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Wednesday, August 16, 2017

Travis d’Arnaud’s position in Wednesday’s box score read “3B-2B-3B-2B-3B-2B-3B-2B-3B-2B-3B-2B-3B-2B-3B-2B-3B-2B”

strange day for a backup catcher

Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: August 16, 2017 at 11:37 PM | 42 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: mets

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   1. Rennie's Tenet Posted: August 17, 2017 at 08:01 AM (#5515091)
So the Pirates' obsession with utility infielders has finally resulted in a league-wide shortage?
   2. Jose is an Absurd Doubles Machine Posted: August 17, 2017 at 08:10 AM (#5515096)
Not to nitpick but wouldn't Asdrubal Cabrera's line look similarly crazy?
   3. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: August 17, 2017 at 08:10 AM (#5515097)
That's certainly a pain for someone scoring the game, but I've always had a soft spot for shifting positions to get optimal usage. I still think more teams should swap their LOOGY and ROOGY from left or right field rather than bringing in a brand new pitcher.
   4. PreservedFish Posted: August 17, 2017 at 08:33 AM (#5515108)
I think it's cool.
   5. Jose is an Absurd Doubles Machine Posted: August 17, 2017 at 08:35 AM (#5515110)
I remember Jimy Williams doing it with Damon Buford (I think, him or Darren Lewis, I always get them confused) in an extra inning game at Fenway one time. It was pretty amusing to see Buford/Lewis running back and forth between positions for an inning. It must have been a riot to watch poor D'Arnaud have to keep doing it for nine innings.
   6. Accent Shallow is doin' the catapult Posted: August 17, 2017 at 08:42 AM (#5515115)
Not to nitpick but wouldn't Asdrubal Cabrera's line look similarly crazy?


Yes. Unlike d'Arnaud, he can handle both of those positions, though.
   7. Random Transaction Generator Posted: August 17, 2017 at 08:46 AM (#5515117)
May 2nd, 1988 - Toronto Blue Jays @ Seattle Mariners

Kelly Gruber 2B-3B-2B-3B-2B-3B-2B-3B-2B-3B-2B-3B-2B-3B-2B-3B-2B-3B-2B
Cecil Fielder 3B-2B-3B-2B-3B-2B-3B-2B-3B-2B-3B-2B-3B-2B-3B-2B-3B-2B-3B
   8. mathesond Posted: August 17, 2017 at 08:53 AM (#5515127)
#&, my favourite part of that is that Fielder was in the field, and not playing 1B. Who knew he was more athletic than McGriff?
   9. PreservedFish Posted: August 17, 2017 at 08:53 AM (#5515128)
Any enterprising sabermetricians want to guess on the possible benefit to doing this over the course of an entire season? Let's say you had Daniel Murphy (bad) and Josh Harrison (good) starting every day and alternating like this constantly.
   10. The_Ex Posted: August 17, 2017 at 08:53 AM (#5515129)
On yesterdays baseball tonight podcast Erik Karabell mentioned that Anthony Rizzo qualifies as a second baseman for fantasy because he has moved there ten times this season, although the inning total at 2B is around four.
   11. Greg Pope Posted: August 17, 2017 at 08:57 AM (#5515131)
On yesterdays baseball tonight podcast Erik Karabell mentioned that Anthony Rizzo qualifies as a second baseman for fantasy because he has moved there ten times this season, although the inning total at 2B is around four.

I wish my fantasy site had an option for "minimum 1 inning to count as a game played" or something like that. Rizzo at second is a joke.
   12. Random Transaction Generator Posted: August 17, 2017 at 08:57 AM (#5515132)
On yesterdays baseball tonight podcast Erik Karabell mentioned that Anthony Rizzo qualifies as a second baseman for fantasy because he has moved there ten times this season, although the inning total at 2B is around four.


Russell Martin (if he wasn't injured) would qualify at 3B now (and has 77 innings there). And it should be pointed out that he has a 1.000 fielding percentage, has 10 assists, and has started a double play.
   13. Bote Man Posted: August 17, 2017 at 09:10 AM (#5515138)
This extreme number of shifts points out the cumbersome nature of this notation. It was pointed out to me that the player's position must be recorded <somewhere> for scoring purposes, but is it necessary to note each and every shift in the box score such that it breaks the table layout? Can't this information be relegated to the notes, just like Home Runs, Wild Pitches, and other items?

I mean, is it reasonable to expect interested parties to sit there and count how many times "2B" appears in that string to figure out if d'Arnaud or Cabrera made an error at 2B? This is crazy talk!
   14. BDC Posted: August 17, 2017 at 09:11 AM (#5515139)
As Bote Man points out , with current shift strategies, many a third baseman is constantly moving over to play a deep-left 2B, or alternatively to straightaway shortstop. In that respect, this kind of swapping looks more normal now than it would have in 1988, though doing it to "hide" d'Arnaud is obviously a unique and fun element.

   15. Rally Posted: August 17, 2017 at 09:16 AM (#5515141)
He might qualify there, but what are the odds you'd ever want him at third? You'd have to have a fantasy team with a total of 3 catchers who are all better hitters than your best available third baseman.

There are 23 third baseman (5% of games at position) who qualify for the batting title with an OPS+ of 100 or greater. Only 4 catchers meet the same criteria, and only 5 catchers are even qualified for the batting title.
   16. DavidFoss Posted: August 17, 2017 at 09:30 AM (#5515158)
Not to nitpick but wouldn't Asdrubal Cabrera's line look similarly crazy?

It was. The bb-ref box score is up:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/NYN/NYN201708160.shtml

The play-by-play is pretty detailed. Was there a short delay for each switch or was it like they were playing a zone defense?
   17. Jose is an Absurd Doubles Machine Posted: August 17, 2017 at 09:58 AM (#5515185)
This extreme number of shifts points out the cumbersome nature of this notation. It was pointed out to me that the player's position must be recorded <somewhere> for scoring purposes, but is it necessary to note each and every shift in the box score such that it breaks the table layout? Can't this information be relegated to the notes, just like Home Runs, Wild Pitches, and other items?


I believe the rules actually specify that a player who shifts is deemed to still be playing his position but someone doing what D'Arnaud/Cabrera did are actually changing positions. I can't find it (villageidiom is our resident rule book searcher) but I remember seeing it somewhere.

EDIT: Found it!

10.03 OFFICIAL SCORE REPORT (ADDITIONAL RULES)
(a) In compiling the official score report, the official scorer shall list each player’s
name and fielding position, or positions, in the order in which the player batted, or
would have batted if the game ended before the player came to bat.
Rule 10.03(a) Comment: When a player does not exchange positions with another fielder
but is merely placed in a different spot for a particular batter (for example, if a second baseman goes
to the outfield to form a four-man outfield, or if a third baseman moves to a position between the shortstop
and second baseman), the official scorer should not list this as a new position.
   18. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: August 17, 2017 at 09:58 AM (#5515186)
I'll still never get the image of Pujols playing 2B (straight up, no shift) for an inning out of my head. It kind of looked like a Dad playing the field in a LL game.
   19. Random Transaction Generator Posted: August 17, 2017 at 10:23 AM (#5515203)
[Martin] might qualify there, but what are the odds you'd ever want him at third? You'd have to have a fantasy team with a total of 3 catchers who are all better hitters than your best available third baseman.


If you had one or two infielders injured you might use him at 3B for a week instead of going after a free agent or making a trade.
   20. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: August 17, 2017 at 10:40 AM (#5515219)
#&, my favourite part of that is that Fielder was in the field, and not playing 1B. Who knew he was more athletic than McGriff?

Well, he was at least more right-handed than McGriff.
   21. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: August 17, 2017 at 10:42 AM (#5515221)
Weren't people just complaining about pace of play?
   22. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: August 17, 2017 at 11:50 AM (#5515298)
Was there a short delay for each switch or was it like they were playing a zone defense?


Nope, just hustling across the diamond between batters (I was there.)
   23. PreservedFish Posted: August 17, 2017 at 11:55 AM (#5515302)
Did they keep Cabrera at 2B whenever there was a runner on first, regardless of the hitter's handedness?
   24. wjones Posted: August 17, 2017 at 12:22 PM (#5515341)
IIRC, Bobby Cox was interviewed after Game 7 of the NLCS (The Sid Bream slide game), and Cox said if Bream had been thrown out he would have been forced to use Gant and Pendleton in such a manner between third and second in extra innings. Cabrera would have gone to first, Brian Hunter to left. Would have been interesting to see such in a Game 7 in the postseason.
   25. mathesond Posted: August 17, 2017 at 12:26 PM (#5515346)
#20 - Ah yes, hadn't thought of that.
   26. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: August 17, 2017 at 01:05 PM (#5515389)
Although there are of course any number of left-handed fielders, McGriff included, that you would probably rather have at 2B/3B than Cecil. It's not like you're going to be relying on ol' Cecil to turn a DP.
   27. Howie Menckel Posted: August 17, 2017 at 01:05 PM (#5515390)
I wish my fantasy site had an option for "minimum 1 inning to count as a game played" or something like that.

mine does - and I am indeed playing Rizzo at middle infield
:)

I have mentioned before that I attended this game below in 1985 [the boxscore from then didn't list how many switches, but one source has it at 11 times - which seems about right. I was in the LF stands, and each side cheered wildly as he waddled back toward "their side." Strawberry hit a grand slam in the first inning, then the Mets went 16 scoreless innings - including 10 straight no-hit innings - as they were outhit, 18-6. Mets won anyway, 5-4.]:

Rusty!

" Staub, who had not played the outfield since June 22, 1983, was shuttling between left field and right field, alternating with Hurdle, depending on the hitter, as Johnson attempted to hide the slow-footed fielder who entered the game in the 12th.

Staub Saves a Run

Staub saved a run in the top of the 18th. Rick Rhoden, a pitcher, pinch-hit for Doug Frobel, an outfielder, with two out and Tunnell on second base. Rhoden hit a fly ball that Staub ran down and caught below his knees near the right-field line.

''That was as fast as I could run,'' said the 41-year-old Staub.
   28. filihok Posted: August 17, 2017 at 01:12 PM (#5515402)
Any enterprising sabermetricians want to guess on the possible benefit to doing this over the course of an entire season? Let's say you had Daniel Murphy (bad) and Josh Harrison (good) starting every day and alternating like this constantly.

Or
Murphy and Rendon?
Rendon is a +4 (per 150 games) in 1400 innings at 2B and +10 (per 150 games) in 3700 innings at 3B
Murphy is a -7 (per 150 games) in 6000 innings at 2B and -3 (per 150 games) in 720 innings at 3B
   29. Bote Man Posted: August 17, 2017 at 01:38 PM (#5515447)
It's hard to argue with useful metrics, but Daniel Murphy makes a handful of plays that most people would term "remarkable", leaping or diving to make a Web Gem type catch, spinning and throwing out runners at first base in a very athletic fashion, and such.

Maybe it's the routine stuff that he can't get to that lowers his defensive value?
   30. PreservedFish Posted: August 17, 2017 at 01:42 PM (#5515451)
Murphy and Rendon?
Rendon is a +4 (per 150 games) in 1400 innings at 2B and +10 (per 150 games) in 3700 innings at 3B
Murphy is a -7 (per 150 games) in 6000 innings at 2B and -3 (per 150 games) in 720 innings at 3B


Sure. I want to know.
   31. Greg Pope Posted: August 17, 2017 at 02:12 PM (#5515487)
I'm one who thinks that rest is overrated in MLB. They're playing baseball, it's not really that strenuous. I think young players should be able to play 162 games without a problem.

But at some point fatigue is a factor. Jogging between second and third an extra 10-15 times every game will have an effect on the players.
   32. PreservedFish Posted: August 17, 2017 at 02:35 PM (#5515508)
You're kidding right? They could offset the accumulated extra light jogging by doing like two fewer laps around the outfield before the game started.
   33. Greg Pope Posted: August 17, 2017 at 02:47 PM (#5515522)
I'm not. I said that I normally think fatigue is over-compensated for. But adding that every single game?
   34. villageidiom Posted: August 17, 2017 at 02:52 PM (#5515529)
villageidiom is our resident rule book searcher
If I'm going to gain some kind of notoriety, I suppose it could have been worse.
   35. Jose is an Absurd Doubles Machine Posted: August 17, 2017 at 03:04 PM (#5515541)
But at some point fatigue is a factor. Jogging between second and third an extra 10-15 times every game will have an effect on the players.


Worst case that's 120 feet 15 times a game? We're talking 1,800 feet per game or an extra third of a mile all done at a casual pace. I'm skeptical that would make a difference.

I think where there could be a concern it's with increased injury likelihood. Positional changes typically show up as indicators of injury due to lack of familiarity. I would think you'd see some of that also some potential communication issues such as on pop ups or in between grounders.
   36. Tom Nawrocki Posted: August 17, 2017 at 03:08 PM (#5515549)
Worst case that's 120 feet 15 times a game? We're talking 1,800 feet per game or an extra third of a mile all done at a casual pace. I'm skeptical that would make a difference.



I can see a fielder who'd shifted five times in an inning feeling a little winded, especially if the batter hits the first pitch.
   37. PreservedFish Posted: August 17, 2017 at 03:10 PM (#5515550)
Please, we ALL know that everyone concerned - umpire, batter, pitcher - will use it as an excuse to drag the goddam thing out anyway. The fielders will be encouraged to mosey along at leisurely paces. It's the only part of this I don't like.
   38. PreservedFish Posted: August 17, 2017 at 03:11 PM (#5515551)
Positional changes typically show up as indicators of injury due to lack of familiarity. I would think you'd see some of that also some potential communication issues such as on pop ups or in between grounders.


Oh my god, listen to yourself. Have you ever watched basketball, football, or soccer? Athletes can handle this.
   39. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: August 17, 2017 at 03:30 PM (#5515580)
Athletes can handle this.

We're not talking about athletes, we're talking about baseball players.
   40. PreservedFish Posted: August 17, 2017 at 04:01 PM (#5515621)
Hey, it might help the Cecil Fielders and Travis d'Arnauds lose some weight.
   41. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: August 17, 2017 at 05:37 PM (#5515730)
Positional changes typically show up as indicators of injury due to lack of familiarity. I would think you'd see some of that also some potential communication issues such as on pop ups or in between grounders.

Oh my god, listen to yourself. Have you ever watched basketball, football, or soccer? Athletes can handle this.

Well, Daniel Murphy himself suffered MCL tears in both 2010 (during a collision on a DP turn) and 2011 (during a collision on a stolen base attempt) after moving from 3B to 2B. The latter wasn't really his fault but there were definitely concerns that he would not be able to stick at the position, not because he couldn't handle it defensively (he was acceptably bad) but because he wouldn't be able to stay on the field playing 2B. Those concerns were obviously misplaced but they seemed legitimate at the time.
   42. Walt Davis Posted: August 18, 2017 at 03:50 AM (#5515968)
I think "scoring" Rizzo as the 2B is silly. The only reason it even comes up is because the rules allow the 1B to have a larger glove and an opposing manager decided to mess with Rizzo. But just because he plays way in on bunts and the 2B moves close to 1B is no reason to clutter up the box score ... not to mention 40 years from now enterprising BBTFers will be listing him among LHT who have played the IF.

Not to mention I believe that the times he lined up there before getting called on the glove thing he's still listed as the 1B. Hernandez used to line up there sometimes and he was still listed as the 1B. (I've never noticed any other 1B do it.)

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