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Wednesday, September 28, 2011

TRACER: Bill Veeck’s Satchel Paige vs Joe Dimaggio anecdote

Bill Veeck was known for telling some wonderful tales and so I decided to see if one of his tales was actually true.

Joe Dimaggio had trouble hitting Satchel Paige, partly-I suppose-because Satch made him wait. Satch once committed the ultimate insult of walking a man deliberately to get at Joe, and then getting Joe to pop out. It was DiMaggio’s temperament to be a solid professional, to show no emotion, but you knew that Joe burned inwardly at the gratuitous slap and was hurting to get back at Satch. And so Satch would fiddle around on the mound until he saw he had Joe anxious, then he’d give him the three loop-de-loop windups and have Joe ready to catch the ball in his teeth and spit it out by the time it got the plate. Page 238 Hustler’s Handbook Ivan R. Dee edition

So did Paige ever IBB walk a player to get to Joe and how did Joe do against Paige?

Paige shows up in the major leagues in 1948 and plays for Veeck’s Indians until 1949. He then shows up with Veeck’s Browns in 1951 which is also Joe’s last season. So we have three seasons in which Paige was in the AL and Dimaggio was playing.

In 1948 Paige faces the Yankees 5 times for a total of 7.2 innings. Fortunately we have PBP for all 5 of those games. So did it happen in 1948? Nope. Paige faced Dimaggio twice and got him to fly out and strike out (though Joe did reach base on that strikeout) . The strikeout was to lead off the inning and the flyout did not happen after a walk. In fact he didn’t walk anybody in that game and he only walked one Yankee and that was in a game in which he didn’t face Dimaggio.

In 1949 Paige faced the Yankees 4 times for a total of 9 and a third innings. That year, according to Retrosheet, Paige had no IBB against the Yankees but he did have 3 walks against them. So perhaps one of those was of the unintentional intentional variety. Well, in Satch’s only start against the Yankees Dimaggio did not play and that was the game in which Paige gave up his 3 walks. So we definitely know it didn’t happen this year. Joe was 0-3 against Paige this year with a pop out, fly out, and a strike out. One of the outs had Joe as the leadoff hitter of the inning while the other two outs came after a double play and a flyout.

So all we have left is 1951 and in that year Paige faces the Yankees 3 times for a total of 14 and a third innings. Unfortunately Retrosheet has only PBP for two of the three games against the Yankees that year. Paige does give up 7 walks to the Yankees this year though none of them are recorded as IBB. Perhaps some of them were since it appears Retrosheet has none of his walks recorded as IBB for that year. In Paige’s first start he gives up 5 walks but Dimaggio did not play that day. In their final matchup of the season Dimaggio faces him once and hits into a fielder’s choice. So that just leaves us with the one game in which we only have the boxscore. In that game Paige pitches 4.1 innings and gives up one walk. Unfortunately the other two Browns’ pitchers give up 4 walks so there are a ton of walks to go around. Woodling batted in front of Dimaggio and he did draw a walk. I believe Paige faced him Joe 2 times in that game. So we’ll have to go to the newspapers to find out and the newspapers reveai that Woodling was walked by Pillette in the 4th and not by Paige. Paige walked Joe Collins who subbed for Johnny Mize in the 6th spot while Joe Dimaggio was in the 4th spot. Dimaggio goes 0-2 against Paige in that game and might have struck him out once or twice.

So Joe never faced Paige during the regular season after somebody else had been walked, intentionally or otherwise. Perhaps it happened during spring training. The Yankees held their Spring Training in St. Pete’s during this era except for 1951 when they played in Phoenix. The Indians after WWII moved out to Arizona so it is unlikely that Paige and Dimaggio faced each other when Paige was an Indian. The Browns it appears held their spring training in Burbank, CA in 1951. So it doesn’t appear that his could have happened during spring training.

I’m not sure if they still had exhibition games in the late 40’s and early 50’s or if Veeck heard about some barnstorming game from the 30’s but it appears this part of the story is false.

But on the other hand Dimaggio was 0-8 against Paige so Bill Veeck was very much correct in saying Joe wasn’t very good against Paige.

McCoy Posted: September 28, 2011 at 07:40 PM | 9 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: baseball geeks, cardinals, hall of fame, history, indians, negro leagues, orioles, yankees

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   1. McCoy Posted: September 28, 2011 at 08:38 PM (#3941472)
Apparently I screwed up the "after the break" formatting and it appears some stuff got cut off.

This was the rest of it:

Doing some digging I find that Joe Dimaggio faced Paige in 1936 in a PCL All Star squad vs Paige and some local semi-pro black ballplayers. Dimaggio went 1-4 against Paige in that game and his single occurred in the 9th immediately after a single by Dick Bartell.

I also took a look at Paige and Feller's barnstorming squads of 1946-1947 and it doesn't appear that Dimaggio took part in that. Which is unfortunate because it appears that Bill Veeck kept a close eye on those exhibition games since immediately after the paragraphs in which he talks about Dimaggio he talks about Mickey Vernon owning Paige and he traces it back to their times facing each other during these barnstorming games.

So perhaps it happened in those other 3 AB.

Finally, I remembered that over on Retrosheet their is a very comprehensive list of inseason exhibition games. So I checked that list and I discover that the Yankees did not play the Browns nor the Indians during the seasons that Paige was there but in 1950 the Yankees played the Kansas City Blues. That season Paige was playing for the Philadelphia Stars of the Negro Leagues. The Blues were a farm team of the Yankees so it appears unlikely that this could have happened from 1948 to 1951.
   2. Run Joe Run Posted: September 28, 2011 at 09:58 PM (#3941576)
Brilliant research. Thank you.
   3. charityslave is thinking about baseball Posted: September 28, 2011 at 11:06 PM (#3941666)
Veeck got this story straight from Satchel Paige, so you know it's true.

Appropos of Satchel stories, my local newspaper (the formidable Daily Advertiser) recently ran a piece about a barnstarming game that Paige's team played in my town (Lafayette, LA) in the fifties. It apparently was pretty big doings for the Cajun Capitol, and when word got out that Satch and the team were eating at a local restaraunt, people began to flock there. This being Louisiana in the fifties, the team was eating out of sight of the white customers in the "colored only" attachment to the building. According to the eyewitness who was the subject of the interview, so many prominent people went into the segregated area to get Satchel's autograph that eventually the doors were thrown open, and for that night anyway, blacks and whites broke bread in the same room. Probably apocryphal, but a great story otherwise.
   4. Steve Treder Posted: September 28, 2011 at 11:13 PM (#3941690)
Veeck got this story straight from Satchel Paige, so you know it's true.

RDF
   5. Bob Evans Posted: September 28, 2011 at 11:24 PM (#3941754)
Satch and the team were eating at a local restaraunt

Any report on whether he avoided fried foods?
   6. Moeball Posted: September 29, 2011 at 12:41 AM (#3942347)
Speaking of Satch, I've always wondered what led to the famous comeback stunt in 1965:

1) Satch was 59 or 60 at the time depending on which birth certificate was believed
2) He did, in fact, pitch 3 shutout innings in a game against the Red Sox
3) The only player for the Sox to get a hit against him was a young outfielder you may have heard of who was a pretty fair hitter (Yaz).

Even just being a publicity stunt, the guy could still get major league hitters out at an age when he should only have been playing "Old Timers" games.

Keep this in mind - Satchel pitched in the "integrated" major leagues off and on between 1948 and 1965. His W-L record was a modest 28-31 but his ERA was a respectable 3.29.

Here's the thing - how many pitchers do you know of who could pitch almost 500 innings with an ERA under 3.3 - between the ages of, say, 42 and 60? Last time I checked, those aren't the prime years for a pitcher.

Makes me really wonder just how good he must have been in his prime when he was in his 20s and 30s? He must have been absolutely unhittable...
   7. McCoy Posted: September 29, 2011 at 01:19 AM (#3942661)
Anyone have any access to any west coast historical newspapers to see if they can find any details in that 1936 game?
   8. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: September 29, 2011 at 01:34 AM (#3942784)
Here's the thing - how many pitchers do you know of who could pitch almost 500 innings with an ERA under 3.3 - between the ages of, say, 42 and 60? Last time I checked, those aren't the prime years for a pitcher.

Well, yes, but they're all knuckleballers.
   9. charityslave is thinking about baseball Posted: September 29, 2011 at 05:10 AM (#3944588)
Any report on whether he avoided fried foods?


You know as well as I do that fried foods angry up the blood and should be avoided!

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