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Tuesday, March 14, 2017

The Yankees vs The Universe: Who Ya Got?

Mike Schmidt: The greatest of them all. But third base presents an interesting dilemma: Considering their careers in total, A-Rod and Schmidt are essentially a push. Had A-Rod played his entire career at the hottest of corners, Schmidt’s unquestioned status as the best of them all… is now questionable. Is it A-Rod’s fault he was good enough to play short?

———

Yogi Berra: His post-baseball persona as a diminutive, cuddly fount of absurdist Zen koans bears no resemblance to the man in his playing days. He was revered by the writers (and his teammates) for his toughness, intelligence, skill and leadership on the field, and he dominated the MVP vote during his prime. His year-by-year MVP finishes, 1950-1956: Third, first, fourth, second, first, first, second.

gehrig97 Posted: March 14, 2017 at 10:18 AM | 53 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: alex rodriguez, babe ruth, derek jeter,, honus wagner, joe dimaggio, joe morgan, lou gehrig, mickey mantle, mike schmidt, willie mays, yankees

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   1. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: March 14, 2017 at 12:49 PM (#5417164)
Does anyone else besides the author have Bob Gibson in their list of top 10 starters?

From TFA: Clemens, Grove, Maddux, Walter and Randy Johnson, Pedro, Alexander, Seaver, Koufax and Gibson on the non-Yankees side.

I'd go with Mathewson or perhaps Mordecai Brown if you overlook his relatively short career, which the author also seems to be doing by including Koufax in his list.
   2. Mefisto Posted: March 14, 2017 at 12:51 PM (#5417165)
It's not at all clear that a Yankees team made up according to his rules would even win a pennant race against similarly constructed other teams. It's the pitching where other teams stand out.

   3. Mefisto Posted: March 14, 2017 at 12:59 PM (#5417171)
Yankees pitchers: SP Ford, Gomez, Guidry, Hoyt, Pennock
RP Rivera, Gossage, Lyle, Righetti

Giants pitchers: SP Mathewson, Hubbell, Marichal, Perry, Rusie
RP Wilhelm, Miller, Lavelle, Linzy

Yankees bullpen is better, but Giants starters are MUCH better.

Or consider the Red Sox starters: SP Clemens, Young, J. Wood, Kinder, Martinez

Braves: Maddux, Smoltz, Niekro, Glavine, Spahn

Phillies: Carlton, Roberts, Alexander, Bunning, Schilling
   4. Baldrick Posted: March 14, 2017 at 01:18 PM (#5417190)
The article caused a bit of a stir on The Facebook and baseballthinkfactory. Folks are very protective of their legends – the mere suggestion that Lou Gehrig might have competition as the starting first baseman on the “All-Time Team” was enough to ruffle the dander of some Yankees fans.

I hate hate hate stuff like this.

The thread here on this question was about 50 times more interesting and more engaging than the original post. Get over yourself.
   5. Rusty Priske Posted: March 14, 2017 at 01:36 PM (#5417205)
The 'Universe' may have a 'slight advantage' using Johnny Bench, but they have an even bigger advantage if they used Josh Gibson.

And then I have the same reaction that I had from the first article... Pujols? Seriously?
   6. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: March 14, 2017 at 01:45 PM (#5417212)
I don't think the outfield is a draw. Sorry, but no.
   7. Mefisto Posted: March 14, 2017 at 01:48 PM (#5417215)
Yeah, the article is pretty charitable to the Yankees.
   8. Lassus Posted: March 14, 2017 at 01:58 PM (#5417220)
7. Mefisto Posted: March 14, 2017 at 01:48 PM
Well I will be damned.
   9. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: March 14, 2017 at 02:07 PM (#5417221)
Yeah, the article is pretty charitable to the Yankees.

Yeah, in the outfield "DRAW" I'd say he was stretching it, but not really anywhere else. And it's certainly clear that that "ENORMOUS ADVANTAGE" to the Universe's starting pitchers would make the eventual winner of such a matchup inevitable, which he admits.

Over the course of a full season, the all-time Yankees lose significantly more than they win – but would it stretch credulity to suggest this team could win a short series against the “All-Time” squad?


IMO he's right on both counts, though it obviously would take peak performance from those Yankees starters to let them win even a short series.
   10. Captain Supporter Posted: March 14, 2017 at 02:16 PM (#5417231)
Any list of the of the very greatest players of all time that has Billy Wagner (he of the 10.03 postseason ERA) meriting even a mention is hard to take seriously.

On the other hand, I think the outfield is actually pretty close, but that is because I would greatly discount the Bonds swollen head period.
   11. Adam Starblind Posted: March 14, 2017 at 02:21 PM (#5417234)
Mets SP: Seaver, Gooden, Cone, Koosman, Fernandez (stacks up pretty well)
RP: Franco, Benitez, Orosco, Familia, McGraw (eh. but "bulk of his career" relievers isn't a very interesting category)
   12. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: March 14, 2017 at 02:37 PM (#5417244)
Yogi Berra: His post-baseball persona as a diminutive, cuddly fount of absurdist Zen koans bears no resemblance to the man in his playing days. He was revered by the writers (and his teammates) for his toughness, intelligence, skill and leadership on the field, and he dominated the MVP vote during his prime. His year-by-year MVP finishes, 1950-1956: Third, first, fourth, second, first, first, second.

Holy recycling, Batman! Funny, I read this exact line in Lehrman's book about the MVP voting just last night.
   13. Lassus Posted: March 14, 2017 at 02:47 PM (#5417256)
Mets SP: Seaver, Gooden, Cone, Koosman, Fernandez (stacks up pretty well)

We're not allowed to use Thor yet?
   14. joeysdadjoe Posted: March 14, 2017 at 02:58 PM (#5417262)
I would have liked them to elaborate more on the outfield. Ruth is #1 regardless. Mantle and DiMaggio are 5 and 6 or 4 and 6. Amazing that one team stacks up this well to the field. Also Bill James had Berra 1 and Bench 2.
   15. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: March 14, 2017 at 03:03 PM (#5417266)
Mantle and DiMaggio are 5 and 6 or 4 and 6.


Is Mantle beating Bonds, Williams or Mays? Because no disrespect to Mr. Mantle, but I will take all three over him. Joltin' Joe, of course, trails the pack (but it is a mighty pack indeed).
   16. gehrig97 Posted: March 14, 2017 at 03:05 PM (#5417267)
@12: Totally guilty as charged! (And thanks so much for getting the book -- truly appreciated)
   17. Adam Starblind Posted: March 14, 2017 at 03:10 PM (#5417271)
Mets SP: Seaver, Gooden, Cone, Koosman, Fernandez (stacks up pretty well)

We're not allowed to use Thor yet?


Ok, sorry El Sid.
   18. gehrig97 Posted: March 14, 2017 at 03:56 PM (#5417291)
@4: My bad. Sloppy writing on my part. The reference was really to Facebook--should've been more clear. The post has been edited to reflect this.

(And I'm so over myself. Believe me.)
   19. Baldrick Posted: March 14, 2017 at 04:02 PM (#5417296)
@4: My bad. Sloppy writing on my part. The refernce was really to Facebook--should've ben more clear. The post has been edited to reflect this.

Thanks for a friendly response to a snarky comment.
   20. gehrig97 Posted: March 14, 2017 at 04:07 PM (#5417300)
It was an accurate comment. Not to "explain the process" (because really, who cares?), but sometimes I'm in such a rush to get these stories posted I miss things. The best thing about BBTF? They hold you to a higher standard (in a good way).
   21. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: March 14, 2017 at 04:23 PM (#5417312)
@12: Totally guilty as charged! (And thanks so much for getting the book -- truly appreciated)

My pleasure - I'm enjoying it so far.
   22. He who brought the butter dish to Balshazar (CoB) Posted: March 14, 2017 at 04:24 PM (#5417314)
The Yankees versus the entire universe?

I'm taking this fella.
   23. dlf Posted: March 14, 2017 at 04:48 PM (#5417331)
Yankees pitchers: SP Ford, Gomez, Guidry, Hoyt, Pennock
RP Rivera, Gossage, Lyle, Righetti

...

Braves: Maddux, Smoltz, Niekro, Glavine, Spahn


Depending on your view of timelining, Kid Nichols may break into the Braves' starting five and is easily better than any of the Yanks starters.
   24. toratoratora Posted: March 14, 2017 at 04:57 PM (#5417337)
Heck, the Yanks are likely not even the best team in their division.

Yaz
Doerr or The Hobbit
Nomar
Boggs
Williams
Speaker
Manny
Fisk
(DH) Papi

Young
Clemens
Pedro
Grove or Tiant
Wood

Paps

Good as the Sox are, the Giants are the team to beat in any against the universe game. They have HoF level depth that leaves the other teams in the dirt

McCovey or Roger Conner or John Mize or Bill Terry or Cepeda or or this is ridiculous
Frisch or Kent
Dahlen or Irvin
Williams
Mays
Bonds
Ott
Posey

Hubble
Matty
Marichal
Perry
Keefe or Joss or Lincecum or McGinnity

   25. Davo's Favorite Tacos Are Moose Tacos Posted: March 14, 2017 at 05:14 PM (#5417350)
The Padres want to play:

C: Benito Santiago
1B: Adrian Gonzalez
2B: Mark Loretta
3B: Phil Nevin
SS: Garry Templeton
LF: Nate Colbert
CF: Dave Winfield
RF: Tony Gwynn

SP: Jake Peavy
SP: Andy Ashby
SP: Randy Jones
SP: Eric Show
SP: Andy Benes
   26. BDC Posted: March 14, 2017 at 05:37 PM (#5417370)
Good as the Sox are, the Giants are the team to beat in any against the universe game. They have HoF level depth that leaves the other teams in the dirt

In the one dice-baseball season I ever played, based on a Sports Illustrated game that came out in the early '70s, the Giants beat the Yankees in the World Series. The Giants, as of ~1972, had talent to burn: I started Mel Ott at 3B to set up great OF platoons. I used a 6-man rotation. They didn't have Bonds or Kent or Posey (or Frisch, who was a Cardinal in the game). They still won the tougher league handily.

The then-Yankees ran away with the AL, though. They list their season series to Cleveland (great pitching) but they feasted on everybody else. They had Red Rolfe at 3B and Joe Gordon at 2B. Was Gordon at his peak as good as Cano at his (relative to league)?
   27. chisoxcollector Posted: March 14, 2017 at 06:11 PM (#5417385)
The White Sox don't stack up very well:

C: Carlton Fisk
1B: Paul Konerko
2B: Eddie Collins
3B: Robin Ventura
SS: Luke Appling
LF: Minnie Miñoso
CF: Ugh, Fielder Jones?
RF: Either Shoeless Joe (if you count him as a RF) or Magglio Ordonez
DH: Frank Thomas

SP: Ed Walsh
SP: Pick any 4 of Lyons, Faber, Cicotte, Wood, Pierce, and Buehrle

Closer: Hoyt Wilhelm
   28. Walt Davis Posted: March 14, 2017 at 06:45 PM (#5417396)
Too lazy to check the criteria but ...

C: Hartnett
1B: Anson (or Chance/Grace if racist ######## aren't allowed)
2B: Sandberg
3B: Santo/Hack
SS: Banks
LF: Williams
RF: Sosa
CF: yeah ... Hack Wilson
DH: Probably put Hack Wilson here and finagle a real CF but otherwise Hack/Chance/Grace/Swish/Cavaretta/Riggs/whatever

SP: Jenkins, Maddux, Brown, Alexander, Reuschel (if we play in a bWAR league :-), Vaughn, Root

RP: Smith and Sutter and not much else in true RP candidates. By HoF standards, that's pretty good though.

Pretty nice depth too with Tinker, Herman, Evers, Hack, the leftover 1B, corner OF ... pretty much everything except a CF who can hit and field; back-up C is nothing special.

Hey, Zambrano is top 10 all-time in Cub pitcher WAR.
   29. toratoratora Posted: March 14, 2017 at 07:05 PM (#5417404)
The then-Yankees ran away with the AL, though.


Post 72 the Sox added Fisk, Boggs, Nomar, Pedroia, Clemens and Pedro. That makes a pretty darn big difference.
The Yanks have the edge in Offense and a decent edge in defense (Especially OF, though the Sox can change that by playing Papi at first, DH Ted and put Yaz in Left or by tossing Dewey in the mix instead of Manny) but the Sox have such an advantage in SP that I see them as being tough to beat. Their all time staff is seriously to ridiculously stacked.

The Giants though,they have HoF stacked two deep at least at almost every position. Their one weakness was Catcher and Posey fills that spot nicely.
   30. something like a train wreck Posted: March 14, 2017 at 07:07 PM (#5417409)
i'll play:
C: Cochrane or Freehan
1b: Greenberg
2b Gehringer
SS: Trammell
3B: Miggy (maybe cheating)
OF: Cobb, Kaline, Heilmann
SP: Verlander, Newhouser, Lolich, Morris, McLain
RP: Hernandez, Hiller

Pitching is 3rd rate, but if you'll give me Cabrera at 3rd, pretty damn good otherwise.
   31. Adam Starblind Posted: March 14, 2017 at 08:14 PM (#5417433)
1B: Oh god, this is bad. Duda? Kranepool? John Milner?
2B: Alfonzo
SS: Reyes
3B: Wright
LF: McReynolds or Cleon Jones?
CF: Mookie?
RF: Strawberry
C: Piazza (Hundley if you don't think Piazza qualifies)

This has to be one of the worst sets of position players overall.
   32. Walt Davis Posted: March 14, 2017 at 08:48 PM (#5417443)
Here's what putting together all-time teams was like before b-r ... my ignorance of the Angels:

C: not a clue, Downing wasn't really a C for the Angels
1B: Carew probably (obviously if we include his Twins career)
2B: Grich
SS: Fregosi
3B: not a clue, must be forgetting somebody
LF: Downing
CF: Can't think of one. :-)
RF: Salmon
DH: Vlad (or Reggie or Baylor)
SP: Ryan, that guy from the 60s, ummm this shouldn't be this hard

Does Trout have more WAR than the entire Mets lineup yet? :-)
RP: K-Rod, Percival
   33. JJ1986 Posted: March 14, 2017 at 08:51 PM (#5417445)
1B: Oh god, this is bad. Duda? Kranepool? John Milner?
I'd say you can take Keith. The Cardinals have Pujols.
   34. Walt Davis Posted: March 14, 2017 at 09:08 PM (#5417459)
Does anyone else besides the author have Bob Gibson in their list of top 10 starters?

Well, it was one hell of a peak along with awesome post-season performance. Gibson's rep at the time was pretty off the charts -- take the perceived dominance of Nolan Ryan and the perceived clutchiness of Jack Morris, a smidgen of Koufaxian awestruckedness thanks to 1968 and add them to a genuinely outstanding peak and outstanding postseason performance ... the man put up 30 bWAR in 3 years (1968-1970) let's just say that if you lived through it (and I missed the best parts), you wouldn't be surprised by such a placement. (Deserve's got nothing to do with it.)

Also timelining.

Mainly what us old farts forget about Gibson is that his career wasn't really that long by the standards of the day, "just" 3900 innings. He didn't nail down a job until 25, his last excellent season was at 36. But those 12 seasons were 76 WAR, 48 WAA even if it was just a measly 260 innings a year. :-)

Still, for exactly ages 25-36, that puts him only 6th all-time, a smidgen behind Maddux, a smidgen ahead of Seaver, well behind Clemens, Grove and Alexander and way behind W Johnson (as is everybody really). He had more IP than those more recent guys as well -- up to you if that's a positive (we love CGs!) or a negative (much lower WAR/IP).

For pitchers with careers of 3200 to 4800 innings (he's roughly the middle of that range), he's 5th in WAR but it's not an overly impressive group of pitchers -- he's in the same range as Schilling and Mussina, all three way behind Grove and R Johnson. Which just gets us back to the notion that folks probably don't realize how short his career was. W Johnson, Maddux, Clemens, Spahn, Perry, etc. went past that 4500 inning cut-off (with Gibson 600+ IP short of it).

EDIT: But I meant to add, if your life depended on one game, you could do a lot worse than ask peak Gibson to start it.
EDIT2: And with 2 10-WAR seasons, Gibson has as many as any post-expansion pitcher (21 total). His 3 seasons of 8.5+ are topped only by Clemens and R Johnson, tied by Pedro. That's partly an IP thing of course.
   35. BDC Posted: March 14, 2017 at 11:02 PM (#5417512)
Rangers don't have a bad lineup if they can take their B-12:

C Ivan Rodriguez
1B Rafael Palmeiro
2B Ian Kinsler
3B Adrian Beltre
SS Elvis Andrus
LF Juan Gonzalez
CF Josh Hamilton
RF Rusty Greer
DH Jeff Burroughs

SP Charlie Hough, Kenny Rogers, Rick Helling, Yu Darvish
RP Jeff Russell? Jeff Zimmerman? Mitch Moreland?

Hard to find pitchers who starred in Arlington but wouldn't be claimed by other teams. Till Pudge was inducted all the "Ranger HOFers" were in that category: Perry, Jenkins, Blyleven, Ryan, even Gossage.
   36. Everybody Loves Tyrus Raymond Posted: March 14, 2017 at 11:22 PM (#5417518)
The Reds would have a nice everyday lineup:

C- Bench
1B - Votto
2B- Morgan
3B- Rose
SS- Larkin
LF- Foster
CF- E Davis
RF- F Robinson
DH- Perez

   37. Cooper Nielson Posted: March 14, 2017 at 11:24 PM (#5417519)
Yankees: Ford, Gomez, Guidry, Pettitte, Ruffing

It's interesting that the Yankees haven't ever really produced an inner-circle HOF type starting pitcher despite doing so at most other positions.

However, if you redefined the rules a little, you could give this rotation to the Yankees-vs.-the-Universe team:

Clemens, R. Johnson, Mussina, P. Niekro, K. Brown

If you consider their entire careers, not just their time with New York, that's pretty special.
   38. Everybody Loves Tyrus Raymond Posted: March 14, 2017 at 11:31 PM (#5417520)
You could give them Gaylord Perry too.
   39. Walt Davis Posted: March 15, 2017 at 12:43 AM (#5417532)
The Reds would have a nice everyday lineup:

Alas, the last word that should be associated with Eric Davis is "everyday." Better have a back-up ready for that guy.
   40. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: March 15, 2017 at 04:37 AM (#5417544)
Good as the Sox are, the Giants are the team to beat in any against the universe game. They have HoF level depth that leaves the other teams in the dirt
...
Hubble
Matty
Marichal
Perry
Keefe or Joss or Lincecum or McGinnity



Hubble was out of this world.
   41. Adam Starblind Posted: March 15, 2017 at 07:02 AM (#5417551)

However, if you redefined the rules a little, you could give this rotation to the Yankees-vs.-the-Universe team: Clemens, R. Johnson, Mussina, P. Niekro, K. Brown


A little? That's a very different question. Here's the Mets:

Seaver, Pedro, Spahn, Glavine/Ryan/Gooden/Cone/Saberhagen/Santana
   42. weiss-man Posted: March 15, 2017 at 09:44 AM (#5417580)
Yeah, the way I play it is that players should have played more for their team than any other team. That gives Fisk to the White Sox, not the Red Sox. Cano remains a Yankee until he finishes his 10th Mariners season.
   43. Swoboda is freedom Posted: March 15, 2017 at 10:34 AM (#5417612)

A little? That's a very different question. Here's the Mets:

Seaver, Pedro, Spahn, Glavine/Ryan/Gooden/Cone/Saberhagen/Santana


Does that mean they get Berra at catcher, Mays at CF too?
   44. Mefisto Posted: March 15, 2017 at 11:13 AM (#5417649)
If you're going to play this game, the rule has to be that a player "belongs" to the team for which he's most known/produced the most value -- Ruth is a Yankee, Morgan goes to the Reds. If that's not definitive, then he goes to the team which originally brought him up -- Collins goes to the As even though he had great seasons with the ChiSox.
   45. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: March 15, 2017 at 11:48 AM (#5417678)
If you're going to play this game, the rule has to be that a player "belongs" to the team for which he's most known/produced the most value -- Ruth is a Yankee, Morgan goes to the Reds. If that's not definitive, then he goes to the team which originally brought him up -- Collins goes to the As even though he had great seasons with the ChiSox.

A third way might be to restrict the teams to players who never put on any other uniform, meaning the Yankees would still have Gehrig and Jeter but they'd lose Ruth and Berra. The team that would be completely destroyed by that rule would be the A's, who wouldn't retain a single player from any other version of their all-franchise team.
   46. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: March 15, 2017 at 11:53 AM (#5417682)
A third way might be to restrict the teams to players who never put on any other uniform, meaning the Yankees would still have Gehrig and Jeter but they'd lose Ruth and Berra. The team that would be completely destroyed by that rule would be the A's, who wouldn't retain a single player from any other version of their all-franchise team.


Mets would be screwed. They'd be down to:

Ed Kranepool
Ron Hodges
David Wright
   47. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: March 15, 2017 at 12:14 PM (#5417696)
A third way might be to restrict the teams to players who never put on any other uniform, meaning the Yankees would still have Gehrig and Jeter but they'd lose Ruth and Berra. The team that would be completely destroyed by that rule would be the A's, who wouldn't retain a single player from any other version of their all-franchise team.

Mets would be screwed. They'd be down to:

Ed Kranepool
Ron Hodges
David Wright


The Yankees would take a hit, especially at 2B, but they'd probably do better than most, and these guys all played a minimum of 10 years:

1B Gehrig
2B Bobby Richardson
SS Jeter
3B Gil McDougald
OF Dimaggio, Mantle, Bernie Williams
C Bill Dickey
DH Mattingly
SP Ford, Guidry, Mel Stottlemyre, Spud Chandler
RP Rivera
   48. Mefisto Posted: March 15, 2017 at 12:51 PM (#5417719)
I think Andy's rules are absurdly restrictive -- why should the Braves lose Aaron because he went to the Brewers for 2 meaningless years?

But just to play along, here's my best shot at a Giants lineup (off memory, so if somebody got traded late, I'm wrong):

C: Posey
1B: Terry
2B: Doyle/Thompson
SS: Crawford
3B: Hart/Doyle
LF: Irvin
CF: Youngs
RF: Ott

SP: Mathewson, Hubbell, Rusie, Cain
   49. Cooper Nielson Posted: March 15, 2017 at 01:01 PM (#5417726)
A little? That's a very different question. Here's the Mets:

Seaver, Pedro, Spahn, Glavine/Ryan/Gooden/Cone/Saberhagen/Santana


Whoa, I forgot that Spahn ever pitched for non-Braves teams. That's an excellent rotation, obviously, but I'm not convinced it's better than the Yankees' "at-least-he-passed-through" rotation, especially if you include Perry instead of Brown. (I think he only pitched 10 games for the Yankees -- that was low even by my liberal standards that allowed Brown, Johnson, and Niekro. Those guys at least spent two seasons in New York -- Niekro even made an All-Star team.)

Head to head, I'd say Clemens is better than Seaver, Johnson probably takes Pedro because he had a longer career and also had a brilliant peak (if perhaps not as brilliant as Pedro's), Spahn and Niekro (or Perry) might be a wash, though I'm happy to give Spahn war credit and declare him the winner. When you get down to Glavine and Ryan vs. Mussina and Brown (or Perry/Niekro), there's not much difference, except in reputation.
   50. Davo's Favorite Tacos Are Moose Tacos Posted: March 15, 2017 at 01:46 PM (#5417766)
The Reds get a ton of help in the rotation when we relax the rules :)

C: Johnny Bench
1B: Joey Votto
2B: Joe Morgan
3B: Pete Rose
SS: Barry Larkin
LF: Frank Robinson
CF: Ken Griffey Jr
RF: Al Simmons/Sam Crawford/Harry Heilmann

SP: Christy Mathewson
SP: Tom Seaver
SP: Old Hoss Radbourn
SP: Amos Rusie
SP: Mordecai "3-Finger" Brown
SP: Dazzy Vance
   51. Mefisto Posted: March 15, 2017 at 02:28 PM (#5417801)
I forgot Bumgarner for the Giants in 48. I don't know if they'd make the post-season, but if they did they'd have the 3 of the greatest post-season pitchers of all time in their rotation.
   52. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: March 15, 2017 at 02:28 PM (#5417802)
On the other hand, an only-Reds rotation gets pretty thin:

C: Johnny Bench
1B: Joey Votto
2B: Bid McPhee
3B: Dave Concepcion [120 games at 3B]
SS: Barry Larkin
LF: Bug Holliday
CF: Billy Hamilton
RF: John Reilly

SP: Mario Soto
SP: Homer Bailey
SP: Harry Gaspar
RP: Raisel Iglesias
[and damn Tom Browning with his two starts for Kansas City]
   53. Lassus Posted: March 15, 2017 at 02:48 PM (#5417818)
Head to head, I'd say Clemens is better than Seaver

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