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Monday, December 09, 2013

Tony La Russa Bobby Cox, Joe Torre all unanimously elected to the Hall of Fame

For the first time in a long time we have living, breathing inductees for the Hall of Fame. The Veteran’s Committee has elected Bobby Cox, Tony La Russa, . They will be inducted next July 27th in Cooperstown.

...Left on the outside looking in: Dave Concepcion, Steve Garvey, Tommy John, Billy Martin, Marvin Miller, Dave Parker, Dan Quisenberry, Ted Simmons and George Steinbrenner, all of whom failed to gain more than six votes. Twelve votes were required for induction.

Thanks to Butch.

Repoz Posted: December 09, 2013 at 11:18 AM | 126 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. Canker Soriano Posted: December 09, 2013 at 11:28 AM (#4614088)
Their career win totals should be adjusted for steroids. No way Bobby Cox got that body naturally.
   2. ajnrules Posted: December 09, 2013 at 11:33 AM (#4614094)
Now can we get over the hubbub about there never having been a unanimous election and vote Greg Maddux in unanimously? XD

Congrats to three deserving managers. Sucks that Marvin Miller got passed over again.
   3. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: December 09, 2013 at 11:34 AM (#4614095)
Their career win totals should be adjusted for steroids. No way Bobby Cox got that body naturally.


His wife can certainly attest to his tendency toward 'roid rage.
   4. John Northey Posted: December 09, 2013 at 11:35 AM (#4614099)
Surprised how few votes anyone else got. None with more than half of the required number to make it. Bit sad with Marvin Miller who was 1 vote away last time I think (not that it matters now that he is dead). I thought Tommy John and Dave Concepcion would both do better too. Didn't see Parker doing well due to the drugs, even if it was coke and not PED. Garvey just doesn't belong, nor does Quisenberry (as much as I loved watching him pitch). Simmons is a guy I figure needs time to build a case. Steinbrenner is a wild card - always was when alive and will continue to be in voting.
   5. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: December 09, 2013 at 11:36 AM (#4614103)
Congrats to the 3 inductees, all very deserving.

And while it is still completely wrong that Marvin Miller's not in the Hall, I'm not actually getting upset about it this year. Having 3 other non-player candidates with extremely strong credentials, and a limited number of votes was always going to hurt his candidacy. Hopefully things will work out better in 3 years.
   6. JJ1986 Posted: December 09, 2013 at 11:37 AM (#4614105)
I probably missed it, but why wasn't Bobby Grich on the ballot?
   7. Howie Menckel Posted: December 09, 2013 at 11:38 AM (#4614108)
anticipating the usual Marvin Miller bleating - am I a bad person if I wish no non-players or non-managers were in the Hall of Fame?

sure, if Tom Yawkey and Bowie Kuhn are in, Miller belongs, too - to say the least. but can we just visit a place where we celebrate the game action?

   8. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: December 09, 2013 at 11:38 AM (#4614110)
Joe Torre is just a guy.
   9. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: December 09, 2013 at 11:40 AM (#4614111)
I probably missed it, but why wasn't Bobby Grich on the ballot?


Because HOF voting is a complete sham.
   10. Best Regards, President of Comfort Posted: December 09, 2013 at 11:42 AM (#4614115)
Do the Yankees retire #6 this year?
   11. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: December 09, 2013 at 11:42 AM (#4614116)
I think the various voting bodies may well be aware of Miller's public, vehement desire to never be in the Hall of Fame.

Also, managers ought to be subject to the same five-year waiting period as players.
   12. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: December 09, 2013 at 11:44 AM (#4614120)
I think the various voting bodies may well be aware of Miller's public, vehement desire to never be in the Hall of Fame.


An explanation, finally, for why I haven't been enshrined.
   13. winnipegwhip Posted: December 09, 2013 at 11:47 AM (#4614125)
Tony La Russa is thrilled that he is now an inductee at Cooperstown. He has so many ideas of how to run the Hall of Fame dinner and the induction ceremonies in a better fashion than they are currently run.


It should be easy to find LaRussa on induction weekend. How many intersections with traffic lights exist in Cooperstown?
   14. cardsfanboy Posted: December 09, 2013 at 11:54 AM (#4614134)
I do think it's funny that all three got in unanimously, when there were people on here debating whether some of these guys would even make it because of "burnt" bridges and the like.
   15. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: December 09, 2013 at 11:55 AM (#4614138)
but can we just visit a place where we celebrate the game action?


The history of the game is heavily influenced by off the field action. I think people like Miller etc...are certainly people who are meaningful to the history of the game. Whether that should or should not include enshrinement I'll leave to you but I think some exhibition of the contribution of these people makes sense.
   16. zonk Posted: December 09, 2013 at 11:56 AM (#4614141)
If Steve Garvey is ever elected to the Hall of Fame, I will cease being a baseball fan... I might even renounce humanity and join reptiles or some other biologic class.
   17. AROM Posted: December 09, 2013 at 11:58 AM (#4614144)
I probably missed it, but why wasn't Bobby Grich on the ballot?


Grich (1970-1986) played as a direct contemporary of Concepcion (1970-1988). While Grich was a great defensive 2B who did play some at short, Concepcion being a gold glove SS had more defensive value just because of position. The stats bear this out (20.9-16.2 edge in DWAR).

Concepcion was the greater hitter, batting .267 to Grich's .266. Sure, Bobby's huge edge in walks and power means he was worth almost 40 more wins at the plate over his career, and it's true that even in the 70's walks and power were valued. But not for middle infielders. Judging solely on batting average and defensive value, especially with Concepcion playing about 400 more games, it is clear which one should be the finalist.
   18. SG Posted: December 09, 2013 at 11:58 AM (#4614145)
Wasn't Miller pretty adamant about not wanting to be in the Hall of Fame before he passed? Maybe the voters are just respecting his wishes?
   19. Der-K: Hipster doofus Posted: December 09, 2013 at 11:58 AM (#4614146)
16/zonk: Thus being like Garvey? Foolhardy, sir.

14/cfb: Cite?
   20. Flynn Posted: December 09, 2013 at 11:59 AM (#4614147)
Tony La Russa is thrilled that he is now an inductee at Cooperstown. He has so many ideas of how to run the Hall of Fame dinner and the induction ceremonies in a better fashion than they are currently run.


In his honor, I think the waiter passing out the bread rolls should be replaced halfway through by a left handed waiter who serves bread rolls for one table, and then a special guy comes in just to pass out rolls to the inductees and the Hall's board of trustees.
   21. AROM Posted: December 09, 2013 at 12:01 PM (#4614149)
I might even renounce humanity and join reptiles or some other biologic class.


Careful. That would make you closer genetically to Garvey. Look at some YouTube/MLBTV of the 1977/78 world series. There are a few plays where Garvey slides and scrapes off a bit of his exterior skin, and you can see (though not clearly, HD wasn't yet invented) the green scaly skin just like those aliens from V.

Edit: And I owe Der K a caffeinated beverage.
   22. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: December 09, 2013 at 12:01 PM (#4614150)
On the Veterans' Committee, whoever could possibly have voted against Cox or Torre? On what grounds? LaRussa's personality might have rubbed a few of them the wrong way, but with his record he's a no-brainer, and his abrasiveness isn't any worse than scores of other inductees.

Miller's repeated omission is a disgrace, of course, but any acknowledgements that baseball gives to him are likely to be confined to the two or three extra zeros on the average player's contract. Some of those fools probably think that Miller had nothing to do with that.
   23. Guapo Posted: December 09, 2013 at 12:03 PM (#4614154)
Raise your hand if you called this back in 1979...

Cox's Braves went 66-94 in his second season after going 66-93 in his first season

LaRussa's White Sox went 73-87 in his first season (LaRussa took over halfway through the year and went 27-27)

Torre's Mets went 63-99 in his third season after he went 49-68 in his first season and 66-96 in his second season
   24. DL from MN Posted: December 09, 2013 at 12:04 PM (#4614156)
why wasn't Bobby Grich on the ballot?


Because it's nearly the same screening committee every time.
   25. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 09, 2013 at 12:06 PM (#4614157)
anticipating the usual Marvin Miller bleating - am I a bad person if I wish no non-players or non-managers were in the Hall of Fame?


I view them as secondary level inductees. I grant that they are considered by the Hall as full HOFers.
   26. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: December 09, 2013 at 12:09 PM (#4614162)
Surprised how few votes anyone else got.

If there are three unanimous inductees, it kind of limits the number of ballot slots available for other people. (The ballots are limited to 4, right? Or is it 5?)
   27. DL from MN Posted: December 09, 2013 at 12:12 PM (#4614168)
Looks like Ted Simmons needs to manage the Yankees for a while
   28. Kiko Sakata Posted: December 09, 2013 at 12:22 PM (#4614180)
The ballots are limited to 4, right? Or is it 5?


5, but the point remains the same.
   29. zonk Posted: December 09, 2013 at 12:25 PM (#4614183)
I'm surprised Billy Martin's resume isn't quite as good as I thought it was....
   30. Rough Carrigan Posted: December 09, 2013 at 12:27 PM (#4614188)
Tony doesn't think waiters should bus tables as well. Maybe just a waiter who can reel off the salad dressing options to take the orders then the one who's the best at carrying trays to bring the food and of course a special waiter for always serving on the left.
   31. formerly dp Posted: December 09, 2013 at 12:32 PM (#4614194)
Semi-related: Doc announced his retirement today. Very sad to see him go, even if he did have some of his best years pitching for the Phils...
   32. Jeltzandini Posted: December 09, 2013 at 12:36 PM (#4614206)
I'm surprised Billy Martin's resume isn't quite as good as I thought it was....


I didn't realize what a crappy player he was.
   33. Misirlou is on hiding to nowhere Posted: December 09, 2013 at 12:41 PM (#4614215)
Halladay never got to 100 games over .500. He peaked at 99 games over many times during 2012 and 2013, but never got over the hump. Finishes his career at 98 over.
   34. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: December 09, 2013 at 12:49 PM (#4614224)
I'm surprised Billy Martin's resume isn't quite as good as I thought it was....


I didn't realize what a crappy player he was.

From 1952 through 1956 he was a passably good cog in the Yankee machine, and he played key roles in three Yankees World Series wins against the Dodgers. Doesn't mean I'd vote for him as a HoFer, either as a player (obviously) or as a manager.
   35. willcarrolldoesnotsuk Posted: December 09, 2013 at 12:52 PM (#4614229)
Is Torre explicitly "as a manager"? Or "as a player" (which I doubt - I'm not saying it would be completely unreasonable to put him in as a player, I'm just saying I doubt the VC would put him in as a player without considering his managerial career also), or some combination? Does the Veterans' Committee explicitly make such distinctions?

I know the article says something like "he wouldn't have made it without his managerial career", but that seems like it's probably just the writer's opinion (I'm not saying it's an unreasonable opinion).
   36. Fred Garvin is dead and Joe Biden is alive Posted: December 09, 2013 at 12:57 PM (#4614237)
Miller got "six or less votes." Considering that the panel included six former players (Rod Carew, Andre Dawson, Carlton Fisk, Paul Molitor, Phil Niekro and Frank Robinson), it is quite possible that one of these guys snubbed him -- despite each one personally benefiting from his work.
   37. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 09, 2013 at 12:58 PM (#4614239)
I know the article says something like "he wouldn't have made it without his managerial career", but that seems like it's probably just the writer's opinion (I'm not saying it's an unreasonable opinion).


He should have been in years ago on the strength of his playing career. Oh well. At least he gets his plaque while he's still alive.
   38. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 09, 2013 at 12:59 PM (#4614241)
Cox and LaRussa are both flaming ########, but they were good at their jobs and are worthy selections.

I'm encouraged to see Steinbrenner draw so little support. Hold that line, boys!
   39. DL from MN Posted: December 09, 2013 at 01:08 PM (#4614252)
VC elections are always "combined". They will mention Torre's playing career and managing on his plaque.
   40. DL from MN Posted: December 09, 2013 at 01:10 PM (#4614254)
I can't blame a player for "snubbing" Miller if their other two votes were to players. If they voted for Steinbrenner....
   41. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: December 09, 2013 at 01:10 PM (#4614255)
I feel like it bears repeating that everyone who knew Marvin Miller knows that he did not want elected to the Hall of Fame. He was extremely clear on this point. So anyone that knew and respected him is not going to vote for him.
   42. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: December 09, 2013 at 01:11 PM (#4614257)
If you had told me five years ago that Doc Halladay would finish his career closer to Kevin Appier than he was to Greg Maddux, I would have laughed at you.
   43. Steve Treder Posted: December 09, 2013 at 01:15 PM (#4614260)
A friend of mine made this point on Facebook:

Mind you, I don't begrudge any of these men induction into the HOF but I have to ask: so three guys who managed teams during the steroids era and had, at least in two cases, multiple alleged steroid users on their teams, get inducted into Cooperstown but the players themselves are getting shut out. I know it's two separate induction committees but this is going to get increasingly ridiculous if the Hall doesn't tell the writers to get over it.
   44. Flynn Posted: December 09, 2013 at 01:17 PM (#4614266)
I feel like it bears repeating that everyone who knew Marvin Miller knows that he did not want elected to the Hall of Fame. He was extremely clear on this point. So anyone that knew and respected him is not going to vote for him.


Wasn't that because he got snubbed over and over and said it as a #### you?

I'm pretty sure before the last vote (2007?) he was singing from a different hymn sheet.
   45. willcarrolldoesnotsuk Posted: December 09, 2013 at 01:18 PM (#4614269)
VC elections are always "combined". They will mention Torre's playing career and managing on his plaque.
But what does this really mean? Are you saying "They're always combined, therefore both will be mentioned"? Because if so... really?

I don't doubt they'll both be mentioned. I just doubt the implication that both will be mentioned because they're always combined. I mean, are they going to mention LaRussa's sub-Mendoza Line playing career on his plaque? Is LaRussa really going in as a "combined" player and manager?
   46. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: December 09, 2013 at 01:22 PM (#4614275)
Wasn't that because he got snubbed over and over and said it as a #### you?


Does it matter?
   47. Morty Causa Posted: December 09, 2013 at 01:23 PM (#4614276)
Anyone's last wishes in these circumstances will receive little respect. Now, it would be interesting if Bonds or Clemens went on record as not wanting to be on the ballot.
   48. Jeltzandini Posted: December 09, 2013 at 01:24 PM (#4614281)
From 1952 through 1956 he was a passably good cog in the Yankee machine


True, and it's more that I knew he had a decently long career, mostly with the Yankees, so I assumed he was a basically good player throughout. LIke a 20 WAR career player rather than his actual 3.

   49. Barnaby Jones Posted: December 09, 2013 at 01:25 PM (#4614282)
Cox and LaRussa are both flaming ########, but they were good at their jobs and are worthy selections.


Bitter Pirates fan is bitter.
   50. John Northey Posted: December 09, 2013 at 01:25 PM (#4614284)
It is funny that managers known for having steroid users on their teams got in with unanimous votes. Hopefully the writers get over themselves and Bonds and Clemens get in at some point in the next few years.

Meanwhile we now have a very strong ballot coming up in 5 years with 2 guys who should be easy first ballots - Rivera and Halladay. Pettitte should need a long time to get in. Does mean that the ballot crowding won't end anytime soon too.
   51. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: December 09, 2013 at 01:27 PM (#4614286)
Hopefully the writers get over themselves


LOL. You'd better have a big pile of snacks, because you're going to be sitting there hoping for more than just a few minutes.
   52. Barnaby Jones Posted: December 09, 2013 at 01:28 PM (#4614288)
Does it matter?


If he originally wanted it, but then claimed not to after it turned out the grapes were too sour, then yes it matters. It means he would actually have appreciated the honor.
   53. zonk Posted: December 09, 2013 at 01:31 PM (#4614290)
A friend of mine made this point on Facebook:

Mind you, I don't begrudge any of these men induction into the HOF but I have to ask: so three guys who managed teams during the steroids era and had, at least in two cases, multiple alleged steroid users on their teams, get inducted into Cooperstown but the players themselves are getting shut out. I know it's two separate induction committees but this is going to get increasingly ridiculous if the Hall doesn't tell the writers to get over it.


LaRussa especially... so some good may come TLR after all.
   54. DL from MN Posted: December 09, 2013 at 01:32 PM (#4614291)
are they going to mention LaRussa's sub-Mendoza Line playing career


They might mention that LaRussa played in the majors as an afterthought - "after his nondescript playing career". Torre actually has significant accomplishments as a player including an MVP award. They would be foolish not to mention them.

edit: changed language after viewing Alston and Schoendienst's plaques
   55. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: December 09, 2013 at 01:33 PM (#4614292)
Wait? How is Halladay an "easy first ballot" inductee? He's all peak, and it's not Pedro-peak.
   56. esseff Posted: December 09, 2013 at 01:36 PM (#4614297)
Also, managers ought to be subject to the same five-year waiting period as players.


They are. But the waiting period is reduced to six months for those over 65.
   57. Steve Treder Posted: December 09, 2013 at 01:42 PM (#4614304)
They might mention that LaRussa played in the majors as an afterthought - "after his nondescript playing career".

His playing career is notable only in that he was one of the last of the Bonus Babies (as was, interestingly, Dave Duncan).
   58. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: December 09, 2013 at 01:49 PM (#4614316)
Cox never got out of AAA as a player (mostly with the Dodgers.) My favorite fact about him is that as a 30 year old washed out infielder, he tried to convert to pitching for the Yankees. Dude was willing, as a 30 year old, to go back to A ball and try to pitch just to stay in the game. Definition of a lifer.
   59. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: December 09, 2013 at 01:49 PM (#4614317)
From 1952 through 1956 [Billy Martin] was a passably good cog in the Yankee machine

True, and it's more that I knew he had a decently long career, mostly with the Yankees, so I assumed he was a basically good player throughout. LIke a 20 WAR career player rather than his actual 3.


Martin accumulated 6.0 WAR between 1952 and 1956, nearly two years of which (1954-55) he spent in the Army. For those 399 games, he averaged 2.4 WAR/162. For the other 7 years, his total WAR was -3.1. At the time of the Copacabana trade to KC in mid-1957, he'd already started to slide into negative territory.
   60. Howie Menckel Posted: December 09, 2013 at 01:50 PM (#4614318)

Halladay is borderline to get in at all via the writers, though I'd vote for him.
   61. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: December 09, 2013 at 01:54 PM (#4614329)
Halladay's a well qualified Hall of Famer and I think he'll get in via the writers before his 15 years are up. The baseball landscape's going to look a lot different in 2033.
   62. Steve Treder Posted: December 09, 2013 at 01:56 PM (#4614332)
Cox never got out of AAA as a player (mostly with the Dodgers.)

Well, other than his stint as the Yankees' first-string third baseman in 1968, and as a utility man in '69.
   63. Greg K Posted: December 09, 2013 at 01:56 PM (#4614333)
I've got Halladay roughly ranked around guys like Dazzy Vance, Stan Coveleski, and Kevin Brown. Which I think makes him a fairly comfortable yes for me. But I get the sense that non-Maddux/Johnson/Clemens modern pitchers are in tough with the voters...so I'd be kind of surprised if Halladay gets in without a protracted battle (if at all).
   64. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: December 09, 2013 at 01:56 PM (#4614334)
I guess he has a narrative, but his brute numbers line up somewhere between Kevin Appier and Kevin Brown. I don't think he's a mortal lock by any means.
   65. TerpNats Posted: December 09, 2013 at 02:03 PM (#4614342)
I remember Cox as a third baseman with the Syracuse Chiefs and later the Yankees in the late '60s.

In retrospect, if the White Sox had held onto LaRussa, they probably would have reached the promised land before 2005, and in fact might have done it multiple times. Why Ken Harrelson (who as Sox GM fired LaRussa) is not only back on the South Side, but is beloved by the Chisox faithful, remains one of the mysteries of humanity.
   66. zonk Posted: December 09, 2013 at 02:08 PM (#4614354)
In retrospect, if the White Sox had held onto LaRussa, they probably would have reached the promised land before 2005, and in fact might have done it multiple times. Why Ken Harrelson (who as Sox GM fired LaRussa) is not only back on the South Side, but is beloved by the Chisox faithful, remains one of the mysteries of humanity.


Eh, Sox fans aren't really into the whole baseball thing... They just follow baseball as a vehicle to listen to Hawk kvetch about this, that, and the other...

/Cubs fan picking a fight
   67. JJ1986 Posted: December 09, 2013 at 02:16 PM (#4614369)
Halladay should get a bump from being the best pitcher between Pedro and Verlander/Felix (and he might end up better than them). He's had a more valuable career than his contemporaries (Sabathia, Hudson, Santana, Oswalt, Peavy, Lee) and I don't see any of them catching him.
   68. Sunday silence Posted: December 09, 2013 at 02:22 PM (#4614380)

Miller's repeated omission is a disgrace, of course, but any acknowledgements that baseball gives to him are likely to be confined to the two or three extra zeros on the average player's contract. Some of those fools probably think that Miller had nothing to do with that.


Considering that the panel included six former players (Rod Carew, Andre Dawson, Carlton Fisk, Paul Molitor, Phil Niekro and Frank Robinson), it is quite possible that one of these guys snubbed him -- despite each one personally benefiting from his work.


so what is your pt? That players should have to vote for him just because he made them more money? That doesnt sound like a hall of fame to me. It sounds like a Hall of Mercenary or Mercantile or something.

So what if a player didnt vote against him? Maybe they feel like me, that non players shouldnt be in there. No problem with managers but the higher level stuff, to me, seems like politics in a certain way.
   69. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 09, 2013 at 02:22 PM (#4614382)
Bitter Pirates fan is bitter.


Cox beat his wife. That makes him an #######. And LaRussa is so self-evidently an ####### that I don't think it really needs an explanation. Being an ####### is part of what made him such a good manager in the first place - he was willing to stand up for his players even when they were clearly and unambiguously in the wrong, and he never stopped trying to trick the umps into giving him favorable treatment.
   70. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: December 09, 2013 at 02:24 PM (#4614386)
Cox beat his wife.


And Jim Leyland's Pirates.
   71. Barnaby Jones Posted: December 09, 2013 at 02:45 PM (#4614427)
Cox beat his wife.


Not according to Cox's wife.

TROLOLOLOL
   72. bunyon Posted: December 09, 2013 at 02:52 PM (#4614433)
They are. But the waiting period is reduced to six months for those over 65.

Hence, Julio Franco's courtesy vote the year after he retired.
   73. tfbg9 Posted: December 09, 2013 at 02:58 PM (#4614441)
I'm encouraged to see Steinbrenner draw so little support. Hold that line, boys!


Yep.
   74. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 09, 2013 at 03:03 PM (#4614446)
And Jim Leyland's Pirates.


So did Lou Piniella's Reds, but I don't have any beef with him because unlike Cox, he didn't beat his wife.

I would have preferred if the Pirates had won in '92, but they didn't. The Braves played better and won fair and square. So I'll never say anything bad about Sid Bream or Francisco Cabrera or Terry Pendleton or anyone like that, because they didn't do anything to deserve it. But David Justice and Bobby Cox beat their wives, and John Smoltz is an outspoken homophobe, and they deserve to be criticized and called out for that #### - as would any Pirate (like Brian Giles or Wil Cordero) who did the same.
   75. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: December 09, 2013 at 03:14 PM (#4614454)
So did Lou Piniella's Reds, but I don't have any beef with him because unlike Cox, he didn't beat his wife.


Yes, I know. Moral Scold must morally scold old man for that one questionable thing that happened 20 years ago. I unnerstan.
   76. Dag Nabbit: secretary of the World Banana Forum Posted: December 09, 2013 at 03:15 PM (#4614455)
His playing career is notable only in that he was one of the last of the Bonus Babies (as was, interestingly, Dave Duncan).

LaRussa is one of just three 18-year-olds to play as an AL shortstop since WWII. The others are Robin Yount & A-Rod. You can put together a mighty nice stump-the-bank trivia question w/ LaRussa as the stumper. You just got to phrase it just right.
   77. jmurph Posted: December 09, 2013 at 03:18 PM (#4614457)
Silly moral scolds condemning domestic violence! Much like Jack Morris and that newfangled "run prevention," Cox didn't know that it wasn't okay to do that.
   78. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: December 09, 2013 at 03:20 PM (#4614460)
Hey, let's all pretend that one incident from 20 years ago, that no one here really knows any details about, is relevant to a case for the baseball HOF! That would be awesome. Later we can talk about drunk driving and Tony LaRussa and circle jerk about how it's terrible that Ghandi wasn't very good at managing a baseball team.

I can't stand Tony LaRussa personally, but I don't pretend that my dislike for him is anything other than that, and I don't think it's relevant to a discussion of his induction into the HOF.
   79. jmurph Posted: December 09, 2013 at 03:22 PM (#4614463)
Cox and LaRussa are both flaming ########, but they were good at their jobs and are worthy selections.


I mean it was right there in his first post.
   80. Morty Causa Posted: December 09, 2013 at 03:27 PM (#4614466)
77:

The Costanza Dictate: was I not supposed to do that? Because if Cox had known that wasn't allowed he wouldn't have done it.
   81. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 09, 2013 at 03:28 PM (#4614467)
Not according to Cox's wife.


She told the police that he hit her and then subsequently went back on her testimony, as is common with victims of domestic violence.

If there's any doubt about what happened, the fact that she answered the door for police with a visible facial trauma ought to clear that right up.

At about 10:15 p.m. on Sunday, following the Braves' 5-4 loss to the Philadelphia Phillies, Cobb County police arrested Cox after his wife, Pamela, called to report a domestic dispute. According to the police report, the Coxes had been entertaining friends when Bobby spilled a drink on the carpet of their northwest Atlanta house and Pamela made a comment about it. The report said that after the guests left, Bobby, 53, "hit her in the face with his fist," pulled her hair and called her "a #####." When they reached the house, the police reported, they heard arguing inside, where they found Bobby drunk and Pamela with the left side of her face swollen. Police reported that Bobby told them Pamela "also has been violent in the past and that he hit her in reflex response to her assault on him." -Sports Illustrated, May 15, 1995
   82. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: December 09, 2013 at 03:29 PM (#4614469)
Cox never got out of AAA as a player (mostly with the Dodgers.)

If only there were a site where you could check stuff like this, you know, so you don't accidentally make a fool of yourself by advertising you ignorance of a basic fact about a guy that was with your favorite team for 25 years. Ah, we'll get there some day.

Congrats Bobby!
   83. Sunday silence Posted: December 09, 2013 at 03:29 PM (#4614470)
Wayne Causey played one game at SS as an 18 yr. old for Balt. I suspect there maybe others, but it is an interesting factoid.
   84. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: December 09, 2013 at 03:31 PM (#4614471)
Hey Robert, you're right. I missed the cup of coffee. Linked to the minor league sheet instead of the major league sheet. You got me, man. You're so very smart. Everyone loves you.
   85. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: December 09, 2013 at 03:33 PM (#4614476)
Scold away, Vlad. I mean, if you don't take this up again right now the internet might forget. We must never forget man. It's like the Holocaust.
   86. Morty Causa Posted: December 09, 2013 at 03:38 PM (#4614481)
She told the police that he hit her and then subsequently went back on her testimony, as is common with victims of domestic violence.

Yes, yes, it is. It's also common among another class--know what I mean, nudge nudge wink wink?
   87. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: December 09, 2013 at 03:39 PM (#4614483)
They might mention that LaRussa played in the majors as an afterthought - "after his nondescript playing career".

His playing career is notable only in that he was one of the last of the Bonus Babies (as was, interestingly, Dave Duncan).

LaRussa appeared in Early Wynn's 300th victory. (so did Charlie Lau and Hawk Harrelson)
   88. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: December 09, 2013 at 03:39 PM (#4614484)
Hey Robert, you're right. I missed the cup of coffee.

Well it was more like a keg of coffee but yeah.

As far as the battery goes, yeah, it's a terrible thing. He most likely did it. Unfortunately people can do some pretty bad things when they are drunk. But it's been like twenty years, it doesn't seem to be a habit. Nobody died. He's just the devil forever? Everybody has their good and bad days. I'm not casting the first stone, that's for sure.
   89. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 09, 2013 at 03:40 PM (#4614487)
Scold away, Vlad. I mean, if you don't take this up again right now the internet might forget. We must never forget man. It's like the Holocaust.


Jesus. All I said was that he deserved to get in even though he was an #######, and you started jumping all over me.

He isn't the first ####### to get into the Hall, and he probably won't be the last, either.
   90. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: December 09, 2013 at 03:44 PM (#4614492)
Jesus. All I said was that he deserved to get in even though he was an #######, and you started jumping all over me.


It just gets old that every time there's a discussion about Cox someone feels the need to dredge up a domestic complaint from 20 years ago that was walked back by the alleged victim. I think that if Bobby Cox was really a wife beater, if he really committed domestic violence against women with any degree of frequency, we'd have heard something other than this one thing since then. A couple got drunk and argued and it got ugly. That's bad. They sorted it out without going through the courts. That's good. I think it's pretty well a dead horse of a subject at this point.
   91. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 09, 2013 at 03:44 PM (#4614493)
But it's been like twenty years, it doesn't seem to be a habit.


Well, not necessarily.

A report filed by Gil Padilla, a Cobb County police officer, said that Cox had struck his wife before.

Pam Cox "stated this has occurred many times before, but [she] never called the police because of possible media attention" and the effect on their children, the report said.

The manager initially denied that any of the couple's arguments -- which he said had intensified in the last few months -- involved violence. Pressed about the discrepancy with the police report, he later said that two years into their 18-year marriage, his wife and he had exchanged slaps. -Frank Fitzpatrick, The Baltimore Sun, May 9, 1995
   92. Steve Treder Posted: December 09, 2013 at 03:45 PM (#4614496)
Well it was more like a keg of coffee but yeah.

Yeah, I love the "cup of coffee" thing. He was a first-string player with nearly 500 PAs in one season, and a utility player with over 200 PAs in a second season. If that's a cup of coffee, John Paciorek had a molecule of coffee.
   93. Morty Causa Posted: December 09, 2013 at 03:47 PM (#4614498)
Cox's OPS+ is 88--sub-par but not shamefully so for a quality third baseman. I guess the context make it not so bad. This was the late '60s (most of his time is in '68) and it was Yankee Stadium and the AL.
   94. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: December 09, 2013 at 03:56 PM (#4614503)
Well, not necessarily.


And? I'm not denying that the man was flawed and human. I'm just questioning* why it's relevant to a discussion of his baseball resume. I know you caveated it off in your original comment, but why bring it up at all? Men of Bobby Cox' generation didn't live by our modern standards of domestic violence? True. Why does it matter here? It just seems like a way to sneak a complaint into a conversation we all know has not baseball related drawbacks. If we eliminated every athlete who ever had a behavior or incident that might be questionable by modern standards of liberal moral orthodoxy we'd have very, very few athletic "heroes."

(Ray, for the record, this is what it looks like when I complain about a topic being brought up. Take notes.)
   95. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 09, 2013 at 04:02 PM (#4614506)
I know you caveated it off in your original comment, but why bring it up at all?


Because I'm happy for Torre to get in, and not really happy for LaRussa or Cox, even though I think they're deserving and I probably would've voted for them if I'd had a vote. I was drawing a distinction there.

I didn't bring up the wife-beating thing at all until you accused me of being salty over the '92 NLCS, which, seriously? I was in junior high school.

It just seems like a way to sneak a complaint into a conversation we all know has not baseball related drawbacks.


While I wasn't going to bring the domestic violence thing up until you pried the can of worms open, if someone had wanted to do that, I think they would've been justified. There's the character clause in the voting guidelines, after all, and people are being kept out of the Hall over drug use that's (in my opinion, anyway) much less serious than domestic violence.
   96. Misirlou is on hiding to nowhere Posted: December 09, 2013 at 04:04 PM (#4614511)
Wayne Causey played one game at SS as an 18 yr. old for Balt. I suspect there maybe others, but it is an interesting factoid.


According to BBREF, there were 11. Now, I'm not going to check, but it's possible some played in their age 18 season, but were really 19, but This guy played 5 games at SS (2 starts), as a 16 YO for the 1955 A's. The final game of his career came 2 days before his 17th birthday.

edit: The 1955 A's actually had two 18 YO SS. Clete Boyer played 12 games, started 5. Altogether, there were five 18 YO SS in the AL in 1955.
   97. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: December 09, 2013 at 04:06 PM (#4614515)
if someone had wanted to do that, I think they would've been justified.

If? It's the third comment in this thread. It's the third comment in every thread about Bobby Cox. Always a case of little people trying to feel bigger. More sad than anything.
   98. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 09, 2013 at 04:21 PM (#4614529)
Always a case of little people trying to feel bigger.


People who didn't beat their wives/girlfriends are, like, axiomatically bigger than people who did. That's just how it is.
   99. OsunaSakata Posted: December 09, 2013 at 04:25 PM (#4614535)
LaRussa is one of just three 18-year-olds to play as an AL shortstop since WWII. The others are Robin Yount & A-Rod. You can put together a mighty nice stump-the-bank trivia question w/ LaRussa as the stumper. You just got to phrase it just right.


Two Hall of Famers (and one potential HOFer) started at least 10 games at shortstop as an 18-year-old. Who are they?
   100. AROM Posted: December 09, 2013 at 04:27 PM (#4614537)
I've got 17 players meeting these criteria: 1945+, Age 18 or less, played at least 1 game as a shortstop. Some may have had their 19th birthday in what is called their age 18 season, but we have a 16 year old and a 17 year old. I checked Alfredo Griffin, he did not turn 19 until after the season.

Nice trivia question, but it doesn't work. Say "played at least 14 games as an 18 year old shortstop after 1960" and you'd have LaRussa, Yount, and A-Rod.
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