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Saturday, July 30, 2011

Tim Lincecum, Matt Cain slighted by Phils’ Manuel

If Alvin Cash were still around…I’m sure we’d have a The Philly Freak-ish follow-up.

In an out-of-left-field comment following Thursday night’s 4-1 Giants victory, Manuel put down winning pitcher Tim Lincecum (and Matt Cain), correcting a reporter who suggested the Phillies struggled against these “great” pitchers, who together held them to one unearned run in 13 innings in the series.

“They’re good pitchers. You say they’re great pitchers? To me, I don’t know how great they are,” Manuel said, as quoted in the Philadelphia Daily News.

“As they move on into their careers, the longevity part, I think that’s when the greatness might come. ... When you say somebody is great, I look up there and tonight I saw a 90 (mph) fastball, 92 at best (from Lincecum). I saw a good changeup. I saw a breaking ball and I saw a cutter ... but at the same time, we can beat that. I’ve seen us beat that.”

Lincecum seemed floored by the quotes, especially the velocity part, saying, “They had a guy named Moyer right? (Referring to lefty junkballer Jamie Moyer.) Talk to him about that one.”

...Lincecum further surmised that Manuel was frustrated the Phillies lost their first series in more than a month.

“They’re not used to it,” he said. “It might have something to do with what happened in the NLCS, too. You’ll have to ask him. Cainer threw up the same numbers I threw. He doesn’t have to hump it up. With his stuff, he still dominates teams. I don’t know if miles per hour have to do with domination.”

 

Repoz Posted: July 30, 2011 at 12:32 PM | 31 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: giants, phillies

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   1. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: July 30, 2011 at 02:53 PM (#3888968)
Manuel later added "And who is Karim Garcia?"

EDIT: Seriously what a pointless response. Manuel sounds like a sportswriter responding to a question about Lincecum and Cain's Hall chances.
   2. Rowland Office Supplies Posted: July 30, 2011 at 02:55 PM (#3888971)
Team Lincecum!
   3. Tricky Dick Posted: July 30, 2011 at 03:13 PM (#3888973)
Maybe Manuel should have kept his mouth shut to avoid hurting anyone's feelings. But, truthfully, that comment doesn't seem unreasonable. I can't fault someone who says they can't differentiate a good career from a great career until the career is over. Is it semantics? Maybe, but it's not an unreasonable view. I also understand why a manager wants to avoid giving all the credit to the opposing pitchers when his hitters are slumping. You don't want your hitters to have the mindset that they can't hit the best pitchers.
   4. tshipman Posted: July 30, 2011 at 03:29 PM (#3888979)
Maybe Manuel should have kept his mouth shut to avoid hurting anyone's feelings. But, truthfully, that comment doesn't seem unreasonable. I can't fault someone who says they can't differentiate a good career from a great career until the career is over.


Lincecum has won back to back Cy Youngs. By any historical standard, that's a great pitcher.
   5. my ignorance is just as good as your STEAGLES Posted: July 30, 2011 at 03:34 PM (#3888982)
“They’re good pitchers. You say they’re great pitchers? To me, I don’t know how great they are,” Manuel said, as quoted in the Philadelphia Daily News.
When you say somebody is great, I look up there and tonight I saw a 90 (mph) fastball, 92 at best (from Lincecum). I saw a good changeup. I saw a breaking ball and I saw a cutter ... but at the same time, we can beat that. I’ve seen us beat that.”



it should be pointed out that charlie manuel is a pretty big professional wrestling fan.


also, that he's right. cain isn't great, and lincecum is definitely touchable when he's topping out at 92.
   6. Benji Posted: July 30, 2011 at 03:36 PM (#3888984)
Charlie is just grumpy that they couldn't dump Domonic Browm on anybody.
   7. Shibal Posted: July 30, 2011 at 03:56 PM (#3888991)
Charlie sees two or three pitchers just as good as those guys every day. Lincecum and Cain aren't doing anything special compared to Halliday, Lee, and Hamels.
   8. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: July 30, 2011 at 04:01 PM (#3888996)
Gretchen Benji, stop trying to make "Domonic Brown sucks" happen! It's not going to happen!
   9. Bhaakon Posted: July 30, 2011 at 04:03 PM (#3888997)
also, that he's right. cain isn't great, and lincecum is definitely touchable when he's topping out at 92.


If you're going to base your argument around velocity, at least pick on someone who doesn't have more of it than Halladay. Just saying.
   10. shoewizard Posted: July 30, 2011 at 04:13 PM (#3889000)
Manuel is right. Lincecum has been very good but not great the last two years.

Here is an interesting list

Play Index Comps

RHP since 1961 with similar IP through age 27 with at least a 125 ERA+
   11. Non-Youkilidian Geometry Posted: July 30, 2011 at 04:34 PM (#3889005)
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
   12. Into the Void Posted: July 30, 2011 at 04:35 PM (#3889006)
Isn't saying they are merely 'good' more insulting to his hitters? He could have said "yeah, we got beat by some great pitchers out there, sometimes you just gotta tip your hat..." Instead he's basically saying his team can't even hit 'good' pitching.
   13. Mash Wilson Posted: July 30, 2011 at 04:38 PM (#3889011)
Well, yeah, but Jose Lima shut out the Cardinals in the playoffs once.
   14. Sam M. Posted: July 30, 2011 at 04:52 PM (#3889023)
This is good stuff. A real, good-old fashioned rivalry is clearly brewing here. The whole narrative is building: Phillies are the huge favorites last year, going for a repeat and then they get shocked by the Giants. Then the Giants acquire Beltran -- just as the two teams are playing each other (thank you schedule-makers), and then the Phillies make a move to respond (Pence). Now Manuel starts some talk, and the Giants respond.

Perfect. Everything you need for a build-up to an NLCS re-match.

As for Manuel's comments, they're pretty jerkish. Good for him. Condensed version: "You ain't nuthin'." What's wrong with that? Baseball thrives on filling up column inches with personality and back-and-forth, and good for Lincecum for saying (condensed verson), "Our nuthin' beat your asses."

It's supposed to be entertaining. This is entertaining.
   15. my ignorance is just as good as your STEAGLES Posted: July 30, 2011 at 05:09 PM (#3889031)
This is good stuff. A real, good-old fashioned rivalry is clearly brewing here. The whole narrative is building: Phillies are the huge favorites last year, going for a repeat and then they get shocked by the Giants. Then the Giants acquire Beltran -- just as the two teams are playing each other (thank you schedule-makers), and then the Phillies make a move to respond (Pence). Now Manuel starts some talk, and the Giants respond.
the two teams also play again next thursday-sunday.
   16. Mayor Blomberg Posted: July 30, 2011 at 05:19 PM (#3889035)
I've got no issues with what Manuel said because he defined how he'd apply greatness -- requires longevity. Was Doc Gooden a great pitcher, or a pitcher who had some great years?

That said, I thought Lincecum's response won the round handily.
   17. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: July 30, 2011 at 05:33 PM (#3889039)
also, that he's right. cain isn't great, and lincecum is definitely touchable when he's topping out at 92.


But Lincecum is more right because the winners dictate history, and the phillies were the losers.
   18. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: July 30, 2011 at 05:52 PM (#3889046)
Was Doc Gooden a great pitcher, or a pitcher who had some great years?


I dunno, but people had the damnedest time scoring on him in 1985. Manuel's being a butt-face, probably because his team lost.
   19. Mash Wilson Posted: July 30, 2011 at 05:53 PM (#3889047)
Were you there in 1985? Doc Gooden was not a great pitcher. That would have been insulting to Doc Gooden. Doc Gooden was a god among us.
   20. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 30, 2011 at 07:01 PM (#3889065)
In an out-of-left-field comment...


Anyone else imagine Manuel running in from left field to say this to a bunch of reporters, then dashing off again?
   21. Srul Itza Posted: July 30, 2011 at 07:03 PM (#3889066)
Summary:

Manuel: You ain't all that.
Lincecum: Scoreboard, bee-yatch.
   22. Alex Vila Posted: July 30, 2011 at 07:19 PM (#3889074)
"I got news for you Mr. Manuel, you haven't heard the last of me. You may think I'm #### now, but someday you're gonna be sorry you dissed me. I'm gonna pitch somewhere else and every time that I pitch against you I'm gonna stick it up your ######' ass!"

What Timmah's response should have been.
   23. Floyd Thursby Posted: July 30, 2011 at 07:35 PM (#3889078)
also, that he's right. cain isn't great, and lincecum is definitely touchable when he's topping out at 92.


He won a Cy Young with an average fastball of 92.

http://www.fangraphs.com/pitchfx.aspx?playerid=5705&position=P
   24. bumpis hound Posted: July 30, 2011 at 08:03 PM (#3889086)
[iHe won a Cy Young with an average fastball of 92.]

So did Maddux.
   25. Mayor Blomberg Posted: July 30, 2011 at 08:29 PM (#3889095)
Were you there in 1985? Doc Gooden was not a great pitcher. That would have been insulting to Doc Gooden. Doc Gooden was a god among us.


Yup, and in his age 19-22 years (Lincecum was 23 @ call-up) he ran a 146 ERA+ (Timmeh's now at 139), yet nobody's arguing for him to be in the next hall up from the HoVG.
   26. Walt Davis Posted: July 30, 2011 at 09:28 PM (#3889115)
Here is an interesting list

It's easy to forget how good Matt Morris was.
   27. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: July 30, 2011 at 10:53 PM (#3889157)
Yup, and in his age 19-22 years (Lincecum was 23 @ call-up) he ran a 146 ERA+ (Timmeh's now at 139), yet nobody's arguing for him to be in the next hall up from the HoVG.


So Manuel won't consider anyone great until they've already passed their greatness? Would be be singing a different tune if he were facing Nolan Ryan--at 64 and with heart trouble?
   28. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: July 30, 2011 at 11:13 PM (#3889171)
Did Manuel ever say Moyer was "great"? Huh, pothead? Huh?
   29. Eddie Gaedel Posted: July 30, 2011 at 11:48 PM (#3889201)
Here is an interesting list

Holy cow, Mussina gave up an ass-load of HR... a rate almost double that of other pitchers on the list.

And yes, Matt Morris gutted out some fair-to-middlin' seasons after his injury, but he was a hoss in his youth.
   30. Anonymous Observer Posted: July 31, 2011 at 02:13 AM (#3889353)
Albert Pujols wouldn't be impressed either.
   31. Hysterical & Useless Posted: July 31, 2011 at 02:22 AM (#3889361)
I've never understood what motivates someone to denigrate their opponent after the fact. "He's not so great." Yeah, but he just beat you, so doesn't that make you even farther from great? And even if you've won, well, if the other guy is crap, where's the glory in beating him? All my opponents are world-beaters, and I'm just proud to have had the good fortune to be on the same field/court/rink/pitch/course/planet with them.

Hey, I got this humility schtick down pat.

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