User Comments, Suggestions, or Complaints | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertising
Buy MLB playoff tickets, plus 2011 World Series, 2011 ALCS tickets and NLCS game tickets. We also have Texas Rangers playoff schedule, tickets to Red Sox games and Yankees game tickets. Plus, buy Phillies baseball tickets, Tigers playoff tickets and the biggies like ALDS baseball tickets and 2011 NLDS tickets. |
Demarini, Easton and TPX Baseball Bats
|
AllianceTickets.com has cheap MLB Tickets. Get all your Colorado Rockies Tickets, Seattle Mariners Tickets, San Francisco Giants Tickets and all your favorite baseball tickets here. We also carry cheap Denver Broncos Tickets, Seattle Seahawks Tickets and Denver Nuggets Tickets. |
Page rendered in 0.6454 seconds
54 querie(s) executed
Reader Comments and Retorts
Go to end of page
Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.
I'll ignore Lasorda's hyperbole but it does make me wonder if Babe Ruth ever met Enrico Caruso.
Based upon this story, probably not.
DB
So when exactly did you start hating Italians?
When both Dimaggio and Sinatra were still alive, I used to ask random New Yorkers which one's obiturary would rate the more prominent headline in the Times if they were to die on the same day. The responses were split almost exactly down the middle.
As it turned out, their deaths both made the top of the fold, but it would have made for an interesting edition if my hypothesis had been fulfilled.
Funny story, but IIRC Caruso and Ruth were both involved in World War I Liberty Loan drives. It's quite possible that they did meet.
I wonder if Lasorda ever tried to get John Wayne and Frank Sinatra to smooze..
"Thank you. And you are?"
"George Ruth, sir."
"Sorry, I'm not familiar with the name."
"I'm a baseball player, pitcher mostly. I play for the Boston Red Sox."
"Oh, I am a Highlanders fan I'm afraid."
"I think they call themselves the Yankees now, sir."
"I will NEVER accept that name change. Ruth? Ruth? Yes, I think I remember you now. Left-handed pitcher yes?"
[blushing with pride] "Yes, sir. I can't believe you know who I am."
"They should let you hit the ball more."
"Really?"
"Yes. You are a very good hitter."
"Not really, sir. I strike out way too much, it's embarrassing."
"No, no. Listen to me son, as long as you balance the strikeouts with the -- what you call them? bases on balls? yes? -- then this is OK. A strikeout is like any other out -- what, you would rather pop up?"
"I don't know sir, I really like pitching. Hitting is so boring."
"Trust me ... also, chicks dig the long ball."
"The what?"
"The long ball ... the, ummmm ... home run? Yes?"
"But that's the most boring play in baseball, sir, it is much more exciting to steal bases."
"No, no, no. Stolen bases are not very useful, especially when many runs are being scored. Last year, American League averaged over 7 runs a game!"
"It is getting kind of silly, isn't it? I start to wonder whether hitters are using some sort of miracle pill or something."
"This is crazy talk, no hit baseball if all bulked up. Anyway, nice to meeet you, and you remember -- ask them to hit you more and you hit home runs, no worry about strikeouts."
"Yes, thank you sir. An honor to meet you."
"Rico, who was that?"
"Eh, some nobody kid, a real babe in the woods, you know?"
Perhaps you should consider a late career change to screen writing?
After you undoubtedly become famous, all your old BTF pals can drop your name at cocktail parties with the gambit of " hell, I used to know Walt back in the 'oughts when he was worried about WAR and OPS+, not lousy screen credits".
What exactly does this gesture look like?
Also, what the hell were they doing until 3 AM?
Never mind, I'm sorry I asked.
C'mon, he gave him the "call me" sign -- thumb to ear, pinky to mouth, etc. Ted was always very up on teen culture. Huge 'nsync fan too.
Enrico: Caruso, Bebe. My friends call me Babyface. Babyface Caruso..
Babe: Babe. Oh, that is a coincidence?
Enrico: Why?
Babe: How the hell should I know? Can't we get a drink around here?
Enrico: I sing. Opera. What do you do?
Babe [edging away]: I play ball. Opera, really?. How's that for picking up girls [doubtfully]
Enrico: We all play ball, and I'm married.
Babe: Me, too. [wink, wink, nudge, nudge]. Hey, check out the rack on that broad over there.
Enrico: That's my wife.
Babe: I mean the broad next to her.
Enrico: That's your wife.
Babe: Really? Aw hell, let's go get drunk. There's this cathouse nearby--a girl works there who'll teach you something about throwing submarine pitches.
Enrico: The wives aren't looking. Lead the way, Mr. Baby Ruth.
Babe: Oh Henry. [they exit arms over shoulders singing a duet of "I Wanna Be In That Numba, When The Saints Go Over There]
.
I am already working on the libretto for MoneyBall: The Opera
The first time I read that sentence, I missed the word "music."
I fail to see the appeal of Frank Sinatra.
That makes two of us (though I did enjoy James Kaplan's recent biography).
Try this.
He did My Funny Valentine better than anyone.
Say whatever you want about him, he was a great, great artist.
I didn't think I could like John Wayne anymore than I did, but now I do.
It would have been awesome if he had decked Sinatra too.
BTW, Dean Martin was much better. Better singer, better dancer, better actor, better looking.
And, he was a better painter too.
He decidedly did not do it better than Chet Baker.
Sarah Vaughan live In Tokyo with only her pianist (Carl Schroeder) takes the cake. It's late-ish Sarah, but what she lost in vocal agility (not much), she gained in musicality and sublime phrasing.
I love Sinatra - but Ella on her 40th Birthday in Rome is my favorite vocal recording of all time.
[edited to clarify recording]
Sorry, I missed it. I have never seen the movie. I'll have to look out for it.
For those who think Webb is just this ridiculously super-serious humorless guy with the metronomic line readings (from Dragnet), there's also the movie he co-starred with Robert Mitchum: The Last Time I Saw Archie. It's kind of a shaggy dog tale about an inveterate schemer who nevertheless always comes out on top. Not a great comedy, but different, and it deals with a subject out of the usual--older guys who were drafted in WWII.
The Last Time I Saw Archie
ridiculous. i can't speak to the dancer, actor, handsomeness part, but there is no way in heaven and earth that martin was a better singer. he was, oh i don't know ... a crooner. also, martin was not a great artist in another sense. he spent his life basically squandering his talent, hanging out, working when he felt like it, etc. ... he never worked hard to make himself a great artist the way sinatra did. sinatra cared about his craft, he was driven to be a great singer and a great interpreter of others music and he succeeded in spite of his messy personal life. he's an inner circle great american musician. there's no way you can say that about martin. martin barely gave a damn. that's a deeply unskillful approach and unworthy of whatever talent he had.
TCM just showed -30-, jack webb's movie about a newspaper newsroom in the late 50s. an interesting flick.
He decidedly did not do it better than Chet Baker.
Have to agree there, but then I'm much more of a Chet Baker fan than 99% of the jazz fandom. His Mosaic set has one disk that's all vocals, and he covers them as well as anyone.
Of course there's no such thing as a singer who does every song better than every other singer. The test is how many songs they own, and how many songs they fall way short on.
By that standard, Sinatra blows them all away, though Sarah's pretty close on the ones they sang in common. Ella's great, too, but more in a craftsman's sense, along the lines of a Mel Torme. You never get the emotion from those two the way you do from Sinatra at his best, and that's what sets Sinatra apart. In Fitzgerald's case, other than Manhattan and Miss Otis Regrets I can't think of a single song she really "owns". No matter how good she is in scores of her versions, there's always someone who on a particular song is just a little bit better. (And please don't say Mack The Knife, which is only owned by the anonymous "Streetsinger" in the 1954 version of The Threepenny Opera.)**
The one real tragic figure in jazz singing isn't Chet Baker, who threw away his talent in pursuit of a drug habit. It's not even Billie Holiday, who at least made it to 44. It's Eva Cassidy, who died of melanoma in her early 30's. I won't bother to link them here, but anyone who's ever heard her sing Fields of Gold, Over the Rainbow, or It's a Wonderful World (where she outdoes even Armstrong, hard as it may be to believe) will know what I'm talking about. She got "inside" a song better than all but the tiniest handful of great artists.
**Listening to Fitzgerald's and Darin's versions, you feel mildly entertained. Listening to the "Streetsinger's" version, you feel like you're about to get your throat slit.
---------------------------------------
BTW, Dean Martin was much better [than Sinatra]. Better singer, better dancer, better actor, better looking
That's so breathtakingly bizarre it's hard to know where to begin. You might as well have said Tony Martin if you want to go for broke. It's like saying that Doris Day was a better singer than Dinah Washington or a better comedienne than Jean Harlow or Julia Louis-Dreyfuss.
---------------------------------------
TCM just showed -30-, jack webb's movie about a newspaper newsroom in the late 50s. an interesting flick.
Just finalized my recording and will watch it for sure. Webb is kind of a stick figure, but before he got completely ossified in his Sgt. Friday persona he did play a credible detective in the Richard Basehart uber-noir, He Walked By Night.
Greatest comedy line in movie history.
I still think of Obama's motto as: Yes we can, if Frank Sinatra says it's OK.
Ella owns Summertime. Ella owns My Funny Valentine a lot more than Sinatra owns it.
And those Beatles, ugh. And why do people like ice cream so much? Or sex?
I camn't believe you didn't get "The Producers" reference, Andy.
I like Sinatra fine, but let's calm down. He was nothing special. He half-assed talked his way through most of his songs, and his acting is cringe-worthy. Without his mafioso connections (helping him, and working against all singers of a similar style; they actually stopped clubs from booking Bobby Darrin and other), and his Camelot/Rat Pack associations, he's just one of a dozen crooners from the era.
In any case, it's all a matter of taste. How can you actually opine that I don't enjoy Dean Martin more?
You got me there, snaps. There's nothing like getting hit in your eye like a big pizza pie to get the old juices flowing.
But, the craftsman comment applies more to Sarah than Ella. Sarah rehearsed her arrangements and typically reproduced them pretty accurately night after night. Ella sang more organically, improvisationally night after night. Sarah had the traditional chops at the piano and vocally. Ella was more the super-star improviser who trusted her ear to guide her through the changes. Also, her friggin' time was unreal. Ella knocks my socks off every time - but more on live recordings. Her studio stuff can feel too sterile.
Anyway, fun chat about jazz vocals.
And Dean Martin was his generations Britany Spears to Christina Aguilera (Sinatra)...
Here I think we're just looking for different things in a vocalist. I can appreciate Ella's improvisations and originality (translation: genius), but at the same time I don't feel the emotional depth to her singing that I find in Sarah, Billie, Dinah, Eva Cassidy, or (yes) Sinatra, not to mention many of the great gospel singers, both black and white. But when it comes to talent on this level, then obviously this is just a matter of taste, and it's certainly not meant to be a knock on Ella.
-----------------------------------------------
If you want
croonin'the world's most powerful sleeping pill there's ol Bingo and then there's everyone else.And not only that, with ol Bingo you'll never fail a drug test!
It is unfathomable that somebody might not light cutesy children's music dressed up in 60s pretentiousness and flower-child BS, I'll grant you that.
No one's commented yet on the headline?
That's Lasorda in a nutshell. Someone should tell him he doesn't ever have to talk.
That's amazing that you can actually do this for any one singer, even those two greats. My tops are Dinah, Sarah, Billie, Sinatra, and about a hundred others in jazz, R&B, gospel and country/bluegrass, but I can't even imagine listening to them for more than an hour or two at a time before I'd be completely burned out. When I had my shop, I used to alternate between the local jazz station and our CD collection just to avoid all the repetition, and now I listen to music only in my car or very selectively on YouTube.
My office-based work is almost entirely reading and writing. I finally gave up on listening to music with English-language lyrics while I'm working, because it's just too distracting. Anybody else get this? On the bright side, I can (literally) listen to Beethoven or Maria Schneider or John Fahey all day long.
It's that very attitude that lead us to the Black Eyed Peas. Shame on you.
If I want music that inspires pep I'll always have Eddie Cantor.
So he sucker-punched him after faking that he was walking away? (How do you "backhand" a bodyguard, and have the guy fall to the floor?)
Odds that the source of this story is John Wayne, and no one else remembers anything like this happening: 99.99999997%.
Whaddya expect from a man named "Marion", I'm surprised he didn't hit the lug with his purse.
He used his pimp-hand.
And what was he supposed to do?
"Hello young ruffian, I wish to engage in fisticuffs, I will allow you three blows before I return in kind."
But yea, Marion probably made it up.
Its not like he is Screamin Jay Hawkins.
Sinatra's delivery of "Is your mouth a little weak" is wonderful, though. (And the fact that I can summon that up in my mind is proof that I have listened to way too many standards recordings over the years.) But the Sinatra version I'm thinking of also has the IMO ill-considered decision to go into 3/4 time part of the way through. Makes the arrangement a little silly for my tastes.
Anyway, I would argue that Chet Baker did "My Funny Valentine" as well as anyone. Various "owners" of other standards, completely IMO:
"Always True to You in My Fashion," Jo Stafford
"You Grow Sweeter as the Years Go By," Connee Boswell
"The Song is Ended (But the Melody Lingers On)," Annette Hanshaw
"It Never Entered My Mind," Lee Wiley
"Love Me or Leave Me," Peggy Lee
"The Folks Who Live on the Hill," Maxine Sullivan
"I'll Follow My Secret Heart," Helen Forrest
That's a lot of girls ... so how about
"Lush Life," Johnny Hartman (with John Coltrane)
"Change Partners," Fred Astaire
"The One I Love Belongs to Somebody Else," Frank Sinatra (there's a slow version on a Capitol recording, just great. He did it a lot, though, and often perfunctorily. Same applies to "One for My Baby," there's a Capitol alternate version that beats any of the others).
"Time after Time," Chet Baker
Not that you're being serious, or that I'm taking you serious, but many persons, including Garry Wills in his book, have noted how really strong John Wayne was. Then there is this. from the same source:
Jo also owns "The Nearness of You," which is a big one to own.
Y R, i've been trying to get in touch with you.
Have you heard of a "karate chop"? I'm pretty sure it wasn't a slap.
Might've even had more than a bit of forearm to it.
Yes.
Jack Webb also gave his blessing to Stan Freberg's Dragnet spoof 45s in the 1950s.
Yeah, I think so. Both mellowed considerably in their later years. Related to this same point, I remember that Wayne was at the AFI tribute to James Cagney. He even gave a short speech praising Cagney his table in the audience. You could tell a) he and Cagney had never been personally close, but b) he nevertheless greatly respected Cagney. This despite them being at opposite ends of the Hollywood political battles for years. Feelings can change in the autumn and winter of life. Without changing his beliefs, Wayne became more amicable and less belligerent in his later years when it came to politics.
Jo also owns "The Nearness of You," which is a big one to own.
Jo owns "You Belong to Me", but "The Nearness of You" is Sassy's alone.
EDIT: And I'll also give Miz Stafford credit for owning one of the all time great ballads, "Long Ago and Far Away", even if the link has her dubbing it for Rita Hayworth in Cover Girl.
And not only that, with ol Bingo you'll never fail a drug test!
SPOILER ALERT: Bing Crosby was a major pothead in the 1930s. As an old man, he advocated legalization during some interviews.
Frank Sinatra never topped this one.
Yeah, she's terrific on that version (not Jo Stafford terrific, but damn good). The problem there is the background singers, who just get in the way. Too much like the Jordanaires that used to back up Presley when he was transitioning from great to horrific.
----------------------------
it's Der Bingle. And his work in the 20s is revolutionary. Bing --> Astaire --> Sinatra. Comparable in its importance, though not in its quality, to Louis Armstrong.
I've heard this, I've heard some of that early work, and I'll give him credit for it. But 99% of what little you hear of him now is the Sominex stuff, not to mention that his movies are something I wouldn't even subject Newt Gingrich or The Good Face to---my sadism has its limits.
####### actors.
***
So I just took a listen to In the Wee Small Hours of the Morning. My ears must be tuned differently. The lyrics are, to put it politely, unimaginative. The strings are thoroughly, painfully saccharine. Sinatra's interpretation... banal. He's so... careful.
I'm not trying to be a dick, really, but that's an awful song.
edit: the upcoming Sarah Palin movie looks like it might be interesting. That's some cast: Ed Harris, Julieanne Moore, Woody Harrelson.
So can this. As awesome as her singing is, that the lead guitar keeps pace with her is amazing.
I heard a voice coach say since she never paced herself there's no way her voice would have lasted into her mid30s. The Zumaya of singers. What a shame.
edit: any Tigers fan recall why Zumaya was converted to relief? He was a damned good starter in 2005, and never started again. Seems like an odd use for a guy k'ing 12 per 9 as a starter, with decent control
Coke to billyjack.
I'm not trying to be a dick, really, but that's an awful song.
That's not one of my favorites, either. And there are some Sinatras like "My Kind of Town" that just leave me scratching my head at their sheer banality. In a 50 year career there are bound to be songs like that scattered among the many hundreds. But if you can't enjoy "(Say It) Over and Over Again" (one of his best Dorseys), "I've Got You Under My Skin," "My Way", "Young at Heart", "It Was a Very Good Year", or (if you're not a New York hater) "New York, New York", I'd suggest your soul is in need of a reboot.
Of course you might say the same thing about me, since I've never seen the big deal about Janis Joplin. She never sounded anything more to me than just another white singer who was trying to sound black, and not doing a very good job of it. The contrast between her and a genuine talent like Eva Cassidy is like the contrast between Tommy Aaron and his (no pun intended) big brother.
All of which is to say that musical taste will always be subjective. Jesus, even ####### Dean Martin seems to have his followers. It takes all types.
I loved this and wanted it repeated, but I got nothin' else.
You really don't like Dean Martin? I think Sinatra is overrated, but still has plenty of good work.
Dean is the same basic model of singer, but with a better voice, but less affect. I can see likikng him less, but not at all?
Dean is the same basic model of singer, but with a better voice, but less affect. I can see likikng him less, but not at all?
If Dean Martin "the same basic model of singer" as Frank Sinatra, then Rex Grossman is the same basic model of quarterback as Joe Montana.
I don't dislike him personally, but if I were running a 7-11 and had loitering problems, Dino would be my first and last choice for loudspeaker music.** It's like watching Allan Jones serenading Kitty Carlisle in a Marx Brothers movie, accompanied by Chico's index finger on the piano. Mildly amusing the first time around, but total schmaltz and zero talent. Obviously I'm missing something.
**Although the volume would have to be set low enough so that only the loiterers could hear it, since otherwise you'd be down to about three customers a day.
As for Janis being 'just another white singer...', sorry about that hearing problem :)
A well executed spinning backfist can be devastating. The most famous is still probably Shone Carter's KO of Matt Serra. Serra's a really tough guy even in the context of a professional fighter.
Since Wayne had turned away he'd have had to execute something similar even if he'd never seen the move.
Wayne does a move that sounds sort of like this in McLintock, turns away then rocks back and clubs a guy with what seems to be both hands held together. It's right at the start of The Great Mud Fight.
Martin always sounded drunk when he sang, which was probably mostly because he was drunk, but at least Sinatra knew how to sing drunk and still sound great.
Most people around here are very skeptical when it comes to Canadians. You just never can trust those types.
I think Celine Dion, and her enormous head, are involved somehow.
Fair enough, but I was talking about the album as a whole, not just the one song. It's one of those records that has to be heard as a complete album to actually get it. To me, it's the ultimate 3 AM in the morning, cry-in-your-beer album. It's not exactly a party album, and it may not be for everyone's taste, but strung together, it creates a unique mood.
... just took a listen and this is much better; the first song of his that, literally, I've enjoyed. It doesn't sound at all like the Sinatra of the early 50s and onward.
That may be because the Sinatra from that point forward sounded nothing like the early Sinatra with the Dorsey band. That was when he was known as "the voice", and "(Say It)..." is but one of scores of examples. I don't like all of his cuts from any period---nobody will---but his ongoing ability to reinvent himself is what makes him stand alone. The headline above the Times's obituary said it all in four words: "Matchless Stylist of Pop".
As for Janis being 'just another white singer...', sorry about that hearing problem :)
Could be, but then I first heard her through "Piece of My Heart" after I'd already burned Erma Franklin's original (and much better) version in my mind through about 100 listenings. I'm sure Joplin's as good as it gets for that particular genre (white singers imitating blacks)**, but that's never been one of my favorite genres.
**As opposed to white singers who take the same songs and do something a bit more original with them, the way Eva Cassidy did on many occasions. And yes, I know that this is all completely subjective, but that's my honest reaction. I never thought much of Otis Redding's version of "Satisfaction", either, so it's not meant to be a one-way comment.
I can only speak for myself, but I'd say that Buble is fine in small doses. The problem is that we don't get small doses.
Wow. WTF happened to his voice later on?
His voice crapped out way before age should have been an issue.
I'll Be Seeing You
Devil May Care
Polka Dots and Moonbeams
His voice crapped out way before age should have been an issue.
That's just ridiculous. Not all great voices have to sound like the early Sinatra. Louis Armstrong, for one.
Louis Armstrong was a great entertainer, but he had no voice. Having or not having a voice is not subjective, like ability as an entertainer is. A vocal coach can put a singer through his paces and tell you how good the voice is. That doesn't mean that singer can make entertaining music with the voice, but it's a tool. Like in baseball, speed and velocity may not translate to results, but they're objectively measurable things.
Sinatra's voice changed markedly, from a very clear strong voice, to basically speaking half his songs. I'm asking did he suffer some loss of his voice, or was it an intentional style?
Along those lines, to carry it to an absurdity. Anyone remember the comic impressionist, around 1980. who would do a spot-on impression of Sinatra doing things like Mr. Bruce Springstein's Born to Run, with a full big band orchestra behind. He was really good.
I don't what you have in mind, or when this is supposed to have happened, but that's not how I remember Sinatra from the '60s and '70s into the '80s. You got to remember, no one--not athlete, actor, writer, or singer--stays the same or gets better. Degeneration takes place with everything. That's why you don't judge Joe DiMaggio by his 1951 season or by his Mr. Coffee commercials. Nor should it be the mainstay of your memory of him.
His voice changed, and he adapted the change to different types of songs. There isn't much more to it than that. You could say his voice "degenerated", and while that's technically accurate it doesn't say anything about the overall quality of his work, which most critics say improved during the 50's and 60's.
----------------------------
I'm familiar with the post-1950 Sinatra recordings, but I don't know much about the earlier stuff, especially the work with Dorsey. Can anyone recommend a CD collection that would serve as a good introduction to this period?
The Sinatra-Dorsey mother lode is The Song Is You, a 5 CD / 120 song collection that you can get used on Amazon for $9.99. That's how I got mine, and they all played perfectly.
Agreed, a good voice doesn't necessarily make a good entertainer.
I had just never heard early Sinatra before, and was shocked by the magnitude of the change. I probably wouldn't have recognized his voice if I heard that song randomly.
It seems to have changed more from ~1940 to 1950's than it did from 1950's to 1980's. Which surprises me.
That makes sense.
When he came back, he was able to...SING LIKE A MAN!!!
Steroids!
Thank you! Unfortunately, the $9.99 one has onely one of the five discs, and the complete sets are going for a bundle. I'll check to see if my library has a copy.
You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.
<< Back to main