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Friday, July 30, 2004

The Official Mets Fan Self-Immolation Thread

For those of you who can’t bear to continue. (Thanks to Gold Star For Robot Boy for the idea.)

The definitely immoral Eric Enders Posted: July 30, 2004 at 11:44 PM | 353 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: mets

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   201. The Wilpons Must Go (Tom D) Posted: August 01, 2004 at 02:44 AM (#769390)
Vladdy hit an HR tonight.

Anyway, the boys are 8 games out now. If I wasn't so sure that the new acquisitions would bring a world title in 2004, I would be worried.
   202. baudib Posted: August 01, 2004 at 05:29 AM (#769521)
Re: 1986 Mets --
Four of the eight starters (five, if you count Foster) were veterans acquired from other teams. That's quite a bit more than "augmenting" the young core. Hernandez was a giveaway and Santana was a free-agent signing.

Bobby Ojeda was acquired for a boatload of young players. Somehow though, Bobby O was a reasonably young lefty (27, went 9-11 with a 4.00 ERA in 1985) but Kris Benson is what, a 28-year-old has-been?
   203. The Wilpons Must Go (Tom D) Posted: August 01, 2004 at 10:37 AM (#769674)
I don't count Foster and Santana as major cogs in the machine. Whatever, The 1986 Mets seem like a very very very long time ago.

I'm not going to compare him to Randy Johnson, but he's at least comparable to Al Leiter at the same age.

I would be careful about making projections for another pitcher based on Leiter's progress. Its like when people were saying that Ordonez would be a good hitter because Ozzie Smith became one. Also, when Al Leiter was a "project", nobody was mortgaging their future to get him.

What we are counting on is for Rick Peterson to turn around careers. But couldn't he turn around the careers of pitchers who don't cost the cream of the farm system? What impressed me in Oaklnad was the productivity he got out of guys like Hiljus and Lidle.

Benson and Zambrano could be very good (I certainly hope they are). The investment made does not leave much room for error.
   204. Chris in Wicker Park Posted: August 01, 2004 at 02:02 PM (#769718)
The pain is just as fresh as two days ago. Ugh.
   205. Sam M. Posted: August 01, 2004 at 02:37 PM (#769730)
baudib, you continue to press this comparison to the 1986 Mets and how they were built, when you've already acknowledged that this Mets team is not in the same place that one was. When the Mets traded for Bobby Ojeda, they were looking to complete the pitching staff for a championship run, based on having been in the pennant race the prior two years. The Mets didn't make any trades of young talent for veterans until after they'd been in the race in 1984 (Carter) and 1985 (Ojeda). This Mets team is coming off two straight last place finishes, and was under .500 when it made these deals. They're just not comparable.

Besides which, the Ojeda WAS a much better pitcher than Benson. You cite his W-L record and ERA from one season, without mentioning that he'd had a better-than-league average ERA in each of the prior three years before that trade. Benson hasn't been able to say that since 2000.

I view Benson and Zambrano almost as reclamation projects. Not quite -- they're better than that -- but in the sense that all you hear from the Mets is how Peterson believes he can help them go from average pitchers with excellent stuff to outstanding results. Even if that's true, IMO you don't pay the price the Mets paid for average pitchers hoping they'll be better. You get high quality. Bob Klapisch reports that several GMs told him that if they'd known Kazmir was available, they'd have made offers:

One National League GM said he was "shocked" the Mets were abandoning the hard-throwing lefty - and that Kamzir had been dealt for relatively little. . . . Rival officials weren't even aware that Kazmir was suddenly available, insisting they would've called Duquette had they known.

Is THAT any way to run a franchise? Disgraceful.

It includes a quote from Fred Wilpon explaining why they would not include Kazmir in any deal earlier this year:

"I'm not trading away the future of this franchise," is what owner Fred Wilpon said at the time.

Guess that lasted all of four months.

Playoff Pitch
   206. Ska Posted: August 01, 2004 at 04:14 PM (#769771)
Where do you go from here?
Not to first place. Not to second place. Both the Phils and Marlins are stillc clearly better teams. Not to the postseason then.
What about credibility? Can anyone trust anything the Mets tell them? Anything? I was very pessimistic about Osama Bin Wilpon, but I never knew that he was this dangerous.
Is anyone even thinking about next year?
   207. fennario Posted: August 01, 2004 at 04:16 PM (#769774)
Everything I've read indicates not so much that this is a run for it this year, but a remaking of the whole franchise's pitching system in Rick Peterson's image. Thus, the top decision makers weren't looking to get someone better for Kazmir; they actually coveted Zambrano, whom Peterson thinks he can fix in 10 minutes. Kazmir for whatever reason wasn't perceived to have fit in Peterson's vision of ideal mechanics -- Peterson (and/or others) apparently thinks Kazmir's across-the-body delivery is fundamentally unsound. All the traded pitchers were drafted or obtained pre-Peterson, so it would appear that based on Peterson's advice and direction, they cleaned out the pieces that didn't quite fit into his system at what was seen as the top of their trade value for pieces with attributes that Peterson values most highly.

This, of course, doesn't account for why Huber was needed to pry Bautista from the Royals for the Pirates, but some in the organization must have soured on him as well.
   208. baudib Posted: August 01, 2004 at 04:43 PM (#769802)
Sam M:
In my opinion, which admittedly doesn't count for much, you DO trade Scott Kazmirs for average pitchers.

Simply put, expecting 20-year-old hotshot AA pitchers to become good major league pitchers is insane. It does not happen.

The chances of an average 28-year-old MLB pitcher becoming a stud pitcher is MUCH more likely.

You keep referring to Kazmir as a valuable property, and maybe he is. But what exactly is the template for success that would apply to Kazmir?

Where is the high-school draftee, let's say since 1990, who has Kazmir's resume -- first-round pick, good numbers in the minors, six good starts at AA at age 20, high on prospect lists -- who becomes a stud pitcher within his first six years in the majors?

There are a couple, but I submit that the list of middling 28-year-old veterans who come out of nowhere to become star pitchers is greater:

David Wells
Jeff Fassero
Jamie Moyer
Al Leiter
Bob Tewksbury

David Wells post-age 30 has had a better career than any high school pitcher signed in the past 15 years.
   209. Russ Posted: August 01, 2004 at 04:45 PM (#769804)
This, of course, doesn't account for why Huber was needed to pry Bautista from the Royals for the Pirates, but some in the organization must have soured on him as well.

The Pirates wanted a long-term answer at 3b, and they don't think Wigginton is one. The common theme in every proposed deal that the Pirates would take included a longterm solution at either 1b or a 3b. I don't think the Pirates would have done the deal just for Wigginton and Benson and the Mets really, really wanted Benson.
   210. fennario Posted: August 01, 2004 at 04:51 PM (#769808)
The Pirates wanted a long-term answer at 3b, and they don't think Wigginton is one. The common theme in every proposed deal that the Pirates would take included a longterm solution at either 1b or a 3b. I don't think the Pirates would have done the deal just for Wigginton and Benson and the Mets really, really wanted Benson.

That may explain why the Pirates wanted Bautista, but not why the Mets had to give the Royals Huber to get him.
   211. Russ Posted: August 01, 2004 at 05:05 PM (#769831)
David Wells post-age 30 has had a better career than any high school pitcher signed in the past 15 years.


Andy Pettitte? Freddy Garcia? Bartolo Colon?

Although, I agree (partly) with the spirit of your message, in that very, very often pitchers don't get really good until they hit 30 and many of those pitchers are guys who were supposed to be good when they were younger and just weren't.
   212. Sam M. Posted: August 01, 2004 at 05:16 PM (#769856)
You've biased the question impossibly, baudib. On the Kazmir side, you narrowed the field so much that OF COURSE you're not going to get many "hits" --

first-round pick, good numbers in the minors, six good starts at AA at age 20, high on prospect lists

Well, duh. You might as well have said, "How many people with the EXACT resume of Kazmir have made it big? Well, surprise: few or none!

On the other side, you've made it so broad ("middling 28-year-old veterans who come out of nowhere") that you've swept in pitchers who have as much in common with Victor Zambrano as I do with Pamela Anderson.

I could ask this: How many 28/29 year old pitchers who have anything close to Zambrano's walk/inning (202/316) and walk/strikeout (202/241) ratios over a two year period have amounted to anything?

Just to pick one of your list at random, David Wells in his 28/29 seasons had the following ratios: 85 walks in 318 innings, and 85 walks to 168 Ks. In other words, Zambrano has walked 2.5 times as many hitters in almost the same number of innings, and has a 1:1 W/K ratio compared to Wells's 1:2. In short, they are not comparable.
   213. baudib Posted: August 01, 2004 at 05:34 PM (#769896)
Sam, feel free to broaden the classification as much as you'd like. Let's say high-school draftees, in AA at age 20. There must be plenty of those, no?

There aren't many pitchers comparable to Victor Zambrano, who, btw, is not yet 29.

Al Leiter age 27-28 166 Ks, 121 Ws, 216.2 innings 4.61 ERA

Darryl Kile age 25-26 218 Ks, 155 Ws, 274.2 innings 4.75 ERA
   214. Joshemy Posted: August 01, 2004 at 05:41 PM (#769915)
There aren't many pitchers comparable to Victor Zambrano, who, btw, is not yet 29.

He turns 29 August 6th... close enough.
   215. Backlasher Posted: August 01, 2004 at 09:29 PM (#770952)
Sam,

I don't know what Peterson is looking at to correct, but I think that Joe Niekro and Jaret Wright also fit your model. Granted neither are/were as extreme as Zambrano.
   216. Sam M. Posted: August 01, 2004 at 09:48 PM (#770970)
Jaret Wright, yes. And no one had to give up Scott Kazmir to get Jaret Wright! Guys who have the flaws and performance problems Zambrano has had should be -- and are -- obtainable as reclamation projects, or in deals for middle prospects. A smart organization doesn't toss away a # 1 draft pick who has been nothing but impressive in the minors for that.

If the Mets were convinced Kazmir had injury risks, fine. (Well, not fine, but you know what I mean.) Make known your willingness to consider trading him, and let the offers roll in. To just take Zambrano for a chip like that. Ugh.
   217. Old Matt Posted: August 01, 2004 at 09:50 PM (#770974)
Art Howe is back to his toolsy ways.
   218. Jim Kaat on a hot Gene Roof Posted: August 01, 2004 at 09:52 PM (#770977)
Late in the day as it is, I too would like to offer my condolences to Sam M, who seems like a nice guy despite being a Mets-lover.

Sam, if you're really thinking about leaving the Dark Side, I personally extend you an invitation to become a Cardinals Fan, where all is sweetness and goodness and light.
   219. Neil Posted: August 01, 2004 at 09:53 PM (#770979)
Sam, if you're really thinking about leaving the Dark Side, I personally extend you an invitation to become a Cardinals Fan, where all is sweetness and goodness and light.

Don't do it Sam. No self-respecting Missourian or Midwesterner would ever become a Cardinals fan.

1985 BABY!!!!!!! LONG LIVE DON DENKINGER!!!!
   220. Backlasher Posted: August 01, 2004 at 10:00 PM (#770980)
Let me again repeat, I don't think I would have traded Kazmir.

Nevertheless if Wright is your model, please consider this: Wright came cheap because he had been relegated to bullpen duty by people that could not fix him.

The Braves inquired about Wright a few years earlier, when he was looking Zambranoish. The price was a hard throwing left handed pitcher with 64 Major league saves who at age 20 had struck out 207 players in 206 minor league innings. The Braves preferred Steve Reed and Steve Karsay for that chip, and that chip was more developed than Kashmir.

Again, I would not have made the deal, but I do think the value equation is at least a little skewed.
   221. Backlasher Posted: August 01, 2004 at 10:16 PM (#770985)
I guess I'm looking at it this way, Sam. I didn't want the Braves to trade Wainwright, Francoeur or McBride last year. Years before that I would have said no way to Betamit. I understand where you are coming from.

However, how many times is the cost really as you perceive.

Doyle Alexander was the epitome of a mediocre pitcher, farther advanced in age than either of the Mets haul, without nearly the upside. He cost a triple a pitcher that was standing on the precipice of greatness.

Denny Neagle, a pitcher that was just starting to look really good, but had a past history worse than Benson, cost a young, good major league experienced pitcher.

Terry Mulholland on the downside of his career cost you a pitcher that started the AAA all star game, and the next-big-thing in Quevedo.

Andy Ashby has cost successful picks and prospects Adam Eaton and Carlon Loewer, and then the saber-fave, minor league stud Bruce Chen.

I can't even remember what we got for Bong.
   222. Backlasher Posted: August 01, 2004 at 10:25 PM (#770992)
Here is one other one:

Mike Bielecki - the crazy antics of Turk Wendell. I waited forever to see what I thought was a Bird clone in a Braves uniform.
   223. Sam M. Posted: August 01, 2004 at 11:04 PM (#771015)
Thanks for the suggestion, RETARDO. But any chance of my becoming a Cardinal fan was left behind 19 years ago, during one of the greatest divisional races ever (well, except for the outcome). Anti-Cardinal feelings might as well have been wired into my genetic code in 1985. ;-)

The price was a hard throwing left handed pitcher with 64 Major league saves who at age 20 had struck out 207 players in 206 minor league innings.

Oh, yeah -- pull out the John Rocker card, knowing I can't possibly argue for HIS value! Very, very well-played. But the point remains: the Mets, having apparently decided to sell Kazmir's value, failed utterly to try to market him and find out what he might have brought. I think it was a heck of a lot more than Zambrano; you wouldn't have made the deal but you're not convinced I'm right about Kazmir's value. But wouldn't you want your organization to have at least gauged the market for a talent like that?
   224. Backlasher Posted: August 01, 2004 at 11:19 PM (#771027)
the Mets, having apparently decided to sell Kazmir's value, failed utterly to try to market him and find out what he might have brought. I think it was a heck of a lot more than Zambrano; you wouldn't have made the deal but you're not convinced I'm right about Kazmir's value. But wouldn't you want your organization to have at least gauged the market for a talent like that?

I apologize if I am miscommunicating my message. I see this as three seperate questions.

(1) What is the price of Victor Zambrano?
(2) Is Victor Zambrano worth the price?
(3) Are their better investments for my Victor Zambrano currency.

On question 2, we are in complete agreement. I don't think I would have made the deal. However, I don't think I would have made Marquis/Wainwright/King for Drew/Marrero. It looks like I might be wrong about that. I think I overvalue prospects more than the market, but maybe less than some here.

On question 1, this is my earlier discussion. Let's pretend you didn't make the Benson deal. I think you may could have gotten Zambrano for Peterson and one of the position players. Absent Peterson, the only tangible chip you had was Kazmir. Now maybe regardless of that situation, you would still not give up Peterson. That's ok, but its a seperate question. I agree with baudib that this is the cost of a Zambrano.

IMHO, we (or I) haven't explored the third question, but yes, you should have seen what Kazmir would have bought you. I guess we have evidence that the Mets did not do this and that was a mistake regardless of the circumstance. No matter if Peterson pulls the trigger on Zambrano after turning down R.Johnson, that is just impulse purchasing.

Its only question 2 where we disagree. I think the market rate for an average MLB pitcher with experience is one of your 2 best pitching prospects, if one of those two look like they have strong MLB potential.

Oh, yeah -- pull out the John Rocker card

I thought you'd like that. It took me a couple of posts to set that up :)
   225. I Love LA (OFF) Posted: August 01, 2004 at 11:24 PM (#771034)
"I stood up and clapped when I heard the news that we got him," Peterson said. "I talked to people I trust around baseball, and they all couldn't believe we got him."

- Rick Peterson.

I officially hate Rick Peterson.
   226. Backlasher Posted: August 01, 2004 at 11:31 PM (#771041)
I officially hate Rick Peterson.

Well if I adopt a second favorite team, I'll be happy to trade you for him. Seriously, why don't you give him a chance with Zambrano before roasting him alive. At least these deals weren't initiated by John Franco.

btw-Its also a huge testiment to this site that I feel enough unity with people to actually be writing positive things about the Mets. As my dearly departed grandfather would say (back in the days of the cold war) I'd pull for Communist Russia before I'd root for the Mets.
   227. Andere Richtingen Posted: August 01, 2004 at 11:38 PM (#771054)
Sam, if you're really thinking about leaving the Dark Side, I personally extend you an invitation to become a Cardinals Fan, where all is sweetness and goodness and light.

..in a Ned Flanders sort of way.
   228. AJMcCringleberry Posted: August 02, 2004 at 12:21 AM (#771086)
I officially hate Rick Peterson.

He's been added to my list.

Wilpon
Duquette
The "super scout" (who's name I forget) who also liked the deal
And now Peterson
   229. Joshemy Posted: August 02, 2004 at 01:03 AM (#771116)
The "super scout" (who's name I forget) who also liked the deal

Al Goldis.

I'm giving Peterson a shot on this for now... he just has to prove if he is this ultra-guru he supposedly is...
   230. I Love LA (OFF) Posted: August 02, 2004 at 01:34 AM (#771135)
Don't worry guys, I heard Peterson was impressed with Zambrano because he was 3-0 [with a 5.13 ERA] against the Red Sox last year.
   231. JC in DC Posted: August 02, 2004 at 02:13 AM (#771165)
Man, I totally agree w/Sam. I was out of town, at a conference, and heard about this from a guy next to me on the flight home. I couldn't believe they dealt Kazmir.

And I just don't see why, if you think so much of your pitching coach, that you pay so DEARLY to give him a project, when projects abound during the offseason.

IOW, Sam is right: the deals presupposed something false. The Mets have NO CHANCE this year, and should have continued to build for 2005 and beyond. They blew it, and I totally understand Sam's despair.
   232. billyshears Posted: August 02, 2004 at 02:25 AM (#771168)
I think the hardest thing for me is the overwhelming feeling of powerlessness. I want to abandon this team. I want to root for the utter failure of Benson and Zambrano. I want to root for Kazmir, Huber and Peterson. I want to be a Red Sox or Dodger fan. But I can't. I'm a Mets fan. I'll look for the bright side. I'll come around and root for Benson and Zambrano. I'll place my faith in Rick Peterson. I'll watch a game again, I'll go to a game again. But right now, I don't want to. I want to make the Mets, Fred Wilpon, Jim Duquette, Al Goldis and Rick Peterson pay for taking away at this instant something that used to give me great joy. But I can't.

Last Thursday, at around 2am, I posted this:

This is almost an annual ritual, isn't it? Waiting in the days before the trade deadline, hoping that rumours of the Mets doing something colossally stupid are untrue. I could live with Wigginton + Peterson for Benson, especially if the Mets sign Benson to an extension. Not because I think this would be a good deal, but because I consider myself pleased whenever the Mets are only minorly deusional and idiotic, as opposed to completely delusional and idiotic. First off, I'm not yet sold on Peterson, TINSTAPP, and with Kazmir and Humber as advanced as Peterson, with greater upside, there wouldn't be room for all three of them in the rotation. If Millege is involved however, I will jump off of a bridge. I just can't imagine the Mets would be that stupid, but I believe I've said that before. Now, if the Zambrano/Kazmir rumour comes to fruition, I will have to find a means of suicide far more painful than merely jumping off of a bridge

I guess the other shoe finally dropped. Alas, I didn't jump off of a bridge, but it was touch and go there for awhile. I had a wedding in Chicago this weekend and flew in Friday afternoon for the rehearsal dinner. I got to my room a few minutes before I had to leave for the dinner and checked ESPN news and found out about the trades. I immediately shut off the TV, and started pacing around the room, unsure of exactly what to do with myself. I resolved to become a Red Sox fan. I sat in stunned silence for the next ten minutes. I dragged myself to the dinner where I proceeded to be as disagreeable as possible to all people who were neither the bride, the groom or their immediate family.

When I came back to the room, I lay in my bed for an hour, unable to sleep. I thought to myself, "I have a great job, a great girlfriend, I like my life. How can I possibly feel so empty right now?" I decided that in order to get some comfort, I had to commune with other disaffected Mets fans, so looked for, and when found, hooked up the TV internet thing that a lot of hotels have. I couldn't get on Primer. Then the device froze. I called the front desk at 3am, to get them to fix it. They couldn't. I asked to speak to a hotel IT person. At that point, my girlfriend awoke and asked me what the hell was wrong with me.

I got back home to NY tonight at 8:30, and have spent the last two hours reading these boards and others trying to take comfort in the fact that other Mets fans feel the same pain as I. It has helped, but only a little. It still hurts.
   233. The Original SJ Posted: August 02, 2004 at 02:25 AM (#771170)
Mets fans, you do not yet realize your importance. You have only begun to discover your power. Join us, and we will complete your training. With our combined strength, we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy.

--Yankee fans
   234. Old Matt Posted: August 02, 2004 at 03:48 AM (#771204)
You all know about Kaz's game today, right?
   235. AJMcCringleberry Posted: August 02, 2004 at 04:40 AM (#771239)
You all know about Kaz's game today, right?

Looking for the boxscore....you know I really didn't need to see that.
   236. Old Matt Posted: August 02, 2004 at 05:10 AM (#771255)
5IP, 3H, 0ER, 3BB, 1HBP, 8K against Carolina.

Kazmir showed five innings of thunder. The former Mets prospect struck out two in each of the first four innings. In the third, he loaded the bases with one out then struck out two in a row to end the inning. In the fourth, he placed runners at second and third with one out and escaped again. He threw 81 pitches, topping out at 95 miles per hour, in his first win as a Devil Rays Minor Leaguer.

From here.
   237. J. Cross Posted: August 02, 2004 at 07:18 AM (#771336)
baudib,

The chances of an average 28-year-old MLB pitcher becoming a stud pitcher is MUCH more likely.

The sad thing is that Victor Zambrano isn't even an average MLB pitcher. His 5.40 DiPS ERA is the 5th worst in the AL. I think he's about as likely to be an average pitcher over the next 3 years as he is to fall out of the majors altogether. At $3M/yr he's a liability. We would have been better off just releasing Kazmir (or, better still, trading him for a good player).

note: I say "we" but I'm definitely reconsidering my Met fandom. I find myself pleased that they got sweeped this weekend and are now 9 games out. I'm hoping that the Mets lose every one of Zambrano's and Benson's starts for the rest of the season. Is there room for one more in Red Sox Nation? I can't root for new shitty players every year. Teams I'm considering: Red Sox, Twins, A's, Dodgers.
   238. J. Cross Posted: August 02, 2004 at 07:20 AM (#771339)
btw, what are the chances that in 20 years people look back on the stuff Rick Peterson taught and laugh about how he just got lucky with three guys in Oakland?

I'm not saying he did but I think it's a distinct possibility.
   239. rLr Is King Of The Romans And Above Grammar Posted: August 02, 2004 at 07:26 AM (#771340)
Teams I'm considering: Red Sox, Twins, A's, Dodgers.

I say go with the Twins. They're an interesting team, with lots of promising young players (if they'll play them), in a nice medium-sized city. I heartily endorse the Twins, my second favorite team.
   240. J. Cross Posted: August 02, 2004 at 07:36 AM (#771343)
Tom Gordon's #1 fan (aka RL in NY) suggested the Twins too. He knows I could never root for the Yankees. I'm a big Supernatural Santana fan so that helps. I'll have to look into the number of each team's games I'll get with my extra innings package and think about whether I need a pure sabemetric team (Depodesta's Dodgers) or can appreciate Terry Ryan's way of doing things.
   241. AJMcCringleberry Posted: August 02, 2004 at 07:42 AM (#771346)
Teams I'm considering: Red Sox, Twins, A's, Dodgers.

For a brief while on Friday I switched to the Twins, I was also considering the D-Rays. I realized I'll always be a Mets fan, although I only watched about 2 innings of this weekend's series and don't know when I'll actually watch a whole game.
   242. I Love LA (OFF) Posted: August 02, 2004 at 07:55 AM (#771350)
I've been trying to look for a new team this weekend [thank god for MLB.tv]. Here are the teams I was/am considering:

1. Yankees: Since the Mets want me to root for a bunch of mercenaries, I might as well root for at least a group of mercenaries thats successful, right? Well, I tried. But I really couldn't do it. I felt like I had sold my soul to the devil. No offense, Yankee fans. I think your team is fun, and your chatters are awesome, but rooting for the Yankees strikes me as evil.

2. A's: I think they are an okay team, but for the life of me I couldn't give a #### about them. Maybe its me, but I think they are dull.

3. Twins: Lots and lots of interesting young players. Mauer, Morneau and Santana wouldn't completely replace Reyes, Wright and Kazmir, but they come close. Still under consideration.

4. Dodgers: Chavez Ravine is the baseball stadium in baseball. Excellent front office. I already go to a bunch of Dodger games. Biggest problem with this is not being able to watch the games [stupid blackouts]. Still under consideration.

5. D-Rays: Kazmir/Upton. Young and upcoming team. Great manager. The problem I have with them is that their situation seems rather hopeless though. Still under consideration.

6. Brewers: Fun team to watch and they have a lot of players that I like. Still under consideration.
   243. J. Cross Posted: August 02, 2004 at 08:04 AM (#771353)
hmmm... I'm going to have to start getting up early in the fall so I'd be rule out west coast teams. No Dodgers, No A's.

OFF, don't root for the Brewers. Rooting for a Selig team is just as bad as the Yankees. Although, that hurts the Twins case too. I'm looking for a well run, AL team (so I'm not really rooting against the Mets) on the east coast (for practical reasons). I keep coming back to the Red Sox.
   244. I Love LA (OFF) Posted: August 02, 2004 at 08:14 AM (#771355)
Ah, who are we kidding? We all know this looking for another team thing is temporary, and that we'll be back next year, at least I think I will. I mean, despite all the heartache I had on Saturday, I still kept an eye on the Mets' game. I'll root for another team this year, but I think I'll always be a Met fan, regardless of how stupid or idiotic their management is, or how hopeless and humilliating the situation will be.
   245. J. Cross Posted: August 02, 2004 at 08:34 AM (#771360)
Sadly, that's probably true. Why am I stuck with the team that was good when I was 7 years old? Hopefully, Reyes and Wright will be fun to watch at least.
   246. Jack of Arcades Posted: August 02, 2004 at 08:54 AM (#771362)
Switching teams never works. I tried it before, and you just can never truly switch.
   247. The Original SJ Posted: August 02, 2004 at 10:35 AM (#771387)
No offense, Yankee fans. I think your team is fun, and your chatters are awesome, but rooting for the Yankees strikes me as evil.

None taken, I was raised to be a Yankee fan, I waited through the lean years (they weren't in the playoffs 'til I was in college), I can now enjoy the benefits guilt free.

As for other options, I like the dodgers, I watch a lot of there games on extra innings, they are my second favortie team (and the Nl team I root for), for a couple reasons.

Classic uniforms

I don't think I could root for a team with 10 different uniforms, call me crazy, many have, but I hate the look that so many teams throw out there nowadays.

West Coast Team

So they are amost never thrown up there against the Yankees.

Eric Gagne

So fun to watch pitch.

Vin Scully

By far the biggest reason.
   248. Benji Posted: August 02, 2004 at 12:39 PM (#771403)
I agree with those that say stay with the Mets. We just have to outlast Wilpon. I made it through M. Donald Grant/Bob Scheffing and Al Harizin/Jeff Torborg and we will prevail through this greed and incompetence too. The thing that will be the first nail in the Wilpon coffin will be the pathetic crowds they will draw in their last home stands. Once the money stops flowing at the gate things will happen. And Guerrero getting the AL MVP won't hurt either.
   249. Mike Emeigh Posted: August 02, 2004 at 01:44 PM (#771440)
Don't read too much into Kazmir's first outing. Carolina has a horrible offense right now, especially with Jason Stokes nursing a wrist injury.

-- MWE
   250. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: August 02, 2004 at 04:28 PM (#771691)
Devil Rays on Scott Kazmir for the August 2nd BA Daily Dish:

"He graded out with an above-average fastball, our scouts had that part on him, and an above-average curveball and we saw those things yesterday," Bosman said. "He has a quick arm, he's a good athlete with a nice clean delivery, nice arm stroke. And these things generally are the fabric of what you can work on--with three quality pitches--that can take him to the big leagues."

So is his delivery bad, or is it good?
   251. baudib Posted: August 02, 2004 at 05:48 PM (#771851)
The sad thing is that Victor Zambrano isn't even an average MLB pitcher. His 5.40 DiPS ERA is the 5th worst in the AL.

I will continue to point out the comparison to Al Leiter then. If Zambrano isn't an average MLB starter, then Al Leiter is just ordinary. His DIPS ERA is 4.78, which is 39th in the NL. There aren't any successful starting pitchers who have a K-W ratio of 63-55 (Leiter's).
   252. J. Cross Posted: August 02, 2004 at 06:37 PM (#771943)
So, we traded for Zambrano because he has a chance to be as lucky as Al Leiter?
   253. billyshears Posted: August 02, 2004 at 06:51 PM (#771958)
Switching teams never works. I tried it before, and you just can never truly switch.

Therein lies the problem. As of Friday, I can no longer truly root for the Mets either. I see every win as validation of their bass-ackwards way of doing things. If Benson and Zambrano become wildly successful under Peterson's tutelege, I will admit that I was wrong, return to the Mets with my tail between my legs and resolve in the future to have complete faith in the organization. What I can't stand is persistent mediocrity which allows Wilpon & Co. to justify their actions, admit only minor misdeeds and continue with the same ill-fated mismanagement philosophy.

I have narrowed the choice for my new team down to the Red Sox and the Dodgers. It has to be a Sabermetric organization. I can no longer root for a team the logic of whose transactions are either (i) a complete mystery to me, or (ii) dictated by unrealistic short term expectation and a desire for sweet back page headlines and some love from Mike and the Angry Puppy. The Red Sox give me the ability to continue the eternal struggle to topple the Yankees. The Dodgers would allow me to return to the team my grandfather rooted for before they abandoned him. The Mets abandoned me on Friday, so returning to the Dodgers would complete the circle.
   254. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: August 02, 2004 at 08:08 PM (#772103)
Posted by Sam M on September 08, 2003 at 05:45 PM (#324594)
Well, I'm a Mets fan but I'd take Nick Johnson and Soriano over Reyes, Phillips et al. If one of Kazmir, Wright, Huber and Heilman turns out to be a star player we're lucky. Not that they aren't good prospects. Nick Johnson looks like he's turning into a star to me. Reyes MIGHT turn into a star but he has a ways to go. I'll take 2 in the bag instead of 6 in the bush.

J.Cross, I'm going to tack that post up on my bulletin board. And in four or five years, when Kazmir has gone 21-5, Reyes, Huber, Wright and Phillips are the key offensive cogs on the Mets' NL Champs, and Game 1 of the World Series is about to begin, I'm going to re-post it right here on this site, reminding everyone of your lack of faith in the future, and you are going to beg forgiveness of Mets' fans everywhere for this calumny. Deal? :)
   255. Sam M. Posted: August 02, 2004 at 08:33 PM (#772140)
Ouch. # 256 was painful. It confused me a bit for a minute, until I got the italics and the bold straight in my head. The italicized portion was what J. Cross had posted earlier in the thread; the bolded portion was my answer.

What makes it painful is that I believe even more strongly in the part in bold (except for the Jason Phillips part . . . .). Neither Reyes nor Wright has done anything to disabuse me of my belief they are going to be terrific. And neither have Kazmir or Huber -- and yet they won't be part of the Mets' future. . . . . God knows, I wouldn't take Nick Johnson and Alfonso Soriano over David Wright and Jose Reyes.

But, oh joy! Benson and Zambrano will. I'll struggle to contain my enthusiasm.
   256. JC in DC Posted: August 02, 2004 at 08:47 PM (#772163)
There are different ways to measure a sports transaction. One of course is to gauge the response of fans of the teams involved. Another way is to gauge the response of fans w/o any interest in the teams. And yet another is to gauge the response of fans who LOATHE the team involved; fans, that is, of a rival team. That the Mets deal has met (pun?) with sympathy and consolation from, among others, Yankees fans, tells you that this was a bad deal, indeed. A very bad deal.

Fans of every team know when they've seen something go disastrously wrong for another team; they know this can happen to their team as well. No one wants to tempt the baseball gods and pile on in situations like this.

Godspeed, Mets fans.
   257. I Love LA (OFF) Posted: August 02, 2004 at 09:24 PM (#772226)
You know, the only way the Mets can justify these trades its if they go to the playoffs next year. For them to have a chance, these are the things that need to happen:

1. Piazza and Floyd have to bounce back.
2. Glavine, Looper, Trax and Leiter have to keep pitching like they have this year.
3. Zambrano and Benson need to have career years.
4. Kaz needs to improve on this year.
5. Hidalgo [if he is the RFer] needs to repeat the numbers he's posted as a Met.
6. Reyes and Wright need to start contributing.
7. They have to fix the bullpen and bench.
8. They must sign a top 1b [Delgado] and hope he performs like one.

Can all those things happen? Sure. Will they all happen? No ####### way.
   258. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: August 02, 2004 at 09:26 PM (#772231)
No #### way.

Ya Gotta Believe!!!
   259. Sam M. Posted: August 02, 2004 at 09:36 PM (#772256)
Well, I don't think ALL of those things need to happen. Give me 2, 3, 5 and 6, and I'll take my chances with the rest.

But bottom line? Even if it takes only those four, the odds they'll all happen are extremely slim.

(I think # 4 is a given, if only because Matsui and Reyes will switch positions and because Matsui will not be adjusting to a new country, a new league, and a new team again.)
   260. I Love LA (OFF) Posted: August 02, 2004 at 10:08 PM (#772302)
I don't know, Sam. While I think 2 + 3 are very important, I think 1 and to a certain extent 9 need to happen for the Mets to go to the playoffs. I don't care if they have Seaver, and Gooden at front of the rotation, no team can go to the playoffs if their #3 and 4 hitters can't break the 850 OPS mark. I mean, as much as I'd like to blame Art Howe or Mike Stanton for the Mets' collapse this year, it wasn't really their fault. This team went downhill because Piazza and Floyd hit .161 and .244 in July.
   261. Mr. Imperial Posted: August 02, 2004 at 10:29 PM (#772324)
Like some of you, I have also considered giving up my team in the wake of this debacle. (For the record, I planned on adopting the Dodgers, for the sole reason that they had the foresight to leave Brooklyn 45 years ago. Anyone that leaves Brooklyn in their wake is all right with me.)

However, I have since reconsidered. The Mets are my team, have been so for 20 years now, and I'm not giving them up because of Wilpon and his clueless son. I will, however, take the following steps:

1) Follow the careers of Kazmir, Peterson, Huber and Diaz and root for boatloads of success for all four of them.

2) Passively root against Benson and Zambrano every start they make. I'm not going to actually boo or anything, but I'm not going to root for them to succeed in NY. I hope Benson decides to leave the Mets after this season and that the two draft picks we acquire blossom into stars for this team. I also hope Zambrano's failures lead us to trade him to some other suckers ASAP and that the players/prospects we acquire succeed in a similar fashion.

3) Refuse to spend another dollar at Shea Stadium, Keyspan Park (home of the Brooklyn Cyclones) or on Mets merchandise until the Wilpons sell the team. I will not put another dollar in their pockets. This does NOT mean I wll boycott Shea entirely - I will only go to games if I somehow come across comp tickets or someone else already bought them.

That's just me though. I wouldn't blame anyone who is at the end of their rope and decided to jump ship.
   262. Cowboy Popup Posted: August 02, 2004 at 10:41 PM (#772336)
"This team went downhill because Piazza and Floyd hit .161 and .244 in July."

I had no idea Piazza had nose dived like that. That's what I call a "Jeter month".
   263. Sam M. Posted: August 02, 2004 at 11:34 PM (#772411)
While I think 2 + 3 are very important, I think 1 and to a certain extent 9 need to happen for the Mets to go to the playoffs.

Nine? There were only eight items on the list!

Anyway, all I'm saying is that if they get 2 & 3, the offensive improvement we'd get out of 5 (full year of Hidalgo) & 6 (full, productive years out of Wright & Reyes, the last significant guys we'll see out of the farm for at least two years) would be enough. I mean, if somehow two and three happen, we would have a hell of a pitching staff.

But who are we kidding? We're not going to get 2 & 3, and the frigging Braves will win the damn division again.
   264. Rob Base Posted: August 02, 2004 at 11:37 PM (#772420)
If I say "Floyd for Manny Ramirez this offseason" enough times, do you think it will happen?
   265. AJMcCringleberry Posted: August 02, 2004 at 11:44 PM (#772438)
No.
   266. I Love LA (OFF) Posted: August 02, 2004 at 11:53 PM (#772452)
Errrr...I mean eight. If Wilpon insists on winning now, he better take out the wallet and spend some money this offseason. If eight happens, this how the lineup would look like:

1. Reyes ss [s]
2. Matsui 2b [s]
3. Delgado 1b [l]
4. Piazza c [r]
5. Floyd lf [l]
6. Hidalgo rf [r]
7. Cameron cf [r]
8. Wright 3b [r]

Delgado will probably be a little bit expensive, and somewhat of a risk, but with the money the Mets will be saving on the starting rotation, and the GIGANTIC risk they just took on Friday, you those two things shouldn't be a concern for the Mets. Add in the fact that Piazza will never be a 1b, and signing Delgado makes a LOT of sense, which obviously means it won't happen.
   267. Backlasher Posted: August 02, 2004 at 11:57 PM (#772456)
(9) Bobby Cox and Leo Mazzone retire?
   268. Sam M. Posted: August 02, 2004 at 11:58 PM (#772459)
signing Delgado makes a LOT of sense, which obviously means it won't happen.

I don't know. The guy is 32 years old, having an awful year. Is that the guy we want to commit $10 million a year to?
   269. Rob Base Posted: August 03, 2004 at 12:07 AM (#772476)
I'm not in love with any of the available position players this offseason. That's why we must trade Floyd for Ramirez.
   270. Joshemy Posted: August 03, 2004 at 12:07 AM (#772478)
(9) Bobby Cox and Leo Mazzone retire?

Schuerholz (or however you spell it) too...
   271. AJMcCringleberry Posted: August 03, 2004 at 12:10 AM (#772487)
I would prefer Sexson to Delgado. I don't think Sexson would command too high of a price after this season.
   272. I Love LA (OFF) Posted: August 03, 2004 at 12:22 AM (#772507)
I think signing Delgado as long as he is healthy is a calculated risk the Mets must take, yes. Lets face it, this team is built to win in the next two years, and they are not going to win with Piazza, nor Valent at 1b. Am I sure Delgado will bounce back? No, but unless the Mets can get another hitter of the caliber of Delgado, they have to get him because they need to win in the next two years to justify Friday's gamble.
   273. billyshears Posted: August 03, 2004 at 12:30 AM (#772527)
If Wilpon insists on winning now, he better take out the wallet and spend some money this offseason.

Don't you just love Fredo? To ############# stupid and impatient to build a team to win in the future and over the long haul. To cheap and risk averse to build a team to win now. This Mets fans, in a nutshell, is the reason for our current misery.
   274. I Love LA (OFF) Posted: August 03, 2004 at 12:56 AM (#772583)
Man, you guys HAVE to check this guy out: Listen to the Monday Aug 2 one. Absolutely dead on.
   275. Rob Base Posted: August 03, 2004 at 01:05 AM (#772594)
Synopsis, #76?
   276. billyshears Posted: August 03, 2004 at 01:24 AM (#772617)
Benigo is the only one on the FAN who gets it. Whether it's the Knicks, Rangers or Mets, he's the only one who realizes the frauds these teams are running.
   277. Sam M. Posted: August 03, 2004 at 02:26 AM (#772708)
John Sickels certainly gets it.

Devil Rays Prospect Scott Kazmir

That headline kills me. It's just not right.
   278. I Love LA (OFF) Posted: August 03, 2004 at 03:09 AM (#772737)
Stop torturing yourself like that, Sam. Nothing good can come of reading any analysis of this trade. Man, and to think no long ago, I was hoping Tom Glavine wouldn't get a no hitter because I wanted Scott Kazmir to be the first Met to do it. ugh.

BTW, I came across Petit's line today: 6.2ip, 7h, 1 r, 1bb/11so. So I wonder what "ace" we'll get for him. I think I heard Peterson say he can resurrect Nomo's career in "10 minutes."
   279. base ball chick Posted: August 03, 2004 at 03:33 AM (#772749)
HELLO BOYS

i understand your unhappiness. you want a new team to cheer for. your team done tore your heart out and stomped that sucker flat. let me help you fell ever so much better.

cmon over to the stros!!!!!!!!!

listen to reason, to logic....

1)ok uniforms. cool retro unis.
2)sense of despair and hopelessness NEVER EVER winning a pennant or playing in the series. Losing the biggest game ever to the mets, remember?
3) ownership who sez that the 4th largest city in america is a middle market
4)insistence on playing too many veterans
5) besides, there are already too many redsox fans and it's so trendy to be a twins fan. and the dodgers are on too late.

and billyshears, i'm sure we could find you some saber something somewhere

so cmon boys, whaddaya say

ASTROS RULE! ASTROS RULE!

try it. you'll like it.

lisa
baseball chick (serious stros fan)
   280. Phil Coorey is a T-Shirt Salesman Posted: August 03, 2004 at 03:41 AM (#772752)
besides, there are already too many redsox fans

There is only one in Toowoomnba!
   281. AJMcCringleberry Posted: August 03, 2004 at 03:43 AM (#772753)
Thanks for the Benigo link. It's good to hear someone bash them like they deserve.
   282. J. Cross Posted: August 03, 2004 at 03:51 AM (#772759)
Re: #256

Sam M., you ARE looking good in that bet. Here's how I see the player changes since then:

1) Nick Johnson keeps getting hurt (adv. you)
2) Soriano is older than was then known (adv. you)
3) Reyes doesn't run like he used to (adv. me)
4) Wright keeps getting better (adv. you)
5) Phillips sucks (adv. me)
6) Huber's value is probably unchanged.
7) Kazmir has avoided serious injury (adv. you)
8) Heilmann looks like a bust (adv. me)

all in all, it's enough to get to me agree that the FORMER Mets 6 is now a better bet than the former Yankee 6. I don't remember whether we were taking contracts into account. If not I might rank the 8 players something like:

1) Soriano (Y)
T2) Reyes (M), Wright (M), Johnson (Y)
5) Kamir
6) Huber
7) Phillips
8) Heilmann

I guess I'd say that Reyes, Wright and Kazmir (combined) should be as valuable as Soriano and Johnson (combined) and that Huber would have put the Mets over the top.

Now, how would you compare A-Rod and Vazquez against Reyes, Wright, Zambrano, Benson and Heilmann? :(

Nice work, Mets.
   283. Harold can be a fun sponge Posted: August 03, 2004 at 07:09 AM (#772921)
You guys are frickin' pathetic.

I'll admit that the trades were horrible. It must be painful to lose guys like Kazmir and Huber. But to consider changing your allegiances? To pick and choose teams to root for? You'd think the Mets dealt Wright and Reyes for Neifi!

When I was 16 years old, my team (the Werner Padres) gave away two borderline HOFers in their primes. Kazmir and Huber are not Sheffield and McGriff. I lived. I've seen better days. Things turned out OK.

You guys will be over this by April.
   284. baudib Posted: August 03, 2004 at 07:47 AM (#772936)
So, we traded for Zambrano because he has a chance to be as lucky as Al Leiter?

No you traded for Zambrano because he has a chance to be as good as Al Leiter and Scott Kazmir will have to be damned lucky to be as good as Zambrano.
   285. The Original SJ Posted: August 03, 2004 at 07:56 AM (#772938)
(9) Bobby Cox and Leo Mazzone retire?

Schuerholz (or however you spell it) too...


Schuerholz is nothing without the other too. To Quote the greatest line ever uttered by the Oracle, "The Braves put their (2004) bullpen together on a dare."
   286. I Love LA (OFF) Posted: August 03, 2004 at 07:58 AM (#772940)
Oh yeah, Kazmir will be lucky to walk the ballpark and have ERAs in the fours. Riiiight. If he doesn't get injured, there is no question in my mind that Kazmir will be a MUCH better pitcher than Zambrano has been so far.

BTW, this is the most depressing thing I've read about this trade:

The dealing of Kazmir has the fingerprints of Mets veterans. Kazmir was cocky, and that rubbed some veteran Mets the wrong way in spring training. No wonder Al Leiter won't accept a trade. He wouldn't want to give up his assistant GM powers

Awful.
   287. baudib Posted: August 03, 2004 at 08:03 AM (#772942)
Don't act as if the "if he doesn't get injured" part is anywhere near a given, or even 50-50.
   288. I Love LA (OFF) Posted: August 03, 2004 at 08:35 AM (#772951)
Is there any valid reason why you think Kazmir will get injured, you know, other than the "he is young so he will get injured" one?

In other news, at least, they recognize they need some help at 1b. Delgado or bust.
   289. AJMcCringleberry Posted: August 03, 2004 at 09:33 AM (#772960)
The Mets could have had a shot at Doug Mientkiewicz,

I'd hate to think what we would have given up for him.
   290. AJMcCringleberry Posted: August 03, 2004 at 09:34 AM (#772961)
Don't act as if the "if he doesn't get injured" part is anywhere near a given, or even 50-50.

Does he have any more of a chance to get injured than Victor "Elbow Trouble" Zambrano?
   291. Dr. Vaux Posted: August 03, 2004 at 09:41 AM (#772963)
I'm glad to hear Benigno dislikes the moves; I've always liked him, but I've been out of touch with WFAN lately.
   292. Benji Posted: August 03, 2004 at 11:42 AM (#772989)
Trading deadline comes and here's what "the plan" turns out to be. Keep f'ing Botallico, Stanton, Franco, Cockroach Backstabber Leiter, etc (and stick us with Ice Williams again), ship out Wheeler, Seo and Yates, trade for 8 weeks of Benson and the rest of Zambrano's career, such as it will be. I don't offhand know his Baseball Reference comps, but his "Benji goes back to the early 60's" comps are Randy Tate, Pete Falcone, Pete Smith, Anthony Young, all guys with STUFF who flat out sucked. Please, please, PLEASE let Wilpon have a Peter Pocklington business flameout so he can sell. The Mets need new ownership. Desperately.
   293. Benji Posted: August 03, 2004 at 11:53 AM (#772992)
And Johnny Olerud, the best 1B option for the Mets, signs with the Yankees. But that's right, Duquette said he had no interest in any east coast teams. So he stayed close to the Pacific with the Yankees. I started a while back calling him Howdy Duquette, because he's been Wilpon's ventiloquist doll ever since he took the job.
   294. Sam M. Posted: August 03, 2004 at 01:05 PM (#773020)
Trading deadline comes and here's what "the plan" turns out to be. Keep f'ing Botallico, Stanton, Franco, Cockroach Backstabber Leiter, etc (and stick us with Ice Williams again),

I agree with every other word of that post, Benji, but it is really kind of unfair to put Ricky Bottalico in with that Rogues' Gallery. He's been OK and I would have no problem with keeping him around.

It is still astonishing to me that people just assume Kazmir will get hurt, when the Mets traded him for a guy who already is having arm problems. I mean, I know Zambrano's issues are supposed to be minor. But how often does supposedly minor "tendonitis" end up with Tommy John surgery just a few short months later?

Olerud would have made sense as a 1b option when they were 1-3 games out. Now, it would be incredibly dumb. IMO, Piazza should be playing first base every day from here on out. Let's see if he shows the slightest progress there with some experience (I doubt he will, but what do we have to lose at this point, besides fourth place?).
   295. Benji Posted: August 03, 2004 at 05:21 PM (#773421)
Sam, even if they were 50 out I'd rather see Olerud out there than Phillips. In theory you're dead right that Piazza should be out there every day, but he is so terrible out there that I fear for his safety and that of the pitchers/infielders. It looks like the sad conclusion of Mike is that he's a DH now, and the Mets don't use one. And back to Johnny O, if they are going to kid themselves with the 38+ pitchers, the damn Iceman and the other stooges at least bring a class act in.
   296. I Love LA (OFF) Posted: August 03, 2004 at 06:34 PM (#773537)
Nah, I'd rather have Valent [who leads the Mets in OPS] than those two guys out there. I think making Piazza a 1b does more to hurt than to help the Mets because at this point in his career, I don't think Piazza hits enough to be a defensive liability at first.
   297. Benji Posted: August 03, 2004 at 08:33 PM (#773816)
OFF, I really like Valent too. But our genius manager doesn't.
   298. Backlasher Posted: August 03, 2004 at 10:12 PM (#774026)
I don't offhand know his Baseball Reference comps

Well here is 3 of the top ten, including numbers 2 and 3.

Steve Karsay (968)
Octavio Dotel (968)
Jason Isringhausen (964)

Upthread, we already talked about the price of Karsay, namely a pitcher with similar minor league numbers at age 20 and a handful of major league saves (with the added bonus of being a Yankee-killer). Dotel was supposedly a good trade for giving up a parcel of A's projects.

Of the guys you listed, few if any (maybe Young) had as many peak seasons as Zambrano has already posted.

(btw- With Zambrano converging on Young, Dotel and Isringhausen, it looks like its karmic for him to be a Met.)
   299. Baseball Crank Posted: August 04, 2004 at 12:13 AM (#774454)
As Rick Pitino would say, the Benson deal stinks and it sucks and it stinks.

But at least it's better than the Zambrano deal.
   300. Sam M. Posted: August 04, 2004 at 05:00 AM (#775436)
Latest Baseball America Prospect Hot Sheet has Kazmir at # 4, with this comment from Kevin Goldstein:

Tossed five shutout innings in his Devil Rays system debut, striking out eight. Memo to Mets: you just traded one of the best prospects in baseball for a just over .500 pitcher with a strikeout-to-walk ratio of barely more than 1:1. Memo to Mets fans: Don't think about this trade for too long or blood will start to come out of your ear.

You got that right, Kevin . . . .
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