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Thursday, October 25, 2012

Tim Bogar responds to Bobby Valentine’s criticism of Boston Red Sox coaches - ESPN Boston

“I’m not upset about him or anything he says, but what bothers me is the perception of me and the other coaches is completely wrong,” he told ESPNBoston.com. “That bothers me because of what the coaches went through this year and what we dealt with. I did exactly what (general manager) Ben (Cherington) asked me to do. I’m not saying I did everything perfect because I didn’t and I know that.”

Jim Furtado Posted: October 25, 2012 at 09:45 AM | 27 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: bobby valentine, red sox, tim bogar

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   1. ColonelTom Posted: October 25, 2012 at 11:27 AM (#4282931)
I'm not a Bobby V fan, but when the GM bypasses the manager and tells the rest of the coaching staff to report directly to the GM, that's a recipe for ... well, exactly what happened in Boston this year.

   2. pep21 Posted: October 25, 2012 at 11:33 AM (#4282937)
I'm not a Bobby V fan, but when the GM bypasses the manager and tells the rest of the coaching staff to report directly to the GM, that's a recipe for ... well, exactly what happened in Boston this year.

Exactly, Valentine is the lowest, most vile manager ever by the fact he continues to throw everyone under the bus, Youk, Aviles, Papi, coaches and others. I am waiting for him to take a shot at Pedroia, Ellsbury, Salty all of the guys who played hard all of time. But having said all of that, the GM should have allowed this clown to bring in his own staff. The very fact that they were reporting the GM underminds everything Valentine does or says to the club. Clearly Valentine was in over his head and did not realize the beast Redsox Nation is but all of the fault goes to Luccino for not letting the GM hire who he wanted in the first place.



   3. JJ1986 Posted: October 25, 2012 at 11:40 AM (#4282947)
Even in this puff piece written to make him look good, Bogar comes off looking poorly. "the only bad communication was between Bobby and everyone. The rest of the communication was great." He's the bench coach. His whole job is to communicate with the manager.
   4. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: October 25, 2012 at 11:41 AM (#4282948)
I'm not a Bobby V fan, but when the GM bypasses the manager and tells the rest of the coaching staff to report directly to the GM, that's a recipe for ... well, exactly what happened in Boston this year.

It's an absurd structure, warranting (though not mandating) the firing of Cherington.
   5. TDF, situational idiot Posted: October 25, 2012 at 12:15 PM (#4282982)
Either I missed another article/thread, or you guys are reading things into this article that aren't there.

1. Bogar doesn't say he's reporting to the GM, or bypassing Valentine; he says only he's doing his job as it's been relayed to him: "I did exactly what (general manager) Ben (Cherington) asked me to do." And if there's a problem in the lines of communication (not type, but line) then it appears Valentine is completely at fault. FTA:
"The coaching staff was prepared to do everything that we were supposed to do to help Bobby succeed," Bogar said, "but not once did he portray what he wanted us to do to help him and eventually he shut some of us out completely."

2. "the only bad communication was between Bobby and everyone. He's the bench coach. His whole job is to communicate with the manager." FTA: (Aviles talking)
"During the tough times, Bogey was definitely the bridge. He was able to talk to Bobby, and Bobby was able to talk to him, and vice-versa with the players. Bogey was a great bridge communicating to both sides because he understood Bobby the best. Bobby was here only one year, so nobody really understood him or knew him. No one had that long relationship, and it was tough for Bobby, but Bogey knew him from his playing days. And Bogey knew the players and was able to communicate and be the bridge to have things run a little bit smoother than normal."
We know what kind of manager Valentine is. To me, this whole article reads: Players would talk to Bogar, Bogar would relay communication to Valentine (what JJ1986 claims is "his whole job"), Valentine screams at everyone.

From everything I've read (admittedly, I'm not as close to the situation as Sox fans, especially Boston-area Sox fans, are), Valentine is a classic bully boss: He screams at or demeans everyone, acts like he's the only one who knows how anything works, won't take any advise from any of his workers, then when things go south he blames those same underlings. I've worked for guys like this, and it's a pleasure to see them leave.
   6. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: October 25, 2012 at 12:30 PM (#4282993)
"The coaching staff was prepared to do everything that we were supposed to do to help Bobby succeed," Bogar said, "but not once did he portray what he wanted us to do to help him and eventually he shut some of us out completely."

That in itself is a disloyal comment, inappropriately revelatory of things that should be kept in-house. Being publicly critical of your boss isn't really the sharpest idea.

He shut you out because he didn't trust you -- that's probably also something you don't want to put into the public domain.
   7. SoSH U at work Posted: October 25, 2012 at 12:42 PM (#4283001)
That in itself is a disloyal comment, inappropriately revelatory of things that should be kept in-house. Being publicly critical of your boss isn't really the sharpest idea.


At this point, I don't think being critical of Bobby V is going to damage your reptuation around the sport, other than with the tiny nitwit brigade that somehow think the genius was done wrong in Boston.
   8. Bob Tufts Posted: October 25, 2012 at 12:45 PM (#4283004)
The coaches were talking to the GM and players were talking to the owner(s). All of Valentine's "employees" were going over his head. And everyone (Valentine included) talks off the record to the reporters to better position themselves to not be the fall guy.

Sad. Truly sad.

All managers want to be the smartest guy in the room (see TLR, Showalter), but it only works when you are winning, otherwise you become Capatain Queeg (even if the decisions you make are technically correct).
   9. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: October 25, 2012 at 01:11 PM (#4283036)

From everything I've read (admittedly, I'm not as close to the situation as Sox fans, especially Boston-area Sox fans, are), Valentine is a classic bully boss: He screams at or demeans everyone, acts like he's the only one who knows how anything works, won't take any advise from any of his workers, then when things go south he blames those same underlings. I've worked for guys like this, and it's a pleasure to see them leave.


I don't think Valentine is necessarily a bully boss so much as he is really really bad at communicating. Compare it to the TJ Simers arguments we have 'round here from time to time. I think Valentine assumes people "get him" and when they don't he blames them. At some point when everyone else has a problem with you, it's highly likely that you are the problem.

It seems to me that very early on the trust between Valentine and the coaching staff completely broke down and a lot of bad things resulted. I think the majority of the blame for that goes to Valentine but I don't think it's a coincidence that the Sox seem ready to let the entire coaching staff walk away too. From what I read this year (and this piece doesn't help) I wouldn't touch Bogar with a ten foot pole. I think the best thing you can say about him is that he wasn't part of the problem but he damned sure didn't seem to be part of the solution either.
   10. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: October 25, 2012 at 01:14 PM (#4283041)
SBB, if I ask you nicely will you please stop blatantly trolling all the Red Sox threads?
   11. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: October 25, 2012 at 01:17 PM (#4283044)
At this point, I don't think being critical of Bobby V is going to damage your reptuation around the sport, other than with the tiny nitwit brigade that somehow think the genius was done wrong in Boston.


Sure it is; that's why Bogar's talking to the press to begin with. See TFA, wherein Bogar says exactly that: "Now, whenever I get called for another job, the first thing they ask is, 'So what's the deal with what happened between you and Bobby and why would he say you undermined him?' So I have to explain myself."
   12. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: October 25, 2012 at 01:19 PM (#4283048)
The dude has been fired. He's not anybody's boss anymore.
   13. Nasty Nate Posted: October 25, 2012 at 01:22 PM (#4283054)
Sure it is; that's why Bogar's talking to the press to begin with. See TFA, wherein Bogar says exactly that: "Now, whenever I get called for another job, the first thing they ask is, 'So what's the deal with what happened between you and Bobby and why would he say you undermined him?' So I have to explain myself."


That indicates that Bobby V talking about Bogar was damaging his reputation - not Bogar publicly replying to Bobby V that is doing it.
   14. Swedish Chef Posted: October 25, 2012 at 01:34 PM (#4283076)
I don't see why anyone would want to remind the world that they were involved with the 2012 Red Sox. The best strategy is to just keep quiet and if hunted down claim that the Red Sox coach must have been some other guy with the same name and that you spent the last season on a sabbatical bear-wrestling in Yukon.
   15. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: October 25, 2012 at 01:37 PM (#4283081)
At this point, I don't think being critical of Bobby V is going to damage your reptuation around the sport, other than with the tiny nitwit brigade that somehow think the genius was done wrong in Boston.


I disagree; would you want someone with sharp knives and the demonstrated ability to use them as well as familiarity and comfort with leaking unflattering information as your #2? What it he doesn't like one of your decisions and nasty second-guessing comes out in the press later? Do you suspect this guy?
   16. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 25, 2012 at 01:45 PM (#4283087)

At this point, I don't think being critical of Bobby V is going to damage your reptuation around the sport, other than with the tiny nitwit brigade that somehow think the genius was done wrong in Boston.


It never helps you to air private dirt about former employers or colleagues in public. Even if you were 100% in the right, future employers and colleagues will trust you less, and worry you'll do the same to them.

Edit: coke to TVerik
   17. SoSH U at work Posted: October 25, 2012 at 01:50 PM (#4283094)
I disagree; would you want someone with sharp knives and the demonstrated ability to use them as well as familiarity and comfort with leaking unflattering information as your #2? What it he doesn't like one of your decisions and nasty second-guessing comes out in the press later? Do you suspect this guy?


It never helps you to air private dirt about former employers or colleagues in public. Even if you were 100% in the right, future employers and colleagues will trust you less, and worry you'll do the same to them.

Obviously it's never a good idea. But the point I'm making is that I don't think Bogar is really doing himself any damage here, because I suspect Bobby Valentine's name is mud throughout baseball circles as a result of his behavior over the past 12 months. Moreover, Bogar wasn't launching some pre-emptive strike, but merely responding to Bobby's latest bit of dung hurling.

None of this changes the fact that just about every damn member of the Sox coaching staff should be ashamed of how the 2012 season played out. That's what Bogar should be worried about in terms of his future, not because he defended himself against a laughingstock.
   18. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 25, 2012 at 01:53 PM (#4283099)
Obviously it's never a good idea. But the point I'm making is that I don't think Bogar is really doing himself any damager here, because I suspect Bobby Valentine's name is mud throughout baseball circles as a result of his behavior over the past 12 months. Moreover, Bogar wasn't launching some pre-emptive strike, but merely responding to Bobby's latest bit of dung hurling.

None of this changes the fact that just about every damn member of the Sox coaching staff should be ashamed of how the 2012 season played out. That's what Bogar should be worried about in terms of his future, not because he defended himself against a laughingstock.


I would agree that 90% of the damage to Bogar comes from being on the 2012 staff, vs. 10% for not issuing a more bland statement.
   19. TDF, situational idiot Posted: October 25, 2012 at 02:22 PM (#4283118)
I disagree; would you want someone with sharp knives and the demonstrated ability to use them as well as familiarity and comfort with leaking unflattering information as your #2?

I don't think this is a situation like that, though. Valentine is using a "scorched earth" tactic that would make Sherman proud; if someone's to blame for the way this is playing out in the press, it sure isn't the coaches.

I dunno. I see Bogar defending himself against Valentine, and I see two players (one of whom is as close to being the face of the franchise as they have) backing Bogar up.

Again - we know what kind of guy Valentine is; I'm surprised he hasn't thrown the groundskeeper under the bus yet (maybe that's next week's interview...).
   20. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: October 25, 2012 at 02:33 PM (#4283130)
Again - we know what kind of guy Valentine is; I'm surprised he hasn't thrown the groundskeeper under the bus yet (maybe that's next week's interview...).


We all know he won't say a damn thing about the groundskeeper. That's the guy who knows where all the bodies are buried.
   21. Mayor Blomberg Posted: October 25, 2012 at 02:39 PM (#4283143)
Yeah, he was a better tactician once and took the Mets to the WS, but on the personnel-management side, how different is this year from the mess he achieved in NY?
   22. Curse of the Andino Posted: October 25, 2012 at 03:03 PM (#4283168)
So, was there like a Philadelphia Experiment V 2.0 that somehow caused Baltimore and Boston to shift dimensions? 'Cuz, err, Boston is the O's of 98-99. Up next? Melky in left, I guess.
   23. Smiling Joe Hesketh Posted: October 25, 2012 at 03:13 PM (#4283181)
I dunno. I see Bogar defending himself against Valentine, and I see two players (one of whom is as close to being the face of the franchise as they have) backing Bogar up.


Bingo.

We all know what a shiitheel Valentine is. Valentine has already said a ton of things attacking his former players and coaches. If I'm Bogar and I want my credibility to remain intact, then responding to such attacks in a concise, clear form is the very first thing I do, because I damn well know people are going to believe me over Bobby ####### Valentine.

Bobby Valentine is pretty clearly a terrible human being. I wouldn't let such a horrible person shape public view of me through his public statements, you're ####### right I'd fire back immediately.
   24. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: October 25, 2012 at 06:27 PM (#4283406)
I think as a new direction they should not hire a manager and fire the existing coaching staff. Then they should bring back the medical team from a couple of years ago and the chain of command should go Henry-medical team-players. So when 50% of the team is on the DL by May 7th, they'll have all their reasons for being sh*t in 2013.

Oh and Mr. Henry, your Liverpool squad is also wallowing in mediocrity.
   25. Walt Davis Posted: October 26, 2012 at 03:17 AM (#4283973)
Just cuz it's been going through my head all day after seeing the headline and the only way to get a song out of your head is to put it in somebody else's ...

Don't Bogar the objective pipe
   26. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: October 26, 2012 at 03:46 AM (#4283975)
Don't Bogar the objective pipe

He was good with Vanilla Fudge, but then he went too far.
   27. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: October 26, 2012 at 06:45 AM (#4283982)
But Everton is on pace for Europe!!! Suck it Henry.

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