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Monday, April 15, 2013

The Read Zone: The Greinke – Quentin Brawl, Was It More Than Just a Baseball Fight?

Even though the injury here was not as severe as in Moore’s case, I believe that it’s a question of intent and propriety within the sport.  In this case, Quentin’s actions have cost the Dodgers and Greinke dearly.

thetailor Posted: April 15, 2013 at 10:20 AM | 109 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: brawls, carlos quentin, los angeles dodgers, zack greinke

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   1. thetailor Posted: April 15, 2013 at 01:28 PM (#4414582)
Interesting post-script to the article, which I have not been able to add yet. Civil damages have been awarded in the past for a baseball fight. Who knew?

Chicago Cubs pitcher Jim Brewer brushes back Cincinnati’s Billy Martin, who throws his bat at the pitcher. Brewer picks up the bat and attempts to hand it to Martin, who punches Brewer and breaks an orbital bone near the pitcher’s right eye. Brewer needs two operations and does not pitch again until the following season. Martin is suspended for five days and fined $500 by NL President Warren Giles. On Jan. 28, 1969, a circuit court jury in Illinois orders Martin to pay Brewer $10,000 in damages for medical expenses. Martin goes on to be a manager known to brawl with players.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/basebrawl-notable-injuries-baseball-fights-article-1.1315512#ixzz2QXnLJal5
   2. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 15, 2013 at 01:34 PM (#4414597)
I have nothing to add on this topic, but I wanted to say that this story reminded me of what a piece of worthless human garbage Marty McSorley is. He makes Quentin look spectacular by comparison.
   3. valuearbitrageur Posted: April 15, 2013 at 01:45 PM (#4414616)
I think you must be kidding about Sir McSorley, according to the unbiased, unassailable Wikipedia ...

McSorley's bruising style made him a fan favorite; but he strove to improve his game beyond being primarily known as an enforcer, earning great respect around the league for his hard work ethic, his fine team play, and his articulate intelligence off the ice
   4. Drexl Spivey Posted: April 15, 2013 at 01:46 PM (#4414620)
After seeing MLB’s flaccid punishment of Quentin, what is to stop any other team from sending their worst player out there with the intent to injure their opponent’s ace pitcher?


I don't see this ever happening. I don't think that there will ever be "goons" in MLB.
   5. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: April 15, 2013 at 01:51 PM (#4414633)
After seeing MLB’s flaccid punishment of Quentin, what is to stop any other team from sending their worst player out there with the intent to injure their opponent’s ace pitcher?


Because most people aren't sociopaths. Jonny Gomes isn't going to say "sure, I'll go snap Verlander's neck just for the hell of it!" Quentin clearly thought Greinke had some kind of a thing with him.
   6. thetailor Posted: April 15, 2013 at 01:53 PM (#4414639)
Yeah I sort of want to take that sentence out because it's not the point at all of the article.
   7. Long Time Listener, First Time Caller Posted: April 15, 2013 at 01:54 PM (#4414647)
After seeing MLB’s flaccid punishment of Quentin, what is to stop any other team from sending their worst player out there with the intent to injure their opponent’s ace pitcher?

Because that's not what happened here, either.

At least not in the "Let's make our team more competitive vis a vis the other team from a strategic point of view"
   8. SoSH U at work Posted: April 15, 2013 at 01:57 PM (#4414655)
After seeing MLB’s flaccid punishment of Quentin, what is to stop any other team from sending their worst player out there with the intent to injure their opponent’s ace pitcher?


Obviously, there's nothing stopping that from happening now, though that can just as likely happen the other way (the pitching team's worst player targets the batting team's best player). And if it was perceived that a manager sent out a player from the bench to hurt a player on the field during a brawl, I doubt MLB would feel bound to the precedent governing players hit by pitches charging the mound. I think that penalty would be pretty stiff.

   9. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: April 15, 2013 at 02:03 PM (#4414666)
After seeing MLB’s flaccid punishment of Quentin, what is to stop any other team from sending their worst player out there with the intent to injure their opponent’s ace pitcher?


Seeing as how this isn't the first time a batter has charged the mound and injured the pitcher followed by a weak suspension, I doubt this will suddenly lead to a spate of scrubs maiming pitchers.
   10. Ron J2 Posted: April 15, 2013 at 02:08 PM (#4414678)
#3 It's absolutely true that he came into the league as a goon and worked very hard to improve his game. To the point that he was taking regular (as opposed to goon) shifts on championship teams.

But even when playing well he had a pretty fair number of dirty plays on his resume. (multiple suspensions) And by the time of the Brashear incident he'd slipped both as a player and as a goon. The basic cause of the incident was that Brashear had beat him rather badly in an earlier fight and turned down a challenge to a rematch (his hands hurt. Bare knuckle fighting is hard on the hands even when you win)

(And to be clear, I'm not attempting to excuse McSorley.)

Like a lot of goons, McSorley was in fact very popular with his teammates.
   11. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: April 15, 2013 at 02:34 PM (#4414731)
I remember watching the Bruins' game the night McSorley hit Brashear. It was a nothing game, neither team was especially good and the Bruins got killed. It was in Vancouver so I went to bed late in the 2nd period (I think it was 4-0 Canucks at that point). I woke up the next morning and as was my habit flipped on SportsCenter figuring the highlights would be of other hockey games or NBA or NCAA and they immediately jumped into the Bruin/Canuck game. It was one of those moments before I even realized what had happened that something had happened and it was a big deal.
   12. thetailor Posted: April 15, 2013 at 02:37 PM (#4414738)
From TFA:

Zack Greinke and Carlos Quentin have met before, in the American League, when Greinke was a Kansas City Royal and Carlos Quentin was a Chicago White Sox. Greinke has hit Quentin before as well, in fact, twice before Thursday night. Your interpretation of the facts will undoubtedly color your opinion as to whether you think this was simply baseball, or an incident like the McSorley incident.
   13. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: April 15, 2013 at 02:48 PM (#4414756)
Zack Greinke and Carlos Quentin have met before, in the American League, when Greinke was a Kansas City Royal and Carlos Quentin was a Chicago White Sox. Greinke has hit Quentin before as well, in fact, twice before Thursday night. Your interpretation of the facts will undoubtedly color your opinion as to whether you think this was simply baseball, or an incident like the McSorley incident.


Carlos Quentin has faced Erik Bedard nine times, and has been plunked by him three times.

Greinke faced Quentin 31 times, and that was the third time he has hit him.

Other pitchers that have hit Carlos Quentin more than once:
Nick Blackburn (leads with 4 HBP)
Jon Lester
Brett Anderson
Bruce Chen
Kyle Davies
Jeremy Guthrie
Jim Johnson
John Lackey
Francisco Liriano
Kevin Millwood
Jeff Niemann
Glen Perkins
David Price
Justin Verlander
Carlos Silva
Jake Westbrook
   14. SoSH U at work Posted: April 15, 2013 at 03:03 PM (#4414781)
Carlos Quentin has faced Erik Bedard nine times, and has been plunked by him three times.

Greinke faced Quentin 31 times, and that was the third time he has hit him.

Other pitchers that have hit Carlos Quentin more than once:
Nick Blackburn (leads with 4 HBP)
Jon Lester
Brett Anderson
Bruce Chen
Kyle Davies
Jeremy Guthrie
Jim Johnson
John Lackey
Francisco Liriano
Kevin Millwood
Jeff Niemann
Glen Perkins
David Price
Justin Verlander
Carlos Silva
Jake Westbrook


Jonah Keri had something on it, noting that Quentin's feelings about Greinke may have been influenced in part by the frequency he hit not just Carlos, but his teammates. Entering the 2013 season, 1/5 of Greinke's career HBPs came against the Sox (for the record, a little less than 1/10th of his innings have been thrown against Chicago).

   15. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: April 15, 2013 at 03:07 PM (#4414787)
Yea, but in fairness, the White Sox are ########.
   16. geonose Posted: April 15, 2013 at 04:52 PM (#4414918)
Carlos Quentin has faced Erik Bedard nine times, and has been plunked by him three times.

Greinke faced Quentin 31 times, and that was the third time he has hit him.

Other pitchers that have hit Carlos Quentin more than once:
Nick Blackburn (leads with 4 HBP)
Jon Lester
Brett Anderson
Bruce Chen
Kyle Davies
Jeremy Guthrie
Jim Johnson
John Lackey
Francisco Liriano
Kevin Millwood
Jeff Niemann
Glen Perkins
David Price
Justin Verlander
Carlos Silva
Jake Westbrook

You missed Erik Bedard, who has also hit Quentin three times...in 9 (!) PAs. Think about it. Bedard has hit Quentin in 1/3 of his plate appearances against him. If Carlos figures there's a pitcher out there who has it in for him, why Greinke and not Bedard?
   17. Walt Davis Posted: April 15, 2013 at 05:16 PM (#4414949)
Well, Bedard's gonna think real hard before hitting Quentin a 4th time now, isn't he? :-)
   18. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: April 15, 2013 at 05:25 PM (#4414960)
This headline made me think there was a love triangle or something. Disappointing.
   19. Random Transaction Generator Posted: April 15, 2013 at 06:48 PM (#4415031)
You missed Erik Bedard, who has also hit Quentin three times...in 9 (!) PAs.


It was the first line in the part you quoted.
   20. Jim Wisinski Posted: April 15, 2013 at 08:30 PM (#4415163)
How is an eight game suspension for a position player "flaccid"? Other than punishments for drugs or corked bats and the like that strikes me as unusually long.
   21. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 15, 2013 at 08:32 PM (#4415168)
Well, Bedard's gonna think real hard before hitting Quentin a 4th time now, isn't he? :-)


He should plunk him just for the hell of it.
   22. Yastrzemski in left. Posted: April 15, 2013 at 10:14 PM (#4415289)
Gweinke should have kept his mouth shut and let him take his base like he has every other time he has ever been hit without incident. But the replay from catcher clearly shows Gweinke saying something which is the moment Quentin charged. And again, if one of his own teammates didn't land square on him, he would not have broken his collar bone.

"But a number of players and former players I spoke with over the weekend — hitters and pitchers both — said that the brawl could have been avoided if Greinke had used more conciliatory body language and refrained from a verbal response to Quentin’s initial anger.

What’s more, the history between the two is not confined simply to the two previous times that Greinke had hit Quentin with pitches. Greinke, during his tenure with the Royals from 2004 to ’10, had frequent disputes with the White Sox, for whom Quentin played from '08 to '11 — disputes that stemmed from the number of times Greinke threw at White Sox hitters and hit them.

White Sox first baseman Paul Konerko told the Chicago Tribune that Greinke, in addition to hitting Quentin twice, probably threw more than five pitches over his head, and that “at some point it’s going to be the last straw.”
   23. Yastrzemski in left. Posted: April 15, 2013 at 10:30 PM (#4415309)
"As if the numbers aren’t telling enough, Greinke seemed to boast about hitting A.J. Pierzynski, then with the White Sox, in an interview with a Kansas City radio station in 2008. Greinke mentioned that he had hit Pierzynski with a slider a few years before, and that blood had to be drained from the catcher’s toe, “so that was one of my better hit batters.”
   24. Cooper Nielson Posted: April 15, 2013 at 11:45 PM (#4415352)
"As if the numbers aren’t telling enough, Greinke seemed to boast about hitting A.J. Pierzynski, then with the White Sox, in an interview with a Kansas City radio station in 2008. Greinke mentioned that he had hit Pierzynski with a slider a few years before, and that blood had to be drained from the catcher’s toe, “so that was one of my better hit batters.”

Yet another reason to side with Greinke.
   25. Drexl Spivey Posted: April 15, 2013 at 11:48 PM (#4415358)
How is an eight game suspension for a position player "flaccid"? Other than punishments for drugs or corked bats and the like that strikes me as unusually long.


Eight games is the max for this due to the CBA. Since Gonzalez dropped his appeal there is no reason to dispute the length of the suspension.

I do agree that without the injury the suspension would have been much shorter. But suspending the guy for five percent of the season seems reasonable when taking into account the aftermath.
   26. odds are meatwad is drunk Posted: April 15, 2013 at 11:50 PM (#4415359)
eh lots of players have hit AJ and boasted about it. not all of them are pitchers
   27. zonk Posted: April 16, 2013 at 12:00 AM (#4415363)
Quentin gets plunked a lot and he's one of baseball's worst offenders when it comes to hanging over the plate, in the strikezone, and getting cheap HBPs.

If he wants to play Ron Hunt or Craig Biggio, that's fine -- but I don't think Hunt or Biggio had a reputation for being mound chargers.

I understand the anger over what happened to Greinke, but Quentin ought to be suspended because he's sporting an approach at the plate that benefits him offensively, but also leads to a lot of HBPs. Someone who clearly is using the HBP to his advantage offensively ought to be more in tune to what and when of the HBP, and clearly in this game situation - it was more of the standard Quentin riding an HBP than Greinke plunking him.

He ought to have a nice long suspension for stupidity and not playing by 'the rules' within the offensive strata he operates.
   28. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: April 16, 2013 at 12:04 AM (#4415364)
"As if the numbers aren’t telling enough, Greinke seemed to boast about hitting A.J. Pierzynski, then with the White Sox, in an interview with a Kansas City radio station in 2008. Greinke mentioned that he had hit Pierzynski with a slider a few years before, and that blood had to be drained from the catcher’s toe, “so that was one of my better hit batters.”


AJ hate aside, this sounds a little off.
   29. Tripon Posted: April 16, 2013 at 12:07 AM (#4415368)
For everyone who thinks Grienke threw at Quentin on purpose. MLB would have suspended him as well if they thought he was culpable. That they didn't probably means that they didn't think whatever actions Grienke committed to the situation (swearing at Quentin, and we're not even sure what was being said), that it did not warrant a suspension or fine on Grienke.

So enough blaming the victim here.
   30. SoSH U at work Posted: April 16, 2013 at 12:17 AM (#4415374)

For everyone who thinks Grienke threw at Quentin on purpose.


Who thinks Greinke threw at Quentin here on purpose? I'm not sure even Quentin thinks that.
   31. Yastrzemski in left. Posted: April 16, 2013 at 12:35 AM (#4415377)
(swearing at Quentin, and we're not even sure what was being said),

Laughter. He said "I'm sorry" right? Unreal.

   32. Tripon Posted: April 16, 2013 at 12:36 AM (#4415379)

Who thinks Greinke threw at Quentin here on purpose? I'm not sure even Quentin thinks that.


Yastrzemski in left in this thread for one. Quentin himself thinks it is, or else he wouldn't claim there's a history there and to check it. Then there's the quote that Quentin felt he had to defend himself when he was talking about the suspension.
   33. SoSH U at work Posted: April 16, 2013 at 12:47 AM (#4415382)
Yastrzemski in left in this thread for one. Quentin himself thinks it is, or else he wouldn't claim there's a history there and to check it.


Yaz hasn't said that (he may be the one person who believes that, but he hasn't come close to saying it).

Quentin believes there's a history there, (likely a combination of the two previous HBPs, the ball over his head, the fact Zack hit White Sox players much more frequetnly than any other opponent and this quote about A.J.). So he definitely had some ill will toward Greinke, a fact Zack admitted he was aware of.

But I don't know if he thought that Greinke was throwing at him Thursday, or if he had long ago decided the next time Zack hit him he was going to do something about it (possibly he decided he would simply bullrush him the next time, or maybe he would spout off and go from there).

None of it excuses Quentin's actions in any way. But I'm not feeling a whole lot of sympathy toward the victim. He knew Quentin had hard feelings toward him. He could have acted conciliatory after hitting him Thursday (because he did, in fact, hit him. The HBP wasn't just something Carlos imagined) if he was really interested in avoiding a mound confrontation with a guy who had a hard-on for him. He opted not to.
   34. Tripon Posted: April 16, 2013 at 12:59 AM (#4415385)

Yaz hasn't said that (he may be the one person who believes that, but he hasn't come close to saying it).


That's sort of laughable, its pretty clear by the two quotes that Yaz has posted where he is on Quentin vs. Greinke. Being able to infer a person's opinion is equally valid as just as a person expressly stating his opinion.

Then SoSH, why charge the mound? You do not charge the mound unless you think the pitcher is intentionally throwing at you. Then you don't try to justify your actions by saying it 'could' have been avoided, or you had to defend himself.

None of it excuses Quentin's actions in any way. But I'm not feeling a whole lot of sympathy toward the victim. He knew Quentin had hard feelings toward him. He could have acted conciliatory after hitting him Thursday (because he did, in fact, hit him) if he was really interested in avoiding a mound confrontation. He opted not to.


Well, no. He didn't have to do any of this, why? Because he didn't do anything wrong. And by that, he's under no obligation to say any of what you're suggesting, because really, who really thought that Quentin would charge the mound, and more importantly, try to ram Grienke into the ground? If Quentin really was driven to action Grienke, then no matter what Grienke did or said would have made a difference then. Quentin would have charged the mound as soon as he got hit by the ball, and that is what happened.
   35. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 16, 2013 at 01:19 AM (#4415391)
You do not charge the mound unless you think the pitcher is intentionally throwing at you.

Or you mouthed off to your teammates about what you'd do to Greinke if he ever dared to hit you again, and now must either charge the mound or risk loss of face. Either way, it's all on Quentin.
   36. SoSH U at work Posted: April 16, 2013 at 01:51 AM (#4415396)
That's sort of laughable, its pretty clear by the two quotes that Yaz has posted where he is on Quentin vs. Greinke. Being able to infer a person's opinion is equally valid as just as a person expressly stating his opinion.


For starters, no it's not. There is actually a big difference between you stating what you believe and me guessing what you believe. For evidence, see just about every ####-flinging Primer thread.

But I'll concede it's pretty damn clear what side of this set-to he's on. That doesn't mean he believes Greinke intentionally was trying to hit Quentin in this instance. He may very well believe it, but he hasn't said it.

I don't believe Greinke was trying to hit Quentin, and I'm not on the side of either one of these dumbasses.

Then SoSH, why charge the mound? You do not charge the mound unless you think the pitcher is intentionally throwing at you. Then you don't try to justify your actions by saying it 'could' have been avoided, or you had to defend himself.


I just said why. He may have thought Greinke was trying to hit him here. OTOH, he may not have cared about Zack's intent, having previously decided that the next time he got hit by this SOB, he was going to do something about it. In fact, I think the latter is more likely.

As for the avoiding it, he could have been talking about what Greinke said. That if Greinke hadn't mouthed off, he wouldn't have charged. I tend to think that's unlikely, but it can't be ruled out.

Well, no. He didn't have to do any of this, why? Because he didn't do anything wrong. And by that, he's under no obligation to say any of what you're suggesting, because really, who really thought that Quentin would charge the mound, and more importantly, try to ram Grienke into the ground? If Quentin really was driven to action Grienke, then no matter what Grienke did or said would have made a difference then. Quentin would have charged the mound as soon as he got hit by the ball, and that is what happened.


He hit him. As much as you might want to ignore that inconvenient fact, Greinke threw a ball inside the batter's box and hit Carlos Quentin.

Additionally, Greinke knew that Carlos Quentin thought Zack had a habit of throwing at him. Zack admitted as much after the game.

So you have a guy who thinks you're trying to hit him with pitches. You subsequently hit him with a pitch. The thing to do, if you don't want the jackass charging at you (since that does happen), is to make one of those "my bad," or "Sorry, Carlos" gestures, indicating that the pitch that you just unfortunately hit this young man with was not actually thrown with the intent to hit said young man. That's what you do if you want to avoid a fight. Since, as most of us agree, it happens to be the truth.

Now, you are not under any obligation to do so. But if the jackass charges the mound after you decide to act defiantly, rather than apologetically, following your own mistake, then SoSH is under no obligation to feel sorry for you because some teammate landed on you wrong in the ensuing scrum. You want to show what big balls you've got, don't come crying to me when they get stepped on.

I guess he'll just have to chalk this up as "one of his worst hit batters."

   37. boteman Posted: April 16, 2013 at 02:04 AM (#4415397)
Mama always said, "Sticks and stones (and big baseball players) might break my bones, but names will never hurt me." So Quentin should have been the bigger man regardless of what Greinke might have uttered and just taken his base.

There's at least an order of magnitude greater harm from physical battery than from unkind words. These players are at the top of their profession, they should friggin act like it.

Oh, and Greinke's still a punk.
   38. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: April 16, 2013 at 02:14 AM (#4415400)
Mama always said, "Sticks and stones (and big baseball players) might break my bones, but names will never hurt me." So Quentin should have been the bigger man regardless of what Greinke might have uttered and just taken his base.


?

This is completely backwards. The person hit with a stone thrown (three times, by the same guy) at 90 miles an hour was the injured party up to that point. You're climbing the guy hit with stones and with words should have just shrugged.

None of it excuses Quentin's actions in any way. But I'm not feeling a whole lot of sympathy toward the victim. He knew Quentin had hard feelings toward him. He could have acted conciliatory after hitting him Thursday (because he did, in fact, hit him. The HBP wasn't just something Carlos imagined) if he was really interested in avoiding a mound confrontation with a guy who had a hard-on for him. He opted not to.

This seems perfectly reasonable.
   39. chisoxcollector Posted: April 16, 2013 at 07:21 AM (#4415417)
So, according to Carlos Quentin, Paul Konerko, and Greinke's own HBP history, Greinke has a history of throwing at White Sox batters. And according to his Greinke's own comments about the Pierzynski HBP, Greinke thinks that is pretty cool when he hurts a White Sox batter.

Greinke, at the very least, knows Quentin thinks Greinke repeatedly throws at him. He hits Quentin with a pitch thrown in the batters box. Quentin takes a couple of steps towards the mound. He does NOT immediately rush as others have stated. In fact, he starts to angle towards first base. He only runs towards Greinke AFTER Greinke says whatever he says. If Greinke offers up a "my bad" instead of whatever dumbass remark he made, Quentin never charges.

Yeah, Greinke is a "victim".

To be clear, Quentin deserves his suspension. You charge the mound, you get suspended. That's how it works. But he didn't do anything worse than any other mound charger, and in fact probably had more actual reason behind it than most.

   40. Lassus Posted: April 16, 2013 at 08:04 AM (#4415426)
Greinke, at the very least, knows Quentin thinks Greinke repeatedly throws at him.

It's been repeatedly pointed out that no one, ever, gets hit as much as Quentin. He probably thinks the checkout person at the local grocery store is going to repearedly throw canned vegetables at him, and stares suspiciously at the birds above.


But I'm not feeling a whole lot of sympathy toward the victim... He could have acted conciliatory after hitting him Thursday(because he did, in fact, hit him. The HBP wasn't just something Carlos imagined)

I'm often with SoSH, but not here. Quentin hangs over the plate and refuses to make any effort to get out of the way, ever. Math shows he doesn't seems to care - well, except when he really really wants to - about the pitcher involved.
   41. chisoxcollector Posted: April 16, 2013 at 08:11 AM (#4415430)
If he thinks everybody is trying to hit him, why isn't he charging them? Could it be because other pitchers don't have a history of throwing at him and his (White Sox) teammates, and taking joy from their HBP related injuries? Could that have anything to do with it?
   42. Lassus Posted: April 16, 2013 at 08:43 AM (#4415448)
If he thinks everybody is trying to hit him, why isn't he charging them?

I dunno, because he's a meathead who keeps getting hit wherever he goes?

Greinke is probably a complete dick, I have no idea.

But Quentin has the highest rate of getting HBP ever. I'm trying to find where Grienke sits but 46 HBP in the last 10 years (and 21 of those in his first two years) doesn't make a great case for him being any kind of headhunter of any particular team, it seems.

I can't find it, but are his HBP broken down to see how my White Sox he's hit of those?
   43. Tom Nawrocki Posted: April 16, 2013 at 09:12 AM (#4415471)
Quentin hangs over the plate and refuses to make any effort to get out of the way, ever.


He didn't even try to get out of the way of this one. It's probably sheer muscle memory for him at this point, but Quentin did that thing where he turns his back on the pitcher but didn't actually step back in the box or try to dodge Greinke's pitch.
   44. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: April 16, 2013 at 09:48 AM (#4415494)

I can't find it, but are his HBP broken down to see how my White Sox he's hit of those?


From post #14 by SOSH


Jonah Keri had something on it, noting that Quentin's feelings about Greinke may have been influenced in part by the frequency he hit not just Carlos, but his teammates. Entering the 2013 season, 1/5 of Greinke's career HBPs came against the Sox (for the record, a little less than 1/10th of his innings have been thrown against Chicago).
   45. Tripon Posted: April 16, 2013 at 10:08 AM (#4415507)

He hit him. As much as you might want to ignore that inconvenient fact, Greinke threw a ball inside the batter's box and hit Carlos Quentin.


Then again, its the simple act of being hit by a pitch by Greinke that set Quentin off. You can say he(Greinke) should or could have apologized for it, but Quentin wasn't simply going to stop just because of what Greinke said. He wanted to prove his point, which was that Greinke was intentionally throwing at him, and he thought he did, by charging the mound and then saying later on he had to defend himself. If he(Quentin) truly did not think Greinke was throwing at him, even after the fact, then what exactly is he defending himself against then? The general rate of HBP that he gets? Its been shown that Quentin style of play helps contribute to that more than any one pitcher has.
   46. DA Baracus Posted: April 16, 2013 at 10:08 AM (#4415508)
Entering the 2013 season, 1/5 of Greinke's career HBPs came against the Sox (for the record, a little less than 1/10th of his innings have been thrown against Chicago).


Which is a total of 9. 5 of which came in 2005, the year that led to him almost quitting baseball. Nothing to see here.
   47. Tripon Posted: April 16, 2013 at 10:14 AM (#4415511)

This is completely backwards. The person hit with a stone thrown (three times, by the same guy) at 90 miles an hour was the injured party up to that point. You're climbing the guy hit with stones and with words should have just shrugged.


Yes, because a) Quentin plays baseball that has him being hit at a much higher rate than other players, and b) nobody would be trying to hit a player and awarding a base in that specific situation, with a man on and a 2-1 lead.

Its baseball, there is a chance a ball is going to hit you instead of your bat. You do not have the option of trying to rush your opposition and take him out. You want to do that, play another sport like Football, Basketball, Hockey or even Soccer.
   48. SoSH U at work Posted: April 16, 2013 at 10:22 AM (#4415520)
Then again, its the simple act of being hit by a pitch by Greinke that set Quentin off. You can say he(Greinke) should or could have apologized for it, but Quentin wasn't simply going to stop just because of what Greinke said.


That's speculation Tripon. It is not a statement of fact. Carlos may very well have been hell-bent on charging, and there's nothing Zack could have done to stop him. But we don't know that, and I'm willing to bet, in general, that the chances of Angry Hit Batter A refraining from charging HBP Delivering Pitcher B are improved if the pitcher expresses remorse at his mistake, rather than defiance over it.

Which is a total of 9. 5 of which came in 2005, the year that led to him almost quitting baseball. Nothing to see here.


Well, it seems the White Sox might have seen something, which is the way these things go. And if the A.J. remark on the radio is accurate (that's from Robothal, by the way), that would certainly cement any feelings they had about Mr. Greinke.

   49. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: April 16, 2013 at 10:25 AM (#4415527)

Which is a total of 9. 5 of which came in 2005, the year that led to him almost quitting baseball. Nothing to see here.


And when Carlos Quentin was a member of the Arizona Diamondbacks.
   50. Lassus Posted: April 16, 2013 at 10:48 AM (#4415548)
Well, it seems the White Sox might have seen something, which is the way these things go.

The recent book about the labrynthian, hypocritical, and positively dada-ist nature of the unwritten rules and the feuds and brawls and such throughout baseball history is pretty fascinating in this regard. The name escapes me at the moment, but we listened to it on a road trip last year.
   51. Shibal Posted: April 16, 2013 at 11:46 AM (#4415598)
You know you've jumped the shark when a guy getting hit by a slider in the foot is proof of a pitcher's headhunting ways. How many times did AJ get hit by Greinke?

Just once. On a slider in the dirt. In 2005. And then Greinke made a joke of it, in 2008.

How many times has a White Sox batter been hit by Greinke after Quentin was plunked in 2009?

0. Zero. Nada.

So yes, if you want to hide your eyes, or play around with the data to imply Greinke has an agenda against the poor little White Sox, go ahead and pretend to do it. But the facts show otherwise.

   52. SoSH U at work Posted: April 16, 2013 at 12:06 PM (#4415613)
You know you've jumped the shark when a guy getting hit by a slider in the foot is proof of a pitcher's headhunting ways.


I think a pitcher crowing about a guy he hit having to have the blood drained from his toe as a result shows the guy is kind of a jerk, and why the White Sox would not have terribly warm feelings about him.

That on-air comment, if accurate, is pretty damn indefensible. Or at least it should be to the folks who were so up in arms about Quentin being hell-bent on "hurting Greinke." So, it's a crime against humanity to want to hurt a guy, but it's A OK to laugh about having done so? I guess you can give one of them, "It's just A.J." comments so you don't have to think too much about it.

So yes, if you want to hide your eyes, or play around with the data to imply Greinke has an agenda against the poor little White Sox, go ahead and pretend to do it. But the facts show otherwise.


Yeah, it's just one side of the argument playing around with the data (Why didn't he charge Erik Bedard, huh, huh?).

I don't know whether Zacky had an agenda against the White Sox. I tend to doubt it (though I wouldn't be surprised if he found himself enjoying twisting the needle). I do think the White Sox had some legitimate reasons to think he's a punk. And the more I learn about him, the more I'm inclined to agree with them.
   53. Lassus Posted: April 16, 2013 at 12:19 PM (#4415627)
So, it's a crime against humanity to want to hurt a guy, but it's A OK to laugh about having done so?

The definition of crimes with regards to intent is pretty specific.


Your point about the possibility of Greinke being a huge ass are taken. I'm still very comfortable saying that the numbers don't hold up that Grienke was any kind of headhunter, or that Quentin was ever interested in getting out of the way of any pitch headed at him..
   54. SoSH U at work Posted: April 16, 2013 at 12:30 PM (#4415638)
The definition of crimes with regards to intent is pretty specific.


I'm really not talking in the legal sense here. There was much angst about Carlos having the intent to injure Greinke (inferred to some extent) and how horrible that was. But Greinke's supporters are kind of mum about Zack laughing about actually having hurt someone.


Your point about the possibility of Greinke being a huge ass are taken. I'm still very comfortable saying that the numbers don't hold up that Grienke was any kind of headhunter, or that Quentin was ever interested in getting out of the way of any pitch headed at him..


I don't think Greinke's a headhunter. I'm pretty damn sure he wasn't trying to hit Quentin with that particular pitch.

I do think that the White Sox, and by extension Quentin, had some legitimate reasons to dislike Greinke, from the number of times he hit them (9 is a healthy number for a guy with his control), to the ball thrown over Quentin's head before the HBP and to his on-air comments. I suspect Quentin decided at some point that the next time Greinke hit him, he was going to do something about it. Greinke could have tried to diffuse the situation Thursday, but opted (it seems) to go the tough guy route.

You're welcome to still feel sorry that one of his teammates injured him during the scrum that followed. I don't see why he warrants it.
   55. thetailor Posted: April 16, 2013 at 12:31 PM (#4415643)
#46 and #51 have nailed it. This post-hoc defense of Quentin based on one random quote by Greinke is absurd.

Anyway, the article is more about Quentin than Greinke -- and if Quentin's attack was premeditated (which even the version of events which has Greinke at fault would support) whether Greinke or the Dodgers could recover in some way for it.

They've lost an ace, a pitcher they're paying half a million dollars per start. Quentin gets an eight-game suspension and that's it?
   56. chisoxcollector Posted: April 16, 2013 at 12:44 PM (#4415668)
You can say he(Greinke) should or could have apologized for it, but Quentin wasn't simply going to stop just because of what Greinke said.


Have you even watched the video of the incident? Quentin takes a couple of steps towards the mound, and begins angling his path towards first base. Then Greinke mouths off, then Quentin runs at him. If Greinke says nothing at all, Quentin does NOT charge the mound.

In Rosenthal's article, he mentions incidents of Ozzie Guillen and A.J. Pierzynski yelling at Greinke about his throwing at Sox hitters. So this isn't just "in Quentin's head" as people keep saying. We have heard from Paul Konerko saying Greinke has repeatedly thrown at Quentin (not just the 3 HBPs) and his teammates, Guillen and Pierzynski yelling at Greinke about his throwing at Sox batters, Greinke bragging about hurting AJ, and Greinke hitting Sox players more than any other team.

But of course, Greinke says he never threw at them on purpose, so it must be true.

   57. Mike Webber Posted: April 16, 2013 at 12:45 PM (#4415669)
I'm a jerk, but if I could throw like Grienke, I'd try to stick one in Quentin's ear the next time I see him.

Or maybe his junk.
   58. DA Baracus Posted: April 16, 2013 at 12:50 PM (#4415678)
Have you even watched the video of the incident? Quentin takes a couple of steps towards the mound, and begins angling his path towards first base. Then Greinke mouths off, then Quentin runs at him.


Quentin never changes his angle. He walks towards Grienke the entire time.
   59. Lassus Posted: April 16, 2013 at 12:53 PM (#4415681)
In Rosenthal's article, he mentions incidents of Ozzie Guillen and A.J. Pierzynski yelling at Greinke about his throwing at Sox hitters. So this isn't just "in Quentin's head" as people keep saying.

This is probably concern trolling, but going with Guillen and A.J. as examples of reasonable corroborative reaction really can't be considered a great strategy.
   60. Shibal Posted: April 16, 2013 at 01:11 PM (#4415711)
For a guy with such great command, it is amazing how Greinke has hit only 3 White Sox batters since the end of the 2005 season. If he was throwing at Chicago hitters all the time, like AJ, and Paulie, and Ozzie all say he did, wouldn't he hit a few more?

I mean, he plunked 5 White Sox hitters in 2005, the season he was racking up a stellar 5.80 ERA in 33 starts. He had no control over his pitches that year, yet was able to accomplish what he wanted in wacking Chicago hitters. But as his control improved greatly, his ability to hit White Sox hitters diminished greatly as well.

Weird, don't you think? One might be tempted to say Greinke wasn't trying to hit White Sox batters...that the pitches just got away. But that's silly talk. Just ask Paulie and A.J.

   61. chisoxcollector Posted: April 16, 2013 at 01:20 PM (#4415718)
Quentin never changes his angle.


I just watched it about 50 times, and the angle change isn't quite as apparent as I thought. However, it does seem pretty obvious to me that Quentin wasn't charging the mound until Greinke mouthed off. Even the catcher behind him clearly didn't think it was a big deal, until Quentin took off after Greinke's comment. I stand by my assertion that Quentin would not have charged if Greinke had kept quiet. Even the players interviewed (anonymously) by Robothal interpreted Greinke's reaction as "game on".

This is probably concern trolling, but going with Guillen and A.J. as examples of reasonable corroborative reaction really can't be considered a great strategy.


Unless you think AJ and Ozzie are figments of Carlos Quentin's imagination, they still prove it wasn't all in Quentin's head. And what about Paul Konerko's statement? Do we have reason to dismiss his claims as well?
   62. chisoxcollector Posted: April 16, 2013 at 01:25 PM (#4415729)
Weird, don't you think? One might be tempted to say Greinke wasn't trying to hit White Sox batters...that the pitches just got away. But that's silly talk. Just ask Paulie and A.J.


And where are Greinke's former teammates stating that the accusations are false? Also, not every "purpose" pitch results in a HBP, so quoting those numbers over and over don't necessarily disprove the point. Konerko specifically mentions multiple pitches being thrown over Quentin's head. But it must all be in Konerko's head... and AJ's head... and Ozzie's head... and Quentin's head...
   63. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: April 16, 2013 at 01:30 PM (#4415735)
First, it's extremely unlikely that Greinke was trying to hit Quentin given the situation and the location. It wasn't that far inside and Quentin made no effort to get out of the way.

Second, Quentin never changed his angle. He immediately started walking towards Greinke and then charged.

Third, even assuming Greinke told him to f*** off or something, why was it his obligation to defuse the situation? Yes, he hit Quentin, but, again, there's very little chance it was intentional. And Quentin is the one who started walking towards the mound and yelling. His decision to walk towards the mound immediately escalated the situation, and it's ridiculous to put any burden on Greinke to defuse it.
   64. Lassus Posted: April 16, 2013 at 01:34 PM (#4415739)
Unless you think AJ and Ozzie are figments of Carlos Quentin's imagination, they still prove it wasn't all in Quentin's head.

The point repeats. AJ and Ozzie are as reliable sources of information as my pre-school nieces. Probably less, actually. As far as Konerko and the multiple pitches over Konerko's head, I'll gladly believe a tracer in pitchtrax rather than a team member and fan's (both referring to Konerko) memory. See your own post about angle of attack.

Also, did you have a thought on the figures in #51?
   65. chisoxcollector Posted: April 16, 2013 at 01:49 PM (#4415757)
The point repeats. AJ and Ozzie are as reliable sources of information as my pre-school nieces. Probably less, actually. As far as Konerko and the multiple pitches over Konerko's head, I'll gladly believe a tracer in pitchtrax rather than a team member and fan's (both referring to Konerko) memory. See your own post about angle of attack.


AJ and Ozzie aren't the "source" for the information. The Chicago Tribune reported that AJ and Ozzie were yelling at Greinke in their game recap.

Konerko was referring to pitches over Quentin's head, not his own. And my post about angle of attack shows I'm willing to be reasonable and incorporate new data into my thinking, which is a lot more than some people in these Quentin threads are doing.

The quote below is a portion of a post on South Side Sox, which is by far the best Sox blog, from May 5, 2009:

We've seen Zack Greinke face the Sox twice this season, and in both games he's used chin music on multiple occasions to open up the outside corner for his slider. He's hit only one batter (Quentin) in 45 innings this season while demonstrating pin-point control. Quentin has been on the receiving end of no less than 5 brush-back pitches from Greinke this season.

None of this is revisionist history, and none of this is in Quentin's head.

   66. SoSH U at work Posted: April 16, 2013 at 01:50 PM (#4415760)
Third, even assuming Greinke told him to f*** off or something, why was it his obligation to defuse the situation? Yes, he hit Quentin, but, again, there's very little chance it was intentional. And Quentin is the one who started walking towards the mound and yelling. His decision to walk towards the mound immediately escalated the situation, and it's ridiculous to put any burden on Greinke to defuse it.


He did hit him. Intentionally or not, that most definitely wasn't a figment of Quentin's imagination. Greinke threw a pitch inside the batter's box that clipped Mr. Quentin.

If we're walking down the street, and I accidentally bump into you and you turn quickly and say, "WTF," I'm going to apologize, because that is what people trying avoid confrontations do. Whether the bump was intentional is immaterial to the fact that it was, in fact, my fault. Furthermore, if I know that you happen to believe (rightly or wrongly) that I routinely try to bump into you intentionally, I'm going to make sure you know it was an accident. That's what I do if I'm trying to avoid a confrontation.

Now, if I welcome a confrontation, then I'm going to tell you to #### off. However, if I do that, I think I've dramatically reduced the sympathy anyone should feel for me if I happen to suffer any injuries in the subsequent confrontation. So, now Zack has no obligation to try to defuse the sitaution. But opting not to means he has to accept some of the consequences of that decision.

The fact that Zack Greinke has a) thrown over Quentin's head in the past, b) hit his teammates more frequently than any other opponent, and c) publicly laughed about hurting one of his teammates with one of those HBPs is not a defense for Carlos Quentin. He couldn't go to the commish in his appeal and say, "But Bud, he's a dick."

However, the fact Greinke did those things makes him a far less sympathetic figure than he was in the immediate aftermath of Tuesday's events. Zack Greinke most definitely contributed, in both the lead-up to and the incident itself, to the conditions that led to the brawl.

   67. chisoxcollector Posted: April 16, 2013 at 01:52 PM (#4415761)
Also, did you have a thought on the figures in #51?


The figures don't tell a whole lot, as they only reference HBP, and not failed HBP attempts.
   68. chisoxcollector Posted: April 16, 2013 at 01:57 PM (#4415775)
The fact that Zack Greinke has a) thrown over Quentin's head in the past, b) hit his teammates more frequently than any other opponent, and c) publicly laughed about hurting one of his teammates with one of those HBPs is not a defense for Carlos Quentin. He couldn't go to the commish in his appeal and say, "But Bud, he's a dick."

However, the fact Greinke did those things makes him a far less sympathetic figure than he was in the immediate aftermath of Tuesday's events. Zack Greinke most definitely contributed, in both the lead-up to and the incident itself, to the conditions that led to the brawl.


You know SOSH, despite your misguided choice in Sox, you're alright. I couldn't have put it better myself. "But Bud, he's a dick" had me choking on my Dr. Pepper 10.
   69. Shibal Posted: April 16, 2013 at 01:59 PM (#4415780)
Failed HBP attempts.

Love it.

Why was he so successful hitting White Sox batters in 2005 but not since?

   70. Lassus Posted: April 16, 2013 at 02:00 PM (#4415783)
AJ and Ozzie aren't the "source" for the information. The Chicago Tribune reported that AJ and Ozzie were yelling at Greinke in their game recap.

Just so we're clear, as I've obviously done a terrible job at making my point:

AJ and Ozzie are not, in the slightest, people who can be trusted by their reactions to outside events as reasonable human beings. Therefore, relying on them yelling at a baseball player as some kind of proof that something they are yelling about is actually occurring in reality is - to me - a rather spurious leg with which to hold up your table. YMMV, as they say.
   71. chisoxcollector Posted: April 16, 2013 at 02:03 PM (#4415788)
Why was he so successful hitting White Sox batters in 2005 but not since?


Oh, I don't doubt it is partially due to better control. It wouldn't surprise me at all if most, or even all of those 2005 HBP were accidental. I also don't think quoting HBP data tells the whole story.

What do you think about the SSS post from 2009 mentioning that Greinke had brushed back Quentin 5 times in TWO games so far that season? During a season where he drew comparisons to Greg Maddux for his pinpoint control?

   72. Shibal Posted: April 16, 2013 at 02:08 PM (#4415793)
I think a pitcher is allowed to brush back hitters who stand on top of the plate. Are you saying that's off limits now? Or gives the batter the right to charge the mound if one of those brush back pitches hits him?
   73. Lassus Posted: April 16, 2013 at 02:11 PM (#4415795)
What do you think about the SSS post from 2009 mentioning that Greinke had brushed back Quentin 5 times in TWO games so far that season?

What do you think about the fact that Quentin has been hit by pitches at a far greater rate than any other baseball player since they've keeping the stat?
   74. Shibal Posted: April 16, 2013 at 02:13 PM (#4415797)
Just an aside, after Quentin was brushed back in the first inning of the 2009 game (the play where all his apologists say Greinke threw over his head), Darren Jackson said this on the White Sox broadcast, with admiration in his voice

"Zach Greinke is not afraid to spin a hitter around as we just saw took place."

So yes, Greinke will spin a batter around. Nothing wrong with that.
   75. chisoxcollector Posted: April 16, 2013 at 02:17 PM (#4415805)
Would CQ be the first, or even the 101st batter to charge the mound after being hit by a brushback pitch? I'd guess most instances of a batter charging the mound are after getting hit by a brushback pitch. So what makes this any different?

Pitcher throws numerous brushback pitches at batter. Batter charges the mound. News at 11.

What is so special about this situation that CQ is being held as some roid raging ape that should be drummed out of baseball? That is what I don't get.
   76. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: April 16, 2013 at 02:17 PM (#4415808)
He did hit him. Intentionally or not, that most definitely wasn't a figment of Quentin's imagination. Greinke threw a pitch inside the batter's box that clipped Mr. Quentin.

Right, and then Quentin immediately started walking towards the mound. To me, that's the moment it escalated. Quentin could have easily put his head down and run to first, as he has many, many times before, or he could have walked to first and yelled at Greinke from the 1b line. But he decided to walk to the mound.
   77. SoSH U at work Posted: April 16, 2013 at 02:18 PM (#4415810)
What do you think about the fact that Quentin has been hit by pitches at a far greater rate than any other baseball player since they've keeping the stat?


As I said on Thursday night, it made me wonder why he would take exception to this particular HBP, when he had never charged the mound in response to a HBP previously. It made me wonder if there was more to this than met the eye.

Turns out, there was.

Quentin could have easily put his head down and run to first, as he has many, many times before, or he could have walked to first and yelled at Greinke from the 1b line. But he decided to walk to the mound.


Yeah, which is why Quentin is guilty of everything he's accused of. He has no defense for his actions, and I've never provided one.

The more debatable question is whether Greinke has any culpability for what followed. I think he does. He could have made some "my bad" gesture in hopes of cooling off Quentin. He decided to go badass instead.
   78. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: April 16, 2013 at 02:22 PM (#4415818)
why he would take exception to this particular HBP, when he had never charged the mound in response to a HBP previously


I don't think this line of thought can be overstated. It is at the very least pretty damned interesting that a guy who makes getting plunked a basic part of his offensive game and doesn't charge the mound suddenly decided to charge the mound.
   79. thetailor Posted: April 16, 2013 at 02:22 PM (#4415819)
I think you guys are missing an important point here.

Regardless of whether Quentin was right or wrong to think that Greinke threw at him on purpose, I think the question is whether he had it in his mind prior to that night that he was simply going to attack the guy the next time he got hit.

When you look at McSorley-Brashear and the Bertuzzi-Moore incident as well, in both cases, the victim knew it was coming and in some senses may have deserved some kind of retribution. For instance, Brashear had beaten McSorley in a fight earlier and would not entertain McSorley's request for a rematch.

The difference-maker is that in those cases, both McSorley and Bertuzzi strayed outside of what was acceptable in the sport and sucker-punched/sucker-slashed/out-right-assaulted their victim.

The question posed in the article is whether Quentin -- regardless of whether he is right or wrong about Greinke hitting him on purpose (I think he's wrong) -- did something that was less baseball and more assault.

From TFA:
Lester Munson, a legal analyst at ESPN, compared the Bertuzzi attack to the bounties placed on NFL players: “Even Warner and Favre, known targets of bounty hits, have acknowledged that they are part of the NFL culture. Bertuzzi’s attack on Moore, however, is one of a kind. It may be the most vicious attack in the history of team sports.”
   80. DA Baracus Posted: April 16, 2013 at 02:25 PM (#4415823)
Would CQ be the first, or even the 101st batter to charge the mound after being hit by a brushback pitch?


No, but the list of times a guy was intentionally hit in his situation (man on first, one run game) isn't very long.
   81. chisoxcollector Posted: April 16, 2013 at 02:25 PM (#4415825)
What do you think about the fact that Quentin has been hit by pitches at a far greater rate than any other baseball player since they've keeping the stat?


SOSH answers that above.

The more debatable question is whether Greinke shares any culpability for what followed. I think he does. He could have made some "my bad" gesture in hopes of cooling off Quentin.


He didn't even have to make a conciliatory gesture. Just make no gesture at all!
   82. Cris E Posted: April 16, 2013 at 02:27 PM (#4415829)
Failed HBP attempts

Actually HBP are failed brushbacks if you consider what pitchers are usually trying to do. Who wants to put a guy on first if you can use ball 2 to get him moving backwards on your slider for strike 3. (There are also days when a guy might be intending something else and a hit batter could be a hit batter...)
   83. DA Baracus Posted: April 16, 2013 at 02:27 PM (#4415832)
Can we please stop comparing this to Bertuzzi and McSorely? They both jumped guys and in Bertuzzi's case he ended Moore's career. Quentin didn't do either of those.
   84. chisoxcollector Posted: April 16, 2013 at 02:33 PM (#4415838)
No, but the list of times a guy was intentionally hit in his situation (man on first, one run game) isn't very long.


Was there a man on first? The game log indicates that Carlos Quentin led off the inning.
   85. Lassus Posted: April 16, 2013 at 02:35 PM (#4415841)
The more debatable question is whether Greinke has any culpability for what followed. I think he does. He could have made some "my bad" gesture in hopes of cooling off Quentin.

When in the name of Nolan Ryan has this EVER happened with someone charging the mound? When has a charging batter ever stopped because the pitcher put his hands up in a conciliatory manner?


He decided to go badass instead.

I've watched that scuffle. He was backing up, and not swinging when he got hit, or to my memory even afterwards. That's going badass?
   86. DA Baracus Posted: April 16, 2013 at 02:36 PM (#4415844)
Was there a man on first? The game log indicates that Carlos Quentin led off the inning.


You're right, my bad. Still, it was a one run game, who intentionally hits a guy in that situation? You might give up the tying run... which is exactly what happened.
   87. DA Baracus Posted: April 16, 2013 at 02:38 PM (#4415849)
When in the name of Nolan Ryan has this EVER happened with someone charging the mound? When has a charging batter ever stopped because the pitcher put his hands up in a conciliatory manner?


Does Guillermo Mota running away count?
   88. chisoxcollector Posted: April 16, 2013 at 02:39 PM (#4415852)
When in the name of Nolan Ryan has this EVER happened with someone charging the mound? When has a charging batter ever stopped because the pitcher put his hands up in a conciliatory manner?


Quentin clearly only starts charging the mound after Greinke's comment. This isn't a case of stopping him, it's a case of not egging him on.

I'm glad to see some big baseball writers are seeing there is more to this than just Quentin being a monster. First we had Robothal, and now Neyer:

It seems like after a day or so, the consensus switched to realizing that maybe what happened the other night wasn't completely Carlos Quentin's fault. Especially when you really dig into the history, as South Side Sox's Jim Margalus has (link)


None of which completely excuses Quentin. But sometimes it's very good to remember that almost everything that happens in baseball happens within some sort of broader context.
   89. chisoxcollector Posted: April 16, 2013 at 02:41 PM (#4415856)
I've watched that scuffle. He was backing up, and not swinging when he got hit, or to my memory even afterwards. That's going badass?


He made a comment that spurred Quentin to charge. And he definitely lowered his shoulder into Quentin (as he should have). He was not initially backing up.
   90. Lassus Posted: April 16, 2013 at 02:45 PM (#4415865)
Quentin clearly only starts charging the mound after Greinke's comment.

Didn't you already walk back on this above that he was going to the mound immediately and didn't change his path from first to the pitcher?


I'm glad to see some big baseball writers are seeing there is more to this than just Quentin being a monster.

A misguided dumbass who can't ever bother to get out of the way of a pitch does not a monster make. My position would be the former.
   91. SoSH U at work Posted: April 16, 2013 at 02:48 PM (#4415870)
When in the name of Nolan Ryan has this EVER happened with someone charging the mound? When has a charging batter ever stopped because the pitcher put his hands up in a conciliatory manner?


As Chisox said, I'm not talking about while Carlos is in full charge. But after Carlos turns, makes his first step to Greinke and yells, Greinke responds with something defiant, not apologetic. He had an opportunity to show the pitch was unintentional. He chose not to.

And he didn't exactly shy away from the contact. Then again, once Quentin started charging, then all bets are off. Greinke can do whatever the hell he wants.
   92. chisoxcollector Posted: April 16, 2013 at 02:50 PM (#4415874)
Didn't you already walk back on this above that he was going to the mound immediately and didn't change his path from first to the pitcher?


Nope. I backed off on my assertion he had started angling towards first. I still believe that is what ultimately would have happened, had Greinke not mouthed off. Quentin took a couple of slow steps, Greinke mouths off, and THEN Quentin charges.
   93. chisoxcollector Posted: April 16, 2013 at 02:51 PM (#4415879)
A misguided dumbass who can't ever bother to get out of the way of a pitch does not a monster make. My position would be the former.


Fair enough. Most of my posts were spurred on by a few posters in the other thread making ridiculous comments about Quentin being a roid raging freak, or saying he should be drummed out of baseball. I don't think you made any of those comments, so you weren't really the reason for my posts.

   94. Lassus Posted: April 16, 2013 at 02:56 PM (#4415885)
Greinke responds with something defiant, not apologetic. He had an opportunity to show the pitch was unintentional.

I just don't really think I've ever seen a pitcher do this, ever. Mind you, when the walk has already started towards the mound you've actually seen a pitcher make a "oh, my bad" gesture? I mean, I could be wrong. Have you? Has anyone?
   95. chisoxcollector Posted: April 16, 2013 at 02:57 PM (#4415888)
I just don't really think I've ever seen a pitcher do this, ever. When the walk has already started towards the mound? I mean, I could be wrong. Have you? Has anyone?


I've seen many pitchers just stand there asking for the ball. In lieu of making some sort of apologetic gesture, he should have made NO gesture. If Greinke does that, I'm just about positive that Quentin goes to first base.
   96. Lassus Posted: April 16, 2013 at 03:02 PM (#4415896)
I've seen many pitchers just stand there asking for the ball.

With a hitter already walking at them. Not standing, not staring, but coming towards the mound. I'm sorry, I honestly don't think you have seen a pitcher simply ignore and say nothing to a batter walking towards the mound after a HBP.
   97. SoSH U at work Posted: April 16, 2013 at 03:11 PM (#4415911)
With a hitter already walking at them. Not standing, not staring, but coming towards the mound. I'm sorry, I honestly don't think you have seen a pitcher simply ignore and say nothing to a batter walking towards the mound after a HBP.


Rosenthal, and his sources, disagree.

But a number of players and former players I spoke with over the weekend — hitters and pitchers both — said that the brawl could have been avoided if Greinke had used more conciliatory body language and refrained from a verbal response to Quentin’s initial anger.

And the other half of this is, if Quentin was simply determined to charge, he could have done so, as so many others have done before him (though probably not with as much aplomb as old Izzy). He didn't have to take a few slow steps out there, so it's possible he was still making up his mind whether he was going full-on attack dog.
   98. chisoxcollector Posted: April 16, 2013 at 03:12 PM (#4415916)
With a hitter already walking at them. Not standing, not staring, but coming towards the mound. I'm sorry, I honestly don't think you have seen a pitcher simply ignore and say nothing to a batter walking towards the mound after a HBP.


I'm positive I've seen it, but can't think of any examples. I'll try to make Google dance and find some.

While it isn't completely analogous, what about Clemens/Piazza? While Piazza comes towards Clemens, Clemens stands there asking for the ball.
   99. Lassus Posted: April 16, 2013 at 03:15 PM (#4415920)
But a number of players and former players I spoke with over the weekend — hitters and pitchers both — said that the brawl could have been avoided if Greinke had used more conciliatory body language and refrained from a verbal response to Quentin’s initial anger.

Sounds like people trying to prove their own point. Again, I could certainly be wrong, but does anyone ever recall a pitcher being conciliatory with a batter already walking at them? On the way out to the mound? I mean, you don't even have to remember who, but do you recall an image in your head of that ever occurring? I don't. Maybe I'm not paying enough attention.
   100. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: April 16, 2013 at 03:23 PM (#4415938)
But look at it from Greinke's perspective. He just hit a guy leading off the inning in a tight game against a division rival. He hit Quentin with a pitch that was only a few inches inside and Quentin had made no effort to get out of the way. And this is a guy who gets hit all the time. Greinke was probably just as pissed as Quentin.

If Quentin wants to scream at Greinke because he thinks Greinke is dirty, that's fine. And Greinke has every right to jaw back. But Quentin is the one who started walking towards the mound, so 100% of the responsiblity for the fight is on him IMO.
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