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Monday, April 28, 2008

THT: Jaffe: Franchise Managerial Hiring Tendencies

Muy interesting findings from Jaffe here…

Boston Red Sox: untried and unwanted

The Red Sox have an usual tradition. They’ve hired 16 new managers in their history. Only four ever got hired by another team. And three of them crapped out completely in short order.

That’s interesting, but that’s not what sets them apart. Red Sox newbies have these odd tendencies to amass resumes that would normally lead one to be easily hired by a new team—only no one wants them. They come. They win. They disappear.

Simply put, the Red Sox have cornered the market on men whose reputations are far less impressive than their win-loss records.

Boston won titles under Jimmy Collins and Bill Carrigan. You’d think someone would take a flyer on them. Joe Morgan (not that one), Pinky Higgins, Jack Barry and Eddie Kasko all had winning records. Those kind of managers usually get hired, unless they really haven’t impressed the overall community.

Repoz Posted: April 28, 2008 at 12:28 PM | 15 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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1. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: April 28, 2008 at 01:02 PM (#2761166)

Don't you hate Pants?

2. winnipegwhip Posted: April 28, 2008 at 01:59 PM (#2761207)

Maybe those numbers indicate that the Red Sox hired guys who were past their best days and no one else would take them. (McNamara, Houk and McCarthy come to mind immediately)

3. Cooperstown Schtick Posted: April 28, 2008 at 02:00 PM (#2761208)

Boston won titles under Jimmy Collins and Bill Carrigan. You’d think someone would take a flyer on them.

Collins is mildly surprising, but Carrigan walked away from the game. He voluntarily left baseball and moved up to Maine, and when the Red Sox initially tried to coax him back he refused. Years later they finally got him to return, but Ruth had changed the game on him during his long absence and his style had become dated. The absence of teams "taking a flyer" on Carrigan had much more to do with his own personal decisions than it did with teams choosing to avoid him. He doesn't really belong in the conversation in this context.

4. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: April 28, 2008 at 02:06 PM (#2761213)

I was alwasy surprised that no one ever gave Joe Morgan another chance. People talked in 1988 like he was some sort of genius after he led the Red Sox back for an amazing second half.

Managers who I thought were fairly successful based on win-loss percentage, but never got another shot: Joe Altobelli, Joe Morgan, Tom Trebelhorn, Cito Gaston, Larry Dierker

And yet Phil Garner and Buddy Bell keep getting jobs.

5. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: April 28, 2008 at 02:22 PM (#2761236)

Dag, you're getting to be quite the managerial pundit. Keep it up, your writing is fun stuff.

6. kthejoker Posted: April 28, 2008 at 03:40 PM (#2761324)

I don't think Dierker expressed a lot of interest in managing again after his brain operation. Trebelhorn and others like him (former managers now working as coaches) I suspect didn't like the limelight / public face of the manager position and preferred the instructional / situational decision aspect.

7. SoSH U at work Posted: April 28, 2008 at 03:42 PM (#2761330)

I assumed post No. 1 was going to take me to Dick Williams' BBRef page.

8. John Northey Posted: April 28, 2008 at 05:38 PM (#2761475)

Cito Gaston was known to refuse interviews as he felt it was a waste of time. You know who he is and what he does, so the interview process is a waste of time. I think it was largely due to Bud demanding teams interview a minority candidate and Cito not wanting to be the 'mandatory minority' mainly.

9. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: April 28, 2008 at 05:55 PM (#2761496)

#7: har! good one.

10. Bob Dernier Cri

Posted: April 28, 2008 at 08:35 PM (#2761681)

I don't know if it's meaningful to detect trends in hiring that spans over a century, but it is interesting to note how many managers the Red Sox have had, even during periods when they've been really successful. If Francona lasts the season, he will become, I believe, the third-longest-serving Red Sox manager, after Joe Cronin and Pinky Higgins – with only six years of service. They won four World Series in the 1910s under three different managers. Their last seven managers have served about three years apiece, and six of them have made the playoffs.

Especially long ago, however, it wasn't always the case that a manager was fired or otherwise unwanted. Bill Carrigan, the most successful Sox manager before Francona, ran his own business in Maine and quit baseball to attend to it. Jake Stahl's father-in-law was a Chicago banker, and Stahl also left baseball for the business world.

11. Harveys Wallbangers

Posted: April 28, 2008 at 10:25 PM (#2761794)

I can name three former Brewer managers who would have won the division last season with Trebelhorn at the top of the list.

Tom loved working with young players.

12. JoeHova Posted: April 28, 2008 at 11:09 PM (#2761813)

I can name three former Brewer managers who would have won the division last season with Trebelhorn at the top of the list.

I have fond memories of him as well. It's a shame he got bashed in the article.

13. Fred Garvin still has outstanding warrants Posted: April 28, 2008 at 11:24 PM (#2761826)

Trivia time—when was the last time the Cubs began Opening Day with an untested manager? Stop and think and don't peek until you have a guess. Ready?

1982, with Lee Elia. He's famous as the manager who went on a profanity-laden tirade against his team's own fans.

Before then, you have to go back to 1962 for Bob Kennedy.

I forgot Elia, but I was thinking of someone that you didn't -- Joe Amalfitano, 1981. He had managed the ends of the '79 and '80 seasons when Herman Franks quit and Preston Gomez ran out of town, but I thought you weren't counting part seasons.

14. Dag Nabbit apealing [sic] his own check swing Posted: May 01, 2008 at 03:51 AM (#2764787)

I forgot Elia, but I was thinking of someone that you didn't -- Joe Amalfitano, 1981. He had managed the ends of the '79 and '80 seasons when Herman Franks quit and Preston Gomez ran out of town, but I thought you weren't counting part seasons.

Partial seasons counted. Originally, the article said Bob Kennedy was the last guy, then after submitting it a couple days ago, I had to reopen and fix it. (I figured I really didn't want to make a boneheaded error in a column promoting the fact that I'm writing a book on managers). This is also why the second Elia comment sounds a bit off; originally it was the first Elia comment.

As a result, I had to delete my favorite line from the article- in 25 years of ownership the Trib Co hasn't been able to uncover an untested manager with the pedigree of Terry Bevington.

Dag, you're getting to be quite the managerial pundit. Keep it up, your writing is fun stuff.

Well, I better be; what with the book and all.

15. villageidiom Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:20 AM (#2764805)

I was alwasy surprised that no one ever gave Joe Morgan another chance. People talked in 1988 like he was some sort of genius after he led the Red Sox back for an amazing second half.

I had the impression that the team initially responded so well to his hiring partly because many of them had enjoyed playing for him in the minors (1974-82 in Pawtucket). What's often forgotten about the late-80's Red Sox is how many of their players were products of their own system. Evans, Rice, Boggs, Burks, Greenwell, Gedman, Barrett, Clemens, Hurst, Boyd... Of those, I'd guess Evans was the only one to predate Morgan's AAA tenure, and maybe 2-3 of them (including Clemens) were there after he was "gone" (to the MLB-level coaching staff).

Other teams wouldn't have had the same benefit.

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Monday, April 28, 2008

THT: Jaffe: Franchise Managerial Hiring Tendencies

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