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Saturday, August 04, 2018

Three prospects who could be the final piece in Archer trade - Minor League Ball

You include PTBNL for a reason. Most likely they haven’t settled on the player and will wait until some clause of the deal is satisfied. Steve Phillips recently talked about making a deal where one party would get a better prospect if the other team made the playoffs. (Sorry, I can’t remember the details.)

Jim Furtado Posted: August 04, 2018 at 01:10 PM | 17 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: pirates, ray

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   1. Rennie's Tenet Posted: August 04, 2018 at 03:15 PM (#5720959)
There was one report that the third player would be "significant ... the kind of player who our fans already know his name", but since it was only sourced to someone in the organization that could have a whole range of meanings. Taken at face value, that would probably be someone with major league experience.
   2. Sunday silence Posted: August 04, 2018 at 03:44 PM (#5720969)
It was Neil Huntington who was quoted as saying that so...be prepared to be upset. PIT needed front line pitching but it looks like TB will win this in the long run
   3. Red Voodooin Posted: August 04, 2018 at 03:49 PM (#5720971)
There was one report that the third player would be "significant ... the kind of player who our fans already know his name", but since it was only sourced to someone in the organization that could have a whole range of meanings. Taken at face value, that would probably be someone with major league experience.


That seems odd. I always remember a PTBNL, if at all significant, to be a prospect or a AAAA-type that might have been hitting waivers otherwise. I don't recall any precedent for a deal with a significant major league piece included as the PTBNL, presumably with the idea of "hey you are trying to get into the playoffs this year, so go ahead and keep the guy for the rest of the season and then send him on over at the end of the year."

I'm trying to imagine how trades like that might work.

Suppose it was the Cubs who traded for Archer; the deal is for a couple minor leaguers and a PTBNL, which at the end of the season becomes Ian Happ or Albert Almora. The Rays get a young MLB position player starter for 2019, the Cubs keep their deep lineup through the playoffs this year, and the Cubs might do this knowing or thinking they are going to go after Harper (or whoever) and so while they need Happ now, they know he will be superfluous come 2019.

Something about that scenario seems like it would be against the rules (though I'm not sure which, maybe a CBA rule?) otherwise we might have seen it before.
   4. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: August 04, 2018 at 03:56 PM (#5720976)
Didn't Dickie Noles end up being the PTBNL in a trade for himself?
   5. cardsfanboy Posted: August 04, 2018 at 05:22 PM (#5721016)
According to the internet, Harry Chiti was traded for himself(From the Yankees to the Cubs and back to the Cubs 15 days later when he turned out to have sucked)

Dickie Noles, went from the Cubs to the Tigers and when the teams couldn't agree on who the PTBNL was, got Noles back.
Brad Gulden and John McDonald are the other two to be traded for themselves.
   6. cardsfanboy Posted: August 04, 2018 at 05:29 PM (#5721019)

Something about that scenario seems like it would be against the rules (though I'm not sure which, maybe a CBA rule?) otherwise we might have seen it before.


I don't see why it would be against the rules, generally the ptbnl is a list of a small handful of players, and the teams have 6 months after the trade to complete the deal. The only way I think something like that would be against the rules, is if the CBA specifically stated that the ptbnl can be claimed at any time by the receiving team, then you are stuck with a handshake agreement that the Rays don't pull Happ/Almora in September for some reason.

Now if the CBA allows for both teams to control the date of the ptbnl selection (which seems likely) then that would prevent the bad scenario from happening.

   7. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: August 04, 2018 at 05:36 PM (#5721022)
then you are stuck with a handshake agreement that the Rays don't pull Happ/Almora in September for some reason.
Which would be especially unfair, given that Archer went to the Pirates.
   8. Red Voodooin Posted: August 04, 2018 at 07:35 PM (#5721101)
Which would be especially unfair, given that Archer went to the Pirates.


He was responding to my hypothetical posed in #3.
   9. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: August 04, 2018 at 07:46 PM (#5721105)
Well aren't I a dumbass.
   10. Bote Man Posted: August 04, 2018 at 07:58 PM (#5721110)
Danger Zone.
   11. Walt Davis Posted: August 04, 2018 at 11:09 PM (#5721188)
Well the main reason we have a trading deadline and the 2nd waiver trade deadline is to keep teams from lending players out for the stretch run then getting them back. A PTBNL who is currently on a 25-man roster wouldn't be the same thing but close enough in spirit. And I'd be surprised if there wasn't language in the standard contract/CBA somewhere that ruled this out or at least required the team to notify the player. Basically if they're under contract with the Pirates they have to be under Pirates control not some limbo status.

Now I do wonder if in the past we've had a PTBNL who was in the minors at the time but then called up at some point then later used to complete the deal. I suspect that's against the rules too but I wouldn't be surprised if it has happened and everybody agreed not to worry about it.

"Player fans have heard of" could be the #4/5/6 prospect in the system, could be their choice of somebody who's had ML time but is back in the minors -- Nick Kingham, Steven Brault, etc.
   12. JJ1986 Posted: August 05, 2018 at 12:04 AM (#5721193)
I don't know if it's still in the CBA, but previously a PTBNL couldn't play in the majors after the trade but before being sent to his new team.
   13. Bote Man Posted: August 05, 2018 at 12:49 AM (#5721198)
Trea Turner nods knowingly.
   14. Walt Davis Posted: August 05, 2018 at 05:54 PM (#5721410)
Turner was held back under the old "you have to be in the system for a year before you can be traded" rule. I suppose that rule would have applied to Robin Yount and Huston Street and a few others while they were in the majors. And the rule doesn't exist anymore (as you probably know).
   15. Mike Emeigh Posted: August 06, 2018 at 11:55 AM (#5721709)
Harry Chiti was not traded for himself.

Back in the day, teams used to make conditional deals, where the player acquired could be returned to his original team if the acquiring team decided that he wasn't going to work out. That is what happened when Chiti was traded to the Mets - every contemporary account of the deal that I've read notes that it was a conditional deal.

Among others that I know of:
-- In 1914 the Pirates sent Marty O'Toole, for whom they'd paid $22,500 a few years earlier, to the Giants, where he finished out the season. O'Toole pitched poorly in New York, and John McGraw returned him to Pittsburgh after the season was over; the Pirates in turn sold him back to the minors.
-- In 1947, the Pirates made a big deal in May in which they acquired Kirby Higbe and four other players for Al Gionfriddo and $100,000. Hank Behrman, one of the other players, was returned to Brooklyn in mid-June after 10 terrible outings.

-- MWE
   16. geonose Posted: August 06, 2018 at 01:46 PM (#5721780)
I don't know if it's still in the CBA, but previously a PTBNL couldn't play in the majors after the trade but before being sent to his new team.

Additionally, the ptbnl cannot be on a major league roster at the time of the trade, or at any time after before going to the new team. (Unless this was changed in the last CBA.)
   17. Rennie's Tenet Posted: August 06, 2018 at 02:07 PM (#5721797)
#15: High Pockets Kelly was waived from the Giants to Pirates and back in about three weeks in 1917. I've wondered if that were a conditional deal. My sense is that in those days waivers could be pretty informal - if you wanted to do something and someone had a claim in, you'd just make a phone call and ask for a courtesy that'd be returned later.

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