didn't know this was going on. that's a shame, tucson is a cool little town. my g.f. and i took a vacation there last year and it was a lot of fun. but it is kind of quiet.

I interned at the Univ. of Arizona Press in Tucson in the summer of '83 & found it generally preferable to Phoenix & Tempe, where I was going to grad school. Lots of great bookstores back then.

My daughter, son-in-law, and grandson live in the Tucson area. It's far nicer than Phoenix, precisely because it's smaller and quieter, but of course that's exactly why it's been losing all its Spring Training teams to Phoenix.

Tucson also lost its AAA team this year. The D-backs' affiliate moved to Reno, NV.

It's far nicer than Phoenix, precisely because it's smaller and quieter

That is what Scottsdale is, and it is right next to Phoenix, and far, far nicer than Tucson. However, it takes a great deal of money to buy property in Scottsdale. Scottsdale is one of my favorite places on earth; Phoenix is one of my least.

Scottsdale is nice, if you like snobbish, yuppified, soulless places.

I lived in Tucson for 7 years (4 college, 3 working) and can honestly say that the majority of Tucson is a dump. It's a great place if you're college age, but beyond that I wouldn't recommend others to live there. Tucson people think of themselves as living in a small town, but there are over half million people living in the city and over 1 million in the county. It's a big city that doesn't have any big city charm or small city charm.

I went to New Mexico State in Las Cruces and we would roadtrip every year to Tucson, which I always liked and every time I thought to myself why didn't I apply to the U. of Arizona.

I visited Tucson once. It was mostly various shades of brown. I'm not a big fan of brown.

I killed a man in Tucson.

Just to watch him die?

I like brown after growing up in the desert. I found it hard to adjust when I went to grad school in the South to all the green. Growing up, we had xeroscaped our lawn so it was lava rocks.

Just to watch him die?

Why be active about this? Just wait around and wait for some of the old people to keel over!

You tell me God.

[Takes drag of cigarette.]

You tell me.

Las Cruces. Hmm. Now I need me some Blake's Lotaburger.

Scottsdale is many things -- lacking a soul is certainly not one of them. Yuppies are harmless -- anyone made anxious by yuppies probably have problems with their own shadow.

Maybe the fact that they're harmless is the problem. I'd rather live somewhere where the people are interesting.

[Exhales]

Come to my town.

That was a nice, melancholy article.

I saw my last Spring Training game in Tucson last Monday; it's hard to imagine spring in Tucson without baseball. As for the city itself, if you find the desert beautiful and appreciate quiet, it's a wonderful place to live. Cost of living is absurdly low, the desert museum is wonderful, and there are some amazing hikes ranging from five to twenty miles. I always enjoyed hiking around one of the better-known rehab clinics near the foothills. And it's not a bad place to live if you like college basketball.

I was disappointed to discover that TEP had lost the Sidewinders; it's not much more than clean and functional, but there are few better ways to spend a summer night than sitting out watching a game in Tucson. At least they have an indy league in there now.

That is what Scottsdale is, and it is right next to Phoenix, and far, far nicer than Tucson.

Depends upon one's definition of "nice," of course. Scottsdale is vastly richer than Tucson. But I'll take Tucson any day of the week.

there are few better ways to spend a summer night than sitting out watching a game in Tucson.

Oh so true.

At least they have an indy league in there now.

They do! I caught a game there last summer with my son-in-law and a couple of his brothers. I look forward to a few years from now, when my grandson will be joining us as well.

Depends upon one's definition of "nice," of course.

Of course. As far as the baseball experience goes though, Scottsdale trumps Tucson very soundly. Better stadium, better atmosphere (both in ST and AAA before the D-Backs existed), better amenities in the stadium, better places around the stadium, and the AFL.

>>>Scottsdale is vastly richer <<<<

Scottsdale is much more than just money, shopping, and nice houses, which is something many people don't recognize.

My daughter, son-in-law, and grandson live in the Tucson area. It's far nicer than Phoenix, precisely because it's smaller and quieter, but of course that's exactly why it's been losing all its Spring Training teams to Phoenix.

I'm in Tucson frequently visiting family. It's quiet, which is part of its appeal to me.

I've been to spring training games in Scottsdale. A bit of a hike from Tucson, but not that bad, and the experience there is nice. If I-10 were a typical northeast highway, as I'm used to, the drive would be enjoyable, but instead it's a fast, straight two-lane highway with no scenery and packed with big trucks.

Tucson still has independent league teams. Very quiet games, but not bad if you just want to see some baseball played.

I lived in Tucson for 7 years (4 college, 3 working) and can honestly say that the majority of Tucson is a dump.

Like any area, it has its nice spots.

As for the city itself, if you find the desert beautiful and appreciate quiet, it's a wonderful place to live. Cost of living is absurdly low, the desert museum is wonderful, and there are some amazing hikes ranging from five to twenty miles.

Driving up to Mt. Lemmon is nice also. And there are plenty of nice restaurants and such.

And a number of casinos...

Maybe the fact that they're harmless is the problem. I'd rather live somewhere where the people are interesting.

Might I recommend Memphis?

If I-10 were a typical northeast highway, as I'm used to, the drive would be enjoyable, but instead it's a fast, straight two-lane highway with no scenery and packed with big trucks.

Then you'd just love I-5 from the Grapevine to Tracy.

FWIW (as Neyer noted today), Tuscon is likely (well, at least not unlikely) to temporarily get the Beavers once they vacate PGE Park.

Might I recommend Memphis?

Are Lawler and Kaufmann still going at it?

I wouldn't recommend others to live there. Tucson people think of themselves as living in a small town, but there are over half million people living in the city and over 1 million in the county. It's a big city that doesn't have any big city charm or small city charm.

that's too harsh. we had lots of fun there. as someone mentioned upthread, the desert museum is awesome, and the hiking is great. we almost killed ourselves hiking ventana canyon (extremely hot day, not enough water in our packs) but it was glorious. had a really cool steak dinner at mcmahon's in the piano bar. stuff like that.
i took a bunch of pics on our trip and put them up on my facebook page.

the desert museum is awesome, and the hiking is great. we almost killed ourselves hiking ventana canyon (extremely hot day, not enough water in our packs) but it was glorious.

One of my son-in-law's brothers (what does that make him -- my nephew-in-law?) used to work at the Desert Museum. It's wonderful.

And the Tucson area truly is a hiker's paradise. The mountains to both the east and west of Tucson (each of which includes a segment of Saguaro National Park) are absolutely riddled with amazing hikes.

And a terrific, very-steep-but-very-rewarding peak bag is Picacho Peak, which towers over the Red Rock development where my daughter & family live.

Lot of good stuff within an hour's drive too. The aforementioned Saguaro National Park, Cochise Stronghold, Bisbee, Tombstone.

Plus Tucson also has (I think) America's easternmost In 'n' Out Burger location. That's gotta count for something.

Bisbee, Tombstone.

Tombstone is a silly tourist trap, but OTOH if you have a 9-year-old boy to entertain it might be paradise. Bisbee is terrific.

On Tuesday, speaking to mlb.com, the D'backs' first manager, Buck Showalter, referred to the exit of spring training from TEP as "a waste."

"When that place opened," he said, "it was the Taj Mahal."

The problem with Buck's quote is that half a dozen Taj Mahals have been built in the decade+ since. TEP now has nothing to distinguish it as a facility from the newer parks, so teams aren't losing anything by relocating to the Valley except the I-10 bus trips. There's no reason anyone would make a trip from Phoenix to check it out unless you had other things to do around Tucson (other posters have already mentioned some of the attractions).

Not mentioned in this article is that Arizona's Spring Training agency, essentially charged to keep teams in state and lure teams from Florida, put many resources into Valley-based building projects. It succeeded, but Tucsonans are rightly chuffed about the state creating an agency that doomed any effort to keep MLB in town. Even if Tucson had built TEP in downtown instead of butt-ugly South Tucson, they would've lost the Cactus League.

mmm... in n out burger ...

the titan missile museum is also a must see. and the san xavier del bac mission.

Part of Tombstone is a silly tourist trap. But it's a genuine historic site, and there's some good stuff there.

Part of Bisbee is a silly tourist trap, too, for that matter, but for the most part it's great. I know why Lynn Bracken wanted to go back there.

I lived in Tucson for 7 years (4 college, 3 working) and can honestly say that the majority of Tucson is a dump.

Zoning seems to be nonexistent there. But I loved going there for ST. Relaxing, cheap, plenty to do over 4-5 days, and great restaurants/bars to revisit.

Anyone complaining that Tuscon is a dump has never been to Muncie, IN.

Or Odessa, Texas.

Anyone complaining that Tuscon is a dump has never been to Muncie, IN

Or Barstow, CA. Or Utica, NY. Or Ely, NV. Or Artesia, NM.

Might I recommend Memphis?

Are Lawler and Kaufmann still going at it?

Sadly no, but my former neighbor considered it a point of loud-mouthed pride that Lawler backed down from a bar fight with him. This fellow was built like a Ziplock bag full of clam chowder, I'm sure Jerry the King was really intimidated.

Oddly enough I have been to Odessa, Barstow, Utica and Artesia. Evidently my career has taken me to some really crappy places.

Oddly enough I have been to Odessa, Barstow, Utica and Artesia.

How in the world have you missed Ely?

I have yet to be considered for any jobs in Nevada. But my career is still young.

Fight on, fight on, dear old Muncie!
Fight on, hoist the gold and blue!
You'll be tattered, torn, and hurting,
Once the Munce is done with you!
Go... Eagles!

But my career is still young.

Based on the places you've visited on business so far, I'm guessing you must be a crime scene investigator, specializing in meth lab stabbings.

Tombstone is a silly tourist trap,

Yes, but it's worth seeing once. After that... not so much.

Tucson is a great town, and will remain such after today. It's just a lousy place for spring training baseball. Next year the Cactus league stadiums will all be less than 45 minutes apart, and that is huge for the teams shuttling players, scouts and coaches around, not to mention for the fans.

Tucson dodge a bullet not having to pour scarce resources into an investment as lousy as a spring training facility that is barely used 11/12 months a year, instead Tucson hotels will still be filled with money spending tourists in February, they'll just be golfers, hikers, and conventioneers instead of baseball fans. The hotels won't make quite as much, but they'll still do well and taxpayers won't get stuck subsidizing a playpen for millionaires who take all the money out of town.

The new Diamondback/Rockie stadium is in an incredibly convenient location in mid-Scottsdale on the 101. 30 minutes from most of Phoenix, 15 minutes from most of Scottsdale, and just across the freeway from a large luxury hotel/casino the tribe is finishing (next month) next to Talking Stick Golf Course.

You know another nice place to hike? Scottsdale. It's surrounded by parks and preserves.

I am a historian who has interviewed at some out of way schools. And to top it off, my ex-wife and my kids live in Odessa which is bleak as hell, and being a native of New Mexico, I have been to Artesia, on my way to Hobbs. Which is as bad of a trip as it sounds.

At least Utica has the Saranac brewery, where the finest root beer in the world is brewed.

Yes, but it's worth seeing once. After that... not so much.

Concur.

I have been to Artesia, on my way to Hobbs. Which is as bad of a trip as it sounds.

Yeah, you need to turn that into a bleak and mournful country song.

The highlight of trip is going through Lovington, home of Brian Urlacher.

Tucson is a great town, and will remain such after today. It's just a lousy place for spring training baseball. Next year the Cactus league stadiums will all be less than 45 minutes apart, and that is huge for the teams shuttling players, scouts and coaches around, not to mention for the fans.

Tucson dodge a bullet not having to pour scarce resources into an investment as lousy as a spring training facility that is barely used 11/12 months a year, instead Tucson hotels will still be filled with money spending tourists in February, they'll just be golfers, hikers, and conventioneers instead of baseball fans. The hotels won't make quite as much, but they'll still do well and taxpayers won't get stuck subsidizing a playpen for millionaires who take all the money out of town.

All true.

You know another nice place to hike? Scottsdale. It's surrounded by parks and preserves.

Certainly true. And Taliesin West is a must-must see.

The highlight of trip is going through Lovington, home of Brian Urlacher.

Well, see, all you need to do is think of something that rhymes with "Urlacher," and you got one verse just about written.

subsidizing a playpen for millionaires who take all the money out of town.

You don't think 100-odd well-to-do MLB players spend any money in bars and restaurants during the 45 days of spring training?

I lived in Tucson for 7 years (4 college, 3 working) and can honestly say that the majority of Tucson is a dump.

The dump is more interesting than most, at least in terms of research on it.

At least Utica has the Saranac brewery, where the finest root beer in the world is brewed.

At the risk of blasphemy, have you not been to Wisconsin lately?

/Sprechered

A big problem with TEP was not that it was located in Tucson, but its location in Tucson - on the far SE side, near nothing.
Had the facility been built more toward the Phoenix side, in Marana or Oro Valley, that would have cut 30 minutes off the drive.
I attended UofA for 2-1/2 years and my parents live on the north side - put me down as "Tucson - nice place to visit but I wouldn't want to live there." To be clearer, I didn't want to live there.

Had the facility been built more toward the Phoenix side, in Marana or Oro Valley, that would have cut 30 minutes off the drive.

Sure, but as has been pointed out in several posts in this thread, Spring Training in Tucson was doomed by far more systemic reasons than the location of TEP.

You don't think 100-odd well-to-do MLB players spend any money in bars and restaurants during the 45 days of spring training?

Yes, they spend about .0001% of their salaries in Tucson, probably not much more per person than a typical golf tourist. Certainly not enough to be worth spending $50M or $100M of taxpayer money to keep in town.

At the risk of blasphemy, have you not been to Wisconsin lately?

/Sprechered

Beat me to it.

The impact on the local economy is far more than what the players spend. I was at the final game at Hi Corbett today, and the Rockies program had a list of all the support staff and their favorite things to do in Tucson. Lots of outdoor activities and restaurants. Many, many mentions of restaurants. On top of that, the stands are packed with visitors. The PA guy at the Brewers-Rockies game in early March asked for applause from people from Wisconsin, then Colorado, then Tucson. The Tucson applause was by far the smallest. Insignificant by comparison. Yes, Spring Training brought thousands of visitors to Tucson every year, and now that's not going to happen any more.

Tucson let the White Sox walk early for a mere $5 million. It was only this week that the local sports authority acknowledged everything they'd "learned" in this whole process. But now it's too late. The City of Tucson should have been bringing a fourth team to town rather than letting the existing teams leave. Nobody complained about the 2-hour drive when there were like 6 teams in Phoenix and 3 in Tucson. Florida teams are scattered all over the state from Orlando to Miami. When do we ever hear about their awful bus rides? All the supposed problems are empty. It's a failure of local leadership, and a symptom of a political power structure that makes everything revolve around Maricopa County. Tucsonans certainly deserve some of the blame, too. You can't get us to support anything beyond U of A sports. But the town was totally jobbed on TEP and still owes tons of money on the bond issue.

Anyway, it's gratifying to see so many comments on my article submission. And there's some noise being made that Japanese teams are going to train here next year, which would be cool. But I think it's really a shame that Tucson let MLB go without a fight. Now I have to drive 2 hours (AND TWO HOURS BACK!) to see Spring Training baseball.....

Tucson also has (I think) America's easternmost In 'n' Out Burger location

I don't know if it's the easternmost In 'N' Out, but it is (shockingly) the top performing store in the chain.

The City of Tucson should have been bringing a fourth team to town rather than letting the existing teams leave.

How, exactly, were they supposed to do that?

Nobody complained about the 2-hour drive when there were like 6 teams in Phoenix and 3 in Tucson.

Because, when those were the dynamics, the drive wasn't so relatively significant as it became when there were, what, 14 teams (or whatever it is) in Phoenix and 2 in Tucson. That kind of matters.

Florida teams are scattered all over the state from Orlando to Miami. When do we ever hear about their awful bus rides?

We would, as soon as nearly all of the teams but a couple were located within a 45-minute radius.

I was out in "Phoenix" for the 2008 Giants-Patriots Super Bowl.
Had traveled there on business many times before, dating back to the early 1990s, but my unscientific sense was that the vague Phoenix downtown had now given up entirely (caveat: event weeks are not dispositive).

For an event like that, the only life vibe anywhere was in nearby Scottsdale, which was (seemed for the week to a tourist anyway) reasonably genuine.

The game and the NFL Experience itself was held in Glendale.
Enough westerners here who could better describe that venue.
What did it look like 10 years ago?

Anyone complaining that Tuscon is a dump has never been to Muncie, IN

Or Barstow, CA. Or Utica, NY. Or Ely, NV. Or Artesia, NM.

No such listing is complete without Lordsburg, N.M. Or, as I unlovingly think of it, "Lurksville" or "Innsmouth West."

If I-10 were a typical northeast highway, as I'm used to, the drive would be enjoyable, but instead it's a fast, straight two-lane highway with no scenery and packed with big trucks.

Being used to northeast highways, I enjoyed I-10. Took two trips down to Tucson, one for the Rockies and one for the D-Backs this year. Seeing cacti is a novelty for me. If I did it more often I could see the trip getting old.

The City of Tucson should have been bringing a fourth team to town rather than letting the existing teams leave.

How, exactly, were they supposed to do that?

I don't understand the question. Is there something special about Tucson that keeps teams from wanting to locate there? Casino money keeps building the new casinos--there is casino money in Pima County, too.

Is there something special about Tucson that keeps teams from wanting to locate there?

It isn't anything special about Tucson. It's something extremely special about the sprawling Phoenix megalopolis, which thanks to the taxpayer-subsidized stadium-building frenzy of the past several years has provided an environment in which the entire Cactus League (even expanding as it is) can be accomodated without any team having to take the long bus ride betweeen Phoenix and Tucson. How, exactly, was the City of Tucson supposed to successfully compete against that?

No such listing is complete without Lordsburg, N.M. Or, as I unlovingly think of it, "Lurksville" or "Innsmouth West."

Yeah, Lordsburg's pretty special. Another garden spot is Pecos, Texas.

Another garden spot is Pecos, Texas

Pecos occupies a ... shall we say ... special place in my heart. While we were driving back to Tempe from SW Arkansas after my mother's funeral in 3/84, our car ran out of gas about 7 miles from Pecos around 2 a.m. We trudged about halfway there along I-20 in strikingly windy, cold conditions before some kind Asian guy who didn't speak English gave us a ride to a gas station. For awhile there, I was thinking that my tombstone should read, "I knew I should've stopped in Monahans."

(In my defense, we'd had the car -- a useless 1980-or-so Renault LeCar that my future ex ended up giving to a co-worker -- for only a couple of months, & despite what the gas gauge said I knew damned well that the only way the fuel level could really be that low was if our mileage per gallon had somehow suddenly dipped by something like 25 percent ... That should've taught me the true value of statistics, I suppose.)

I haven't run out of gas since, even though I habitually drive to pretty much the last drop, to the extent that the warning light on my gas gauge burned out about 6 months ago after only 80,000 miles or so.

Being used to northeast highways, I enjoyed I-10. Took two trips down to Tucson, one for the Rockies and one for the D-Backs this year. Seeing cacti is a novelty for me. If I did it more often I could see the trip getting old.

Perhaps I'm a bit biased against I-10 since my sister almost died on that highway a couple years ago. She was driving in an Eddie Bauer small SUV and her car suddenly flipped over -- literally went airborn at 65mph and flipped onto its roof like a turtle. She slid for several feet before the car finally came to a stop. As she was sliding, the roof of the car was collapsing underneath her, but her seatbelt kept her suspended upside down. Her head ended up maybe an inch or two from the ground, if that. She felt the ground pulling on her hair.

She ended up walking away from the wreck, a debris field left in her wake, as everything else in the car got sucked out. After the car came to a stop she released her seatbelt and fell down to the roof. Had she not been wearing the seatbelt it would have been bad news. Even as it was, everything had to work perfectly for her to make it out of there unscathed (the car stayed on the road, didn't smash into other cars, the roof held just enough, she was just short enough, etc.).

Don't know why the car flipped. She had all the windows open including the skylight, so I've wondered whether the car essentially turned into a sail. Like when those high speed boats go airborn.

Anyway, naturally I blame I-10 for this :-)

The game and the NFL Experience itself was held in Glendale.
Enough westerners here who could better describe that venue.
What did it look like 10 years ago?

The Cardinals Stadium area? Farmland or desert, most likely, surrounded by the same. Just like all the other Phx megalopolis sports facility projects AzSTA has helped fund.

Phoenix downtown is not great, but it is better than it used to be, partly but not entirely due to the two big-time sports facilities there (BOB, US Airways Arena). A light-rail system now links it north to uptown Phoenix and east to Tempe without needing a car.

On the downside, the economy is worse than 10 years ago thanks to its dependence on construction, real estate, and tourist dollars.