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Tuesday, November 20, 2012

Elliott: Toronto Blue Jays to name John Gibbons manager

That “crest of excitement” just got crustier…uhh, crestier!!

Gibbons, who managed the Blue Jays for parts of five seasons from 2004 to 2008, will be introduced Tuesday morning as their next manager.

At the general managers meeting in Indian Wells, Calif., Blue Jays general manager Alex Anthopoulos said he was “looking for someone he could work with, someone his staff could work with, someone who was good for the city, good for the whole country.”

Going on a we-need-to-know-you-to-hire-you basis we figured the only people Anthopoulos knew with previous managerial experience were Frank Robinson from their days together with the Montreal Expos, plus Cito Gaston, bench coach Don Wakamatsu, and John Farrell from his GM days.

We forgot about Anthouplous’ time as an assistant GM, under J.P. Ricciardi. Anthopoulos and Gibbons were close friends, working well together.

...The Jays have been riding a crest of excitement and popularity since the 12-player deal with the Miami Marlins brought in shortstop Jose Reyes, right-hander Josh Johnson, lefty Mark Buehrle, catcher John Buck and utility man Emilio Bonifacio. The Jays also have signed free-agent outfielder Melky Cabrera.

Both deals were finalized on Monday.

Repoz Posted: November 20, 2012 at 06:35 AM | 54 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: blue jays

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Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. JJ1986 Posted: November 20, 2012 at 09:10 AM (#4306591)
Was Gibbons the one who challenged a player to fight him?
   2. snowles Posted: November 20, 2012 at 09:41 AM (#4306601)
Yes, yes he was, with Shea Hillenbrand. He also got into it with Ted Lilly, and was the manager during the whole 'sinking ship' episode. That said, I am quite pleased with Gibbons as a manager and look forward to Boomhauer being back in the dugout, if it's indeed true.
   3. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: November 20, 2012 at 09:55 AM (#4306606)
First they recycle Cito, now this. I'm guessing Carlos Tosca wasn't available?
   4. Matthew E Posted: November 20, 2012 at 09:56 AM (#4306607)
I think they should have hung on to Gibbons last time, so I'm pleased to see him back. Obviously there are no guarantees, but I'm more enthusiastic about him than about any of the other bozons and yipyops who've been suggested for the position.
   5. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: November 20, 2012 at 10:02 AM (#4306610)
Yes, yes he was, with Shea Hillenbrand.


In fairness, who hasn't wanted to punch Shea Hillenbrand in the face at one time or another?
   6. The_Ex Posted: November 20, 2012 at 10:10 AM (#4306614)
Carlos Tosca you say....from Elliott's story...

Gibbons replaced fired manager Carlos Tosca in 2004. Tosca also inquired about returning as the Jays manager.

   7. Matthew E Posted: November 20, 2012 at 10:12 AM (#4306617)
Poor Carlos Tosca.
   8. RJ in TO Posted: November 20, 2012 at 10:35 AM (#4306627)
I can't say I'm thrilled with this move, but I suppose it could have been worse.
   9. AROM Posted: November 20, 2012 at 10:44 AM (#4306634)
In fairness, who hasn't wanted to punch Shea Hillenbrand in the face at one time or another?


Certainly anyone who paid to watch the 2007 Angels.
   10. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: November 20, 2012 at 10:48 AM (#4306636)
MLBTR references Gibbons having incidents with Hillenbrand ("sinking ship", almost fought in the dugout) and Lilly (challenged him on the mound when he was yanked), which I remember, but also one with David Bush. What was that?
   11. Rants Mulliniks Posted: November 20, 2012 at 10:52 AM (#4306638)
What an odd signing. I never cared for Gibbons much, he was too bump-on-loggish for me. His teams also underperformed their pythag. record every year during his first go round, FWIW.
   12. Greg K Posted: November 20, 2012 at 10:56 AM (#4306642)
MLBTR references Gibbons having incidents with Hillenbrand ("sinking ship", almost fought in the dugout) and Lilly (challenged him on the mound when he was yanked), which I remember, but also one with David Bush. What was that?

Going by my terrible memory, but I believe he pulled Bush from a game when Bush thought he shouldn't have. Yelling match in the dugout ensued.

It's entirely possible I'm wrong on this, but that's my fuzzy recollection.
   13. AROM Posted: November 20, 2012 at 10:56 AM (#4306643)
but also one with David Bush. What was that?


A disagreement about troop levels in Iraq and medicare prescription benefits. No wait, wrong country, wrong Bush.
   14. RJ in TO Posted: November 20, 2012 at 10:58 AM (#4306645)
What an odd signing. I never cared for Gibbons much, he was too bump-on-loggish for me. His teams also underperformed their pythag. record every year during his first go round, FWIW.

That was a Jays tradition under Ricciardi. It wasn't something specific to Gibbons.
   15. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 20, 2012 at 11:14 AM (#4306651)
The pool of managers is incredibly bad right now. I would say historically so, as despite all of the statistical breakthroughs in the past generation, managers are horribly risk-averse.
   16. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: November 20, 2012 at 11:18 AM (#4306653)
Is he really the guy you want for a team that has to integrate a bunch of significant new players? I would have thought a laid back, Joe Torre type would be better.
   17. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: November 20, 2012 at 11:27 AM (#4306659)
The pool of managers is incredibly bad right now. I would say historically so, as despite all of the statistical breakthroughs in the past generation, managers are horribly risk-averse.

In other words, the pool of managers is the same as it's always been, although theoretically there could be managers now who make smarter decisions than they did in the 80s.
   18. RJ in TO Posted: November 20, 2012 at 11:28 AM (#4306660)
Is he really the guy you want for a team that has to integrate a bunch of significant new players? I would have thought a laid back, Joe Torre type would be better.

Under Farrell, the Jays had a ton of (especially younger) players make a ton of really, really dumb mistakes, and never seemed to learn from them, as Farrell never really seemed to care. I guess the idea is to have Gibbons beat the stupid out of them.
   19. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 20, 2012 at 11:30 AM (#4306662)
In other words, the pool of managers is the same as it's always been, although theoretically there could be managers now who make smarter decisions than they did in the 80s.


Those are other words indeed.

Never before have managers been this collectively risk-averse.
   20. RJ in TO Posted: November 20, 2012 at 11:32 AM (#4306663)
Never before have managers been this collectively risk-averse.

Out of curiosity, what do you base this statement on?
   21. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 20, 2012 at 11:37 AM (#4306668)
Out of curiosity, what do you base this statement on?


A working knowledge of baseball history, including a particular interest in managers throughout it.

I don't have a WAR-type stat on it, if that's what you're asking.
   22. zack Posted: November 20, 2012 at 11:39 AM (#4306671)
I would say historically so, as despite all of the statistical breakthroughs in the past generation, managers are horribly risk-averse.


And this has nothing to do with the fact that your beliefs about managers and risk-aversion have developed under this generation. How did you feel about Connie Mack's willingness to take risks? Gil Hodges?
   23. RJ in TO Posted: November 20, 2012 at 11:41 AM (#4306673)
A working knowledge of baseball history, including a particular interest in managers throughout it.

Congratulations on providing a remarkably useless response.

I don't have a WAR-type stat on it, if that's what you're asking.

I'm asking about specific behaviors. What do you think has changed the most in terms of how they're managing things? How do you think those behaviors could be improved? What are the areas where you think they could gain the most by returning to the methods used by their predecessors?
   24. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 20, 2012 at 11:47 AM (#4306681)
Congratulations on providing a remarkably useless response.


I'm withdrawing from this conversation.
   25. zack Posted: November 20, 2012 at 11:49 AM (#4306684)
Also so my stupidity does not go unmarked, I should note that I didn't realize Gibbons and Ferrell were different people.
   26. Hello Rusty Kuntz, Goodbye Rusty Cars Posted: November 20, 2012 at 11:55 AM (#4306688)
Gibbons and Ferrell were different people


Out of curiosity, what do you base this statement on?
   27. formerly dp Posted: November 20, 2012 at 12:03 PM (#4306702)
This seems like the most boring choice they could have possibly made.
   28. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: November 20, 2012 at 12:09 PM (#4306709)
This seems like the most boring choice they could have possibly made.

No, that would be Ken Macha.
   29. formerly dp Posted: November 20, 2012 at 12:12 PM (#4306714)
No, that would be Ken Macha.
Good point, but Gibbons has already managed in Toronto, making the quantity more known. They were also considering Art Howe, right?
   30. Depressoteric Posted: November 20, 2012 at 12:13 PM (#4306715)
Everything old is new again.
   31. RJ in TO Posted: November 20, 2012 at 12:13 PM (#4306716)
They were also considering Art Howe, right?

Art Howe had expressed interest in the position. I don't know if they were actually considering him.
   32. formerly dp Posted: November 20, 2012 at 12:27 PM (#4306735)
Art Howe had expressed interest in the position. I don't know if they were actually considering him.
My bad. Well, he would have been more boring. I think this may be in part to balance the excitement machine that is Jose Reyes.
   33. AROM Posted: November 20, 2012 at 12:41 PM (#4306753)
Some managing trends over the last 30 years in the AL:

Sacrifice hits and intentional walks are down slightly. That's even with the AL teams now playing 10 or so games per year using NL rules. That's a sign of progress in stats that are under the elective control of a manager. Stolen base percentages are up - indicating recognition of the value of an out, and not allowing low percentage runners to attempt them.

The big trend in both leagues though is the use of pitchers. Almost nobody is allowed to throw more than 120 pitches, ever, and most starts don't even get to that level. Lots more relievers, and more pitching changes. Is this trend a risk-averse strategy to avoid being blamed for injuries? Or more from the knowledge of how few starters, in the 3rd-4th time through the lineup, are more effective than middle inning relievers?

The actions of managers have certainly changed.
   34. Moloka'i Three-Finger Brown (Declino DeShields) Posted: November 20, 2012 at 12:58 PM (#4306765)
Art Howe had expressed interest in the position.


I think every ex-manager over the past generation-and-a-half expressed interest, except perhaps the dead ones (and I don't have inside information on that). The Jays search even managed to perpetuate the statheady apologia for Manny Acta, which I had assumed would need a year or so to reemerge.
   35. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: November 20, 2012 at 01:22 PM (#4306796)

Stolen base percentages are up - indicating recognition of the value of an out, and not allowing low percentage runners to attempt them.

Are stolen base attempts down as well, or are percentages just higher? I'm wondering whether this is more of an indication that pitchers/catchers are getting worse at preventing the running game, or an indication that teams are actually being more selective in when they attempt to steal.
   36. Hit by Pitch Posted: November 20, 2012 at 01:23 PM (#4306798)
I recall Gibby playing Glaus at SS for a few games. That move was anything put risk averse. Generally though Ray is correct managers are way more conservative today, especially when it comes to base running and using starting pitchers.
   37. Jim (jimmuscomp) Posted: November 20, 2012 at 01:41 PM (#4306806)
Also so my stupidity does not go unmarked, I should note that I didn't realize Gibbons and Ferrell were different people.


Totally agree. Is this the same guy that lied about being a veteran?

The Jays have had some weird managers...
   38. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: November 20, 2012 at 01:46 PM (#4306810)
I think it is important to note the difference between risk-aversion and doing high-risk things. For example, if a manager is thinking about putting in a LOOGY to get out a tough lefty, but he doesn't know that the LOOGY has trouble with this specific hitter, then there is a difference between what the manager perceives as low-risk (getting the lefty out with a LOOGY) and the actual risk (this particular matchup is a bad one for the pitcher).

Starting pitchers generally throw fewer innings per start than they did in, say, the 1970s, but I don't think 1970s teams thought they were taking a big risk in doing so. This does not make managers of the 1970s less "risk averse"; rather, it makes them less aware of the risk they were taking.
   39. Matthew E Posted: November 20, 2012 at 01:46 PM (#4306811)
Is this the same guy that lied about being a veteran?
That was Tim Johnson.
   40. Paul D(uda) Posted: November 20, 2012 at 02:06 PM (#4306835)

So, this continues the Jays streak of having only ever hired Bobby Cox as manager who'd managed somewhere else, correct?
   41. Hello Rusty Kuntz, Goodbye Rusty Cars Posted: November 20, 2012 at 02:09 PM (#4306837)

So, this continues the Jays streak of having only ever hired Bobby Cox as manager who'd managed somewhere else, correct?


Jim Fregosi too.
   42. Paul D(uda) Posted: November 20, 2012 at 02:18 PM (#4306839)

Ah, I'd forgotten about Fregosi, thanks.
   43. Greg K Posted: November 20, 2012 at 02:45 PM (#4306859)
I think it is important to note the difference between risk-aversion and doing high-risk things.

In order to manage risk we must first understand risk. How do you spot risk? How do you avoid risk and what makes it so risky?
   44. Gwyn Posted: November 20, 2012 at 02:54 PM (#4306864)
Going by my terrible memory, but I believe he pulled Bush from a game when Bush thought he shouldn't have. Yelling match in the dugout ensued.

Pretty sure JP sent Bush to AAA the next day too.
   45. Non-Youkilidian Geometry Posted: November 20, 2012 at 02:56 PM (#4306868)
The Jays are taking the hipster approach -- they've hired Gibbons to manage again, but this time they're doing it ironically.
   46. AROM Posted: November 20, 2012 at 03:00 PM (#4306871)
Are stolen base attempts down as well, or are percentages just higher? I'm wondering whether this is more of an indication that pitchers/catchers are getting worse at preventing the running game, or an indication that teams are actually being more selective in when they attempt to steal.


As for the cause it could be any of those. But the trend shows that CS are down, SB went down as well, compared to what we saw in the 80s. In the last few years SB are going up without an increase in CS.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB/bat.shtml
   47. Rants Mulliniks Posted: November 20, 2012 at 03:01 PM (#4306872)
but this time they're doing it ironically.


If he shows up to spring training sporting a moustache we'll have our confirmation.
   48. Matthew E Posted: November 20, 2012 at 03:22 PM (#4306888)
Blue Jays Managers

C: John Gibbons, Buck Martinez
1B: Gene Tenace
2B: Roy Hartsfield, Jimy Williams
SS: Jim Fregosi, Bobby Mattick
3B: Bobby Cox, Tim Johnson
OF: Cito Gaston, Carlos Tosca, Mel Queen
P: John Farrell
   49. RJ in TO Posted: November 20, 2012 at 03:44 PM (#4306910)
Mel Queen actually qualifies as both a pitcher and outfielder.
   50. Matthew E Posted: November 20, 2012 at 03:53 PM (#4306919)
Yeah, but I figured I needed him as an outfielder. Otherwise I would have had to move one of the many mediocre infielders out of position.
   51. Bug Selig Posted: November 20, 2012 at 06:07 PM (#4307068)
Otherwise I would have had to move one of the many mediocre infielders out of position.


Tim Johnson has many exciting stories about his days as an outfielder. And an astronaut.
   52. Belfry Bob Posted: November 20, 2012 at 08:13 PM (#4307155)
Mel Queen actually qualifies as both a pitcher and outfielder.


And a dessert topping!
   53. bobm Posted: November 20, 2012 at 09:31 PM (#4307192)
The big trend in both leagues though is the use of pitchers. Almost nobody is allowed to throw more than 120 pitches, ever, and most starts don't even get to that level.


Also, few starters are pulled early, ie after 20-40 pitches. The starter job seems now to be 5-7 innings of 95-110 pitches, with little adjustment for performance.
   54. radioman Posted: November 20, 2012 at 11:40 PM (#4307248)
Also, few starters are pulled early, ie after 20-40 pitches. The starter job seems now to be 5-7 innings of 95-110 pitches, with little adjustment for performance


I've never thought of it that way and am about to check the actual numbers, but that statement feels about right.

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