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Thursday, December 04, 2008

Tigers acquire Jack Wilson

Its not just the Big Three in Detroit making questionable management decisions.

It seems to be the week for shortstop roulette on the Hot Stove, and the latest is that the Pirates have sent Jack Wilson to the Tigers.

The teams had been in discussions for a while, but according to a person familiar with the deal, it is done. It’s unclear what the Pirates get in return.

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: December 04, 2008 at 06:31 PM | 37 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: business, tigers

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   1. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 04, 2008 at 07:21 PM (#3020819)
Not a bad situation for Jack. Hope he does well for the Tigers.

I'm pretty curious about what the Pirates got, and how much money they covered.
   2. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: December 04, 2008 at 07:26 PM (#3020829)
Do the Tigers have any prospects? Or even one prospect? I thought they traded them all to Atlanta and Florida and New York.
   3. OCD SS Posted: December 04, 2008 at 07:45 PM (#3020856)
They still have Porcello, but I think it's unlikely he's in this deal.
   4. WTM Posted: December 04, 2008 at 07:48 PM (#3020862)
Kovacevic is saying the deal isn't done, that the Dodgers are still in the running for Wilson.

If Huntington has created a bidding war for Wilson, he should get a Nobel Prize for economics.
   5. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: December 04, 2008 at 07:49 PM (#3020864)
They still have Porcello, but I think it's unlikely he's in this deal.

You'd have to be a ninja to pry Porcello away for Jack Wilson.
   6. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: December 04, 2008 at 07:49 PM (#3020865)
This is a situation where if you could trade draft picks, the Tigers would be trading some.
   7. Jim (jimmuscomp) Posted: December 04, 2008 at 07:56 PM (#3020872)
It’s unclear what the Pirates get in return.


Isn't the answer obvious:

No more Jack Wilson.
   8. Steve Sparks Flying Everywhere Posted: December 04, 2008 at 08:07 PM (#3020890)
"They still have Porcello, but I think it's unlikely he's in this deal."

If the Tigers traded Porcello for Wilson it would be like Kazmir for Zambrano all over again.
   9. Mike Emeigh Posted: December 04, 2008 at 08:12 PM (#3020898)
   10. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 04, 2008 at 08:13 PM (#3020900)
"Isn't the answer obvious:

No more Jack Wilson."


That would be funnier if Jack Wilson weren't a) a decent starter, b) the team's best shortstop by a large margin, and c) putting no significant strain on the budget.
   11. Gaylord Perry the Platypus (oi!) Posted: December 04, 2008 at 08:13 PM (#3020901)
No more Jack Wilson.

That seems like a good return. If the Pirates got anything resembling a prospect without paying salary, then Huntington is one heck of a GM.
   12. Dewey, Soupuss Not Doomed to Succeed Posted: December 04, 2008 at 08:14 PM (#3020903)
Do the Tigers have any prospects? Or even one prospect? I thought they traded them all to Atlanta and Florida and New York.

Does it matter? Would you need to include any prospects to get Jack Wilson?
   13. zonk Posted: December 04, 2008 at 08:15 PM (#3020905)
c) putting no significant strain on the budget.


Doesn't Wilson have a contract that's a fair bit over his true value? I realize it's about up, and maybe it's not totally onerous... but still.
   14. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 04, 2008 at 08:15 PM (#3020906)
"If the Pirates got anything resembling a prospect without paying salary, then Huntington is one heck of a GM."

FWIW, during the Dodger negotiations this winter, the Pirates were reportedly willing to pick up a big chunk of salary in exchange for better prospects. The finances really aren't the motivating factor here.
   15. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 04, 2008 at 08:17 PM (#3020908)
"Doesn't Wilson have a contract that's a fair bit over his true value? I realize it's about up, and maybe it's not totally onerous... but still."

A little over $7M guaranteed. So nothing crazy. And the team already has $10-15M to play with in the FA market, so they aren't desperate to cut salaries.
   16. JPWF13 Posted: December 04, 2008 at 08:36 PM (#3020937)
"Doesn't Wilson have a contract that's a fair bit over his true value? I realize it's about up, and maybe it's not totally onerous... but still."

A little over $7M guaranteed.


2007-2008:
Cnt Player OPS+ PA
+----+-----------------+----+-----+----+----+
1 Hanley Ramirez 146 1399
2 Carlos Guillen 119 1119
3 Derek Jeter 113 1382
4 Jose Reyes 111 1528
5 Jimmy Rollins 111 1403
6 Yunel Escobar 110 942
7 Cristian Guzman 109 804
8 J.J. Hardy 106 1267
9 Jhonny Peralta 104 1311
10 Edgar Renteria 104 1090
11 Michael Young 101 1400
12 Brendan Harris 100 1066
13 Troy Tulowitzki 100 1103
14 Miguel Tejada 99 1234
15 Jack Wilson 94 865
16 Stephen Drew 92 1282
17 Rafael Furcal 92 806
18 Orlando Cabrera 90 1431
19 Yuniesky Betancou 89 1149
20 David Eckstein 89 860
21 Jeff Keppinger 89 778
22 Jason Bartlett 87 1064
23 Khalil Greene 86 1082
24 Ryan Theriot 84 1258
25 Juan Uribe 75 916
26 Bobby Crosby 73 979
27 Julio Lugo 70 937
28 Cesar Izturis 64 791
29 Omar Vizquel 56 875
30 Tony Pena 47 771

When/if healthy he's a perfectly serviceable player, he's a good fielder and as a hitter, well there's 30 MLB teams, 30 starting SS jobs, he's about the median for starting SSs- you could do a lot worse.

Speaking of worse: here are the non-Pitchers, last 10 years, 750+PAs, OPS+ under 50:
Tony Pena
Donnie Sadler
   17. Jim (jimmuscomp) Posted: December 04, 2008 at 08:40 PM (#3020942)
"Isn't the answer obvious:

No more Jack Wilson."

That would be funnier if Jack Wilson weren't a) a decent starter, b) the team's best shortstop by a large margin, and c) putting no significant strain on the budget.


Maybe so, but Wilson isn't that great a player - and not worth $7 million IMO. I stand by the point - Wilson ain't great shakes and the Pirates aren't doing anything, so they might as well stock up on cheap talent and not waste money on a decent player when that decent player might be the difference between losing 96 games or losing 99 games.

The guy just isn't that good unless I'm missing something here...

[Edited for stupidity]
   18. RJ in TO Posted: December 04, 2008 at 08:42 PM (#3020943)
It seems to be the week for shortstop roulette on the Hot Stove,


I read this as weak shortstop roulette, and immediately thought that the writer was being a bit harsh.
   19. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: December 04, 2008 at 08:52 PM (#3020953)
Speaking of worse: here are the non-Pitchers, last 10 years, 750+PAs, OPS+ under 50:
Tony Pena
Donnie Sadler


Man, whatever team employed them must be stupid!!!!

Sadly, Mendy Lopez, Felix Martinez, Neifi Perez, Angel Berroa, David Howard, Onix Concepcion, Angel Salazar and Buddy Biancalana give those guys a run for their money for worst shortstop in franchise hsitory.
   20. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 04, 2008 at 09:01 PM (#3020966)
"Wilson ain't great shakes and the Pirates aren't doing anything, so they might as well stock up on cheap talent and not waste money on a decent player when that decent player might be the difference between losing 96 games or losing 99 games."

The problem is that the Pirates don't have any viable internal SS options. Bixler is terrible, Cruz is worse, and you have to go all the way down to A-ball before you find any prospects. Furthermore, the team already jacked up their scouting/PD investment significantly last year, by building a brand new Dominican academy, greatly increasing international spending, and signing numerous players to above-slot deals in the draft. If you take Jack's money off the payroll, there isn't going to be any good way to invest it in the future. It's either going to get plowed back into a different veteran FA (who probably is not as good for the team, given the gaping hole behind Jack at short), or it's going to sit in Nutting's wallet. If those are the choices, I'd rather keep Jack and win a few extra games, at least until a team is ready to give up actual talent in return.
   21. JPWF13 Posted: December 04, 2008 at 09:14 PM (#3020980)
Man, whatever team employed them must be stupid!!!!

Sadly


KC SS, more than 600 PAs:
Cnt Player OPS+ PA
+----+-----------------+----+-----+----+----+
1 Jay Bell 115 660
2 Kurt Stillwell 93 2022
3 Greg Gagne 83 1472
4 U L Washington 83 2746
5 Angel Berroa 78 2496
6 Freddie Patek 78 4867
7 Rey Sanchez 71 1489
8 Onix Concepcion 58 1130
9 Jackie Hernandez 57 811
10 David Howard 56 1586
11 Tony Pena 47 771
12 Neifi Perez 45 805
13 Angel Salazar 40 645
   22. The Buddy Biancalana Hit Counter Posted: December 04, 2008 at 09:27 PM (#3020990)
If UL Washington hadn't tried to switch hit he'd have been solo 3rd on that list easily.
   23. Kyle S at work Posted: December 04, 2008 at 10:01 PM (#3021014)
JPWF - how do you calculate OPS+ on the fly so quickly?
   24. alkeiper Posted: December 04, 2008 at 10:39 PM (#3021057)
Speaking of players who shouldn't switch hit, why does Lance Berkman bother? His OPS as a lefty is 200 points lower, and he hits in a ballpark remarkably better for right handed hitters.
   25. JPWF13 Posted: December 04, 2008 at 10:50 PM (#3021076)
JPWF - how do you calculate OPS+ on the fly so quickly?


BBREF Play Index
   26. Dan Posted: December 04, 2008 at 10:54 PM (#3021081)
Speaking of players who shouldn't switch hit, why does Lance Berkman bother? His OPS as a lefty is 200 points lower, and he hits in a ballpark remarkably better for right handed hitters.

You have his splits backwards. He's an .800 OPS hitter vs LHP hitting as a RHH, and a 1.000 OPS hitter as a lefty against RHP.
   27. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: December 04, 2008 at 10:58 PM (#3021091)
I'd much rather have Jack Wilson than Julio Lugo!

(I think I've begun to use that line too much...)
   28. Justin T., Director of Somethin Posted: December 05, 2008 at 01:23 AM (#3021199)
Isn't this the deal that BuccoBlog "broke the news on" and then Rosenthal even picked it up just to put it down? This has to be a case of a blind squirrel and an acorn.
   29. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: December 05, 2008 at 01:24 AM (#3021200)
This is also a deal that there were rumors about six months ago, maybe more than a year ago.
   30. Justin T., Director of Somethin Posted: December 05, 2008 at 01:29 AM (#3021207)
I'd forgotten about that, if I ever knew it. And the tone of that thread and Rosenthal's mention of it in an article made it seem as though it was the stupidest idea ever.

I am not defending Bucco Blog in any way, for the record.
   31. Jorge Luis Bourjos (Walewander) Posted: December 05, 2008 at 02:22 AM (#3021232)
There have been rumours about this deal since the 07 trading deadline.

I hope it is not true. I would much prefer Everett.

And the Tigers do have some other prospects (Perry, Larish, Iorg, Casey Crosby, Worth, Skelton, Wilkin Ramirez) though none of them are all that exciting.
   32. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: December 05, 2008 at 03:00 AM (#3021249)
Iorg

Dane or Garth?
   33. The District Attorney Posted: December 05, 2008 at 03:19 AM (#3021256)
Is Wilson really that much better than Ramon Santiago? Basically both good field/no hit guys. Santiago did hit really well last year in limited time. Maybe he figured something out? He walked a lot more, anyway. If you're also saving $7M for sure, I think I'd probably roll the dice on finding out.
   34. Howie Menckel Posted: December 05, 2008 at 03:53 AM (#3021268)
The Tigers and Jack Wilson's agent are both denying a report that the shortstop has been traded.
The Newark Star-Ledger reported that a deal sending Wilson to Detroit was done. "It is not accurate," Dombrowski said. "I can 100 percent tell you that." One MLB official told MLB.com that the two sides are talking, but that a deal is not yet close. Source: Hot Stove Blog Dec. 4 - 1:22 pm et
   35. Jorge Luis Bourjos (Walewander) Posted: December 05, 2008 at 04:19 AM (#3021279)
Garth's son Cale, actually.
   36. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 05, 2008 at 05:27 AM (#3021319)
"This is also a deal that there were rumors about six months ago, maybe more than a year ago."

Hell, it wasn't just rumors. The Tigers offered the Pirates Jair Jurrjens and a second player (supposedly Clevlen) and Littlefield replied that he wouldn't make a deal without Craig Monroe too, which killed it. Stone cold fact.
   37. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 05, 2008 at 05:31 AM (#3021323)
"Is Wilson really that much better than Ramon Santiago?"

Even after last season, Ramon Santiago is a career .238/.310/.325 hitter in almost a thousand ML AB, and a career .247/.314/.355 hitter in almost 1200 AAA AB. Jack Wilson may not be an offensive juggernaut, but yeah, if he hits his career average (.269/.312/.375) then he's probably a significant upgrade on Ramon Santiago.
   38. Danny Posted: December 05, 2008 at 05:45 AM (#3021336)
When/if healthy he's a perfectly serviceable player, he's a good fielder and as a hitter, well there's 30 MLB teams, 30 starting SS jobs, he's about the median for starting SSs- you could do a lot worse.

Looking at 2007-2008 puts him in the best possible light.

If you look at 3 years (2006-2008, minimum 900 PA), he comes in 21st out of 30 SS in OPS+.

If you look at 4 years (1300 PA), he's 23rd out of 30.

If you look at just 2008 (300 PA), he's 26th out of 30.

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