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Thursday, September 24, 2009

TSN: Littman: Jim Rice: Unimpressed by Zack Greinke

Thanks to Poz...the Rice site is down.

I’m no rocket surgeon when it comes to baseball, but there seems to be a consensus among baseball fans who haven’t been lobotomized that Zack Greinke is pretty good at what he does. Some would say impressive. Most would probably just go ahead and say AL Cy Young winner. Jim Rice is having none of this:

  Zack Greinke didn’t really impress me last night. He pitched well and maybe I caught him on a bad night, but to me he didn’t seem dominant. Greinke has may have the lowest ERA in the AL since Pedro Martinez in 2000, but he doesn’t strike me as the dominant force that Pedro was during his statistical peak.

Yes, he’s obviously accumulated these numbers with smoke and mirrors. That intangible “How Jim Rice Feels” column was somehow left out on Baseball Reference.

  Don’t get me wrong, Greinke pitched very effectively but he was not the unhittable beast on the mound that Pedro or Clemens (or even Johan Santana) were during their reign of dominance. He only gave up two hits in 6 innings but struggled with his command and, with 5 strikeouts, it’s not like he was punching tickets up and down the Red Sox lineup.

Of course, I’ll see your five-strikeout game, Mr. Rice, and raise you five double-digit strikeout games thus far this season. Oh, and he’s third in the bigs in strikeouts on the season with 229. Couple that with just 47 walks and I’d say his command is just fine.

  He reminds me of a right-handed Roger Moret. He has that long and lean frame but good speed on his fastball and sporadic command.

I humored Rice and looked up Moret. In his playing days, he was two inches taller and about 20 lbs. lighter than Greinke. At no point did Moret approach Greinke’s strikeout numbers from this season. In fact, his best year, 1974, he had 111 to go with 79 walks. Is that a K/BB ratio that looks anything like what Greinke is sporting this season?

Repoz Posted: September 24, 2009 at 07:06 PM | 72 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: history, red sox, royals

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   1. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 24, 2009 at 07:12 PM (#3331301)
It's nice to see that Jim Rice's skills at analyzing baseball are as poor as his HoF case.
   2. Nasty Nate Posted: September 24, 2009 at 07:14 PM (#3331305)
...that what you fear the most could meet you halfway
   3. Dan Lee prefers good shortstops to great paintings Posted: September 24, 2009 at 07:16 PM (#3331308)
BBTF: Many of the people impressed by Jack Greinke completely unimpressed by Jim Rice
   4. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 24, 2009 at 07:16 PM (#3331309)
He is correct that Greinke right now is much worse than Pedro was at his peak. Or compared to Clemens at his peak.

What this says about Greinke I don't understand - I mean, Whitey Ford and Juan Marichal were also not as dominant as Pedro or Clemens. What a couple of losers.
   5. tfbg9 Posted: September 24, 2009 at 07:16 PM (#3331312)
My Keith Foulke jersey doubles as a Moret.
   6. God Posted: September 24, 2009 at 07:16 PM (#3331311)
God: Unimpressed by Jim Rice.

Edit: Missed the boat on that joke, I see. Four friggin' posts at 3:16 PM ?!
   7. Non-Youkilidian Geometry Posted: September 24, 2009 at 07:17 PM (#3331313)
[H]e doesn’t strike me as the dominant force that Pedro was during his statistical peak.


Since Pedro during his stastical peak was arguably the greatest pitcher of all time, Jim Rice is setting the bar for being "impressed" pretty high.

Edit: Or, what MCoA said in #4. The Coke's on me.
   8. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: September 24, 2009 at 07:19 PM (#3331316)
Don't you see what's going on, even Rice has bought into the whole 'fear' mantra. Greinke isn't feared by anybody.
   9. Alex meets the threshold for granular review Posted: September 24, 2009 at 07:19 PM (#3331319)
Jim Rice is a petulant child.
   10. Misirlou is on hiding to nowhere Posted: September 24, 2009 at 07:25 PM (#3331327)
Jim Rice is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad.
   11. Srul Itza Posted: September 24, 2009 at 07:27 PM (#3331329)
Norman, coordinate.
   12. Repoz Posted: September 24, 2009 at 07:29 PM (#3331333)
Greinke better hope for a solid BBWWA vote...
   13. SteveF Posted: September 24, 2009 at 07:31 PM (#3331335)
Greinke does seem to have his success through his command. At least, the few times I've seen him I've been very impressed by the number of his pitches that end up on the black. But as we're finding out from pitch f/x, success really is about location. And being able to command your fastball like Greinke does (superhumanly well) is a well traveled path to dominance.

Martinez in his prime was just a different animal. Stuff wise he was just off the charts. I still can't figure out how he got that much screwball action on his circle change.
   14. Zac Schmitt Posted: September 24, 2009 at 07:36 PM (#3331340)
I almost feel like Jim Rice and I weren't watching the same game. Like SteveF says above, every time I see Grienke I'm almost shocked by how good his command is. Am I misremembering, or weren't each of his walks pretty close?
   15. The Original SJ Posted: September 24, 2009 at 07:40 PM (#3331349)
It is impossible to like Jim Rice.

Impossible.
   16. Nasty Nate Posted: September 24, 2009 at 07:43 PM (#3331354)
It is impossible to like Jim Rice.

Impossible.


nahh. His tv personality can be like-able, if bland. I know someone who golfed with him recently, and he was likeable in that situation(and could drive the ball a mile).
   17. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 24, 2009 at 07:45 PM (#3331356)
It's actually pretty easy to be a good, likable person while having incorrect opinions about baseball.
   18. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 24, 2009 at 07:46 PM (#3331358)
"He pitched well and maybe I caught him on a bad night, but to me he didn’t seem dominant."

Jim Rice fears nothing but mirrors, and those only because they can show reflections of him.
   19. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: September 24, 2009 at 07:52 PM (#3331361)
It's actually pretty easy to be a good, likable person while having incorrect opinions about baseball.

God, I hope so.
   20. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 24, 2009 at 07:57 PM (#3331363)
On Greinke, I assume this has been said before, but isn't Bret Saberhagen the obvious comparison?

Greinke stuff is very good, but not utterly dominant - what makes him so good is that he commands the ball like he's playing a video game with an improperly tuned physics engine. Reminds very much of Saberhagen.
   21. Walt Davis Posted: September 24, 2009 at 08:07 PM (#3331374)
could drive the ball a mile

Except for the 25% that were bounced right to the SS.
   22. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: September 24, 2009 at 08:11 PM (#3331382)
The odd year Saberhagen.
   23. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: September 24, 2009 at 08:13 PM (#3331388)
"nahh. His tv personality can be like-able, if bland."

He is a complete dud on NESN. Endlessly repeats banalities in a bored voice. In fact, I'd be surprised if any opinion he spouts is actually his own instead of something he heard once.

There's a reason it took forever for Rice to end up affiliated with the Sox again--it's because he's a moron.
   24. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: September 24, 2009 at 08:20 PM (#3331397)
Endlessly repeats banalities in a bored voice.
In Philly, we get this from Gary Matthews except that Matthews has an excited voice that was made for mime.
   25. bfan Posted: September 24, 2009 at 08:24 PM (#3331401)
Can we ask the BBWA to re-vote on Jim Rice?

Dude, you are the luckiest thing alive; you got into the HOF on some bizarre combo of red Sox love and guilt trip; now STFU and enjoy your gift.
   26. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: September 24, 2009 at 08:46 PM (#3331450)
On Greinke, I assume this has been said before, but isn't Bret Saberhagen the obvious comparison?


What about Schilling?
   27. SoSH U at work Posted: September 24, 2009 at 08:52 PM (#3331456)
There's a reason it took forever for Rice to end up affiliated with the Sox again--it's because he's a moron.


Moron or not, he's been affiliated with the Red Sox organization, in one capacity or another, for all but the first three of his post-retirement seasons.
   28. Bob Tufts Posted: September 24, 2009 at 08:53 PM (#3331457)
Rice just should have said "Greinke is not feared, therefore he can't be that good and won't be a HOF player. At least that's what the writers who voted for me last year told me."
   29. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: September 24, 2009 at 08:53 PM (#3331458)
Hrm. I must have blocked him out after he retired.
   30. God Posted: September 24, 2009 at 08:59 PM (#3331466)
He was a hitting coach/hanger-on for a while IIRC. I think most of the players hated him.
   31. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: September 24, 2009 at 09:07 PM (#3331471)
He was a hitting coach/hanger-on for a while IIRC. I think most of the players hated him.


Oh right - wasn't he before Easler?
   32. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: September 24, 2009 at 09:11 PM (#3331475)
I saw a clip of a game where he was hitting coach recently and it looked like he spent most of his time as hitting coach at the post-game spread. He was absolutely enormous.
   33. Gonfalon B. Posted: September 24, 2009 at 09:14 PM (#3331479)
At his fearyfearfear peak in 1978, Jim Rice hit .154 against Ron Guidry, who had the fastball, the curve, and the control. And Rice hit Guidry very well over the course of their careers. 2009 Greinke would have dismantled 1978 Rice.
   34. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: September 24, 2009 at 09:17 PM (#3331483)
Jim Rice's career doesn’t really impress me. He hit well and maybe I caught him on a bad stretch, but to me he didn’t seem dominant. Rice has may have been the AL Most Valuable Player in 1978, but he doesn’t strike me as the dominant force that Ted Williams was during his statistical peak.

Don’t get me wrong, Rice hit very well but he was not the hitting beast at the plate that Bonds or Ruth (or even Joe Dimaggio) were during their reign of dominance. He slugged .502 with 398 home runs, but it’s not like he was drawing tons of walks or playing Gold Glove defense.

He reminds me of a right-handed Ryan Klesko. He has that burly physique but a powerful stroke and defensive limitations.
   35. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 24, 2009 at 09:19 PM (#3331488)
against Ron Guidry, who had the fastball, the curve, and the control

Slight correction, slider not curve.
   36. Gonfalon B. Posted: September 24, 2009 at 09:28 PM (#3331501)
Yeah, my mistake. My brain was already moving on to Greinke.
   37. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: September 24, 2009 at 09:32 PM (#3331504)
Primey to DM.
   38. rconn23 Posted: September 24, 2009 at 09:59 PM (#3331527)
"It's actually pretty easy to be a good, likable person while having incorrect opinions about baseball."

Jim Rice is likable? Really?
   39. sunnyday2 Posted: September 24, 2009 at 10:01 PM (#3331528)
Hoyt Wilhelm wasn't what you'd call dominant. Bum.
   40. God Posted: September 24, 2009 at 10:08 PM (#3331534)
It's actually pretty easy to be a good, likable person while having incorrect opinions about baseball."

I totally agree, but I have to say Jim Rice is about the last person who comes to mind there.
   41. Roy Hobbs of WIFFLE Ball Posted: September 24, 2009 at 10:08 PM (#3331535)
Here's my question: Why would anyone care what Jim Rice's opinion of Zack Greinke is enough to spend even two seconds on Baseball Snark Factory low-blowing him for it? So he's wrong. I'd rather be Jim Rice and wrong about Zack Greinke that the guy that thinks he's awesome for cracking the 200,000th negative comment barrier on Jim "TEH FEAR!!1!!" Rice. Just move on for God's sake. This place is like a broken ####### record.
   42. HGM Posted: September 24, 2009 at 10:10 PM (#3331537)
Yet you're here...complaining about peoples' comments...
   43. Roy Hobbs of WIFFLE Ball Posted: September 24, 2009 at 10:31 PM (#3331548)
Yeah, you're right, and I won't make that mistake again.
   44. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: September 24, 2009 at 10:41 PM (#3331552)
OH MY GOD JIM RICE SHUT THE #### UP
   45. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: September 24, 2009 at 11:00 PM (#3331562)
Here's my question: Why would anyone care what Jim Rice's opinion of Zack Greinke is enough to spend even two seconds on Baseball Snark Factory low-blowing him for it? So he's wrong. I'd rather be Jim Rice and wrong about Zack Greinke that the guy that thinks he's awesome for cracking the 200,000th negative comment barrier on Jim "TEH FEAR!!1!!" Rice. Just move on for God's sake. This place is like a broken ####### record.

Repoz is like our bicameral god voice -- he posts and we react. We have no free will.
   46. CFBF Is A Golden Spider Duck Posted: September 24, 2009 at 11:25 PM (#3331579)

Greinke stuff is very good, but not utterly dominant - what makes him so good is that he commands the ball like he's playing a video game with an improperly tuned physics engine. Reminds very much of Saberhagen.


Maybe we've just seen Greinke in different games, but Zack's stuff seems pretty dominant. Fastball at 95-96 with great movement, knockout slider, excellent 12-6 curve. There's a developing change-up in there too. He's certainly better for being able to place every pitch in every part of the strikezone on any count, but his raw stuff seems top notch.
   47. Dan Lee prefers good shortstops to great paintings Posted: September 24, 2009 at 11:31 PM (#3331582)
Here's my question: Why would anyone care what Jim Rice's opinion of Zack Greinke is enough to spend even two seconds on Baseball Snark Factory low-blowing him for it?

The corollary to that question is why anyone would care what Jim Rice's opinion of Zack Greinke is enough to spend the time to write an article about it. Was Dewey Evans busy? Could nobody contact Dave Winfield or Reggie Smith? No listing in the phone book for Brian Downing?
   48. Willie Mayspedes Posted: September 25, 2009 at 12:11 AM (#3331612)
Here's my question: Why would anyone care what Jim Rice's opinion of Zack Greinke is enough to spend even two seconds on Baseball Snark Factory low-blowing him for it? So he's wrong. I'd rather be Jim Rice and wrong about Zack Greinke that the guy that thinks he's awesome for cracking the 200,000th negative comment barrier on Jim "TEH FEAR!!1!!" Rice. Just move on for God's sake. This place is like a broken ####### record.


Who's the bigger fool the poster or the poster who posts about those posters?

(Or the poster who posts about the posters poster???)
   49. JMPH Posted: September 25, 2009 at 12:15 AM (#3331618)
OH MY GOD JIM RICE SHUT THE #### UP

Short and to the point. Nicely done.
   50. The elusive Robert Denby Posted: September 25, 2009 at 12:31 AM (#3331633)
OH MY GOD JIM RICE SHUT THE #### UP

Yeah. You're in the Hall. Let the next marginal candidate have his chance to say stupid stuff to the media.
   51. frannyzoo Posted: September 25, 2009 at 12:54 AM (#3331660)
He reminds me of a right-handed Ryan Klesko.


is like the Boom Boom Mancini to the Duk Koo Kim of

OH MY GOD JIM RICE SHUT THE #### UP


Winner: Ryan Klesko comparison. Brutal. Deadly. Primey.
   52. Walt Davis Posted: September 25, 2009 at 01:04 AM (#3331678)
I hate to defend Rice, but really all he said was (emphasis added):

Zack Greinke didn’t really impress me last night. He pitched well and maybe I caught him on a bad night, but to me he didn’t seem dominant.

Now, I didn't see the game but I've seen lots of great pitchers pitch unimpressive games, even unimpressive games where they had good results.

Some enterprising snarker should go read the game reports and see what some of the Sox hitters had to say about the unimpressive Greinke that night, then post back here (but only if those comments show up Rice!) :-)
   53. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: September 25, 2009 at 01:30 AM (#3331738)
Let's see. From the Yahoo recap:

“Greinke has everything,” Red Sox manager Terry Francona said. “He has velocity. You look up and you see a fastball that’s 91 and then you see one that’s 97. Then you see a slider, maybe the best slider in the game. I was impressed with his stuff.”

"Red Sox designated hitter David Ortiz endorsed Greinke for the Cy Young."

"Red Sox slugger Jason Bay said Greinke has “Cy Young stuff."
   54. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: September 25, 2009 at 01:33 AM (#3331741)
DM did his homework (or found a good comp list). Klesko has the same adjusted OPS+ as Rice, in the same number of seasons.
   55. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: September 25, 2009 at 01:59 AM (#3331772)
For the record, PASTE is definitely not impressed by Jim Rice.
   56. The District Attorney Posted: September 25, 2009 at 02:01 AM (#3331776)
he was not the unhittable beast on the mound that Pedro or Clemens (or even Johan Santana) were during their reign of dominance... He has that long and lean frame but good speed on his fastball and sporadic command.
What was that Bill James line about turn-of-the-century sportswriters cleaning up players' quotes to make the players "sound like they spent their spare time polishing up articles for Harper's Weekly"? Something like that...
   57. Harold can be a fun sponge Posted: September 25, 2009 at 02:02 AM (#3331777)
...that what you fear the most could meet you halfway

That's two days in a row that Nasty Nate has quoted PJ. I heartily approve. What do you think of the new album?
   58. Shock Posted: September 25, 2009 at 02:08 AM (#3331787)

I hate to defend Rice, but really all he said was (emphasis added):

Zack Greinke didn’t really impress me last night. He pitched well and maybe I caught him on a bad night, but to me he didn’t seem dominant.

Now, I didn't see the game but I've seen lots of great pitchers pitch unimpressive games, even unimpressive games where they had good results.


Agreed.

It's almost refreshing to see someone dare to suggest that someone who had good results might not have actually played that well.
   59. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: September 25, 2009 at 02:35 AM (#3331814)
That's two days in a row that Nasty Nate has quoted PJ. I heartily approve. What do you think of the new album?


Actually he's technically quoting Victoria Williams, right?

You didn't ask me, but I dig most of Backspacer. Took a few listens to get my bearings with it, like pretty much every album they've released since Ten.
   60. Denny Lemaster Cylinder Posted: September 25, 2009 at 03:14 AM (#3331858)
From the intro:

I’m no rocket surgeon when it comes to baseball . . .

I hesitate to being it up because it may be a regular Littman phrase, but did this make anyone else wince? Does Littman ever talk about being a brain scientist, too?

Just wondering . . .
   61. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: September 25, 2009 at 03:25 AM (#3331880)
I know someone who golfed with him recently, and he was likeable in that situation(and could drive the ball a mile).


My cousin ended up going to Big Papi's golf charity before the season began and he described everyone as being pretty great (he got to golf with Pedro, who was the greatest, everyone except for Jim Rice. He and a friend ended up in a minivan with Rice and Torii Hunter. Hunter was very friendly, but Rice seemed to have identify my cousin and his friend as members of he stathead community because, out of nowhere, he started going after them verbally. "Some people think they can use a computer and spreadsheet to understand the game, but we players know better" or some such crap. It was weird since my cousin doesn't give a crap about stats, but he said he suddenly felt like he was part of the Theo Posse. Anyway, you don't have to believe this story and it doesn't make Rice a bad guy in general. Maybe he was in a bad mood that day. Still, think it's interesting given the tension between BTF and Rice.
   62. bookbook Posted: September 25, 2009 at 03:42 AM (#3331897)
In all fairness to Mr. Rice, he had a baseball career that he should rightly be very proud of. And every single member of the hall of the very good believes deep in his heart that he ought to be in cooperstown. It's not really his fault that the voters overestimated him by so much. Nor is it his fault that he's got a vested interest in having disdain for statistical analysis that shows he was far worse than popular estimates of his ability. (Joe Morgan, on the other hand, who is even more venerated by stats than by popular memory... he has no excuse.)
   63. Nasty Nate Posted: September 25, 2009 at 03:44 AM (#3331898)
That's two days in a row that Nasty Nate has quoted PJ. I heartily approve. What do you think of the new album?


what was the other one?

haven't heard the new one yet. Probably buy it this weekend.
   64. Hugh Jorgan Posted: September 25, 2009 at 04:52 AM (#3331923)
Zack Greinke: Unimpressed by Jim Rice
   65. Harold can be a fun sponge Posted: September 25, 2009 at 08:42 AM (#3331974)
what was the other one?

You quoted "Rats" yesterday, or maybe the day before.
   66. Harold can be a fun sponge Posted: September 25, 2009 at 08:45 AM (#3331975)
Actually he's technically quoting Victoria Williams, right?

Hmm, I don't get it. He quoted Crazy Mary. I remember a Victoria Williams song that had a few words in common with that line, but maybe I'm missing something.

You didn't ask me, but I dig most of Backspacer. Took a few listens to get my bearings with it, like pretty much every album they've released since Ten.

Hey, I'm glad you threw in your opinion; I was really asking everyone. I liked it, and also need a few more listens. It's only half an hour, so those listens should be quick.
   67. 33Boots Posted: September 25, 2009 at 09:08 AM (#3331976)
Put him in the corner and pat him on the head. It's no big deal.
   68. Zach Posted: September 25, 2009 at 09:20 AM (#3331977)
It might be that incredible control isn't as obvious as incredible stuff. '99 Pedro had four swing-and-miss pitches; Greinke has one (the slider). But he absolutely murders batters with location. Pedroia's double was the only good swing the Sox got on Greinke all night.
   69. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: September 25, 2009 at 11:28 AM (#3331988)
Anyway, you don't have to believe this story and it doesn't make Rice a bad guy in general. Maybe he was in a bad mood that day. Still, think it's interesting given the tension between BTF and Rice.

I would be surprised if the tension was two-way.
   70. Nasty Nate Posted: September 25, 2009 at 01:34 PM (#3332041)
You quoted "Rats" yesterday, or maybe the day before


ah, now I remember.

'crazy mary' wasnt written by PJ, but they were the first to release it.
   71. The District Attorney Posted: September 25, 2009 at 01:55 PM (#3332064)
Maybe he saw Jack Greinke?
   72. The District Attorney Posted: September 25, 2009 at 02:22 PM (#3332105)
Actually, maybe he did, since the post about Zack isn't there anymore.
   73. 1k5v3L Posted: September 26, 2009 at 02:54 AM (#3333102)
It's actually pretty easy to be a good, likable person while having incorrect opinions about baseball.
You like me. You really really like me.

Jim Rice is dumber than 10 Hall of Famers' dogs.

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