Let's see now, I'm pretty sure Babe Ruth, Nelson Mandela, Indira Gandhi, and Jesus Christ haven't yet weighed in on McGwire...

Oh, and that monkey in the YouTube video that drinks his own pee. I wonder what he's got to say.

Oh yeah? Your beer sucks! Or what used to be your beer before you sold it to the Belgians sucks! In fact, your family made billions perpetuating the greatest fraud ever inflicted on the American people. Great American Lager my semi-sober ass. Between the Busch's and the Coors family, I have to wodner why the purveyors of cheap alcohol set themselves up as such moral purists. #### 'em all. If we legalized cocaine it would be 2 generations before the family that starts Blow 'R' Us is hangion out in Salt Lake City and telling us all we shouldn't masturbate.

<steps down from soap box, apologizes to everyone profusely>

At least Busch IV has been consistently against anything to do with drugs.

Wait a minute Craig, are you saying that August Busch IV isn't the monkey from the YouTube video?

Anyway, I'm glad that since McGwire "confessed"- everyone can focus on baseball.

Let's see now, I'm pretty sure Babe Ruth, Nelson Mandela, Indira Gandhi, and Jesus Christ haven't yet weighed in on McGwire...

Well, there you're wrong.

If we legalized cocaine it would be 2 generations before the family that starts Blow 'R' Us is hangion out in Salt Lake City and telling us all we shouldn't masturbate.

Dear Sir,

I love your business plan.

Sincerely,
'R' Us.

Dear Sir,

I love your business plan.

Sincerely,
'R' Us.

Oh, you're dirty! You dirty man, you.

Oh yeah? Your beer sucks! Or what used to be your beer before you sold it to the Belgians sucks! In fact, your family made billions perpetuating the greatest fraud ever inflicted on the American people. Great American Lager my semi-sober ass. Between the Busch's and the Coors family, I have to wodner why the purveyors of cheap alcohol set themselves up as such moral purists. #### 'em all.

They also perpetrated fraud by stealing the name Budweiser.

Primey for #3.

And agreed. Since when is fraud a bad thing? The way I hear it, greed is good and fraud is even better.

Primey for #3.

Yep. It had to be said.

I read another version of this article in today's NY Times. Its concluding paragraph might provide some insight into Busch's own character:

Busch was chief executive of Anheuser-Busch before it was sold to InBev in 2008. When he was in college, he fled the scene after being involved in a car crash that killed a passenger.

Jeez, I hate when I peak at 9 in the morning. What am I going to do the rest of the day?

Oh yeah? Your beer sucks! Or what used to be your beer before you sold it to the Belgians sucks! In fact, your family made billions perpetuating the greatest fraud ever inflicted on the American people. Great American Lager my semi-sober ass. Between the Busch's and the Coors family, I have to wodner why the purveyors of cheap alcohol set themselves up as such moral purists. #### 'em all. If we legalized cocaine it would be 2 generations before the family that starts Blow 'R' Us is hangion out in Salt Lake City and telling us all we shouldn't masturbate.

<steps down from soap box, apologizes to everyone profusely>

:brofist:

Jeez, I hate when I peak at 9 in the morning. What am I going to do the rest of the day?

Drink a couple cans of that Great American Lager.

Drink a couple cans of that Great American Lager.

You know I could. I am completely alone in the office today. I've got pandora.com cranked up and I've been kicking a soccer ball around. This new set up is paradise.

A couple of things that are "well known" (meaning often-repeated rumor) about Gussie IV (I am pretty sure this is the right Gussie; it's hard to keep track.):

Since Gussie runs (well, ran) a company that produces a mind-altering drug, he was always against any other drug, especially if it was illegal. Rumor also had it that Busch had a plan in place and options at the ready just in case America legalized marijuana. Busch also had the most stringent drug-testing procedure in St. Louis, if you were a contractor without union backing (that's not so much a rumor - I was offered contract work at A-B a few times, but didn't dare because of what my peers had told me).

Gussie hated baseball (which is why he'd quote a batting average as the measure of a man's performance). He thought that he had to fight the game for his father's attention, and had lost. That was why the team was so badly run after his dad died, and also why it was sold so quickly and so cheap.

So all in all, I'd say that Gussie IV is one of the worst, most biased sources you can find on the subject of baseball. - Brock Hanke

Am I misremembering or is McGwire sitting on the bottom of the worst pile-on of the steroid era? Even Bonds and Clemens didn't take this much abuse; who in their right mind would do anything other than stonewall the question after seeing how McGwire's confession was received?

Am I misremembering or is McGwire sitting on the bottom of the worst pile-on of the steroid era? Even Bonds and Clemens didn't take this much abuse; who in their right mind would do anything other than stonewall the question after seeing how McGwire's confession was received?

I think you're misremembering. With Bonds there was a higher concentration of articles in a period that lasted about 2 years.

Maybe, but those were media blowhards. McGwire seems to have everyone, including HOF'ers, jumping on the heap.

Am I misremembering or is McGwire sitting on the bottom of the worst pile-on of the steroid era? Even Bonds and Clemens didn't take this much abuse;

You could be right, but in part this may have to do with the fact that now that McGwire is once again "back in the game," he's being viewed as an "ongoing" story. Such is the nature of what passes for "journalism" these days, and it's hardly unique to sports.

Much as I'm opposed to McGwire's HoF admission, I do have to admit that some of my temporary allies are more than a bit embarrassing. Vote to keep him out of the Hall, but other than that, just let the man do his job in peace.

who in their right mind would do anything other than stonewall the question after seeing how McGwire's confession was received?

Personally, I thought that particular lesson would've been learned years ago, after watching all the "I'd forgive Pete for betting if he'd just admit it" people turn into "How dare Pete gamble and lie to us - burn him!" people once he finally 'fessed up.

How many Gussies were / are there?

Personally, I thought that particular lesson would've been learned years ago, after watching all the "I'd forgive Pete for betting if he'd just admit it" people turn into "How dare Pete gamble and lie to us - burn him!" people once he finally 'fessed up.

I think that's a little different because Rose was so vehiment about his innocence for so long in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Indeed, in his efforts to protect his image, Rose repeatedly impugned the honesty of several honest men who were only relaying the facts.

McGwire was never so shameless about his defense, and I think everyone knew from his Congressional testimony what the score was.

I'm going to attribute McGwire's treatment to racism - racism against gingers.

Am I misremembering or is McGwire sitting on the bottom of the worst pile-on of the steroid era?

People are certainly talking about him; I mean we've got three McGwire threads today alone.

I'm still not totally sure how this can be though, because I could have sworn that the steroids issue had "jumped the shark".

I'm still not totally sure how this can be though, because I could have sworn that the steroids issue had "jumped the shark".

People wanting to bellow in righteous anger never jumps the shark.

How many Gussies were / are there?

He was married, but divorced with no children.

Personally, I thought that particular lesson would've been learned years ago, after watching all the "I'd forgive Pete for betting if he'd just admit it" people turn into "How dare Pete gamble and lie to us - burn him!" people once he finally 'fessed up.

The problem for Pete was there were several different factions, all expressing very different ideas. Yes, there were the group of "If he'd only confess he could be forgiven group." But at the same time, there was an equally large "I believe Pete when he says he didn't gamble," population. Even if he had won over the first group with his confession (which he still managed to bungle by trying to profit from it and announcing it when the Hall of Fame inductee class was being announced), he simultaneously betrayed the second group that had stood by him.

AS SOMEONE WHO REMEMBERS THE BUSCH 4 YEARS AND HOW THIS MAN SINGLE-HANDEDLY CONSPIRED TO DESTROY BASEBALL FOR ST. LOUIS, EFFECTIVELY PISSING ON HIS FATHER'S GRAVE


SHUT THE !@#$ UP YOU LOUSY, SELL OUT!!!

Busch IV is beneath contempt on a number of levels. I'd like it very much if this sanctimonious, trust-fund dooshlord lost all his money and was forced to scrub floors in a rendering plant.

Busch is the one who has committed fraud - by the use of replacement players in spring training in 1994 - and by engaging in a conspiracy and refusing to improve his team during the collusion era.

The problem for Pete was there were several different factions, all expressing very different ideas. Yes, there were the group of "If he'd only confess he could be forgiven group." But at the same time, there was an equally large "I believe Pete when he says he didn't gamble," population. Even if he had won over the first group with his confession (which he still managed to bungle by trying to profit from it and announcing it when the Hall of Fame inductee class was being announced), he simultaneously betrayed the second group that had stood by him.

Isn't this also likely to be true in McGwire's case?

Isn't this also likely to be true in McGwire's case?

It shouldn't be, not after the debacle in front of Congress. Rose is so pathological that regular folks have trouble reading him. That's not really the case for McGwire.

Isn't this also likely to be true in McGwire's case?

No, as a McG supporter, I always knew he did it. I just don't care.

The problem for Pete was there were several different factions, all expressing very different ideas. Yes, there were the group of "If he'd only confess he could be forgiven group." But at the same time, there was an equally large "I believe Pete when he says he didn't gamble," population...

Exactly, and a large portion of those who believed Pete was innocent, felt betrayed, and also felt that Pete had made them look stupid, and also I've known 2 Rose fans who stopped being Rose fans after starting to read his book...

OTOH I hated Rose when he was playing, always, I hated the way the media fawned over him, I was GLEEFUL when it became obvious that Rose had obsessively collected and documented his own paraphernalia over the long years- had always done so with the intent of selling and profiting from it (at the time writers had noticed his obsession with saving his bats, balls, even uniforms- and reported on it as a sign of Rose's love for the game... suckers)

well Ty Cobb is in, Cap Anson is in, unless Rose conspired with gamblers to throw games (and I know of no real evidence for THAT), he should go in the HOF.

You want a disincentive to be honest check out the IOC. When a batch of Canadians came out and said what happened and how back in the late 80's what did the IOC and all other organizations do? Remove all records, medals, etc. from the athletes who admitted doing drugs at any time while allowing the East Germans (well known to have been on drugs) and other known steroid abusers to keep theirs as they never admitted it (I think all but one of the starting line for the 100 meter dash in 1988 have since been caught on drugs but only Johnson lost his medal). So if you are an Olympic athlete do not ever, ever, ever admit to anything.

In baseball we have seen a couple of approaches. Pettite, A-Rod, and Giambi have pretty much been forgiven for their drug use for now. McGwire is really the first retired one to admit it though so we'll see what happens with strongly suspected ones like Sosa, Clemens, Bonds, a caught one in Palmeiro, and a lightly suspected one in Piazza. All were pretty much locks for the HOF without drug use like McGwire was, so it will be instructive to see how it works out. If Sosa/Clemens/Bonds do better than McGwire in the ballot then we know being honest is useless. If McGwire climbs and those 3 stay low then being honest is a plus to voters. Palmeiro will be very interesting with his being caught at the end of his career and the ugly way he dealt with it. Piazza will be even more interesting to see if 'back acne' causes him to be blackballed as well.

I hated the way the media fawned over him, I was GLEEFUL when it became obvious that Rose had obsessively collected and documented his own paraphernalia over the long years- had always done so with the intent of selling and profiting from it (at the time writers had noticed his obsession with saving his bats, balls, even uniforms- and reported on it as a sign of Rose's love for the game... suckers

Rose actually changed uniform shirts every half-inning while he was trying to pass Ty Cobb's hit total, so that he would have 17 or 18 authentic "from THE game" shirts to sell, instead of just the one. If he could have faced Eric Show with fifty bats, he would have.

Isn't this also likely to be true in McGwire's case?

No, as a McG supporter, I always knew he did it. I just don't care.

And the thing is, very few people seemed to care until--when exactly? Most thought either it was no big deal (the effect wasn't much more than weight-training without using the stuff, and what was the effect of that?), and besides it was legal and not against official MLB rules--so what are you gonna do? McGwire was suspected of steroid use at least since he became seriously buffed. Until it became apparent, though, that perhaps many other players were following suit, and when they began getting caught at it, and a rule(s) were passed, most of us were just shrugging it all off. Reminds somewhat of how 9/11 changed our attitude not just prospectively but retroactively about what should have been done and how the respective authorities and players in this game should have behave. All very result oriented. Let's all now sing the Groucho song, "Whatever it is, I'm against it."

There are 4 Gussies, so far, and I sort of assume that another one is in childhood, although I don't really follow the family gossip. Essentially, "Gussie" is the family nickname for all the men whose real name is "August A. Busch." So there's Gussie, who merged his company with that of a man named "Anheuser", Gussie Jr. Gussie III, and Gussie IV. The sports media, when the older man died, were so used to calling the family patriarch "Gussie" that they were never good about differentiating which Gussie it was they were talking about this time. I was afraid that the last Cardinal owner might turn out to be Gussie III or something so I tried to be careful.

I also agree with the post right above this one that Palmeiro's HoF vote total will be a referendum of sorts on selling your teammate's reputation out. Which means that, in part, it is a referendum on Jose Canseco's behavior, instead of just his steroid use.

With the steroids guys, there are two questions: "Did he do it?" and "Did he get anything out of it if he did do it?". The main positive about the current McGwire discussion is that at last we seem to actually be be discussing the right question, which is "Did he get anything out of any steroids he might have done?" If the answer turns out to be Nothing or Very Little, then the record 70 homers, which has 9 taters of margin to work with, stands. There is precious little info on just how much steroids do, and given the variety of steroids, I don't see how there ever can be much. Different steroids can produce different effects on different people, and we don't know which ones do how much for whom. And then there's the question of how much better the pitchers were, which waters down the size of the gain again.

With Rose, there's really just "Did he do it?". The laws and rules on the subject of gambling are not in doubt, because here is no real doubt where it leads. You're down tens of thousands of dollars, which everyone is eventually, and the bookies start to offer to mark it off if you fork over info they can use to make money on other bets besides yours. Your hands stay "clean," and you continue to believe you're doing it all with the good of the team and the game kept firmly in check. Which, pretty much, is Pete Rose's current argument.

well Ty Cobb is in, Cap Anson is in, unless Rose conspired with gamblers to throw games (and I know of no real evidence for THAT), he should go in the HOF.

Except for two things: first, with Rose, you have an infraction that is expressly forbitten in MLB law with a prescribed penalty; second, Rose's infraction is prohibited on bases that are not murky at all. No one that I know seriously argues that what Rose did doesn't matter. No one with half a brain, anyway. There is a history--a long history--with regard to what Rose did, both as to cause and effect. It seems to me that Rose's crime goes to the integrity of the game. It ain't just a present day social more that was violated. That proposition is, at least, not at all settled as to steroids. Or wasn't for all the period in question.

Or is (was) it?

Am I misremembering or is McGwire sitting on the bottom of the worst pile-on of the steroid era? Even Bonds and Clemens didn't take this much abuse; who in their right mind would do anything other than stonewall the question after seeing how McGwire's confession was received?

The cover-up is always treated worse than the crime. You should insert "insincere and half-thruth'd" before the word confession and read that again.

I'm going to attribute McGwire's treatment to racism - racism against gingers.

Hmm, first steroids to steal our hearts, what's he do to steal our souls?

The problem for Pete was there were several different factions, all expressing very different ideas. Yes, there were the group of "If he'd only confess he could be forgiven group." But at the same time, there was an equally large "I believe Pete when he says he didn't gamble," population. Even if he had won over the first group with his confession (which he still managed to bungle by trying to profit from it and announcing it when the Hall of Fame inductee class was being announced), he simultaneously betrayed the second group that had stood by him.

Isn't this also likely to be true in McGwire's case?

I should clarify what I meant by this, which was merely that on balance, the number of "He confessed and so now I'll forgive him" voters are going to be roughly balanced by the "I thought he was juicing but I was giving him the benefit of the doubt because he's innocent until proven guilty, but now I can't do that" voters.

Obviously people like sunnday2 who were indifferent towards his juicing to begin with aren't changing their minds, nor are people like me who saw his congressional non-testimony as a de facto confession, and would never have voted for him after that. But unless McGwire turns into the world's greatest batting coach and the Cardinals put up a 120 OPS+ and win the World Series, I can't see his HoF total moving too much one way or the other over the next year.

I'm going to attribute McGwire's treatment to racism - racism against gingers.

I always hated Cream, because of Ginger Baker, and don't get me started on Christopher Evan and his Ginger productions. Ginger Ale, Gingerbread all stink.

I always hated Cream, because of Ginger Baker, and don't get me started on Christopher Evan and his Ginger productions. Ginger Ale, Gingerbread all stink.

Not to mention Mary Anne was much hotter.

And Fred Astaire could have easily danced both ends of those pas de deux hoedowns all by himself.

I stand with Whitey and Jack the Ripper.

AB IV can go ##### himself.