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Friday, July 19, 2019

The moral argument for keeping Barry Bonds out of Cooperstown doesn’t hold up

How can Major League Baseball, which proudly celebrates Robinson’s legacy every season, continue to keep Anson in its most hallowed halls while Bonds remains a pariah? Segregation was far more destructive than performance-enhancing drugs in regards to evaluating talent in baseball. This much is irrefutable. Baseball history would be completely different if players such as Josh Gibson and Satchel Paige had been given the opportunity to suit up against Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig.

“If you’re going to have an asterisk in baseball at all — and the commissioners have already ruled you should not,” Thorn said, regarding the assertion that Bonds’ records should be recognized as tainted, “then that asterisk might more easily apply to every white player prior to 1947 because those players did not face the best possible competition. From my standpoint, moralism ought not to enter into it. You’ve got some very dubious characters already with bronze plaques. It’s a little late to close the barn door, because those cows have already left. If you’ve got Cap Anson in there, then I think your moral barometer is very difficult to keep high.”

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 19, 2019 at 11:37 AM | 55 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: barry bonds

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   1. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 19, 2019 at 05:59 PM (#5863315)
“I would say that if I were asked, apart from pitchers, who were the greatest baseball players of all time, and your answer were to be someone other than Willie Mays, Babe Ruth, Ted Williams or Barry Bonds, that you’re crazy.”

Great a hitter as he was, perhaps even the best ever with wartime credit, I fail to see how a one-dimensional player like Williams gets put in the same category as two superb five tool players and a groundbreaking slugger who was also a terrific pitcher. Williams excelled in exactly two phases of the game, period.

Of course Trout may put them all in the rear view mirror by the time his career is over.
   2. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 19, 2019 at 06:04 PM (#5863318)
Great a hitter as he was, perhaps even the best ever with wartime credit, I fail to see how a one-dimensional player like Williams gets put in the same category as two superb five tool players and a groundbreaking slugger who was also a terrific pitcher. Williams excelled in exactly two phases of the game, period.


Hit for average, hit for power, and get a ridiculous amount of walks, and you don't have to do anything else.

William is the 2nd best hitter ever, that gets you in the conversation.
   3. Bote Man Posted: July 19, 2019 at 07:33 PM (#5863331)
If Bonds gets in, then Jonah Keri gets in as well.
   4. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 19, 2019 at 07:41 PM (#5863334)
If Bonds gets in, then Jonah Keri gets in as well.

Well, Bonds also has a history of hitting woman and threatening to kill them, so yeah, I can it.
   5. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 19, 2019 at 08:17 PM (#5863344)
Hit for average, hit for power, and get a ridiculous amount of walks, and you don't have to do anything else.

Williams is the 2nd best hitter ever, that gets you in the conversation.


It can get him into the conversation, but he ain't walking out a winner. That'd be one of the other three.
   6. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 19, 2019 at 08:22 PM (#5863346)
“I would say that if I were asked, apart from pitchers, who were the greatest baseball players of all time, and your answer were to be someone other than Willie Mays, Babe Ruth, Ted Williams or Barry Bonds, that you’re crazy.”
The answer is Babe Ruth, and it’s likely to always be Babe Ruth.
   7. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 19, 2019 at 08:29 PM (#5863350)
Could be. Depends on how you weigh the many factors. But it's certainly not Williams, unless you want to restrict the award to greatest hitter, in which case you might have an argument.
   8. Captain Supporter Posted: July 19, 2019 at 08:34 PM (#5863351)
I have a hard head size limitation on my HOF ballot.
   9. it's hittin' 53450n. Posted: July 19, 2019 at 10:04 PM (#5863363)
I have a hard head size limitation on my HOF ballot.
tell that to ken griffey jr.


   10. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 19, 2019 at 10:39 PM (#5863371)
The answer is Babe Ruth, and it’s likely to always be Babe Ruth.

Could be. Depends on how you weigh the many factors. But it's certainly not Williams, unless you want to restrict the award to greatest hitter, in which case you might have an argument.


No. It's Ruth, until Bonds or Trout go out and win 100 games as a SP.
   11. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 19, 2019 at 11:01 PM (#5863375)
And that's why I'd also probably go with Ruth, even if as a position player he wasn't nearly as well-rounded as Mays or Bonds or Trout.

(Damn, I wish Trout played for an East Coast team, or that the Angels played a lot more home and intradivision day games.)
   12. MuttsIdolCochrane Posted: July 20, 2019 at 05:55 AM (#5863405)
Yes, the racism of Anson and others is, of course, a huge factor pointing to the hypocrisy concerning Bonds. The fact that Mays, Aaron, and so many others have openly admitted to using drugs to enhance their performances on the field is another inarguable factor. All get a total pass. It shows us that because Barry was big, black and not willing to play to the baseball writers' idea of how he should respond to their usual aggressive and disrespectful questioning throughout his career he takes that undeserved hit the others seem to have avoided.
   13. Rennie's Tenet Posted: July 20, 2019 at 07:31 AM (#5863409)
The conduct of players from past generations has to be essentially irrelevant to a discussion of the conduct of more-or-less current players. No organization will admit to having the same standards of conduct today that it had 50 years ago. That's a correct posture: learning has to occur and has to be applied over time.

The conduct of past players is more relevant with respect to questions like, should there be a character clause at all?; and, if so, should there be a process to take plaques down if a player is eventually found to be undeserving?

   14. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 20, 2019 at 09:16 AM (#5863414)
Yes, the racism of Anson and others is, of course, a huge factor pointing to the hypocrisy concerning Bonds. The fact that Mays, Aaron, and so many others have openly admitted to using drugs to enhance their performances on the field is another inarguable factor. All get a total pass. It shows us that because Barry was big, black and not willing to play to the baseball writers' idea of how he should respond to their usual aggressive and disrespectful questioning throughout his career he takes that undeserved hit the others seem to have avoided.


As if any difference between what Barry Bonds did and what Mays and Aaron did can be reduced to a simplistic sound bite of "hypocrisy". But then this is a discussion that went on for years back when the topic first arose, and anyone who actually wants to relive those moments can find them in the BTF archives.

P. S. In case you hadn't noticed, Mays and Aaron are every bit as black as Bonds.
   15. MuttsIdolCochrane Posted: July 20, 2019 at 09:52 AM (#5863416)
True Mays and Aaron were every bit as black as Bonds. True they, along with many white stars took drugs to enhance their performances. That's what PEDs stand for. Those pure facts cannot be changed by any opinions in the "BTF archives". Bonds rightly so disrespected the writers and was never treated fairly. If you think that color did not play at all into him being treated as he was then fine, but that's at the very least a bit naive. Man was he great. Man was he aloof. Man was he unfairly blackballed when he was still great. Should be in the HOF period.
   16. Howie Menckel Posted: July 20, 2019 at 10:27 AM (#5863418)
It shows us that because Barry was big, black and not willing to play to the baseball writers' idea of how he should respond to their usual aggressive and disrespectful questioning throughout his career

we all know there has to be an interesting backstory here
   17. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 20, 2019 at 12:01 PM (#5863433)
Barry was big, black and not willing to play to the baseball writers' idea of how he should respond to their usual aggressive and disrespectful questioning throughout his career he takes that undeserved hit the others seem to have avoided.

There are also persuasive claims that he abused multiple women, including physical violence and death threats, in addition to just treating people, including reporters, like crap.

I agree that personal dislike by reporters has led to him being treated differently. I disagree that personal dislike has anything to do with race.

Bonds seems to be an #######, and a bad person. Those types of people don't get the benefit of the doubt. Mays and Aaron seem to be great guys and are widely loved. Those types of people ALWAYS get the benefit of the doubt.

In addition, McGwire, Clemens, Sosa, and Palmeiro have gotten the exact same treatment Bonds has by the press/HoF. Hard to see racism as the driving factor here.
   18. Bug Selig Posted: July 20, 2019 at 12:59 PM (#5863452)
Should be in the HOF period.
Always a sign of a deep thinker.
   19. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: July 20, 2019 at 01:28 PM (#5863458)
I've always been inclined to cut Barry a LOT of slack in dealing with the media. They're the same people who -- when he was a kid -- were writing that his dad was overrated because he struck out too much, that he was a alcoholic, a druggie, a bad influence in the clubhouse, and a malingerer.

From Sports Illustrated, September 7, 1981:
[Bobby] Bonds will never completely live down his reputation, and, as an older and presumably wiser man of 35, he knows it. Only Dorian Gray had a worse image, and he earned his. Bonds feels his is undeserved. "It's easy to start a rumor," he says, "but where is the verification? I'd like to meet the individual who has ever seen me take drugs. Yet a thousand people write that I do. I can't say I'm perfect. There are days in everybody's life that shouldn't be remembered. But I ask you, how could I have accomplished what I have if I'd done what people say I've done? First of all, I'd be dead. Some of the things I read and hear about me—the drinking and the dope—scare me. And I hear that I'm a troublemaker. How did that get started? I've never been in a fight with a teammate. Until last year I never complained about anything. I played for the Giants in the '71 playoff's with bad ribs. I played in '75 and '76 with bad knees. After all these years in baseball, people should know that I don't complain. But last year I was hurting. I need strong wrists to hit because I hold the bat low. Last year I couldn't turn a doorknob without feeling pain. I couldn't lift a grocery bag."

That's got to make an impression on a dad's teenage son.
   20. base ball chick Posted: July 20, 2019 at 01:33 PM (#5863459)
MuttsIdolCochrane Posted: July 20, 2019 at 05:55 AM (#5863405)

Yes, the racism of Anson and others is, of course, a huge factor pointing to the hypocrisy concerning Bonds. The fact that Mays, Aaron, and so many others have openly admitted to using drugs to enhance their performances on the field is another inarguable factor. All get a total pass.


- well there boy (assuming you are male seeing as how i have been the only female here for over 10 years)
us'ns were, uh, discussing this here topic for like 8 years before you got here and to sum it up,

folks basically ignore any sort of PED use of guys who didn't hit lots of Home Runs (where is the shower of hatred for, say freddy galvis, who is such a un-manly sort that he used a cream meant for wimmen with infected cervixes) or be unarguably one of the 5 greatest righty pitchers who ever pitched in MLB.

oh yeah - don't let me forget the insistence that amphetamines have no effect on any ballplayer's performance besides being like coffee and, um, i guess they didn't like how coffee tasted so they took illegal drugs instead of caffeine pills which is why pretty much all major leaguers took the drugs

and of course, these pure angels never even heard of steroids before jose canseco invented them and seduced all those poor Pure Sin-free boys into allowing him to, uh, inject their virgin buttocks in the secrecy of a bathroom stall (although i disremember any mention of a glory hole, but i digress)

- besides
barry Lamar is an obvious Bad Guy - Big Black Scowling (the opposite of a Good Black Guy like andrew mccutchen or curtis granderson)- breaking ol lying to Congress and everyone else Buddy Boy's heart and we all know he was a worthless nothing before the year 2000 who only achieved greatness by shooting up. something like that

and lastly, we all idolize all the BITGOD guys who were STAHS!!! before we were born (most of us that is) and they get a pass because Back Then baseball was Pure and all the ballplayers were little angels who never EVER would have looked for ANY edge to win, like say, the Great Saint whitey ford who threw a genuinely cut fastball because that is just ccute boys will be boys stuff and had no effect at all on the Pureness of the Game

sigh

bud selig wanted to destroy all baseball Heroes and STAHS!!!! and he sure nuff accomplished that all right

barry lamar, no matter what you think of him, was absolutely magnetic in a way that neither pujols (pre 2011) nor trout, who is going to end up being one of the top 5 position players ever along with bonds, is just NOT.
   21. SandyRiver Posted: July 20, 2019 at 04:09 PM (#5863488)
barry lamar, no matter what you think of him, was absolutely magnetic in a way that neither pujols (pre 2011) nor trout, who is going to end up being one of the top 5 position players ever along with bonds, is just NOT.

What Bonds did in 2001-04, in his age 36-39 seasons, is almost incomparably beyond what anyone else had ever done. The only above-his-peers thing remotely close is Ruth 1920-21, and he was in his mid 20s. There are those who resent Bonds' accomplishments in those years as breaking the game they love, and the shadow of PEDs provided plenty of mud to throw.
   22. base ball chick Posted: July 20, 2019 at 05:54 PM (#5863505)
my very favorite barry lamar moment

you notice the clip starts with a football game and espn breaks away from a FOOTBALL game to show baseball. that sure wouldn't happen today

i was at that game, sick as i was, i wasn't gonna miss barry lamar - and it was beyond amazing. i can't think of anyone in baseball i would go to the Box to see, even with free tix, because it was one of those i will NOT miss this player's games things
   23. Mefisto Posted: July 20, 2019 at 06:58 PM (#5863516)
   24. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 20, 2019 at 07:02 PM (#5863521)
What Bonds did in 2001-04, in his age 36-39 seasons, is almost incomparably beyond what anyone else had ever done. The only above-his-peers thing remotely close is Ruth 1920-21, and he was in his mid 20s. There are those who resent Bonds' accomplishments in those years as breaking the game they love, and the shadow of PEDs provided plenty of mud to throw.

We resnt it because he cheated, and his accomplishments are therefore fake.
   25. SoSH U at work Posted: July 20, 2019 at 07:06 PM (#5863523)
Mine.

Admittedly, Barry has more of a supporting role in this one.

   26. base ball chick Posted: July 20, 2019 at 07:21 PM (#5863526)
Mefisto Posted: July 20, 2019 at 06:58 PM (#5863516)

My favorite.


- i remember this one. you know, he's been OOB for 12 years and i still feel the old thrill when i watch him. cy young vs MVP. he really was just on another level

SOSH

love that one too. i especially like how f rob comes out of the dugout to tell his players to shutup
   27. Banta Posted: July 20, 2019 at 08:25 PM (#5863535)
I wonder if he would have been more hated if everyone wasn't a coward and actually pitched to him? If he hit like 90 homeruns in a season, does it get to the point that even more people now believe that he "broke the game"? If he ends up with over 800 homeruns, would that somehow lessen him more?
   28. MuttsIdolCochrane Posted: July 20, 2019 at 08:28 PM (#5863536)
"We resnt (sic) it because he cheated, and his accomplishments are therefore fake."
Do "We" resent all of the many HOFers who cheated? Either by taking illegal drugs to enhance their performance or tampering with balls and bats? Are their accomplishments therefore fake? By the way, do "We" resent steroid ridden Papi's fake accomplishments? Or does he sail in, no problems? Will that change things?
   29. Mefisto Posted: July 20, 2019 at 09:18 PM (#5863540)
SOSH: That was hilarious.
   30. The Duke Posted: July 20, 2019 at 10:25 PM (#5863551)
Isn’t the answer to the best player, babe Ruth ? How can anyone else even be close. He won 100 games as a pitcher. And he had that great home run trot
   31. BrianBrianson Posted: July 20, 2019 at 10:52 PM (#5863556)
Williams is 14th in career WAR, and missed 5 seasons of his prime to fight in the wars. Fill them in based on the adjacent seasons and he gets to ~170 WAR, 2nd, after Ruth (you might have to slip Mays 10-15 WAR for the WARs too, but it won't help). Without era-adjusting, yeah, it's still Ruth.

With era adjusting, it's probably Bonds. Much bigger talent pool to draw from in the 1980s than the 1910s, league doesn't expand to suit, so the replacement level is probably higher. I don't think you can find a sweet spot of era-adjusting + war credit to let Williams sneak into 1st.
   32. Booey Posted: July 21, 2019 at 12:33 AM (#5863561)
#24 - So did dozens and probably hundreds of other players from his era. None of the other cheaters came close to doing what Bonds did. His accomplishments can't be hand waved away nearly that easily.
   33. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 21, 2019 at 12:53 AM (#5863562)
Plus, there's no evidence Bonds cheated.
   34. DJS Thinks Apples and Oranges are Similar Posted: July 21, 2019 at 01:50 AM (#5863564)
Plus, there's no evidence Bonds cheated.

Well, there is, but amphetamines! (2006 test)
   35. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: July 21, 2019 at 06:09 AM (#5863568)
Plus, there's no evidence Bonds cheated.

I would normally let this pass, but since it was posted by the resident Master Pedant Lawyer, I won't.

Evidence =/= Proof. There absolutely is evidence that Bonds used steroids. You can certainly claim that the evidence does not rise to the level of conclusive proof. But to suggest there is no evidence is wrong.
   36. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: July 21, 2019 at 07:56 AM (#5863572)

Do "We" resent all of the many HOFers who cheated? Either by taking illegal drugs to enhance their performance or tampering with balls and bats?


Bonds isn't the only player not in the HOF due to drug use.
   37. Mefisto Posted: July 21, 2019 at 08:57 AM (#5863573)
you might have to slip Mays 10-15 WAR for the WARs too, but it won't help


?? Mays has 156.4 bWAR. If you give him another 10-15, he's right there with Bonds (162.8), Williams (say, 168), and non-pitching Ruth (162.1).

The big issue is how one timelines Bonds v Mays.
   38. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 21, 2019 at 11:36 AM (#5863577)
Do "We" resent all of the many HOFers who cheated? Either by taking illegal drugs to enhance their performance or tampering with balls and bats? Are their accomplishments therefore fake? By the way, do "We" resent steroid ridden Papi's fake accomplishments? Or does he sail in, no problems? Will that change things?

All the drug users? Yes, I resent them, because they forced other players to either 1) cheat also and endanger their health, or 2) play at a disadvantage. I think Ortiz has no business in the HoF. He's barely qualified before any PED penalty.

I don't give two shits about doctored balls and bats. That's cheating within the lines which is policed by umpires, and has its own set of penalties. One of he major issues with PEDs is it's really hard to police.

Also, even if everyone cheats this way, no one has their health engandered. Tampering with the ball used to be legal.

Just for the record, I would put Bonds and Clemens in the HoF because they were HoFers before they cheated. I just want them to wait a good long time.
   39. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: July 21, 2019 at 11:40 AM (#5863579)
There absolutely is evidence that Bonds used steroids. You can certainly claim that the evidence does not rise to the level of conclusive proof. But to suggest there is no evidence is wrong.

"Do you have any evidence at all?"
"Well, your honor, we've plenty of hearsay and conjecture. Those are kinds of evidence."
   40. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 21, 2019 at 11:46 AM (#5863581)
"Do you have any evidence at all?"
"Well, your honor, we've plenty of hearsay and conjecture. Those are kinds of evidence."


Please. I suppose that whole relationship with BALCO was about obtaining better B-12 shots?
   41. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 21, 2019 at 01:11 PM (#5863590)
So, hearsay, conjecture, and guilt by association?
   42. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 21, 2019 at 02:19 PM (#5863598)
So, hearsay, conjecture, and guilt by association?

Sorry, if you pay large sums to a known drug dealer, that's pretty good evidence you're using drugs.
   43. Cleveland (need new name) fan Posted: July 21, 2019 at 02:55 PM (#5863608)
All the drug users? Yes, I resent them, because they forced other players to either 1) cheat also and endanger their health, or 2) play at a disadvantage. I think Ortiz has no business in the HoF. He's barely qualified before any PED penalty.


This is one of those arguments which sounds good at first blush, but doesn't make much sense when thought about.

This argument implies that players that used PEDs because other players are using them don't deserve the same moral condemnation that some of the others players do since they were "forced" to so they weren't at a disadvantage. Of course, the people who promote this argument never give any of these players this credit, they are all lumped into the same PED user category. The common understanding from Game of Shadows was that Bonds didn't use PEDs for years until his ego couldn't take lesser players using drugs from upstaging him. Greedy, yes, but it was based on others using first. So if you really believe this argument, there should be less moral outrage for Bonds than many of he early adopters like Canseco.

So which is it, are all PED users equally to blame no matter what their reasons or should there be some sort of moral difference between users that wanted to gain an advantage and those who just wanted an even playing field?
   44. Master of the Horse Posted: July 21, 2019 at 03:01 PM (#5863611)
Bonds will get in the Hall of Fame either once the old voters finally cash out or Bonds dies because that is the one completely ###### up macabre trait of the hall where if you belong but have baggage once you die then all is forgotten(?) and you get the ok. Except Joe Jackson I guess.
   45. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: July 21, 2019 at 03:05 PM (#5863612)
Plus, there's no evidence Bonds cheated.
As a lawyer, you should know that making ridiculous statements hurts the credibility of your entire argument.
   46. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: July 21, 2019 at 04:02 PM (#5863624)
Please. I suppose that whole relationship with BALCO was about obtaining better B-12 shots?

Nah. More about an opportunity to quote the late great Lionel Hutz.
   47. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: July 21, 2019 at 04:06 PM (#5863626)
Come on, we know Barry was only using flaxseed oil and anti-arthritis balm.
   48. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 21, 2019 at 04:29 PM (#5863633)
This argument implies that players that used PEDs because other players are using them don't deserve the same moral condemnation that some of the others players do since they were "forced" to so they weren't at a disadvantage. Of course, the people who promote this argument never give any of these players this credit, they are all lumped into the same PED user category. The common understanding from Game of Shadows was that Bonds didn't use PEDs for years until his ego couldn't take lesser players using drugs from upstaging him. Greedy, yes, but it was based on others using first. So if you really believe this argument, there should be less moral outrage for Bonds than many of he early adopters like Canseco.

So which is it, are all PED users equally to blame no matter what their reasons or should there be some sort of moral difference between users that wanted to gain an advantage and those who just wanted an even playing field?


The guys I blame least, are the borderline AAAA just trying to carve out some sort of career. To me Bonds is among the most blameworthy because he was already a multi-millionaire HoF. Greedy is exactly right, and that makes it wore.

If we're playing golf, and you cheat to take a 7 instead of an 8, that's a foible. If you cheat to turn your bogey into par and beat me, that's really annoying.

If it was really bothering Bonds, he should have kept playing clean, and publicly denounced the cheaters.
   49. base ball chick Posted: July 21, 2019 at 07:43 PM (#5863654)
Cleveland (need new name) fan Posted: July 21, 2019 at 02:55 PM (#5863608)

The common understanding from Game of Shadows was that Bonds didn't use PEDs for years until his ego couldn't take lesser players using drugs from upstaging him


- this "common understanding" is because the authors made that crap up and atributed it to junior griffey, who said he never said any such thing. and junior is supposed to be the poster boy for Goodness And Purity, remember?

by the time that bonds is accused of using - what date do you want - 01, when he broke the ATSHRR? he was already extraordinary beyond compare with his "peers" in every way

balco had clients who were not on steroids

the reason to insist he was on steroids is because he didn't fit our insisted upon stereotypes of how all ballplayers are supposed to have a decline at a certain time and in a certain way, like sammy sosa did

and pitchers like clemens shouldn't be aces in their 40s, seeing as how guaranteed saints like maddux and randy johnson and jamie moyer didn't

it's also the - they can't PROVE they didn't rubbish
   50. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 21, 2019 at 08:05 PM (#5863657)
This is one of those arguments which sounds good at first blush, but doesn't make much sense when thought about.
In other words, a bog-standard anti-PED argument.

So if you really believe this argument, there should be less moral outrage for Bonds than many of he early adopters like Canseco.
Also, the outrage under that argument should primarily be for the marginal players who used. The incentive/pressure to use would've been strongest for players for whom it was the difference between playing in the majors vs. minors. Bonds's alleged use wouldn't have taken a job from anyone; Larry Bigbie's use could've.
   51. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 21, 2019 at 08:10 PM (#5863661)

Please. I suppose that whole relationship with BALCO was about obtaining better B-12 shots?
Victor Conte was happy to inculpate numerous professional athlete clients of his as steroid users; he never did so for Bonds.
   52. Tom Nawrocki Posted: July 21, 2019 at 08:24 PM (#5863663)
Also, the outrage under that argument should primarily be for the marginal players who used. The incentive/pressure to use would've been strongest for players for whom it was the difference between playing in the majors vs. minors. Bonds's alleged use wouldn't have taken a job from anyone; Larry Bigbie's use could've.


There was probably a player in the Reds farm system who never made the majors because Pete Rose's greenie usage made him able to take the field 162 times a year.
   53. mathesond Posted: July 21, 2019 at 08:53 PM (#5863665)
"Also, even if everyone cheats this way, no one has their health engandered. Tampering with the ball used to be legal."

Spitballs thrown by Carl Mays excepted, I presume.
   54. base ball chick Posted: July 21, 2019 at 09:34 PM (#5863670)
everyone likes to ignore the obvious about victor conte who had like ZERO reason to refuse to tar bonds too

bonds is just the guy people want to blame for forcing everyone to shoot up
   55. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: July 22, 2019 at 12:11 AM (#5863679)
"Also, even if everyone cheats this way, no one has their health engandered. Tampering with the ball used to be legal."

Spitballs thrown by Carl Mays excepted, I presume.


I was just about to say "Tell that to Ray Chapman," whose death is essentially the reason that tampering with the ball is no longer legal.

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