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Friday, August 11, 2017

The Multiple Paths to a Tigers Rebuild

If the Tigers want to be competitive again by 2020, they must do more. They need to focus on obtaining prospects nearly ready for a major-league role, something both Candelario and Lugo are. In this vein, moving their youngest pitching talent, like Michael Fulmer or Daniel Norris, to make teams interested in taking on the expensive contracts of older players like Justin Verlander, Jordan Zimmermann, or Justin Upton wouldn’t make sense for the Tigers. Fulmer, who’s under club control until 2023, is precisely the kind of young, talented player the team needs to retain and use as the anchor of the future pitching staff. They need to keep all the young, cheap players they can, and not move them just to cut costs.

On the other side, one could look at the Tigers rebuild as a long-term project. Perhaps the team could decide to acquire talent over the course of the next several years, searching for players (such as Isaac Paredes, for example) who won’t be ready for the majors for awhile, taking the time to develop them within the farm system, growing proper major-league talent, and building a winning team from within. This is a strategy the Tigers have never really used before, having focused more on blockbuster trades for players like Miguel Cabrera, Prince Fielder, or Justin Upton to fill the necessary holes on the field.

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: August 11, 2017 at 11:28 AM | 46 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: August 11, 2017 at 11:52 AM (#5511241)
On the other side, one could look at the Tigers rebuild as a long-term project.


But that would be nerdy and stupid, so maybe not.
   2. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: August 11, 2017 at 12:15 PM (#5511262)
Plus Snapper will get really mad at them.
   3. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 11, 2017 at 12:22 PM (#5511264)
taking on the expensive contracts of older players like Justin Verlander, Jordan Zimmermann, or Justin Upton


I can see why they might want to trade Verlander and Zimmermann, but why Upton? he's a very good player, still reletively young, and under contract for 4 more years. If you plan to be good in 2020, wouldn't it be wise to have a good left fielder already on the team?
   4. cmd600 Posted: August 11, 2017 at 12:36 PM (#5511276)
but why Upton?


Because it's not great management to burn $45M over the next two years just to have a good player, but at full market price, when you will contend again. You can almost certainly buy a new $20M/year player in 2020 to replace Upton, and put that $45M to use in 2020 and beyond. Besides, unlike Verlander and Zimmermann, you might actually get a prospect that will be above average in 2020 for Upton.
   5. TDF didn't lie, he just didn't remember Posted: August 11, 2017 at 12:36 PM (#5511277)
On the other side, one could look at the Tigers rebuild as a long-term project. Perhaps the team could decide to acquire talent over the course of the next several years, searching for players (such as Isaac Paredes, for example) who won’t be ready for the majors for awhile, taking the time to develop them within the farm system, growing proper major-league talent, and building a winning team from within.
I don't know that I like this strategy in the abstract. Too many players look really good and projectable at 18-19 but then flame out. Yeah, the Astros and Cubs have generally succeeded at this model (and their talent evaluators should be lauded), but there's also a fair amount of luck involved (see: Buxton, Brian).
In this vein, moving their youngest pitching talent, like Michael Fulmer or Daniel Norris, to make teams interested in taking on the expensive contracts of older players like Justin Verlander, Jordan Zimmermann, or Justin Upton wouldn’t make sense for the Tigers.
If there's a talented player that's untradable, it's Upton. If he continues to hit well, he'll opt out at the end of the year; if he gets hurt or falls off a cliff, he won't and you're stuck with that contract.
   6. Tim D Posted: August 11, 2017 at 01:30 PM (#5511309)
Economics play a role, and it's not just payroll. The TV deal is up after 2018. If the Tigers move Verlander, Kinsler, Upton et al, getting young guys in return, attendance may crater and that would hurt the TV deal. Red Wings and Pistons have a shiny new arena, and the Lions are still (unbelievably) the #1 pro sports topic in Detroit.

Ilitch Jr. is an unknown commodity. Is he going to spend freely like dad, or is he going to be more conservative? The front office insists they are not under orders to cut payroll. I'm sure that's literally true, but I'm also sure there is strong encouragement to get cheaper. Is Ilitch going to stay with a baseball lifer like Avila or look for the next Theo? Ausmus is very unpopular, and the jury is out on Avila. No one is terribly happy with what he has done so far. So it's hard to predict which path they will take when there is uncertainty about the front office.

Cabrera is immovable, especially coming off a terrible year. Verlander is tough more because of PR than anything else. If they "dump" him, the fan revolt would be loud and ugly. Upton may indeed opt out; he is already on record as saying he would prefer not to be in a rebuild situation. My guess is he does, and the Tigers move Kinsler for a couple of magic beans. Norris is low value now, no point in moving him. Someone will have to blow them away with an offer for Fulmer; it's too risky unless they get a couple of certifiable stud ready to play prospects. Zimmerman has been terrible; I expect they will hold on hoping for a good first half in 2018. Iglesias won't bring much if they trade him. So I am expecting minimal movement this year, maybe Upton leaves, Kinsler gets traded. They won't do much in free agency. Maybe a bullpen arm, a platoon OF, bring Alex Avila back (again). They will suck next year, and that may be the end for Avila, if he's still around.

With the way their roster is constructed there aren't a lot of options. A "total teardown" doesn't do much; they just don't have a lot to trade. A Verlander or Miggy trade would involve eating salary, moderate prospects, and losing attendance, so what's the advantage? Both are still popular, climbing the franchise record lists, and not blocking anybody. I think they'll both stay at least 2 more years. As a Tiger fan, I'm hunkering down for a grim few years, a quick re-set isn't possible, and a "teardown" doesn't accomplish much more. They put on band-aids and hope for the best.
   7. madvillain Posted: August 11, 2017 at 01:33 PM (#5511310)
With the way their roster is constructed there aren't a lot of options. A "total teardown" doesn't do much; they just don't have a lot to trade. A Verlander or Miggy trade would involve eating salary, moderate prospects, and losing attendance, so what's the advantage? Both are still popular, climbing the franchise record lists, and not blocking anybody. I think they'll both stay at least 2 more years. As a Tiger fan, I'm hunkering down for a grim few years, a quick re-set isn't possible, and a "teardown" doesn't accomplish much more. They put on band-aids and hope for the best.


Let me summarize: they are ######.
   8. Rally Posted: August 11, 2017 at 01:40 PM (#5511317)
but why Upton? he's a very good player, still reletively young, and under contract for 4 more years. If you plan to be good in 2020, wouldn't it be wise to have a good left fielder already on the team?


How sure are you that Upton is under contract beyond the season? If he thinks someone will offer more than 4/88, then he can opt out. He currently has an 133 OPS+ in his age 29 season. Last year Cespedes had a 135 in his age 30 season, and got 4/110.
   9. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: August 11, 2017 at 01:45 PM (#5511318)
This place is now Tigers Think Factory.

Zimmerman has been terrible; I expect they will hold on hoping for a good first half in 2018.
Zimmermann (two Ns) has to be even less movable than Verlander at this point. The other two guys at least have history with Detroit, Ziimmermann's been nothing but bad. His peripherals are terrifying. Verlander's valuable. The Tigers should openly declare they'll eat a significant portion of that contract to get good talent in return.

*Also, holy crap. Another six more years of Miggy at +$30 million per. If this year is any indication, that could end worse than Pujols' contract.
   10. Tim D Posted: August 11, 2017 at 01:54 PM (#5511323)
Tigers have to be terrified watching Miggy fall off a cliff this year. Pitchers are blowing inside fastballs by him that he used to crush. Hopefully it's his back, or he needs glasses, or something. Cuz if he is a .750 OPS cleanup hitter it will be an unmitigated free-fall. He was .956 just last year, so I guess there is hope his decline won't be as bad as it looks right now.
   11. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: August 11, 2017 at 01:58 PM (#5511329)
If Cabrera heals up and either Norris or Boyd (or even Zimmermann) break through and the bullpen holds up, the Tigers can contend for the playoffs in 2018. The only reason they'd "rebuild" was because the payroll was too high for the market and Mr. I pere doesn't want to continue to support it. In purely baseball terms, there's more than enough there to win with.

The actual example of what everyone wrongly thinks the Tigers are, is the Giants.

   12. BDC Posted: August 11, 2017 at 02:03 PM (#5511335)
Verlander is tough more because of PR than anything else. If they "dump" him, the fan revolt would be loud and ugly. Upton may indeed opt out; he is already on record as saying he would prefer not to be in a rebuild situation

I can't be the only person who thought "Kate" in that context.
   13. bfan Posted: August 11, 2017 at 02:03 PM (#5511336)
Poor Justin Upton; he keeps getting shuffled around the country while teams rebuild without him (Braves; then Padres; now Tigers). And, as said above, he is pretty darn good. I would rather habe in in LF for that finally good Braves team in 2018. The Padres can have Peterson; Peterson; Freid; and Smith back.
   14. Tim D Posted: August 11, 2017 at 02:15 PM (#5511344)
"If Cabrera heals up and either Norris or Boyd (or even Zimmermann) break through and the bullpen holds up, the Tigers can contend for the playoffs in 2018."

We don't even know if Cabrera is hurt. I sure as hell hope he is but..... They should eat the last year of Victor's deal and put Miggy at DH even if he hates it. He has to do it sometime and the sooner the better. Hopefully he looks more like Ortiz and less like Pujols.

Norris is always hurt but I suppose he could turn a corner. I don't have much hope for Boyd and Zimmermann is awful. And you are ignoring crappy production from 3B, CF, SS, RF, etc. Bullpen? This is Detroit. We are cursed, could get Jansen and Britton both and they would suddenly suck.
   15. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: August 11, 2017 at 02:35 PM (#5511373)
We don't even know if Cabrera is hurt.
Cabrera's been playing through a lingering groin injury, and he's had lower back issues that haven't been severe enough to DL him but plenty enough to sap his power. He's also going to be 35 at the start of next season. Albert Pujols'll tell you that injuries crop up a lot more often once you hit a certain age.
   16. TDF didn't lie, he just didn't remember Posted: August 11, 2017 at 02:37 PM (#5511380)
Zimmerman has been terrible; I expect they will hold on hoping for a good first half in 2018.

Zimmermann (two Ns) has to be even less movable than Verlander at this point.

Not only is Zimmermann untradable, he has full NT protection thru next season.
   17. TDF didn't lie, he just didn't remember Posted: August 11, 2017 at 02:39 PM (#5511384)
Cabrera's been playing through a lingering groin injury, and he's had lower back issues that haven't been severe enough to DL him but plenty enough to sap his power.
How do you know this is true? Seriously - even here in Detroit, there's only 1 talking head who even guesses he's hurt.
   18. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: August 11, 2017 at 02:46 PM (#5511398)
I watch a lot of Tigers games (Mario Impemba is one of my favorite baseball voices from his days with the Angels) and the Bless You Boys blog on SB Nation have been writing about it all year.
   19. Tim D Posted: August 11, 2017 at 02:51 PM (#5511410)
FWIW, Miggy insists he isn't hurt. After the season he may admit it. Clearly something is wrong. He will get hurt more as he ages. I think the Red Sox mitigated that with Ortiz, the Tigers should do the same. VMart isn't hitting much more than Iglesias for chrissakes.
   20. Tim D Posted: August 11, 2017 at 02:54 PM (#5511417)
They would probably be better right now moving Miggy to DH, Castellanos to 1B and let Candelario have a shot at 3B.
   21. cmd600 Posted: August 11, 2017 at 03:39 PM (#5511479)
The TV deal is up after 2018.


The Tigers arent getting $60M/year (what Verlander, Upton, Kinsler make) more in a tv deal and attendance after they win 75 games with those three than if they win 65 without. It isn't cost effective to pay guys just for a tv deal if you still stink.
   22. Ziggy: The Platonic Form of Russell Branyan Posted: August 11, 2017 at 03:46 PM (#5511483)
Wow, Miggy has been exactly replacement level this year. That... that's not good.
   23. Tim D Posted: August 11, 2017 at 04:02 PM (#5511493)
The last TV deal was $500M for 10 years. It may double this time around. It may not make a $60M a year difference, but having some marketable players will make a difference in the TV contract, in attendance, in what advertisers pay, etc, etc.
   24. No longer interested in this website Posted: August 11, 2017 at 04:13 PM (#5511498)
Miggy is hurt. Not BADLY, but enough that most players in his condition would beg out. He's always been a warrior and he never uses injuries as an excuse. He won an MVP one year when he was about 85 percent and never complained. His groin is hurt, and it's probably always going to bother him, he's had problems with it for almost four years now. His legs and back nag him. A lesser player would sit out once a week and miss 30 games or so, but Miggy is the type of guy who believes he should play to earn his contract. As a Tiger fan, I admire that. Miggy with a 100 OPS+ is still a joy to watch and valuable as a leader and with his game instincts. He still changes the pitches that others see in the lineup.

I can't understand the panic over the Tigers situation. Recent history has proven that teams can "rebuild" quickly and be back in the hunt. This is the era of 82 wins keeping you in contention. It's also trendy to say a team "sucks" when they go from 86 wins to 74, but we all know that those type of things happen now and again. The Tigers ARE a flawed team, but just last year they battled to the last day of the season for a playoff spot, and three years ago they were winning their fourth straight division title. Call me a geezer, but "sucking" means more like 4-5 years of dreadful, listless play. Not missing the playoffs three straight seasons.

Ausmus and Avila should be let go, and I'd jigger some of the roster (especially the pitching staff) and go after some young, cheap arms in free agency or via trade. Sure, the lineup is bare, and the outfield scares me, with Upton probably leaving via his option, but this is a team that could still win 81-85 games and be in the hunt in a very, very weak division.

Oh and a new TV deal WILL MATTER A LOT. Detroit is a sports town and they love the Tigers. The team will have money flooding in for years and years. It remains to be seen if the Ilitch family will keep the team that they never really wanted (it was Mike's dream). If they are going to sell, why would they tear it all apart and sell off the stars still under contract?

Put the tape over the panic button, Tiger fans, this is not the Matt Millen Era.
   25. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: August 11, 2017 at 04:18 PM (#5511502)
I'd be a lot more optimistic about their chances to rebuild and contend soon if they hadn't traded J.D. Martinez. That's a lot of offense they're going to have to replace. I'm more or less agree with the rest of that assessment.
   26. cmd600 Posted: August 11, 2017 at 04:44 PM (#5511517)
I'd be a lot more optimistic about their chances to rebuild and contend soon if they hadn't traded J.D. Martinez. That's a lot of offense they're going to have to replace. I'm more or less agree with the rest of that assessment


They still have the exact same chance to have Martinez in 2018 and beyond that they did a couple months ago.

It may not make a $60M a year difference


It won't, and its pretty baffling to me that this is a point even getting considered. Fox Sports isn't stupid enough to give the Tigers $100M/year from 2027-2037 instead of $50M because the Tigers have Verlander in 2019.
   27. TDF didn't lie, he just didn't remember Posted: August 11, 2017 at 04:49 PM (#5511521)
this is a team that could still win 81-85 games and be in the hunt in a very, very weak division.
Um, Cleveland isn't a "very, very weak" team. They've underperformed their pythag record by 6 wins; a bit of normal luck and they'd be on pace to win 95 games. Plus, just last year largely the same team took the World Series to the 10th inning of game 7.
   28. Tim D Posted: August 11, 2017 at 04:55 PM (#5511526)
"Going to suck" means for me that there will be little chance of contending September baseball. They "suck" right now, not to mean they can't be entertaining. I don't think they are going to be the Phillies; their minor league pitching is decent, and Miggy should manage to be better than Ryan Howard, at least. Just don't see how they compete with Cleveland and upwardly mobile Twins and White Sox the next couple of years. They have put up enough runs to win this year, but that's really going to take a hit with Upton and JD gone. Unless Miggy comes back big-time, they keep Kinsler, and Castellanos starts hitting, they will scuffle next year to score. Pitching has been terrible and outside of Verlander, Fulmer, Greene and possibly Norris there just isn't much. Nothing to trade and the free agent market is very thin. The good minor league pitchers are all AA and below. Except Jimenez I guess, who looks like he will take awhile to get established. Buck Farmer, Drew VerHagen, Matt Boyd, the corpse of Zimmermann, Bruce (headcase) Rondon, Alex Wilson. Blah.
   29. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: August 11, 2017 at 04:56 PM (#5511527)
There isn't even a reasonable debate over whether he's hurt. He obviously is.

The Orioles are a game under .500 and they're 1.5 games out of a playoff berth. "Contention" means you're .500 or better in mid-August. With a healthy Cabrera and JD Martinez, and a competent manager, the Tigers would have been that this year.

"Blowing it all up" when all you have to do to be a contender is be .500 through the first 115 games is utterly senseless.
   30. Tim D Posted: August 11, 2017 at 05:02 PM (#5511532)
I'm not wild about Ausmus but I don't get the snark. His bullpen management leaves a lot to be desired, but I have the same issue with most managers. He's not a rah-rah guy. Most managers aren't. Could they have been better the last 3 years with another manager? Maybe. But not for sure. Ausmus has done enough that he will get another shot.
   31. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: August 11, 2017 at 05:02 PM (#5511533)
To your point, there are four teams within a game and a half of the American League wild-card slot, and three of those teams are under .500. For teams like the Tigers, like with my Angels, being locked into a bunch of expensive contracts no longer means a death sentence for half a decade. They just have to be mediocre + 1.
   32. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 11, 2017 at 05:07 PM (#5511535)
"Blowing it all up" when all you have to do to be a contender is be .500 through the first 115 games is utterly senseless.

Especially when your expensive players have no trade value. If the Tigers were 52-62 but Cabrera, Verlander, and Kinsler were playing great, so that you had offers of real prospects for them, maybe you trade them, so you can reload faster.

But, when your big contracts are un-tradable without paying most of the money, just to get B- prospects, what's the point?
   33. madvillain Posted: August 11, 2017 at 05:20 PM (#5511539)
Heyman just reported that Kinsler has been claimed.
   34. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: August 11, 2017 at 05:52 PM (#5511550)
There are multiple possible Step Twos to a successful rebuild for the Tigers, but, regrettably, there is only one Step One: Fire Al Avila.

FWIW, Miggy insists he isn't hurt. After the season he may admit it. Clearly something is wrong. He will get hurt more as he ages. I think the Red Sox mitigated that with Ortiz, the Tigers should do the same. VMart isn't hitting much more than Iglesias for chrissakes.


Similarly, Andrew McCutchen spent most of last year playing poorly and insisting that he wasn't hurt, and admitted later in the offseason that actually, yeah, he totally was.
   35. Bug Selig Posted: August 11, 2017 at 06:42 PM (#5511575)
Could they have been better the last 3 years with another manager? Maybe. But not for sure. Ausmus has done enough that he will get another shot.
They were a veteran team poised to contend and just needed a steady hand on the rudder. They hired a guy who had never managed before and whines every time he is asked a question. I'd be very surprised if he hasn't been called a #####, to his face, in the Tigers' clubhouse. Wrong hire at the wrong time. If people thought he was an up-and-coming genius, let him get his OJT with the Padres.
   36. Walt Davis Posted: August 11, 2017 at 07:39 PM (#5511598)
Sure, 500 puts you in contention for the AL WC this year. But this year in the NL it's gonna be 90+ wins; last year in the AL it took 89 wins, 86 the year before that.

B-R puts this year's Tigers payroll at $176 M ... and already projects next year's to $176 if they decline Kinsler's option. Unless Illitch's kids are willing to increase payroll to $200 M, there's no veteran talent coming in the door.

Meanwhile look at that roster and tell me who you can expect to be better next year? Miggy and that's about it and it's not clear if Miggy will be better in the sense of being an average 1B/DH or better in the sense of being a 4-WAR player (or even full Aaron). Norris maybe. The only major asset they have is Fulmer. (Upton is also valuable but the opt-out makes him a tough one to trade.)

Miggy is probably untradeable and trading Verlander for nothing but a bit of salary relief doesn't accomplish anything important so there's no clear reason for them not to ride it out. But unless their farm system is ready to produce now, they have almost no chance of contending over the next 2-3 years.

many players look really good and projectable at 18-19 but then flame out. Yeah, the Astros and Cubs have generally succeeded at this model

Definitely not the Cubs model. Bryant, Schwarber and Happ were all high college draft picks -- Bryant was probably ready the day he was drafted, the other two were ready within 1-2 years. Rizzo, Russell, Hendricks, Arrieta were mature prospects developed by other teams (a semi-failed prospect in Arrieta's case). They did develop the kdis Baez (drafted by Hendry) and Almora (drafted by Theo with a Hendry pick) and Contreras took a winding path to the majors but that is certainly to Theo's credit.

The point being the Cubs got from crap to winners by focusing on ML-ready and near-ready prospects, not 18-19 year-old draft choices. The Cubs generally got good return from their tear-down trades (all pitchers, nearly all deadline deals in FA years).

The Astros generally got crap return in their tear-down trades. I'm not familiar enough with the Astros to assess how much credit the current FO deserves for their development but Springer, Altuve and Keuchel were already in the organization. They of course drafted the HS pick Correa who has turned out awesome and done so quickly. McCullers was a 1s HS pick who also matured quickly. Bregman was a college pick in the majors a year later. The Astros have used 4 1st or supplemental picks in the last 5 drafts so they have been drafting young much more than the Cubs although none of those later picks have yet paid off (but Tucker and Whitley are highly rated).

The main thing the Cubs and Astros did was play wretched baseball for 3-4 years and secure high draft picks then drafted well. But the Astros wouldn't be where they are today without Altuve, Kuechel and Springer (talent already on-hand) and the Cubs wouldn't be where they are without acquiring mature prospects through trades (and doing an incredible job identifying those prospects).

   37. Tim D Posted: August 11, 2017 at 09:50 PM (#5511675)
I've watched 100+ Ausmus post-game interviews and he doesn't whine any more than Leyland did. It's not his fault they replaced Scherzer with Alfredo Simon. They are 10 games over their pythag for his 3+ years and I haven't heard a whiff of anybody complaining in the clubhouse. You sound like the radio talk show call in guys. He's not the greatest but it's not his fault guys have gotten old and hurt.
   38. The Honorable Ardo Posted: August 13, 2017 at 06:42 PM (#5512477)
TimD, he's not terrible (Robin Ventura was clearly worse), but he's not a good in-game strategic manager. When the situation calls for outside-the-box thinking, he can't adapt. I now live in Chicago, and I much prefer Joe Maddon's tinkering - even when it doesn't work - to Ausmus's stand-pat philosophy.

As for the Tigers' rebuild, I'd keep Verlander around unless they get a Godfather offer, but I'd be open to moving Cabrera (even for a minimal return).
   39. Cooper Nielson Posted: August 14, 2017 at 03:12 AM (#5512585)
And you are ignoring crappy production from 3B, CF, SS, RF, etc.

Have you checked out CF Mikie Mahtook lately? He's had a blistering second half and is up to .298/.347/.479 on the season in about 260 PA. In center, he's made quite a few highlight-reel catches, though overall his defense has probably been closer to "passable" than "great."

It's possibly a mirage, but maybe he's a legit late bloomer.
   40. Tim D Posted: August 14, 2017 at 01:52 PM (#5512930)
Mahtook has been a pleasant surprise, but CF was a disaster the first half. Hopefully it's not a mirage; I like him. Castellanos in RF isn't going to help him cover center.

Yeah, if the Tigers could get Joe Maddon to take the job I'd be all for removing Ausmus. Not holding my breath. Ausmus took over a flawed team, made the playoffs his 1st year with Scherzer as ace and VMart having a career year. VMart has done mostly squat since, Scherzer is gone, and Anibal Sanchez turned into a pumpkin. These are things that have nothing/little to do with Brad Ausmus. I don't see glaring mistakes (except for the strange fascination with Bruce Rondon) and I see a team that is hustling and competing, just not good enough. I expect Ausmus to be fired because there isn't much else they can do to stir things up. A crap shoot whether they get anybody better, and Ausmus will get another gig, likely sooner rather than later. I think Avila will get another year, maybe two, but absent marked improvement will be gone no later than 2020.
   41. Bug Selig Posted: August 14, 2017 at 07:09 PM (#5513147)
I've watched 100+ Ausmus post-game interviews and he doesn't whine any more than Leyland did.
That's simply not true. He rarely answers a "why" question with a "because" answer. He goes into this weird game of trying to prove he's smarter than the reporter. Leyland certainly got frustrated with reporters, but he'd give a vanilla, self-evident answer and move on. Orders of magnitude less defensive.
   42. Tim D Posted: August 14, 2017 at 09:36 PM (#5513232)
Yeah, he tries to explain rather than just blow it off like most managers/coaches do. Guess it's because he has a college education and can speak in full sentences. So that's it, your grounds for immediate termination? Even the Detroit media, on the receiving end of this "whining" as you mistakenly characterize it, and who mostly share the fans opinion that he should be gone, don't criticize him for his post-game interviews. He will win if he gets a chance in the right situation. Detroit isn't it. Do I want him over Joe Maddon or Earl Weaver in the World Series? No brainer. But a lot of demonstrably worse managers have been successful.
   43. Tim D Posted: August 14, 2017 at 09:42 PM (#5513236)
PS: when you accuse me of lying, please confine yourself to something objectively verifiable rather than trot out your BS subjective opinion about what constitutes "whining." You say he whines, I say he doesn't. It's a disagreement, not an untruth.
   44. No longer interested in this website Posted: August 15, 2017 at 12:24 AM (#5513368)
Ausmus isn't whiny...he's defensive and arrogant. He is that "I'm smarter than anyone else in the room guy." That type of personality is great at getting hired, but after that they have to produce. If you're Bill Belichek or Earl Weaver and you got the #### to back it up, you succeed, otherwise you're just Bobby Valentine. Ausmus is not even as good a manager as Bobby Valentine.

A big part of being manager is the presence you bring to the team and the organization. Ausmus is about as bad as anyone in the game right now at that. He's dull, he's distant, and he's arrogant. I would like that just fine if he had the player recognition of Bill Parcells or if he managed a game as deftly as Mike Scioiscia. But he doesn't have those other skills. He'll never win anywhere. The fans dislike him with good reason.
   45. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: August 15, 2017 at 07:03 AM (#5513397)
Being arrogant to the media and being arrogant to your players are two very different things, and thus comparisons to Bobby Valentine are usually unfair.
   46. Tim D Posted: August 15, 2017 at 12:15 PM (#5513583)
The fans dislike Ausmus because the Tigers have a huge payroll which means they should win and they aren't winning. That's it, end of story. Period. Any other notion about his unpopularity is delusional. I don't think he's great; I wish they had someone who would think a little more outside the box. But what he has gotten out of this team is about what we should have reasonably expected. Miggy is hitting at replacement level, VMart is terrible, Castellanos continues to be mediocre, Zimmermann is toast, Sanchez is toast, etc, etc, etc. When players fail it is fair to put some tiny percentage of the blame on a manager. But it's tiny. If Ausmus was truly disliked within the team, or by the media, we would have heard about it by now. We haven't. The fans don't like him because we aren't in a pennant race, and with "stars" like Miggy, JV, Upton and VMart we "should" be. Perhaps if he were flashier the fans would have given him more time. I doubt it. The franchise is paying the price of all those "win one for Mr. I" seasons, the fans don't like it, and "fire the manager" is the easiest "fix."

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