Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Sunday, September 23, 2018

Tim Anderson’s eventful day at the yard ends with shot at Joe West: ‘Everybody knows he’s terrible’

Talk about an eventful night at the ol’ ballpark for Tim Anderson.

It looked like it was going to be a day worth celebrating for Anderson, whose developmental progress reached a milestone during the third inning of Saturday’s Crosstown matchup with the Cubs. He hit his 20th home run of the season, becoming the first White Sox shortstop ever to have a season with at least 20 homers and at least 20 stolen bases.

A heck of a feat, one that should stand out when White Sox fans and observers spend the offseason discussing whether or not Anderson truly is this franchise’s shortstop of the future.

Joe West, meanwhile, simply chose to sit back and plan how he would retaliate this time, the way he has so many times before….

QLE Posted: September 23, 2018 at 12:01 PM | 25 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: joe west, tim anderson, umpiring, white sox

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: September 23, 2018 at 05:57 PM (#5750093)
A heck of a feat, one that should stand out when White Sox fans and observers spend the offseason discussing whether or not Anderson truly is this franchise’s shortstop of the future.
This is sort of a weird question. Anderson is an averagish SS, and maybe he takes a tiny step forward at the plate (240/280/410 becoming 260/300/430) and he becomes a slightly above averagish player for a few years. He's under contract for four more years, plus some options, and strikes me as a JJ Hardy type -- good fielder, low OBP, low wattage slugger, who's tremendously useful through about age 30. He can help the Sox win, but he's not going to be a star or be the SS in 2028. You trade him if you can get a good package or if there is a magic prospect in Charlotte. But otherwise he's the SS through 2022, and maybe through the two option years, and then you let him go walk the earth.

The White Sox really have a lot of low OBP, low-to-medium wattage sluggers, don't they?
   2. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: September 23, 2018 at 06:07 PM (#5750095)
Joe West may be a terrible umpire, but there's no way Javvy's slide was illegal, and West's call was upheld by the replay umps. Anderson was way out of line and deserved his ejection.

edit: If this slide is illegal, they might as well stop playing the game.
   3. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: September 23, 2018 at 06:45 PM (#5750109)
I think Anderson has a case, Baez seemed to reach out with his right hand for Anderson’s leg. Beyond that he didn’t really slide to the base, he slid past it and was able to get it with his hand.

I agree with you, I don’t think that slide should be illegal. I don’t think Baez got him with the hand, at least not enough to make it meaningful, his slide is close enough to the bag that it would’ve been ridiculous to rule him out.

With all that said even if you come down on it being illegal, I don’t think Anderson should be mouthing off too much about it. It’s not some glaringly bad call that warrants those comments.
   4. SoSH U at work Posted: September 23, 2018 at 06:54 PM (#5750113)

I agree with you, I don’t think that slide should be illegal.


It wasn't as the rules exist now (assuming he didn't make contact with the right hand, which it looks like he didn't), but I think it should be.

Javier Baez was out by four feet. It's ridiculous that a baserunner who has already been retired can take any avoidable action to interfere with a defensive player's efforts to complete a play. The sport doesn't really let baserunners interfere with defenders in general, except in this one instance when they have the least legitimate claim to rightfully doing so.

Players in that situation should be required to slide straight into the base, without exception. This can you reach it with your hand silliness should not be allowed.
   5. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: September 23, 2018 at 07:05 PM (#5750114)
I watched it a few times and essentially came here to post similar things as 3 and 4. Under the current rules the slide is legal, but he does obviously reach out the hand. Anderson has no case with the umps, however if it were me, after I'd thrown the ball I would leaned over towards Baez and whispered in his ear, "next time you put your hand there I'm going to f*cking step on it, that's bush league stuff" or something to that effect.
   6. PreservedFish Posted: September 23, 2018 at 09:23 PM (#5750222)
SoSH U - how would you rewrite the rule?
   7. Bote Man Posted: September 23, 2018 at 09:24 PM (#5750223)
#Actually, I've heard reports that players like Joe West's strike zone, but it's his oversized ego that he stores in his oversized quintuple chins that they resent.
   8. SoSH U at work Posted: September 23, 2018 at 09:47 PM (#5750245)
SoSH U - how would you rewrite the rule?


Players must slide directly at the bag on all force plays, unless making an attempt to avoid a tag.

If you look at another play, it highlights the folly of the takeout slide.

In Game 5 of the 2015 World Series, had a slightly faster version of Salvy Perez taken an inside route to first and clipped Lucas Duda's leg as Duda attempted to throw out Hosmer at home, no one would have accepted that play as acceptable.

There's simply no reason to allow players who have already been retired on a play to veer from a direct route to the base to interfere with a defender. Obviously, if it's a bang-bang play at second, some contact may be unavoidable. But it should only happen because the player was trying to beat the throw to the bag, which dictates a direct route (no one would make Javy's slide if he were seriously interested in getting to the base as quickly as possible).


#Actually, I've heard reports that players like Joe West's strike zone, but it's his oversized ego that he stores in his oversized quintuple chins that they resent.


Yes, West is regularly rated by the players as one of the best when it comes to balls and strikes. He also rates as one of the worst umpires in the game based entirely on his combative approach.

   9. Morty Causa Posted: September 24, 2018 at 01:17 AM (#5750354)
Well, if MLB gets serious about amping up the pace of the game by making pitchers and batters delay less, a Joe West combative approach may become the premium necessary to enforce that.
   10. Leroy Kincaid Posted: September 24, 2018 at 06:15 AM (#5750380)
If they're going to allow the runners to slide at the fielders then the throws should be allowed to hit them as long as the trajectory is toward another base.
   11. Spahn Insane Posted: September 24, 2018 at 09:40 AM (#5750438)
I think Anderson has a case, Baez seemed to reach out with his right hand for Anderson’s leg.

By the time Baez did that, Anderson was already in the process of completing the play (Baez's hand was past Anderson's leg). One might posit that Baez had nefarious intent in reaching with his hand, but it didn't interfere with the play. (Rereading your entire comment, I don't think we really disagree on much, other than the "Anderson has a case" part.)
   12. Spahn Insane Posted: September 24, 2018 at 09:47 AM (#5750445)
This can you reach it with your hand silliness should not be allowed.

Except Baez's slide path took both his left knee and his right foot to the bag.
   13. SoSH U at work Posted: September 24, 2018 at 11:17 AM (#5750546)
Except Baez's slide path took both his left knee and his right foot to the bag.


That slide can not possibly be described as sliding directly to the base.
   14. PreservedFish Posted: September 24, 2018 at 11:32 AM (#5750558)
The slide was both definitely not directly to the base, and really close to being directly to the base. You write a new rule, you get a new gray area.
   15. SoSH U at work Posted: September 24, 2018 at 11:40 AM (#5750565)

The slide was both definitely not directly to the base, and really close to being directly to the base. You write a new rule, you get a new gray area.


He appeared to turn a little once he hit the ground, which is probably something only Baez is capable of doing.

It's hard to tell for certain from the video, but I think his lead foot makes contact with the back of the base, which definitely isn't what you'd do if you were trying to reach the base as quickly as possible.

But yes, I can see how this slide would still slide in under a revised, tougher rule.


   16. dlf Posted: September 24, 2018 at 11:49 AM (#5750571)
This is behind the paywall at The Athletic but it was written by Dale Murphy and I think bears some attention:

This specific incident [ed. the Laz Diaz / Bryce Harper broohaha] aside, the player-umpire relationship has changed over the last two decades or so – and not for the better. When I played, the relationship was more or less respectful. Today, it seems more adversarial. Were there arguments between players and umpires in my day? Absolutely. Were there ejections? You betcha. ... In recent years, though, the dynamic between players and umpires, and managers and umpires, has become more aggressive – on all sides.

...

What I am saying is that umpires shouldn’t be so quick to fire back when an argument starts – for many reasons. In the player-umpire relationship, the umpire has all the power. Players can’t call strike three. Players can’t eject anyone. What the ump says, goes. For that reason, I believe umpires should a) let players have their say and b) listen.

Too many umpires are unwilling to admit that they were wrong – or at least acknowledge the possibility that they were wrong. They think it’s a sign of weakness.

It isn’t. Believe it or not, saying, “I think I got it right, but I’ll look at it later,” can go a long way. Players know umpires can’t un-call strike three, but acknowledging the possibility of imperfection can tame a lot of tempers.

...

But it seems umpires are more likely to be aggressive and, when pressed, less likely to back down. They’re more likely to assert themselves and force the issue.

...


Well, admitted or not, there is a problem. There’s a reason why the “#umpshow” hashtag exists. Fans can tell when umpires are trying to steal the spotlight. It’s not a good look for umpires, or for the game.

In the end, players and umpires both need to do a better job of, well, getting along. If a player is upset about a call, an umpire should let him have his say. If the player goes too far, he should get a warning. If the player ignores the warning or makes it personal, he should be ejected. Conversely, if a player says or does something egregious – warning or not – he should be tossed. He doesn’t need the umpire to confront him – and his manager – multiple times and have a one-sided shouting match. Eject the player, or don’t.

Baseball needs umpires to keep the peace, not disturb it.


   17. PreservedFish Posted: September 24, 2018 at 11:51 AM (#5750573)
Personally I think this would have been a nice opportunity for the rarely used "run through second base" strategy, but in matters of ghoulishly inspiring the defense to make errors, I'll defer to El Mago.
   18. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: September 24, 2018 at 01:05 PM (#5750629)
In recent years, though, the dynamic between players and umpires, and managers and umpires, has become more aggressive – on all sides.

Apparently Earl Weaver, Billy Martin, Lou Piniella, and Lloyd McClendon were all unavailable for comment.
   19. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: September 24, 2018 at 01:10 PM (#5750634)
I watched the highlights via https://baseball.theater/ last night, and my first reaction was "I'm a little surprised Baez wasn't called for an illegal slide."
   20. winnipegwhip Posted: September 24, 2018 at 01:18 PM (#5750644)
This was less of a problem before instant replay and the "neighborhood rule" existed. Now players must hug the base a little bit longer and are more susceptible to contact and/or injury.
   21. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: September 24, 2018 at 01:29 PM (#5750661)
Murphy's opinion certainly deserves a lot more weight than mine but I think his viewpoint is 180 degrees from what I see. Go back to the 70s and 80s and into the 90s and I think there was a LOT more aggression on the part of the umps.
   22. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: September 24, 2018 at 01:37 PM (#5750666)
This is sort of a weird question. Anderson is an averagish SS, and maybe he takes a tiny step forward at the plate (240/280/410 becoming 260/300/430) and he becomes a slightly above averagish player for a few years. He's under contract for four more years, plus some options, and strikes me as a JJ Hardy type -- good fielder, low OBP, low wattage slugger, who's tremendously useful through about age 30. He can help the Sox win, but he's not going to be a star or be the SS in 2028. You trade him if you can get a good package or if there is a magic prospect in Charlotte. But otherwise he's the SS through 2022, and maybe through the two option years, and then you let him go walk the earth.

The White Sox really have a lot of low OBP, low-to-medium wattage sluggers, don't they?


They do. TA has had a solid year. He's like a 2 WAR, maybe 3 WAR SS entering his prime. Useful player. Unlikely to ever be a star. He's a lot like the previous solid but not a star SS on the South Side -- Alexei Ramirez. If TA has Ramirez's career I think most Sox fans would be quite happy.
   23. Spahn Insane Posted: September 24, 2018 at 03:26 PM (#5750788)
That slide can not possibly be described as sliding directly to the base.

This is only true if by "sliding directly to the base" you mean "aiming for the dead center of the front edge of the bag."
   24. SoSH U at work Posted: September 24, 2018 at 04:47 PM (#5750860)
This is only true if by "sliding directly to the base" you mean "aiming for the dead center of the front edge of the bag."


No, any part of the front edge of the bag would have worked. Alas, Javy didn't do that. He made contact with his lead foot at the back of the bag, which is obvious if you slow down the first angle in the video Misirlou linked above.

And if you make contact with the back of the bag with your foot on a force play, you weren't trying to reach the bag as quickly as possible.

   25. PreservedFish Posted: September 24, 2018 at 05:00 PM (#5750871)
Or you messed up.

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

News

All News | Prime News

Old-School Newsstand


BBTF Partner

Dynasty League Baseball

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
greenback slays lewks
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogTHE 2018 WORLD SERIES OMNICHATTER!
(265 - 11:22pm, Oct 23)
Last: Chip

NewsblogOT: Soccer Thread (2018-19 season begins!)
(1025 - 11:18pm, Oct 23)
Last: Richard

NewsblogOT - NBA Thread (2018-19 season kickoff edition)
(967 - 11:15pm, Oct 23)
Last: puck

NewsblogThe 2018 Dodgers Are the Most Positionally Fluid Team of All Time - The Ringer
(5 - 11:01pm, Oct 23)
Last: Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer

NewsblogShould Baseball Pitchers Choose Their Pitches at Random? | Immodest proposal | OZY
(11 - 10:31pm, Oct 23)
Last: PreservedFish

NewsblogOTP 2018 OCT 22: Meet the New York Teenager Who Created the 'Mets Are a Good Team' Super PAC
(693 - 9:56pm, Oct 23)
Last: Greg K

Hall of Merit2019 Hall of Merit Ballot Discussion
(176 - 9:48pm, Oct 23)
Last: Dr. Chaleeko

NewsblogWorld Series preview: Dodgers vs. Red Sox is more than 100 years in the making
(8 - 8:11pm, Oct 23)
Last: Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer

NewsblogPrimer Dugout (and link of the day) 10-23-2018
(25 - 8:08pm, Oct 23)
Last: villageidiom

NewsblogCatch-All Pop Culture Extravaganza (October 2018)
(576 - 7:37pm, Oct 23)
Last: BDC

Sox TherapyLet’s Get World Serious!
(22 - 6:57pm, Oct 23)
Last: L. M. Gumby

NewsblogRangers don’t plan to make qualifying offer to Adrián Beltré
(32 - 6:14pm, Oct 23)
Last: Benji Gil Gamesh VII - The Opt-Out Awakens

NewsblogMLB -- Manny Machado, Yasiel Puig embrace their villain roles all the way to the World Series
(89 - 6:11pm, Oct 23)
Last: ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick

NewsblogEscobar, D-backs agree to three-year deal
(4 - 6:09pm, Oct 23)
Last: Walt Davis

NewsblogLA wins NL, setting up titanic WS with Red Sox | MLB.com
(23 - 5:00pm, Oct 23)
Last: Astroenteritis

Page rendered in 0.3193 seconds
46 querie(s) executed