Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Thursday, August 02, 2018

The most influential role in baseball may cease to exist

The Tampa Bay Rays have dispensed with the traditional starting pitcher—and succeeded

The Fallen Reputation of Billy Jo Robidoux Posted: August 02, 2018 at 09:13 AM | 122 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: pitching, rays, starter usage

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 2 of 2 pages  < 1 2
   101. Howie Menckel Posted: August 03, 2018 at 09:06 PM (#5720675)
flip
   102. RMc Has Bizarre Ideas to Fix Baseball Posted: August 03, 2018 at 09:24 PM (#5720692)
For those who may know or remember the New Jersey Devils successes of the late 1990's they can rejoice or cringe that the Neutral Zone Trap is coming to baseball.

We Red Wings fans do not speak of this dark time in our history.
   103. PreservedFish Posted: August 03, 2018 at 09:32 PM (#5720706)
What the Rays are doing tonight can't be sustainable, can it? You'd need 5 pitchers to get through 9 innings. 5 tomorrow. 5 the next day.
   104. PreservedFish Posted: August 03, 2018 at 10:02 PM (#5720756)
They have indeed used 5 pitchers to get through the night. But the joke's on them - the game is still tied.
   105. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 04, 2018 at 11:39 AM (#5720865)
What the Rays are doing tonight can't be sustainable, can it? You'd need 5 pitchers to get through 9 innings. 5 tomorrow. 5 the next day.

I don't know. I fear we're heading for the 10 position player, 15 pitcher roster. With 3 more guys on the AAA shuttle.

I'm getting close to wanting a rule restricting the number of pitching changes. In 9 innings you get two changes. Every one after that is a free walk for the offense.
   106. Endless Trash Posted: August 04, 2018 at 12:18 PM (#5720875)

Stanek had his first start in late May. Since then he's started 16 games, and pitched in 29. If he held that usage pattern for a full season, he would start about 45 games! We have a modern record within our grasp here people!


How are the win points being distributed with the rays model? Could this usage lead to us seeing another 30 game winner?
   107. PreservedFish Posted: August 04, 2018 at 12:36 PM (#5720881)
I don't know. I fear we're heading for the 10 position player, 15 pitcher roster. With 3 more guys on the AAA shuttle.


The entire organization could just stop developing SPs. If you had Max Scherzer obviously it would be insane to use him like this, but what if you got to totally ignore starting pitchers?

I'm getting close to wanting a rule restricting the number of pitching changes. In 9 innings you get two changes. Every one after that is a free walk for the offense.


I'm strongly in favor of limiting the number of pitchers on the roster. I think it's the no-brainer solution. It has minimal overt impact on the game itself, it's basically just an administrative move. If a manager has only 5 or 6 relievers, then I think he should be allowed to use a LOOGY if he so chooses. He'll need to compensate by getting more innings out of another guy. And if it incentives the development of Kieschnick types, so much the better.

But in the meantime, I'm having fun watching the crazy Rays do their thing.

   108. PreservedFish Posted: August 04, 2018 at 12:38 PM (#5720883)
The Rays lost in the 10th by the way. Their 6th pitcher of the night. But they did only allow 3 runs in 10 innings, so you can't say it didn't work. Tonight the team's last actual starter, Blake Snell, is scheduled to go. Knowing they'd likely get 5+ IP from one guy tonight probably allowed them to do what they did yesterday.
   109. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 04, 2018 at 12:42 PM (#5720887)
I'm strongly in favor of limiting the number of pitchers on the roster. I think it's the no-brainer solution. It has minimal overt impact on the game itself, it's basically just an administrative move. If a manager has only 5 or 6 relievers, then I think he should be allowed to use a LOOGY if he so chooses. He'll need to compensate by getting more innings out of another guy. And if it incentives the development of Kieschnick types, so much the better.

Agree. But if somehow that doesn't work, I'm in favor of more draconian rules.

But in the meantime, I'm having fun watching the crazy Rays do their thing.

I don't find it fun. I don't find shifts fun either. I'm not really big on rooting for front office and coaching arbitrage; it's like rooting for derivatives and CDO traders.

That's one reason I really don't watch the NFL. When the coaches are more important than the players, it's a pale imitation of sports. If I were an NFL fan anymore, I'd be strongly in favor of preventing play calling from the sidelines. The QB should have to call the offensive plays, and the defensive captain the D plays. No microphones. I'd also eliminate substitutions within a series.
   110. Endless Trash Posted: August 04, 2018 at 12:56 PM (#5720892)
We get it snapper. You don't like anything that's happened since 1940. You don't need to post about it in every single thread.
   111. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 04, 2018 at 01:03 PM (#5720896)
We get it snapper. You don't like anything that's happened since 1940. You don't need to post about it in every single thread.

I really liked 1970's through mid-90s baseball. It's gotten worse as entertainment since then. It's the worst now that I've seen in my life. Is that something we're just supposed to ignore? Even silly ball was better than what we have now.
   112. PreservedFish Posted: August 04, 2018 at 01:24 PM (#5720903)
The shift is great. I feel like it doesn't deserve to get lumped in with modern bullpen management. It makes the game more fluid. It both rewards and incentivizes versatile play.
   113. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 04, 2018 at 01:38 PM (#5720908)
The shift is great. I feel like it doesn't deserve to get lumped in with modern bullpen management. It makes the game more fluid. It both rewards and incentivizes versatile play.

I agree with your last two points. I would allow it, because it might help slay the greater evil of TTO baseball. But, I still don't enjoy it.
   114. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 04, 2018 at 01:41 PM (#5720910)
I would allow it, because it might help slay the greater evil of TTO baseball.


Not following the logic. If shifting makes it harder to get on base via a hit, why would that make home runs and walks less valuable?
   115. PreservedFish Posted: August 04, 2018 at 01:46 PM (#5720913)
I think you have the causality backwards, Misirlou. The shift is a reaction to hitters that only want to pull the ball towards the fences.
   116. SoSH U at work Posted: August 04, 2018 at 01:48 PM (#5720914)
Not following the logic. If shifting makes it harder to get on base via a hit, why would that make home runs and walks less valuable?


Presumably, because if the shift is especially effective against pull hitters (typically guys who hit for power), then its continued use could lead teams to begin to employ ballplayers who put the ball in play and can hit to all fields.
   117. PreservedFish Posted: August 04, 2018 at 01:53 PM (#5720917)
Imagine you're a hitter. Say you have two approaches. You can try and hit the snot out of the ball, which probably means you pull the ball, and you also miss more pitches, which increases Ks and BBs. Or you can shorten up and make contact. More likely to spray it to the opposite field. Less likely to K or BB or HR.

Against a standard defense, if you try approach #1, and you don't quite hit a homer, the ball might fall in, because there are 3-4 fielders in the pull field.
Against the shift, if you try approach #1, and you don't quite hit a homer, the ball is less likely to fall in, because there are now 5 fielders in the pull field.

The likelihood or value of the HR K and BB don't change. But your non-TTO results get worse.

Unfortunately, basically all of the hitters so far have decided that they don't care, they'd rather not mess with their approach. They accept the poorer results. And if you're Joey Gallo and such a high % of your PAs already end in a TTO, the shift has limited impact anyway.
   118. . Posted: August 04, 2018 at 03:23 PM (#5720963)
German 1: You know, this Hitler guy kind of sucks. I liked the Weimar Republic better.

German 2: Get off my lawn!!!!
   119. PreservedFish Posted: August 04, 2018 at 09:54 PM (#5721167)
The Rays continue to surprise. Tonight Blake Snell threw 4 innings, perhaps a planned light workload in his first start back from injury. He was relieved by Yonny Chirinos - the rare Ray that has a claim to being an actual starting pitcher - who went 5 innings and completed the game. The two of them only allowed one earned run, and Cash's restraint in allowing a "starter" to pitch in the late innings during a tie game is both surprising and admirable. It looks like they've activated one other actual starter, Jake Faria. Who knows what will come next.
   120. PreservedFish Posted: August 05, 2018 at 07:41 AM (#5721206)
Probable starter tonight: Hunter Wood. Wood is another tweener, averaging about 2 IP per appearance, regardless of whether it's starting or relieving. Yarbrough has rested for 4 days, so we can guess that he'll take over in the 2nd or 3rd inning. Do the Rays announce their "middler?" Do I need to start following Rays twitter accounts or something?
   121. Russ Posted: August 05, 2018 at 07:47 AM (#5721207)

The Rays continue to surprise. Tonight Blake Snell threw 4 innings, perhaps a planned light workload in his first start back from injury. He was relieved by Yonny Chirinos - the rare Ray that has a claim to being an actual starting pitcher - who went 5 innings and completed the game. The two of them only allowed one earned run, and Cash's restraint in allowing a "starter" to pitch in the late innings during a tie game is both surprising and admirable. It looks like they've activated one other actual starter, Jake Faria. Who knows what will come next.


I would love to see this become the standard pitching model. Four man rotation, three to four long men more or less pitching on a rotation who could also spot start, one or two situational fireballers, one knuckleballer to fill in when things go off the rails. I think most starting pitchers could go three to four decent innings if they didn’t need to worry about throwing the whole game. Then they are able to throw more often, and with regularized playing time, you can avoid fatigue.
   122. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 05, 2018 at 12:07 PM (#5721242)
I would love to see this become the standard pitching model. Four man rotation, three to four long men more or less pitching on a rotation who could also spot start, one or two situational fireballers, one knuckleballer to fill in when things go off the rails. I think most starting pitchers could go three to four decent innings if they didn’t need to worry about throwing the whole game. Then they are able to throw more often, and with regularized playing time, you can avoid fatigue.

I'd hate that. Watching a good starter work deep into the game is one of the real pleasures of baseball. How he mixes up 3 or 4 pitches. How he varies his approach to a batter the 2nd and 3rd time he faces them.

If they go to this model, almost every single pitcher is going to be a 6'6" guy throwing fastball/slider at 95+, throwing as hard as he can on every pitch.
Page 2 of 2 pages  < 1 2

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

News

All News | Prime News

Old-School Newsstand


BBTF Partner

Dynasty League Baseball

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
JPWF13
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

Newsblog2018 Cy Young Award winners | MLB.com
(1 - 7:27am, Nov 15)
Last: The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott)

NewsblogOT - Catch-All Pop Culture Extravaganza (November 2018)
(252 - 7:27am, Nov 15)
Last: Lassus

NewsblogSale of Baseball Prospectus
(76 - 7:22am, Nov 15)
Last: Lassus

NewsblogManny Machado: Yankees owner Hal Steinbrenner wants 'essential' chat
(1 - 7:14am, Nov 15)
Last: The Duke

Hall of MeritMock 2018 Today’s Game Hall of Fame Ballot
(40 - 6:59am, Nov 15)
Last: homerwannabee

NewsblogOT - NBA Thread (2018-19 season kickoff edition)
(2258 - 2:08am, Nov 15)
Last: Tin Angel

NewsblogMike Elias Orioles general manager | MLB.com
(16 - 2:01am, Nov 15)
Last: DFA

NewsblogOT: Soccer Thread (2018-19 season begins!)
(1202 - 11:27pm, Nov 14)
Last: Count Vorror Rairol Mencoon (CoB)

NewsblogAtlanta/Southeast BBTF meet up
(68 - 10:32pm, Nov 14)
Last: McCoy

NewsblogZack Greinke trade makes sense for these teams
(11 - 10:20pm, Nov 14)
Last: shoewizard

NewsblogProspects who stood out in Arizona Fall League
(2 - 10:13pm, Nov 14)
Last: shoewizard

NewsblogTime running out for officials to reach stadium deal with Rays
(4 - 10:11pm, Nov 14)
Last: Stormy JE

NewsblogPrimer Dugout (and link of the day) 11-14-2018
(23 - 9:49pm, Nov 14)
Last: Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant

Sox TherapyThe Greatest Red Sox Team...EVER!!!!
(74 - 8:45pm, Nov 14)
Last: Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature

NewsblogDodgers Rumors: All signs pointing to J.T. Realmuto being a Dodger
(1 - 8:34pm, Nov 14)
Last: the Hugh Jorgan returns

Page rendered in 0.2990 seconds
46 querie(s) executed