of promotion. Exceptions, I'm sure, apply. It's also another, extenuating factor in arresting, prosecuting, and incarcerating the wrong man. It goes without saying that it means the actual perpetrator was not.

In terms of society - it's why I insist the equality of the guilty not held accountable vs innocent wrongly held accountable is not equal.

The police and the DA act upon our behalf. The individual criminal acts solely upon his or her own behalf (blah-blah, conspiracies.. you know what I mean).

As a (largely law-abiding) member of society, the police and the DA are agents of me and you.

The criminal is not.

Any reasonable and logical reading of that simply has to accept the larger responsibility for the actions of the agents that act upon its behalf relative to those who do not.
   91. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 28, 2018 at 08:37 PM (#5701914)
But, when the police or DA screw up and a guilty man goes free, and rapes or kills again, that's also a travesty.


And when the cardinal moves the perpetrator to another Parrish to escape scrutiny....
   92. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 28, 2018 at 08:37 PM (#5701915)
The police and/or DA #### up in failing to arrest, prosecute, and incarcerate a guilty man - there is likely, if not certainly, to be no penalty. To the extent there is one - it's lack of promotion. Exceptions, I'm sure, apply. It's also another, extenuating factor in arresting, prosecuting, and incarcerating the wrong man. It goes without saying that it means the actual perpetrator was not.

They should be punished. I agree.

In terms of society - it's why I insist the equality of the guilty not held accountable vs innocent wrongly held accountable is not equal.

It may not be equal, I'll agree there, but both are still terrible. The system needs to strive to avoid both, and balance the risks.

If you let 100 guilty rapists go, and they go on to rape 250 women, that's a far worse outcome than one innocent doing 20 years.
   93. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 28, 2018 at 08:57 PM (#5701929)

What percentage of convicted criminals do you think are actually innocent? The vast majority have long rap sheets before they ever see a day in jail.

[...]

If someone is a career burglar, and gets convicted for a burglary they didn't go, while getting away with 50 they did do, I don't really consider that an innocent man going to jail. Likewise a drug dealer.
So, Snapper's argument in essence is that criminals commit a lot of crimes, so if someone is convicted of a crime, he has likely committed a lot of crimes, and therefore even if he's innocent he's probably guilty. So we shouldn't worry about someone being falsely convicted because that's really not possible because he must be guilty of lots of crimes.
   94. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 28, 2018 at 09:00 PM (#5701934)
A guilty man going free because of procedural error is equally unjust to an innocent man going to jail where the system worked flawlessly, and a simple mistake was made.
Even if that wasn't a monstrous moral calculus to begin with, it's not right on its own terms.

A guilty man going free (because of a procedural error or any other reason) is one injustice.

An innocent man going to jail is two injustices: the innocent person going to prison and the person who is actually guilty of that crime going free.
   95. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 28, 2018 at 09:03 PM (#5701937)
So, Snapper's argument in essence is that criminals commit a lot of crimes, so if someone is convicted of a crime, he has likely committed a lot of crimes, and therefore even if he's innocent he's probably guilty. So we shouldn't worry about someone being falsely convicted because that's really not possible because he must be guilty of lots of crimes.

No. Not at all.

Even if that wasn't a monstrous moral calculus to begin with, it's not right on its own terms.

A guilty man going free (because of a procedural error or any other reason) is one injustice.

An innocent man going to jail is two injustices: the innocent person going to prison and the person who is actually guilty of that crime going free.


And the guilty man is very likely to victimize more people, so it's not just one victim, it's 2, or 10.

But, I already agreed above that the two situations are not equally damaging (they are equally unjust). Maybe the ratio is 2:1, maybe it's 3 or 10 or 100 to one. But, it's not infinite.

The only way to never imprison an innocent man is to never imprison anyone. The system has to be structure to strike the right balance.
   96. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: June 28, 2018 at 09:08 PM (#5701940)
If you let 100 guilty rapists go, and they go on to rape 250 women, that's a far worse outcome than one innocent doing 20 years.


Once again, I'd disagree.

There are, of course, ways to ensure that zero rapes occur. They would be draconian, intrusive, and worse - but a system could certainly be constructed such that rape as a crime ceases to exist entirely.

We do not employ such methods for fairly obvious reasons.

Not being an absolutist - the math should play a role... but only in terms of investigation, bleeding into prosecution (specific to this scenario - that's less an agnostic statement about such than it is a practical statement on the realities of current state).

Once you extend it into a numbers game for purposes of conviction and penalty - that's a line I cannot cross.



   97. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: June 28, 2018 at 09:18 PM (#5701952)
The only way to never imprison an innocent man is to never imprison anyone. The system has to be structure to strike the right balance.


In this case, though - I do think there does exist a far more practical and realistic solution.

I have a LOT of problems with the criminal justice system - but one of the ones that I think ought to be more easily solved is correcting mistakes.

This would be, I'm sure, where the lawyers would jump in - but I think it goes to the heart of an adversarial system (a system, BTW, that is not universal among free/western/democratic nations).

To wit - the "state" fights tooth and nail, to the bitter end, to overturn convictions that are flawed, wrong, bad, or flat-out miscarriages of justice. It does so for the reasons the lawyers can feel free to enumerate (some of which, I might even say are valid).

But... nothing says it MUST be that way.
   98. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 28, 2018 at 09:20 PM (#5701954)
Once you extend it into a numbers game for purposes of conviction and penalty - that's a line I cannot cross.


It's always a numbers game. Even in a single case. Very few juries are 100% certain of guilt. That's not the standard. It's "beyond a reasonable doubt" not "beyond all shadow of a doubt".

That said, I'm 100% on board with harshly punishing cops and DAs that railroad people. And, I'm fine with large civil judgements for those found wrongly convicted.
   99. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: June 28, 2018 at 09:52 PM (#5701975)
That said, I'm 100% on board with harshly punishing cops and DAs that railroad people. And, I'm fine with large civil judgements for those found wrongly convicted.


That's not the best solution. It's not even recompense the victims of wrongful conviction are after (granted my certainly limited exposure, but one that certainly seems universal among the ones I know) - it's just ending the nightmare of being in jail for crimes s/he didn't commit.

I'm not even saying that an adversarial criminal justice system needs to be tossed wholesale (though, I would do so).

Ultimately, it is that adversarial system that causes the most problems for the innocent. The wrongfully convicted have to avail themselves of the exact same system that screwed them over to begin - except, once a conviction is recorded, the uphill climb is now a virtually unscalable cliff.

Other quite non-crime ridden nations employ different systems. Japan, for example, does not have an adversarial system. Obviously, there are still police, prosecutors, etc... but judges have far, far greater leeway to play probative roles. They don't just rule on dry, agnostic evidentiary matters - they're allowed (if not encouraged/it's part of their role) to direct questions themselves, etc.

One - I think, modest - reform I might suggest is turning over post-conviction litigation to similarly constructed systems. Police and prosecution have vested interests - often having nothing to do with guilt, innocence, or even civil penalty - in NOT seeing a conviction overturned. Indeed - while not common - I could point you to cases where the current DA files briefs and depositions supporting an exoneration of a wrongfully convicted person in jail but is relatively powerless to do anything more not just because of the practicalities, but because the extraordinarily stringent rules of the system. To wit - there are situations where even the current DA will openly and readily admit the "wrong person" is in jail, but it doesn't matter.

So - post-conviction - adjourn certain sorts of appeals to alternate systems. I'm not saying you need to exclude the "state" - just say, make it a system where, for example - exculpatory evidence isn't excluded because an arcane decision at trial led there and the prosecution's entire opposition doesn't get predicated on fighting it.

I'm sure the lawyers will pitch a fit - this isn't a minor change to our criminal justice system - but I think it is morally the right one. Post-conviction - the single hardest part of freeing an innocent person isn't actually even proving - never mind 'reasonably', or even conclusively - the person is innocent... it's just getting that proof of innocence allowed into the record for purposes of a decision.
   100. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: June 29, 2018 at 09:22 AM (#5702078)
Flip.
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